You Can't Get Rid of Religion!

There seem to be alot of people who say we'd be better off without religion, as if that were even a possibility. They point to many real or percieved injustices or atrocities actually or imaginedly caused by the existence of Christianity et al-- but do they ever stop to think about the alternatives?

The anti-religion fanatics base their postulations on the sorely mistaken premise that human beings are natively rational and moderate creatures-- which is, of course, ridiculous! Human beings are freeking nuts! They're always gonna want to believe one crazy thing or another, and if it weren't the arrogant piety of Christianity or Islam it would be something else, like the paganism and human sacrifice of the Aztecs or the Vikings (yes, the Viking practiced human sacrifice!).

Education will never truly change the nature of society or of man-- if you look closely at our western democracies, supposedly the most universally "educated" in all history, it will quickly become evident that no one has really got any smarter-- they've just become consumerist whores with "educated" tastes.

Therefore even if all of the Christian and Buddhist and Islamic denominations and churches and churches of all other persuasions were made to permanently disband tomorrow, it would be possibly the most laughably futile act in all of human history. Humans are permanently crazy, and religion (under whatever name) is an irremoveable facet of that lunacy.

DA

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

There seem to be alot of people who say we'd be better off without religion, as if that were even a possibility. They point to many real or percieved injustices or atrocities actually or imaginedly caused by the existence of Christianity et al-- but do they ever stop to think about the alternatives?

The anti-religion fanatics base their postulations on the sorely mistaken premise that human beings are natively rational and moderate creatures-- which is, of course, ridiculous! Human beings are freeking nuts! They're always gonna want to believe one crazy thing or another, and if it weren't the arrogant piety of Christianity or Islam it would be something else, like the paganism and human sacrifice of the Aztecs or the Vikings (yes, the Viking practiced human sacrifice!).

Education will never truly change the nature of society or of man-- if you look closely at our western democracies, supposedly the most universally "educated" in all history, it will quickly become evident that no one has really got any smarter-- they've just become consumerist whores with "educated" tastes.

Therefore even if all of the Christian and Buddhist and Islamic denominations and churches and churches of all other persuasions were made to permanently disband tomorrow, it would be possibly the most laughably futile act in all of human history. Humans are permanently crazy, and religion (under whatever name) is an irremoveable facet of that lunacy.

DA

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Whats even funnier - when you point out that certain political idealogical views have lead to more death and destruction in the last 100 years then what religion has caused.

Religion is just a belief system - its been used for good and for bad by man - just like other belief systems. What fun - can't wait to see the direction this thread goes in.

Religon can't outlawed or foricibly removed, I agree. I think it would be better if it would cease to exist, but it would never be able to happen.
But organized religon's influence on day to day and politiics life should be lessened.

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I think it would be better if it would cease to exist

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Why? I cant believe so many of you dont see all the good religion has caused to come about and only the bad. What message of religion is so bad?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is the basis for most religions I believe. That man uses it for their own designs is irrelevant. Man is bad not religion.

Religion should be at a personal level, not at government level. Keep 'em seperate.

The problem with religion is that is often intolerant of other religions. It doesn't co-exist well in its "pure" form. That makes it unsuitable for direct guidance of government.

Gawain, I think it would be better if people behaved like that with no religous ties. But my point is is that it really can't be stopped, at least in any of our life times.

I have no problem with religion. I do have a problem with people going "Believe this or you will [burn, rot, not attain enlightenment, not enter Valhalla, ect]" religion is a personal thing, and should be created by each person for themselves.

Once more I believe religion is good but that organised religion is bad. Religion should be a very personal thing.

Ok, that I agree with more. I am far more comfortable with personal religon than with organized religon.

There is no reason to Try and get rid of religion, BUT we should atleast keep it out of politics! :bow:

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BUT we should atleast keep it out of politics!

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Thats no so or even feasable. Theres nothing with wanting a law past because you think its the christain thing to do. The civil rights movement comes to mind as good use of religion with politics. The thing is to keep the government subserviant to the people. Religion and government work best when they work hand in hand but when niether controls the other. Let one rule the spirit the other the body. This is why the founding fathers said an educated and religous populace is needed for democracy. The more you govern yourselves(religon) the less Government(state) is needed. Government should be the last resort not the first.

