Lack of Preparedness

How many other U.S. members out there are shocked at the sloooooowwww response so far to Katrina? This has been little better than a third world response to a disaster so far and I'm appalled. I expected our rescue efforts and evacuation efforts to be in high gear as soon as the storm cleared. Instead it has been a trickle. At this rate it will be 4 weeks before they even clear out those sitting on their roofs or rubble. Many folks are going to die if we don't pick up the pace!

This is not a direct shot at Bush since I see this as a national organizational/preparedness issue, but I really expected a lot more organization at the Federal level. It's like the whole government really didn't get it until yesterday (Wednesday), and even today I'm not convinced they get it. How could we possibly hope to cope with any major security threat, when we can't respond to a disaster like this within a reasonable period? Answer, we can't! We had over 24 hours to get a jump on relief prep before the storm even hit.

The focus is on New Orleans, but the problem is just as bad throughout much of the region.

Some examples:
This morning folks can't do rescues because of security issues--where they heck is the military? They are supposed to secure things after events like this, the local authorities never have enough resources to do this.

A commandeered (stolen) bus got to the Astrodome fully loaded faster than any of the "official buses" that finally just arrived a few hours ago. They should put that 20 year old kid in charge of organizing the transport--he's doing a far better job. Why haven't the transports been moving rapidly for the past 24 hours (more like 48?) They should be getting waved through speedily, filling up and heading out. Instead it seems to be taking over 24 hours to move anywhere.

Where are the major evacuation centers to take folks to? Instead of giving some thought to this ahead of time, they are just now getting to it.

FEMA is just now starting to contact agencies about long term housing according to my personal contacts, but they won't really have much instructions until next Tuesday about how the agencies are allowed to react. I thought the need for that was obvious BEFORE the storm hit.

Foxnews make-up boy Shepherd Smith was commenting about folks in public housing not moving to the Superdome, as if the folks didn't understand. I think they understood quite well, why would they want to move? They have food and a bed at home in the upper stories. Those with camp stoves can still cook. I wouldn't move either, until I saw that people were actually being evacuated en masse. Afterall, the Fox reporters have been commenting that even people needing medical assistance can't get out at the moment.

I don't think you can lay this at any one person's feet, but I agree with you Red. What's more, it's frightening to think what our enemies have been learning about us in the past several days.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I don't think you can lay this at any one person's feet, but I agree with you Red. What's more, it's frightening to think what our enemies have been learning about us in the past several days.

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Don, I'm glad you took this right. Like you I'm not at all saying someone in particular screwed up, but I don't think our nation was at all prepared. It was pretty obvious to me on Sunday that this was the big one. I figured much more knowledgeable folks in FEMA and Homeland Security would pull out their disaster response books, and kick pre-existing systems into motion. Instead it looks like most of this is happening on-the-fly, in reactive mode.

Michael Chertoff should resign in disgrace - today.

He's already lying through his teeth to make himself look good. Scum.

"Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff denied reports that rescue efforts in New Orleans had been halted for security reasons Thursday, saying those operations "are continuing in full force."

And yet...

After a sniper opened fire on hospital staff at Charity Hospital, "The National Guard soldiers told staff to get away from the windows, and evacuations were halted."

In another area, "Evacuations by boat were halted after armed looters threatened medics, and overturned one of their boats."

Richard Zuschlag, president of Acadian Ambulance Service Inc., described the chaos at a suburban hospital. "We tried to airlift supplies into Kenner Memorial Hospital late last evening and were confronted by an unruly crowd with guns, and the pilots refused to land," he said.

Either Chertoff is an idiot or a liar or both. Homeland Security my ass. Maybe they should make him official Menace to Homeland Security. People are dying in the streets, dying on TV right in front of our eyes, in known locations and Chertoff is lying to cover his ass.

Well it didnt take long for someone to drag politics into this did it?

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He's already lying through his teeth to make himself look good. Scum.

"Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff denied reports that rescue efforts in New Orleans had been halted for security reasons Thursday, saying those operations "are continuing in full force."
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They are. Hes not talking about isolated instances.

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After a sniper opened fire on hospital staff at Charity Hospital, "The National Guard soldiers told staff to get away from the windows, and evacuations were halted."

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What would you suggest they had done here ?

