Katrina, and the failings of news& 50 years

For 50 years America knew (actually 200 years ago+) that New Orleans was succeptible to flooding (big rains in the 30's is the cause for the dykes and pumping sytem inplace now). Amazing. Yet, for over 50 years ... it was ignored. Ignored, not out of ignorance - but out of convieniance (it was just cheaper to pretend nothing would happen vs accepting it would). And, now it has happened. This is not my point, might ought to be, but it ain't.

What happened with our news? First off the reporting was, "Well, it is bad ... but, it isn't the devistating storm for New Orleans we thought it would be (after all the "eye" missed them by 20 some miles .. cough.. cough). We'll just have to see what it looks like tomorrow (today)."

Morons. Having gone through Charlie (only 80 mph winds here), Francis (110 mph - but, sat on us for days .... I mean imagine the damn thing moved at like 1mph - he had a home, thank Zeus he finally felt he was no longer welcome), then Jeanine at 130mph (my nemisis, home got through the others, but guess her intensity was a bit more than portions of my old homestead could tolerate ... neighbors suffered worse - what with their airhangers - might have something to do with getting hit by the eye wall too.) Never again, a total of 6 weeks without power (well, not true - I got a generator - but no AC in August and Sept in Florida is no joke).

No one that has been in 100+ mph winds knows what I am talking about. Those that do, know that when that type of storm is coming - you run (or you are a dummy - like me). That people were alowed to stay is in New Orleans - BS. I live 25 feet above my river - during Jeanne the waters were actually touching the bottom of my bass-boat (10 feet above the normal river level - which is really what ever "water mismanagement" sets it at).

What truely upsets me is how cavalier the news media was, and how lax our government was about it all ... 'til now.

The media was all doom and gloom about the Big Easy - the government (our Prez on vacation and of course without any real interest in governing) ignoring the potential for disaster (until it becomes a fact) ... neither forced the issue. That being, get the people out of harms way - press the point of how severe it would be .... etc. Send "Greyhounds" in to get the people out! Do what ever it takes to save those that want to be saved.

Instead, we got .... 80% evacuated the Big Easy, those that stayed (15& anyway) had no choice - they were to poor or simply had no where else to go. There were no busses outta town, no NG trucks, nothing for the poor at all - except go to the DOME (and try to get in - 10,000 were turned away, btw).

The news, always trying to exaggerate, did it big time this time. They did so well that alot of people simply believed they had heard this all before - and ignored the warnings (i know, I did for Jeanne). It's the hype, the NEWS (make it all it can be), and ultimately for this storm .. and a administration that only reacts 'til after the fact. Well, actually, that is how it has always been done - ignore it 'til its over. [Then look concerned]

Imagine, and there are 2 more "tropical waves" - and two more months 'til the end of "The Season". Leaving the "NEWS" with so much more to under report, and even more to exaggerate. [the governor of Louisiana is a Democrat - not that, that had an influence... well, maybe a tad?].

Still, it was the media that drove and inspired a challenge to the ignorant to stay. It was they that when Katrina's innerwall did not hit N.O. head on .. said (an hour after it had passed on to Biloxi), "Well, it isn't the storm we had hoped for, but it's bad enough." Imagine, the unmitigated gaul to wish for something worse .... and then hours later discover they got their wish and have their peons out there telling us how bad it is ..... for them - their peons.

During Francis, sitting in the dark, listening to the jet plane parked aside my house and hearing things being ripped off of it; on my radio I heard some of our local PalmBeach news casters joking amongst themselves on how hard it was for them to get a "hot" pizza. Wellllllll, (still got an old push button telephone .... something about that Supreme Court ruling about wireless not requing a "tap" that caused me to keep it - btw, go try to find one) it pissed me off. After all, here I am - in the dark with 130mph winds tearing at my investment (home) and I'm listening to a buncha giggling teenagers worried about cold pizza. I called in, and got the top honcho as it turned out - who first tried to excuse them for being over-worked (long hours - like I said the damn thing took days to pass), etc. To which, I said, "i understood - but, they are talking to people living in the dark, living in a world they no longer control, living in a new universe new to them - one devoid of caring if they are listening to your broadcast." Know what? Never heard one ass make a joke about what was on outside their narrow little confines of the world again ... during a storm that is.

