My opinion of abortion has changed...

http://www.channel4.com/health/micro...skin_fell_off/

This was a very moving documentary I watched last night. There was a part where Mr Kennedy's Mother changed his bandages. This would have to be done for him weekly. The intense pain he would go through was umbearable to watch. His mother said, "If I had known that my son would have gone through all this pain in suffering for his entire life I would have terminated the pregnancy, and not have felt any guilt." This really made me think. Now they can test a baby in utero for this affliction that Jonny suffered for 36 years (his entire life). His mother described how as a baby, everytime she would hold Jonny, it would cause painful blisters. It was hard to watch this, but I forced myself to watch it all the way through. I figured if this man could endure almost four decades of pain, I should have enough respect for him to watch a 1 hour documentary about his last months on Earth. It was very moving...
I still don't believe abortion when its used as birth control, partial birth abortion, or many other forms. But if a child is going to live an agonizing life of pain like Jonny did, I could understand the termination. At the same time, I was thankful that Jonny did live and I believe he made a huge contribution through his suffering for all of us. So, once again, it conflicts me on whether abortion is wrong or right. God Bless you Jonny, I pray that you have found peace and happiness, free from the pain and hurt you lived through in this life. ~:grouphug:

I think that abortion is a very personal decision. Each woman must make that call on her own, not society. Personally I don't think it is a great option, but who I'm I to tell others how to live there lives.

You must then be pro-euthanasia and suicide, Dave

Nothing wrong with that. It was the best thing we did for our pets. They were suffering horribely. For a human it's even more obivous since they can make the choice themselves.

When we say something is wrong we are making a generalization.
Something can be wrong, but not wrong in all circumstances.
Murder and stealing are wrong but not always.
Unless you are a fanatic there will always be occasions when general rules do not apply to particular cases.
We must use common sense and decency when applying rules to any situation.
IMO abortion as a general rule is wrong

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

When we say something is wrong we are making a generalization.
Something can be wrong, but not wrong in all circumstances.
Murder and stealing are wrong but not always.
Unless you are a fanatic there will always be occasions when general rules do not apply to particular cases.
We must use common sense and decency when applying rules to any situation.
IMO abortion as a general rule is wrong

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i agree with this statement.
very much so.

exceptions to rules or emotional hostage taking should not be used as cause for generalization

Dave you continue to amaze me, in a very positive way.

Hopefully the rest of the Backroom will take this as the reflective act that it is, and not degrade it with their arguments about why their position on this tremendously difficult issue is the right position.

And I'm with you in my sympathy for Jonny and his family, and all those who suffer from this terribel syndrome.

Thanks for posting this.

ichi :bow:

I watched that program a few months back Dave, honestly one of the most moving things Ive ever seen.

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Originally Posted by sharrukin

Unless you are a fanatic there will always be occasions when general rules do not apply to particular cases.

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Huh? I thought fanatics were perfectly capable of disregarding rules in particular cases, such as promoting their particular agenda. For example the "abortion is murder" fanatics that think it's somehow OK to murder people working at abortion clinics. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Spetulhu

Huh? I thought fanatics were perfectly capable of disregarding rules in particular cases, such as promoting their particular agenda. For example the "abortion is murder" fanatics that think it's somehow OK to murder people working at abortion clinics. :dizzy2:

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Well, you have a point as fanatics are so certain of the justice of their cause that they do not believe that common sense and basic decency apply to them. They feel they are on a higher mission (for God, The People, Democracy, etc) and sacrifices must be made!

Its always sad to see someone switch to a pro-choice stance, but defections from one side to the other are nothing new. :no:

However, through an ever more effective fight against propaganda, the pro-life movement has made great strides over the years and we will succeed in ending abortion in this nation sometime soon.

So you are pro government controlling your breeding?

Howabout if they decide they need to castrate you?

I have always stated that men can decide on abortion outside their own marriage when women can decide on when men get vascetomies.

BTW on an evolutionary point of view... don't liberals (supposedly) have more abortions therefore this means that they are dying out?

Surely the conservative option to get rid of liberals would be to open more abortion clinics... :dizzy2:

But liberalism and conservatism are political viewpoints.