If religion didn't exist what would happen?!

JIMBOB,

Believe this! Or you're going to burn, rot and never reach Enlightenment!

(no one named Jimbob can get into Vallhala)

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Once more I believe religion is good but that organised religion is bad. Religion should be a very personal thing.

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i believe that this opinion is an absurdity because of the fact that individual religious beliefs have only individual "morality" to be built upon which differs from person to person the point that one might say it doesnt really exist.

Individuals personal beliefs that are held wholheartedly may in fact be a subconcious product of years or organized religious tradition being passed through the family as secular.

to cast stones at organized religion - one with tradition - while claiming that personal revelation is the true compass of truth is laughable.

i agree with many of your points - but on this i think (and i am only 22) that you are misguided

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it will quickly become evident that no one has really got any smarter-- they've just become consumerist whores with "educated" tastes.

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I agree in principle, with regards to people as a group.
The average person has got smarter, is more informed and has access to a far superior range of resources on which to base rational decisions. People, however, are still the same panicky, fickle, short-memoried, flip-flopping stampede of maniacs they have always been.

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If religion didn't exist what would happen?!

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We've had that thread twice already this week.

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i believe that this opinion is an absurdity because of the fact that individual religious beliefs have only individual "morality" to be built upon which differs from person to person the point that one might say it doesnt really exist.

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By organised religions Im speaking of Christianity os Islam as such but in the way they are ORGANIZED. The bilble and Koran are really all one needs to know. You dont need this huge buildings with 1000s of people attending to worship god. It would be nice if christains could all acccept that they are the same religion and the same for all Moslems.

Interestingly the intolerance of other religions that the doctrines of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic line demands have come to dominate the world as what "religion" is. The ancient world's case seems different, and the Hebrews seems to be recognized by their ancient neighbors as weird, intolerant, strong-headed extremists. (Hence the horrible treatment they recieved throughout history and the vengeful nature of Jehovah in the Old Testament.) I wonder how the world would be different if the pagan religions thrived rather than Christianity, Islam, and Jewist faiths.

Though the monotheistic nature of these religions are clearly both their strong points and the source of their violent history. And such that history could hardly turn different as these religions would win anyway against the pagan religions. Their resolute and firm standpoints (which prevents, at least from the public mind, change "done by man") looks to the masses like a powerful God's absoluteness, and therefore more believable than the pagan traditions before them. The polytheistic pagan religions would allow for much more tolerance and adaptation (like the Roman copies of Greek gods, or how they fit in the worship of Isis, an ancient Egyptian goddess, into the Roman society) and yet they would seem much more "artificial."

Nonetheless, one could not deny that organized religions - by that I include the traditions of ancient religions as well as our modern ones - were responsible, in part, in the foundation of society. They provided reason to live other than just for the sake of surviving in the age where the ideals of humanity and human rights are virtually nothing but a lone scholar's "rant"; they provided a united reason, using human's superstitious weakness for their own good, to establish social hierarchy needed to base a society on; they provided spirituality and morality codes to prevent the downfall of society in the hands of the irresponsible humans. Though the modern religion - organized ones, that is - are dominated by "One God" doctrines that simply leads to intolerance of other religions, and an external conflict of spirituality tends to be especially violent, with the two sides fighting to the death when they were sure that they are the ones that's "right."

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

The anti-religion fanatics base their postulations on the sorely mistaken premise that human beings are natively rational and moderate creatures-- which is, of course, ridiculous! Human beings are freeking nuts!

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There are different ways of tackling this issue. One would be the structuralist approach. It says that religion is part of the collective mind-set found in all human societies and that it probably reflects a deep-seated human need for transcendence. In other words: take away one religion and a new one will arise. This has happened in the Soviet Union, where communism and the belief in the infallibility of the Communist Party (parallels with a certain Church, anyone?) in various ways replaced the old religious dogmas and sentiments of Orthodoxy.