Katrina! What a monster. What a failure, again for government to be able to respond. Always after the fact, piss on the 50 years previously. From Ike to present, all of them failed New Orleans. After all, who had the time?
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Blame the government for the hurrican hitting New Orleans are we?

New Orleans is a city with a city government - which has the obligation to protect the citizens. That is the first level of government failure. Shall we talk about city planning? Where does the federal government step in - in the planning process of city expanision and growth?

New Orleans is a city in a state - the next level of government that is suppose to manage crisis that occur within the state. It was the govenors responsiblity to use the National Guard resources when it became obvious that the city need evacuated - not the Federal Government.

New Orleans is a city in a state in the United States of America. The Corps of Engineers built and maintains most of the levies around New Orleans - could they of predicted that the levies would burst - hard to tell. Then blaming the President - sure you can blame him - but you seem to discount the other two levels of government which had the direct responsibility and ability to protect the city.

Rants are just that rants.

I thought I was going to have to sarcastically say something like "Yup, and it must have been W's fault!" But it turns out I didn't even need to do that.

Crazed Rabbit

What I don't understand is the levee breaking. The city of NO managed to dodge a bullet when the hurricane took a shift to the east just before landfall. This meant that there wasn't much flooding in the city until yesterday. Then, yesterday, the levees broke, and now 80% of the city is underwater. It seems that the hurricane gave NO a break, but that the human preparations for the storm proved inadequate.

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Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules

What I don't understand is the levee breaking. The city of NO managed to dodge a bullet when the hurricane took a shift to the east just before landfall. This meant that there wasn't much flooding in the city until yesterday. Then, yesterday, the levees broke, and now 80% of the city is underwater. It seems that the hurricane gave NO a break, but that the human preparations for the storm proved inadequate.

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Yes indeed - that seems to be the major problem. But it seems instead of trying to figure out why the levys broke some want to blame the government from the start.

The problem with that is - that there are three levels of government involved - each of them had a part in the ability to prevent parts of this diaster - but its doubtful if the government could of prevent all of it.

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Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules

What I don't understand is the levee breaking. The city of NO managed to dodge a bullet when the hurricane took a shift to the east just before landfall. This meant that there wasn't much flooding in the city until yesterday. Then, yesterday, the levees broke, and now 80% of the city is underwater. It seems that the hurricane gave NO a break, but that the human preparations for the storm proved inadequate.

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If I understand correctly, the storm surge was higher than the levees, and once water started pouring over the levee, it eroded the levee in 2 spots. Until they can plug the holes, pumping is useless. Hurricane winds are pretty bad, but the storm surge is usually more dangerous for low lying areas. Since it is impossible to predict if/when/where a levee will break, I'm not really sure what could be done. I think the surge was over 20 ft high mean (not including wave action), the levees were 18 ft ASL, IIRC. They are trying to plug the levees with 3,000lb sandbags, dropped from helicopters. This would be impossible to do during the storm. So assuming the levee was breached from erosion over the top, and not structural failure, the only thing to prevent this would be to make the levee taller.

Seriously though. Wow. What a storm. And what a place for it to hit. I mean New Orleans is pretty swampy normally.

DA

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I thought I was going to have to sarcastically say something like "Yup, and it must have been W's fault!" But it turns out I didn't even need to do that.

Crazed Rabbit

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Actually...

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001051313

It turns out that the Army Corps of Engineers has been practically begging for more money for years to repair the barrier islands and repair and extend the levee system for Lake Ponchartrain. Bush's proposed 2004 budget included less than 20% of the money the Corps said it needed for the Southeast Lousiana Urban Flood Control Project or SELA.

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On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us.

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Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them

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The Newhouse News Service article published Tuesday night observed, "The Louisiana congressional delegation urged Congress earlier this year to dedicate a stream of federal money to Louisiana's coast, only to be opposed by the White House. ... In its budget, the Bush administration proposed a significant reduction in funding for southeast Louisiana's chief hurricane protection project. Bush proposed $10.4 million, a sixth of what local officials say they need.

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So, along with the deaths of 1878 U.S. military personnel, the permanent maiming of thousands more and the deaths of ~25000 Iraqi civilians (because no one bothers to count the "enemy" dead, do they?), Bush's military adventurism in Iraq has some not quite unexpected results closer to home.