In fact, children often have the tendency to either follow their parents' beliefs blindly or break from their parents' beliefs blindly. So it is like 50/50 that a conservative's son/daughter will turn either conservative like their parent or liberal againts their parents.

You're saying like these two are different species...

Both liberalism and conservatism are in our blood, by the way. We always wants to be free and do what we want, when we want; and become idealistic (liberal) and yet we always want things to go our way, to have regulations, to preserve your tradition, etc; with is "conservative."

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

But liberalism and conservatism are political viewpoints.

In fact, children often have the tendency to either follow their parents' beliefs blindly or break from their parents' beliefs blindly. So it is like 50/50 that a conservative's son/daughter will turn either conservative like their parent or liberal againts their parents.

You're saying like these two are different species...

Both liberalism and conservatism are in our blood, by the way. We always wants to be free and do what we want, when we want; and become idealistic (liberal) and yet we always want things to go our way, to have regulations, to preserve your tradition, etc; with is "conservative."

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fair post
but are "ideals" distinctly liberal?

The real subject on abortion has been treated on law science since centuries. From that i could say that abortion existed a long period only because the government did what a rational state cannot do, allow religion to mess with politics. But now in some countries, like here, abortion is maintained with the excuse of "for the sake of humanity". This depends on your point of view, of what is humanity? What natural signs of humanity can be seen in a person subject to the laws? So defining (wich may seem arbitrary) a period in wich the fertilazed ovul becames finally an human is definitive to the matter. If one decides that 3 months are sufficient then after the 3 months one cannot make a legal abortion, of course with the exception being if the mather may suffer serious damage if the growing continues of if she haves the son. So as someone said above i think that taking extremes in this matters is always wrong.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

But if a child is going to live an agonizing life of pain like Jonny did, I could understand the termination.

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you can not "abort" or "terminate" a baby. only murder one.

and no one has the moral right to decide who is worthy to be murdered, and who is not. if Jonny really had such an agonizing life, then he could have killed his own self if he chose to do so. he is the only one who has the moral right to dictate if he wants to die or not.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

you can not "abort" or "terminate" a baby. only murder one.

and no one has the moral right to decide who is worthy to be murdered, and who is not. if Jonny really had such an agonizing life, then he could have killed his own self if he chose to do so. he is the only one who has the moral right to dictate if he wants to die or not.

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Sometimes the beings cannot dicide for themselves so they must be assisted. You're right about that only one has the right to take such a determination on our own life, but people in extreme pain, in vegetal state or a baby have no capacity to decide for themselves, so compassion has to be the rule here. Also think on the tutors of the incapacitated (when it's of such grade) that must take care of him because nobody can do it, spend money (it may seem cruel, but i think it's more cruel to keep that pointless life in pain) and can't go back to their lives normally or superate the problem and make them suffer too. The consentiment must be presumed in certain cases of such grade that the most compasive way to take is the one of termination of life.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Its always sad to see someone switch to a pro-choice stance, but defections from one side to the other are nothing new. :no:

However, through an ever more effective fight against propaganda, the pro-life movement has made great strides over the years and we will succeed in ending abortion in this nation sometime soon.

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There are always special cases.

Considering this instance, I agree. And considering christianity, everyone should be aborted. After all, if your children might go to hell, then why have them?

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Originally Posted by ichi

Dave you continue to amaze me, in a very positive way.

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Yeah, well, for some reason I am not amazed at all. Dave, you have a big mouth as well as a big heart (they're still looking for your brains of course) and even though I am not a Christian I can usually subscribe to most of your prayers -- including the above. I'm still confused about the issue myself. There is no easy or clear-cut answer to all the questions involved. You are right to say that even Johnny's life has had a purpose. That is true wisdom.
:bow:

P.S. Where did you steal it?

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Originally Posted by Navaros

you can not "abort" or "terminate" a baby. only murder one.

and no one has the moral right to decide who is worthy to be murdered, and who is not. if Jonny really had such an agonizing life, then he could have killed his own self if he chose to do so. he is the only one who has the moral right to dictate if he wants to die or not.

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A question here, doesn't comitting suecide automatically condemn you to hell, thus being a very immoral act?