One way to control 'religious' excesses is to make people aware of this mechanism and have them reflect on acceptable ways to fulfill their need for transcendence.

Screw "religion", All you need is Jesus. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Religion is just a belief system - its been used for good and for bad by man - just like other belief systems.

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I disagree. Religion is a political power structure based upon belief in a higher power as the determinator of the power structure. Religion by default can never be personal. Belief itself can be personal though.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Screw "religion", All you need is Jesus. ~:)

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No you don't he is the last thing you need.

edit

taking this out before i get flamed

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Originally Posted by bmolsson

I disagree. Religion is a political power structure based upon belief in a higher power as the determinator of the power structure. Religion by default can never be personal. Belief itself can be personal though.

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I would agree that in a lot of ways that is what it has become as an institution.

However as an individual belief in the Christian Religion to me is a personal thing.

If we look at history (yes, again) we will see that religion has been behind any given state supporting it, legitimating it and legitimating the leaders. Supporting the inmobile social structure, supporting laws. Is as Orkeny said, the state needs the religion almost all the time to legitimate, like swearing on the Constitution to God. But it's not imposible to just take religion by force from the state, so the state some day dissapears, that will be a good thing indeed. That people believes, doesn't have any real conscuence on the world it's in general a good thing (i would use intrascendent), but if it's organazed, dogmatized and if it involves with the state, we are talking about another pressure group on the polilitcs that only brings irrationality to the leading and more power to an state when it's better than the state decreases in power, not increase it. Tough for what i'm seeing in the recent times the irrationality added by organized religion to the politics of nations (at least mine) is begging to fade away, it's a good sign, but still my Constitution still mentions God as the supporter of my laws :dizzy2: , when in principle, even following the believers, nobody on earth can know what Gods "thinks".

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Screw "religion", All you need is Jesus. ~:)

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I thought all you needed was love...

I think what it comes down to depends on what religon is. Is it a belief in a higher thingy? Or is it an organized bunch of people who all believe in the same higher thingy?
Because I have no problem with someone believing in god. I do have a problem with a big guy who claims that only his god is right, and telling those who follow him that only they are right.

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Originally Posted by JimBob

I have no problem with religion. I do have a problem with people going "Believe this or you will [burn, rot, not attain enlightenment, not enter Valhalla, ect]" religion is a personal thing, and should be created by each person for themselves.

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why do you have a problem with it if you dont believe it?

lets just blow up the world.should be fun.then well know.flaming hell or blissful nothingness.

and yes i am insane.very much so.and i enjoy it hugely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahhahaahhaahahahahahahahahahha ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker: ~:joker: :clown: :clown: ~:wave: ~:wave: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :stars: :stars: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :joker: :joker: :joker: :weirdthread: :weirdthread: :weirdthread: :end: :end: :end: :end: :end: :end: :angel: :stupid:

Religion…

What is the equivalent word in your languages?
In Norwegian it is Religion and I would think it is the same for all the Scandinavian languages.
Icelandic never imports words – trúarbrögð (neuter).

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Interestingly the intolerance of other religions that the doctrines of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic line demands have come to dominate the world as what "religion" is.

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Actually Christianity and Islam (I'm not sure about Judaism) explicitly state that is wrong to be intollerant to people of other religions, rather that it is the correct path to try and convert those of other religions to your own.

the jews killed jesus because they were intolerant - and just look at the israel state, and dont tell me it is tolerant!

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

the jews killed jesus because they were intolerant - and just look at the israel state, and dont tell me it is tolerant!

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Now that is just so sterotypical and wrong.

Excuse me, but that is a load of anti-Semitic crap. Jesus was killed by HIS FELLOW JEWS because they feared his new group would upset the status quo and provoc a rebellion which would mean bloody reprisals by the Roman Legions. You say the State of Israel is intolerant. What do you expect? A few days after Israel was given independance, it was invaded by Syria, the Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen. After the war was won, what should they have said? "No harm done, old chap. Let's forget all about it and live happily ever after". For all its "intolerance", it is the most free country in the Middle East.