Look Red, I agree - it took 3 levels of government to ignore the problem. The corp of engineers sighed and said there's no more we can do - if a monster storm hits. And everyone simply went about believing that nothing more could be done, or would be done - karma. In fact, the corp had given reports over the years that there were somethings that ought to be done - like reinforcing the levies. Again, they were ignored and it was business as usual - 'til now. Who could have predicted a break in the levies? The corp did - but, was ignored because to take action meant money. After all its not called the Big Easy for nothing. Karma.

However, my biggest beef here is not about that (coulda, woulda, shoulda is something politians do) - it is about the bravado of our news agencies when dealing with a potential disaster and the disaster itself when it occurs. They first tend to exaggerate each and every storm. When a particular storm is not as severe as they predicted (or had hoped for), the residents affected become callous to the reporting and begin to downplay what they hear from the news. People ignore it, well some anyway. In the case of Katrina the news was gloom and doom, but even they didn't believe it - 'til now.

The wise fled before the onslaught of Katrina - but, the news agencies moved in. So, with that in mind, why wouldn't a portion of the people believe it was safe for them as well? Granted the poor have no choice - where and how could they leave? But, for those that stayed out of curiousity or devotion to their material things or because they believed it was just more hype than reality. That is what I accuse the news agencies of - for being so blatantly melodramatic rather than being realistic.

Every storm it is the same - reporter reporting in the winds and rain, on a beach ("Looks dangerous out there." "It is, Jack, I hope everyone stays in side." Well, good luck Bob - get somewhere safe soon." "Will do, Jack. As soon as the next sound bite is taken for the 11 o'clock news"). Reporter being maucho, storm center reporting worse case scenarios - every 5 minutes. It is as if they are daring people to do as they do - not do as they say. And then, the storm turns out to be a bust (of sorts) - like Katrina in Dade County (Miami). People see this (after hearing the doom and gloom) and think, well that wasn't so bad - maybe I'll just stay and wait it out.

Me, after going through a few - I will flee from now on. Grab up my photo albums and split the scene - screw the news, what do they really know. Or, care.

Maybe Kafir was firing at the wrong targets, but somehow the right targets keep moving all the time in this ole world and he is using blanks anyway. He had at least one point that you guys seem to be missing.

When I watched the images of NO in the days and hours before the hurricane hit, together with my colleagues and friends and family members, we saw that thousands of people, probably tens of thousands, were left behind in the town because they had no transport or no place to go. When that fact was mentioned by reporters, everybody around me went 'What????'

Some just couldn't believe it. Just like that, the authorities were going leave elderly and sick people, dysfunctional families with kids, mental and hospital patients etcetera etcetera behind to drown or have their heads blown off by 130 mph winds. And someone said, literally, 'Where are the Greyhounds? Where are the army trucks?'

Apparently American audiences were not shocked by this at all. Of course now they are shocked and tearful over images of hurricane victims crying and asking 'Where's my wife, where my wife?'

Where were the Gryehounds, Mr Mayor? Governor? Mr President? In a case like this, that is what I -- and 16 million other Dutchmen -- would be asking.

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Originally Posted by KafirChobee

Look Red, I agree - it took 3 levels of government to ignore the problem. The corp of engineers sighed and said there's no more we can do - if a monster storm hits. And everyone simply went about believing that nothing more could be done, or would be done - karma. In fact, the corp had given reports over the years that there were somethings that ought to be done - like reinforcing the levies. Again, they were ignored and it was business as usual - 'til now. Who could have predicted a break in the levies? The corp did - but, was ignored because to take action meant money. After all its not called the Big Easy for nothing. Karma.

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Exactly - however it seems both you and Aenlic would like to blame Bush. I got news for Aenlic even if Bush would of approved the money it takes over 5 years for any project to get going - especially governmental projects. If any President can be blamed for the problem - individuals who wish to cast blame have to go back a little futher then just President Bush. Its all political hyperbole to blame just one adminstration for a diaster of this magitude. Edit: it happens to be the blame of several adminstrations - not just the current President - that he is in office currently makes it easier to just blame him - but that is just touching the tip of the problem.

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However, my biggest beef here is not about that (coulda, woulda, shoulda is something politians do) - it is about the bravado of our news agencies when dealing with a potential disaster and the disaster itself when it occurs. They first tend to exaggerate each and every storm. When a particular storm is not as severe as they predicted (or had hoped for), the residents affected become callous to the reporting and begin to downplay what they hear from the news. People ignore it, well some anyway. In the case of Katrina the news was gloom and doom, but even they didn't believe it - 'til now.