I wonder what Johnny Kennedy would have said had he been asked whether he should have been aborted. "The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off" is a very moving documentary. Prior to his death in 2003, Johnny was eloquent about his ordeal, living with the condition and nearly constant pain for 36 years. Among some of his other statements, he said things like "we are put on this earth to do more than just live." Did he suffer in his short life? Absolutely. Did he regret the suffering at times? Absolutely. But he also lived his life to the fullest extent of which he was capable and maintained an amazing sense of humor in the face of it all. He even requested that a Heinz beans logo be placed on his coffin, for no other reason than he wanted people at his funeral to nudge each other and ask why, stating "at least it'll get them talking!"

A brave and courageous man. A fine example of why everyone deserves the right to live.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

A question here, doesn't comitting suecide automatically condemn you to hell, thus being a very immoral act?

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Was thinking the same thing, if we know someone would be born and live in agony and pain the rest of his life, we have to - if following conservative and religius rule - let him be born and then refuse him the right to take his own life and spend the rest of his life in agony.

This god fella is so deliciusly evil.

All power to the mother I say!

Agreed. Should someone so choose, then they should have the right to die as well as the right to live.

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Originally Posted by Lazul

Was thinking the same thing, if we know someone would be born and live in agony and pain the rest of his life, we have to - if following conservative and religius rule - let him be born and then refuse him the right to take his own life and spend the rest of his life in agony.

This god fella is so deliciusly evil.

All power to the mother I say!

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but you must remember - this guy HASN'T killed himself
not even once in his entire 36 years

obviously he didn't want to die

but some of you claim that he shouldn't be here

i am horribly disturbed by this

my brother and sister are adopted
their mother was a single, poor and impoverished woman on serious amounts of drugs

people have let slip to me that those types of children shouldn't even be allowed to be born
reject the fact that those kids experience more joy from life than myself
some people are so self interested that their empathy is warped into righteous pity of those with serious handicaps.

Those people don't need your pity
and they certainly don't need you to decide that their life isn't worth living
because it obviously is to most of the people that we condemn out of hand

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my brother and sister are adopted
their mother was a single, poor and impoverished woman on serious amounts of drugs

people have let slip to me that those types of children shouldn't even be allowed to be born

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By coincidence this is relevant to something I was reading on the tube this morning. I have just started "Freakonomics" by Stephen Levitt, which is a very well reviewed application of economics to bits of daily life (as an example, one chapter is called "why drug dealers still live with their moms"). His opening bid was to ask why crime in the states fell from 1995, when everyone was predicting it would rise. His answer? Roe v Wade. (Some) children from backgrounds which were high risk for crime were being aborted.

He might be right (although a corrolation is not causation as far as I remember). And he wasn't advocating this as a good thing, simply pointing it out. But, even from my broadly pro-choice background, I thought this was pretty sick.

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and no one has the moral right to decide who is worthy to be murdered, and who is not. if Jonny really had such an agonizing life, then he could have killed his own self if he chose to do so. he is the only one who has the moral right to dictate if he wants to die or not.

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For once , and I think it is the first time ever, Navaros I agree with you. If Jonny did not wish to commit suicide it certainly does seems to undermine the argument that he should have been aborted for his own good. Of course Nav you, unlike me, are obliged to see suicide as an act of despair condemning someone to eternal damnation but that doesn't undo your logic.

Had Jonny been brain damaged as well as in pain you would have been in more difficulty.

Good for you Dave. It shows you're thinking honestly about these things.

I myself have gone back and forth on the issue of capital punishment several times in my life. Like abortion, it is one of the most difficult issues of our times. On abortion, although I am still pro-choice, I have a lot of sympathy for those who are pro-life. I can understand why they believe what they believe and how horrible our present laws must seem to them.

Good luck to you.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

I wonder what Johnny Kennedy would have said had he been asked whether he should have been aborted. "The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off" is a very moving documentary. Prior to his death in 2003, Johnny was eloquent about his ordeal, living with the condition and nearly constant pain for 36 years. Among some of his other statements, he said things like "we are put on this earth to do more than just live." Did he suffer in his short life? Absolutely. Did he regret the suffering at times? Absolutely. But he also lived his life to the fullest extent of which he was capable and maintained an amazing sense of humor in the face of it all. He even requested that a Heinz beans logo be placed on his coffin, for no other reason than he wanted people at his funeral to nudge each other and ask why, stating "at least it'll get them talking!"