Before we get to many people complaining about a slow response from the military or the lack of security being preformed by the military - some need to read up on the laws that regulate what the military can do inside the borders of this country.

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20 Stat. L., 145

June 18, 1878

CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for other purposes.

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

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What that means folks is that until congress authorizes the use of Active Duty Military its up to the civilian leadership of the city and state that is effected by such diasters.

Is FEMA on its ass - sure it is. But again one must understand how FEMA is suppose to work - before just taking potshots at the organization because of the magitude of the crisis.

http://www.fema.gov/

Like all beuraracies its prone to failures, mismanagement, and just flat out laziness until a crisis is upon them. Hopefully some much needed fixing is done to the system.

Having worked on a FEMA mission when I was in the Military - the process takes about 24-48 hours before FEMA resources are in place - that is why the first responders must be the city and state agencies at the site of the diaster or emergancy.

Before complaining about a system - try to insure you understand how it is suppose to work first.

The failure of handling the situation and not being prepared has a chain of events - most of it starts at the city level. New Orleans has for years had their own FEMA type agency tasked to evacuate the city when and if it is ever needed. What happen to their plan? Why did the Mayor not call for an evacuation of the city before the Hurricane was upon the city.

Why did the governor of the state not step in - when it became obvious that something terrible was coming their way.

Again its easy just blame the government at the Federal Level for the failure - but you only seeing 1/3 of the overall failure.

They reported that media are not being allowed in the Superdome because its turned into anarchy in there. There are murders, gang rapes, human remains and sewage all over the place. The cops wont go in.

Its important to ask important questions like Red has done, not make political hay in times of tradgedy.. *looks at Aenlic* Is also important to realize that this level of disaster is unprecidented for America, and mistakes will always be made.

The efforts cannot be sustained as long as we have roaming gangs with AKs attacking police stations and murdering people for the bread they looted. 10000 national guard troops are on their way and that number is expected to go up. If martial law is not already imposed, it should be done as soon as possible. Rescue workers are afraid to do their jobs.

I'm not trying to point the finger at any one person or level of government. As you point out Redleg, I'm woefully ignorant on how the process is supposed to work. All I can say is that somehow, some way, it's gotta work better than this. What's more, we've very publicly displayed a very exploitable weakness.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'm not trying to point the finger at any one person or level of government. As you point out Redleg, I'm woefully ignorant on how the process is supposed to work. All I can say is that somehow, some way, it's gotta work better than this. What's more, we've very publicly displayed a very exploitable weakness.

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i feel you are a little paranoid with the "showing weakness to our enemies" angle....

does this event show a particular weakness of America and the american government?...i think not....put any other major city in the planet under 9 feet of water and i doubt they would fair any better than new orleans has....

new orleans is in a geographic position that might make this situation a little worst....but there is hardly anything that can be done about that.

I’ll bet they had a detailed contingency plan all worked out, its in the desk drawer of the county commissioners desk, 6 feet underwater. NOT!

The elementary school down the road from me has better “incase of emergency” plans than they seem to have. I don’t want to kick um when they are down but could they have dropped the ball any worse. They live below sea level behind levies in an area ripe for hurricanes; I can’t believe they didn’t have an evacuation plan. How irresponsible if they didn’t. If they did, whoever drafted it should be kicked in the pants.

I am totally for keeping the federal government out of local issues but even they should have contingency plans for… well, just about everything. Someone should have been monitoring the situation and once the threat was recognized a response should have been made immediately. What a chance for the President, governor, a congressman or someone to take charge and ride to the rescue and really shine. Instead we have a bunch of rednecks with a stolen bus driving around saving people.

For a country with our resources, the preparation and response time has been pathetic.

The posse comitatus law doesn't apply to National Guard troops which can be used by the state Governor at his or her discretion in an emergency.

However, most of our National Guard troops aren't here. They're in Iraq. Go figure. Maybe that's the fault of the mayor of New Orleans too? ~D

People are dying in the streets in New Orleans, bodies are lying unrecovered and rotting all along the central Gulf Coast increasing the threat of cholera and typhus, people are beginning to run out of foood and clean water, snipers are rampaging in the streets, chaos reigns in the Superdome and Chertoff is doing his best impression of Kevin Bacon's character in Animal House during the final riot scene. Meanwhile, the governors and the mayors (who I might add, Redleg blamed for the levee problems in another thread), are screaming for help.