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That is the problem with our society - it takes a major shock to wake us up - and even then its only for a few moments of time. The media does that to sell their paper and their broadcast time.

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The wise fled before the onslaught of Katrina - but, the news agencies moved in. So, with that in mind, why wouldn't a portion of the people believe it was safe for them as well? Granted the poor have no choice - where and how could they leave? But, for those that stayed out of curiousity or devotion to their material things or because they believed it was just more hype than reality. That is what I accuse the news agencies of - for being so blatantly melodramatic rather than being realistic.

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As for the poor - I blame the mayor and the state governor for not taking the necessary steps to get the city completely evacuated - to include the media. After all it was their responsiblity to insure the safety of thier citizens.

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Every storm it is the same - reporter reporting in the winds and rain, on a beach ("Looks dangerous out there." "It is, Jack, I hope everyone stays in side." Well, good luck Bob - get somewhere safe soon." "Will do, Jack. As soon as the next sound bite is taken for the 11 o'clock news"). Reporter being maucho, storm center reporting worse case scenarios - every 5 minutes. It is as if they are daring people to do as they do - not do as they say. And then, the storm turns out to be a bust (of sorts) - like Katrina in Dade County (Miami). People see this (after hearing the doom and gloom) and think, well that wasn't so bad - maybe I'll just stay and wait it out.

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It will most likely take several reporters unfortunately being killed by such storms for it to stop - and even then I doubt it will. I normally turn it off when I see such broadcasts - since I kind of know why they do that. Glory seeking by the media.

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Me, after going through a few - I will flee from now on. Grab up my photo albums and split the scene - screw the news, what do they really know. Or, care.

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And I go into my center bathroom during torando's. A wise individual does not expose themselves to unneccessary danger.

If my city needs anything it gets put on a ballot and voted on. Like a millage for new construction on a school or a millage for more firefighters. New Orleans has plenty of tourist money and they could have afforded to buildup the levies if they wanted to. They choose not to, for years. And now they are screwed. It is hardly the president’s fault, but I do think there should have been a bigger rush to evacuate, although as I understand it, very few people thought it would turn their direction as quickly as it did.

The media suck and are only out for themselves and people are lazy and apprehensive to spend money unless on an immediate threat. Seeing how there hasn’t been a hurricane to hit the area with such effect in 50 years im not surprised that all 3 levels of gov and the citizens were dismissing the request to build up the levies.

The majority of the area is around 6 feet under sea level and the levies are between 12 and 18 feet tall. The swells were 20-30 feet tall, even built up these levies would have been doomed. I feel bad for the people but the fact they basically live in a flood plain makes me less sympathetic. It’s not a secret, the people there know and have made a conscience decision to live there, move there, start businesses there, etc. If you live in California expect earthquakes, Kansas expect tornados, Florida expect hurricanes, a flood plain expect to eventually be flooded. This is an extreme situation but not one that was completely out of the blue.

Feel bad for the people and help them if you can but don’t act like they are innocent victims of a random act or that it’s the presidents fault (I know most people here are not but watch the news or listen to NPR for a few minutes and hear how many are).

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Where were the Gryehounds, Mr Mayor? Governor? Mr President? In a case like this, that is what I -- and 16 million other Dutchmen -- would be asking.

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Well you were correct with the first two individuals - the Federal government has to wait for the state to ask for help.

Part of my last assignment in the Army was being a liason with FEMA for the military portion - the active duty military can not do much because of the Possee Comtas (SP) law. However we did coordinate and assist in several diaster efforts while I was in. However again certain conditions have to be meet before the Federal assistance and orders can set in.

But yes Kafir is correct in pointing out the Media's fault - the city mayor's errors and even the governors errors in this diaster - And I got that message and even supported it. Its the other part of his post I took issue with.

The Daily Show did a pretty good piece on "storm reporting" once... :laugh4:

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So, along with the deaths of 1878 U.S. military personnel, the permanent maiming of thousands more and the deaths of ~25000 Iraqi civilians (because no one bothers to count the "enemy" dead, do they?), Bush's military adventurism in Iraq has some not quite unexpected results closer to home.

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Im shocked, although I shouldnt be. Some people will go to the most extreme links to blame George W Bush for every thing wrong in the world. Its the height of idiocy.