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Well said, that is kind of my point.

I do believe we are here for a purpose. I wouldn't say that I'm "pro-choice". But there are definitely circumstances that are difficult to decide. Jonny was in intense pain for his ENTIRE life. But at the same time, his life gave the condition a face and his suffering will help others afflicted by this condition. The part where his mother said that if there was a test back when she was pregnant then she would have aborted him really affected me. She didn't say what she said because she wanted to get out her responsibility to her child, or saying anything political, or giving the "its my body, I'll do what I want with it" arguement, she said it because she has tried to care for her child for 36 years and has been there in his constant pain...

Panzer, I have not left the Pro life movement, but i have softened my stance. I believe that we are all here for a reason, but at the same time, I'm not the judge or jury for those that abort when its done for a reason and not for birth control. If you had seen this documentary I think that you could see my conflict I'm feeling within myself.

God forgive me if I'm wrong about this internal struggle...

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

but you must remember - this guy HASN'T killed himself
not even once in his entire 36 years

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Heh didnt know one could do it Twice! ~;) Dont worry I get your point

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

obviously he didn't want to die

but some of you claim that he shouldn't be here

i am horribly disturbed by this

my brother and sister are adopted
their mother was a single, poor and impoverished woman on serious amounts of drugs

people have let slip to me that those types of children shouldn't even be allowed to be born
reject the fact that those kids experience more joy from life than myself
some people are so self interested that their empathy is warped into righteous pity of those with serious handicaps.

Those people don't need your pity
and they certainly don't need you to decide that their life isn't worth living
because it obviously is to most of the people that we condemn out of hand

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I dont see what your brither and sister has to do with this?

What I was arguing for is that if we can see in the baby that it will suffer the rest of its life, the mother should have the rights to decide.
I didnt mean that people with drugproblems has to make abortions by law or anything.
I agree that life can be wonderfull even if your born in to missery, but there are cases where I feel that a baby shouldnt be born; for example Rape.

Ah, it is such a shame that such a horrible disease would share an acronym with such a good cause.

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Originally Posted by Lazul

Heh didnt know one could do it Twice! ~;) Dont worry I get your point




I dont see what your brither and sister has to do with this?

What I was arguing for is that if we can see in the baby that it will suffer the rest of its life, the mother should have the rights to decide.
I didnt mean that people with drugproblems has to make abortions by law or anything.
I agree that life can be wonderfull even if your born in to missery, but there are cases where I feel that a baby shouldnt be born; for example Rape.

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what i meant was that the people that you think may not enjoy life can end up enjoying it the most - and the opposite can also be true.

i've been a fairly miserable kid since i can remember

i've always had so much and been pretty gifted at whatever i tried
yet everyday i think about killing myself at least on the hour
i have no drive, ambition or real will to live and i believe that no matter what i do it doesn't matter

always have

i know some people who are deformed and in wheelchairs who i envy for their optimism and happiness. the difference is outlook - not situation
maybe they would be happier in my situation, but i doubt it

sometimes an accelerated need to cope actually benefits the mind and body - instead of being born a prissy little lord fauntleroy like me



PS - i agree that rape is a seriously difficult problem as far as my ethics go.
the woman did not ask for this (as opposed to any one who engages in consentual sex literally asking for it), but neither did her child inside of her. difficult one; should be taken case by case because i wouldnt presume to know the right answer

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

but you must remember - this guy HASN'T killed himself
not even once in his entire 36 years

obviously he didn't want to die

but some of you claim that he shouldn't be here

i am horribly disturbed by this

my brother and sister are adopted
their mother was a single, poor and impoverished woman on serious amounts of drugs

people have let slip to me that those types of children shouldn't even be allowed to be born
reject the fact that those kids experience more joy from life than myself
some people are so self interested that their empathy is warped into righteous pity of those with serious handicaps.

Those people don't need your pity
and they certainly don't need you to decide that their life isn't worth living
because it obviously is to most of the people that we condemn out of hand

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agree