On topic.. I agree with Kafir's original post. Directly after the storm the media seemed disappointed that New Orleans had been spared, and the utter glee in their reporting after the levees broke was a little sickening. These kinds of things are what they live for though.. they are the center of attention - the masters of information, and they love it.

This storm did not give much warning compared to others. It shifted paths dramatically and strengthened really quickly.

I never saw the media ignore the potential of this one. They jumped all over it. The problem was that there was not adequate transportation to move the population on short notice. There were also those that refuse to leave.

The U.S. simply isn't set up for mass transport. The country relies on personal transportation. The highways bottlenecked. In best of conditions each highway lane can pass 1800 cars per hour, during a major evacuation I doubt they can handle half that volume.

What they are doing now--sending in buses--was needed in the ~18 hours available before the storm hit from when the mandatory evacuation was declared until the weather was too rough to try escaping.

The truth is that some people need a good swift kick in the pants before they believe the warnings. And govt agencies and leaders also need it before they get serious about addressing the problems.

Another problem that has cropped up: not enough boats. In Louisiana??? Why? Because the boats were not "high and dry" and distributed in anticipation of the storm. It is understandable when you look at it. But in hindsight one realizes that part of disaster planning should be to move as many boats as possible to upper level parking garages where they can be retrieved as needed. Of course, again you have limited time to do this...and many other things to do as well.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I thought I was going to have to sarcastically say something like "Yup, and it must have been W's fault!" But it turns out I didn't even need to do that.

Crazed Rabbit

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I've taken to blaiming W for everything. Makes fit in on campus better ~;)

But that is off topic (for the purposes of this post anyway).

Let us be honest, if you live along the SE coast of the US... you are probably going to get smacked with a big hurricane once in a while. So be it. Goes with the territory. Just like Tornados and blizzards (well... mainly the first) here. Why didn't New Orleans (and every other major town along the coast, there are hundreds of them) have plans to take care of the poor? Blaiming lack of money doesn't fly with me. If a city or a state needs money, take it from some other program (my first choice), or raise taxes (and commit political suicide). The money that could have been spent on transports was spent on other things. Okay, that is the way a budget works.

The Feds did not give enough money to the Corps of Engineers because they did not scream loud enough. Some other program did. So now what? Give money to the Corps of Engineers and deny that other program? What if that program takes care of the elderly or provides jobs? Who gets priority? I say the Corps of Engineers... but that is just me and I don't get to make budgets for governments.

And yes, the media did make me sick. Of hearing about the storm. Yup... it'll be bad. Yup it was bad... Yup it's still bad...

Hyperbole (in all its glory) is part of how our media works. You want to combat it? Go ahead and try, but I don't think you'll have any luck. Sensationalism is ingrained into the media. Dead people make good headlines (especially dead pretty ones [see the girl in whatever island it is]).

What would you like? Forced evac? Yup, and then have the ACLU suing everyone it possibly can for years on end for denying person A the right to die in a storm. (Or maybe survive and loot. Who knows? The might get lucky.) The media tells us about an oncoming storm... every year... over and over. I don't mess around with the big boys that come through here this time of year (tornado season), but that has been ingrained into me not by the Weather Channel or the local news, but by my Mom and Dad.

While yes, it is fun to rant (this was rather longer than I was expecting), does it really have a point? CNN, FoxNews, ABC, CBS, NBC will keep going along as they are, because that makes them profitable. You could have a state run media which wouldn't need to be profitable (like NPR) but that has its own problems.

Azi

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Im shocked, although I shouldnt be. Some people will go to the most extreme links to blame George W Bush for every thing wrong in the world. Its the height of idiocy.

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So, you're admitting that unlike in the Truman administration, the buck not only doesn't stop at the president, these days it doesn't even come near the White House. Does it even write or call or maybe send a nice card on Christmas?

Of course it doesn't stop there... it has been outsourced and is now user pays. ~D

You peolpe do realise the New Orleans as a city is dead. They now say the death toll is in the thousands.Bilouxi Mississippi is also wiped out as if an atomic bomb had hit it. I remeber seeing a show on the history channel of New Orleans and this has always been a problem thre. Its like earthquakes in San Fransisco. Heck people still life by volcanoes all over the world. There is nothing you can do to stop nature. I fear the same may happen in Denmark again someday. This is the greatest natural disater to ever hit the US. Lets stop looking for blame and concentrate on finding ways to help.

First and foremost, let me say that I my heart goes out to all the victims of the hurricane and their families. It was a terrible tragedy. The lack of responsiveness by the local, state & federal governments was truly astonishing. Yes, the Army Corps of Engineers & others at the federal level might have to wait for the local governments to authorize their long-term plans, but why didn't they evacuate people? They didn't need to wait for any authority for that...

Another bizarre thing none of us on the cruise ship could figure out.... when they were evacuating, along I-10, why didn't they open the inbound lanes for outbound traffic?

Now, here's where I'm going to have differentiate from people... New Orleans is a lot of fun and has a lot of historical and cultural significance. But we should have slowly started abandoning it 50 years ago. It's 7 feet below sea level, on the flood delta for the largest river in North America and also a prime location for hurricanes. Despite it's geographic significance, it just doesn't make sense to continue to build there. I know there's other parts of the world where dyke & levee system works, but honestly, how many hurricanes or spring floods do they take? I think the real crime of lack of foresight was not beginning the evacuation 50 years ago when they realized what they were up against.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

You peolpe do realise the New Orleans as a city is dead. They now say the death toll is in the thousands.Bilouxi Mississippi is also wiped out as if an atomic bomb had hit it. I remeber seeing a show on the history channel of New Orleans and this has always been a problem thre. Its like earthquakes in San Fransisco. Heck people still life by volcanoes all over the world. There is nothing you can do to stop nature. I fear the same may happen in Denmark again someday. This is the greatest natural disater to ever hit the US. Lets stop looking for blame and concentrate on finding ways to help.

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I don't see that New Orleans is dead. It is going to have to change in big ways, but it is going to remain a city. Galveston was destroyed in 1900, and it was rebuilt with a seawall (one that the citizens had been wanting for some time, and by raising the level of the land.) I suspect New Orleans will have a far smaller population long term, and I suspect many current low lying areas will be razed, then raised. There is too much industry in the area that depends on it for it to just disappear. I don't think Louisiana will be willing (or able) to abandon the city, any more than Alabama is going to abandon Mobile.

Make it the New Venice...

Or think ahead and build more of the houses on stilts... use the 7 odd foot headspace for parking. See them in Australia all the time in flood zones.

Worst case you lose a car.

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I don't see that New Orleans is dead.

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Im speaking of today. It is not possible to live there. No stores or busssinisses are or will be open for quite sometime and as has been said is it wise to taunt mother nature again?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Make it the New Venice...

Or think ahead and build more of the houses on stilts... use the 7 odd foot headspace for parking. See them in Australia all the time in flood zones.

Worst case you lose a car.

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They already have quite a few of those in various barrier island communities. FEMA specifies the height depending on the region and the heights have been increased in the past few years. It is 15 feet in some areas. Wouldn't be surprised if it increases again based on the massive storm surge of Katrina.

Even that is no guarrantee in a hurricane though since you have to worry about barges, casinos, oil rigs, boats and other vessels and structures blowing like a battering ram into the homes. There was one clip on the news of one of the floating casinos that had systmatically crushed all but the very end of a 3 story hotel. If the ground beneath you is in water, then you are vulnerable to anything floating in the water.

It is truly sickening to see the devastation. I've done some feeble attempts to help by donating to the Red Cross, and helping with my hospital's effort to provide aid, but it hardly seems adequite.

One thing I don't understand is where did the electric power come from to lighten the aisles for all the looters? I'm sure some of you saw the footage of looters rampaging through a store/shopping center with flourescents blazing in the ceiling...where'd the electricity come from? Why steal a TV if they're predicting no power to your city for months?

On a final ramble, if the talk is simply to repair the old system of levees/dykes then why rebuild it at all? This tragedy can be avoided in the future, the devastation and deaths twharted...just rebuild above sea-level this time. Let the river change it's course. If that's too radical then mandate that all building are AT LEAST 5 feet above sea-level. When the Mississippi overflowed it's banks in Missouri and Illinois one time too many they stopped rebuilding there...do the same, please. We're going to have to spend billions in infrastructure, even more in aid to displaced/devastated Americans. Let's not spend all the money an effort to rebuild a new disaster-in waiting.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

First and foremost, let me say that I my heart goes out to all the victims of the hurricane and their families. It was a terrible tragedy. The lack of responsiveness by the local, state & federal governments was truly astonishing. Yes, the Army Corps of Engineers & others at the federal level might have to wait for the local governments to authorize their long-term plans, but why didn't they evacuate people? They didn't need to wait for any authority for that...

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Actually there are specific laws that prevent the Federal Government from just stepping in. In order for the Federal Government to evacuate a city the size of New Orleans - they would have to mobilize the military. There is a law - Posse Comatus (SP) that prohibits the use of Federal military troops in conducting such operations. It would take an act of Congress to authorize the use of the Active Military. In the time New Orleans had - and the fact that congress was on vacation - such an authorization would not of happened in my opinion.

Now FEMA could have activated a little earlier and used the United States Postal Truck to conduct emerancy transportation of people from New Orleans - using the vechicles from the local Main Post Office in the city. That would of been about 25-50 tractor trailers able to haul people if such a call would have been made - but again FEMA is a weak organization that does not really begin to function until an emerancy is declared. That again takes the politicians at all levels to get off their rear-ends and take care of the citizens in the manner in which they are suppose to.

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Another bizarre thing none of us on the cruise ship could figure out.... when they were evacuating, along I-10, why didn't they open the inbound lanes for outbound traffic?

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Well that should of happened - I thought that was part of the emerancy plan for the city for such an occurance. New Orleans has always claimed they had a decent evacuation plan for just such an occurance.

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Now, here's where I'm going to have differentiate from people... New Orleans is a lot of fun and has a lot of historical and cultural significance. But we should have slowly started abandoning it 50 years ago. It's 7 feet below sea level, on the flood delta for the largest river in North America and also a prime location for hurricanes. Despite it's geographic significance, it just doesn't make sense to continue to build there. I know there's other parts of the world where dyke & levee system works, but honestly, how many hurricanes or spring floods do they take? I think the real crime of lack of foresight was not beginning the evacuation 50 years ago when they realized what they were up against.

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Yes indeed the city council and the mayor's office did not attempt to control the urban sprawl of the city. I wonder if building so close to the levy's that were built before the structures were there might have had some effect on the strength.

First, I re-read my posts, I didn't bash nor blame Bush43 for what has happened. I did say that ALL the presidents and congresses since Ike tended to down play it, or simply ignored that there was a potential problem. So, please don't accuse me of blaiming the ineffectual planning for N.O. on anyone specifically. The failure that is new Orleans took a combined effort on many to fullfill the disaster that is. Even Bush couldn't have done this on his own - j/k.

Point is, as the head of the Army Corp of Engineers said last night on Ted Koppel, it was a matter of cost-effect analysis. It was a matter that no one felt that the cost to make the levies safer was worth the cost - bet they do now. It was looked at, reviewed, and analyized. A planning board was selected and plans were drawn up to reinforce, raise the height, etc of the dykes and levies. Once the cost was put in, however, it was rejected as being to costly and that it might be ineffectual anyway. No one wanted to spend the money. Since it is a done deal now (the city is gone), none of it really matters - though congress will for sure hold hearings to try to find a scapegoat (s) for their own blind eye approach to the problem.

Now, back to the news. Saw this one tonight. First they showed blacks "looting" (carrying soda, bread, canned goods, dry clothes), then they showed a picture of whites "scavaging" for water, bread, and clothing. Hmmm, seems one race be the bad kind, the other just trying to survive. I almost choked on my drink. I swear to god, this was real. Just another instance of the honest reporting (saw it on CBS, but they were showing what had been reported on FOX news - and retracted I understand).

Still, it brings up a curious question. When does survival become looting? I mean if someone is out stealing cars, grabbing up CD players, or other things of value - that to me is looting. When someone is trying to find dry clothes, food, water or other basic necessities - that is survival. Equating them as being the same is wrong. Especially when 4 days after the storm people are still at risk of dehydration.

Last year, I was without power (normal - I got a generator for fridge and fans) for a combined total of 5 weeks - Francis and Jeanne. The wealthy neighborhoods on the East coast were without power a total of 24 hours after the storms. Seems some animals are more equal than others.

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Originally Posted by KafirChobee

First, I re-read my posts, I didn't bash nor blame Bush43 for what has happened. I did say that ALL the presidents and congresses since Ike tended to down play it, or simply ignored that there was a potential problem. So, please don't accuse me of blaiming the ineffectual planning for N.O. on anyone specifically. The failure that is new Orleans took a combined effort on many to fullfill the disaster that is. Even Bush couldn't have done this on his own - j/k.

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Well it seems you didn't notice the attempt at slamming the President because he was technically on Vacation.

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Point is, as the head of the Army Corp of Engineers said last night on Ted Koppel, it was a matter of cost-effect analysis. It was a matter that no one felt that the cost to make the levies safer was worth the cost - bet they do now. It was looked at, reviewed, and analyized. A planning board was selected and plans were drawn up to reinforce, raise the height, etc of the dykes and levies. Once the cost was put in, however, it was rejected as being to costly and that it might be ineffectual anyway. No one wanted to spend the money. Since it is a done deal now (the city is gone), none of it really matters - though congress will for sure hold hearings to try to find a scapegoat (s) for their own blind eye approach to the problem.

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Yep they sure will - most likely it will be someone from the Corps of Engineers - most likely the head man that was on with Ted Koppel.

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Now, back to the news. Saw this one tonight. First they showed blacks "looting" (carrying soda, bread, canned goods, dry clothes), then they showed a picture of whites "scavaging" for water, bread, and clothing. Hmmm, seems one race be the bad kind, the other just trying to survive. I almost choked on my drink. I swear to god, this was real. Just another instance of the honest reporting (saw it on CBS, but they were showing what had been reported on FOX news - and retracted I understand).

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Stupid media -

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Still, it brings up a curious question. When does survival become looting? I mean if someone is out stealing cars, grabbing up CD players, or other things of value - that to me is looting. When someone is trying to find dry clothes, food, water or other basic necessities - that is survival. Equating them as being the same is wrong. Especially when 4 days after the storm people are still at risk of dehydration.

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Technically I believe its all called looting - however I would give a pass on anyone that had to break into a store that was not going to open to get what they needed to survive.

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Last year, I was without power (normal - I got a generator for fridge and fans) for a combined total of 5 weeks - Francis and Jeanne. The wealthy neighborhoods on the East coast were without power a total of 24 hours after the storms. Seems some animals are more equal than others.

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That or they complain louder then us simple folk.

Why are you looking for somebody to blame when it was due to the weather? I mean i know GWB controls much of the world but the weather?
This reminds me of everytime there's a storm on the IOM and the flights are cancelled, the public always seem to think it's check-ins fault that the weather's bad, listen no-body can or will control the weather (cos i have the weather machine mwhahahaha) so instead of looking for who to blame, go out and do whatever you can to help those poor people still trapped inside the city....

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jh...rc=rss/topNews

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Bush administration funding cuts forced federal engineers to delay improvements on the levees, floodgates and pumping stations that failed to protect New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina's floodwaters
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White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the administration had funded flood control efforts adequately.

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:embarassed:

GWB is obviously not guilty of what's happening in our former colony over there. The decision of not paying for rebuilding the levies probably never went high enough for him being informed of that(and God knows he must be informed of a huge number of things).

But, when the damage is done, flying towards Washington at the other side of the country, to later come back, mmmmh..... He's got a reputation of a coward after its military record thingie, this won't reduce that reputation..... That being said, the important thing is what he'll do now.

Venice is sinking, Holland should be the bottom of the North Sea, Japan get's ravaged by earthquakes to no end and the bay of Naples will fall prey to the Vesuvius one day.

But a difficult, even impossible, natural environment stimulates human ingeniouty.

You can only live in places like the above if human creativity is continually pushed to the extreme. Which is precisely the underlying cause for those amazing, flourishing civilizations and cities.

Who cares if New Orleans is seven feet below sea level. It is a great historical and cultural center of America. Rebuilding it into a thriving city again would be a monument to the creative spirit of the US.

Well said, Louis!

Rebuilding is folly IMO. Thinking of even just the clean-up operation let alone the rebuilding itself. And even then it might happen again. Not worth the hassle. Find somewhere else to build New New Orleans. But think of a different name maybe!

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think of a different name maybe!

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"Next Orleans"

It will be rebuilt exactly where it is. There is too much U.S. history and pride wrapped up in that city, from Andrew Jackson and the Battle of New Orleans in 1812 to the birth of New Orleans jazz.

As Louis pointed out, it would be like abandoning Venice to the lagoon, Tokyo to the earthquakes, Naples to Vesuvius and many more.