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However, most of our National Guard troops aren't here. They're in Iraq. Go figure.

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You better go figure making such ludicrous statements as that. Do you reall belive MOST of the national guard is in Iraq? How about half even? You would still be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

i feel you are a little paranoid with the "showing weakness to our enemies" angle....

does this event show a particular weakness of America and the american government?...i think not....put any other major city in the planet under 9 feet of water and i doubt they would fair any better than new orleans has....

new orleans is in a geographic position that might make this situation a little worst....but there is hardly anything that can be done about that.

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The Don is worried about how other cities might cope with another type of disaster. Say the water supply gets poisoned in LA. Would the city, state, and federal government act quickly enough to prevent riots, looting, and general chaos? This would be a unexpected attack, with less warning than Katrina gave New Orleans. Seeing the resulting chaos from Katrina, does this not give terrorists insight into the weaknesses of the governments response capability?

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Before we get to many people complaining about a slow response from the military or the lack of security being preformed by the military - some need to read up on the laws that regulate what the military can do inside the borders of this country.



What that means folks is that until congress authorizes the use of Active Duty Military its up to the civilian leadership of the city and state that is effected by such diasters.

Is FEMA on its ass - sure it is. But again one must understand how FEMA is suppose to work - before just taking potshots at the organization because of the magitude of the crisis.

http://www.fema.gov/

Like all beuraracies its prone to failures, mismanagement, and just flat out laziness until a crisis is upon them. Hopefully some much needed fixing is done to the system.

Having worked on a FEMA mission when I was in the Military - the process takes about 24-48 hours before FEMA resources are in place - that is why the first responders must be the city and state agencies at the site of the diaster or emergancy.

Before complaining about a system - try to insure you understand how it is suppose to work first.

The failure of handling the situation and not being prepared has a chain of events - most of it starts at the city level. New Orleans has for years had their own FEMA type agency tasked to evacuate the city when and if it is ever needed. What happen to their plan? Why did the Mayor not call for an evacuation of the city before the Hurricane was upon the city.

Why did the governor of the state not step in - when it became obvious that something terrible was coming their way.

Again its easy just blame the government at the Federal Level for the failure - but you only seeing 1/3 of the overall failure.

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I don't blame the military. It looked to me like (and still does) that nobody in civilian leadership (that would be a very short list) gave anyone military or guard the objective of evacuating survivors in X days. Civilian leadership is an issue. Some of that is political leadership (varying depending on what level and where), but others are existing non-political organs.

New Orleans did order mandatory evacuation fairly soon. They had ordered evacuation itself even earlier. They simply did not have enough time to get the people out. It wasn't just New Orleans, the whole are had the problem and were sharing many of the same exit routes.

There never has been a city that could do much about this sort of event sprung on them so rapidly. The resources at city level are not there, nor are they ever going to be. From what I saw New Orleans did a fairly good job in the first 24 yours after the storm hit. They were certainly more organized then many of their neighbors.

It was very clear before the storm hit that national resources would have to handle this. Waiting 24-48 hours was a recipe for disaster.

I'm not sure who had authority to bring in the Army/Marines, but since this is a matter of national security, I don't see why a rapid response force was not standing by and authorization requested ASAP. Trickling in the guard is not pragmatic and so far it has not been effective.

Looks to me like we have a system that doesn't allow for rapid response. Counting on a 48+ hour lag is not going to work for something of this magnitude.

A lot more is needed, like a temporary shelter plan by region, so that people can be moved out rapidly. Also a rapid evacuation commandeering of buses (with compensation) and other forms of mass transport. Much of the security issue would be absent if people had been moved out speedily on buses. Road links are available, although fewer than before.

What I'm seeing is a wait-and-see system that works in reactive mode. It's not that many of us don't want to help. Instead, there is no system in place for us to help.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

You better go figure making such ludicrous statements as that. Do you reall belive MOST of the national guard is in Iraq? How about half even? You would still be wrong.

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I was wrong in saying most, you are correct. I meant many. But, since you asked... ~D

Nationwide, only about 6% of the National Guard are in Iraq. But the federal government has only promised that at least half of any particular state's contingent will be guaranteed as available in the state. In the Gulf States, roughly 60% of the Guard is available for disaster relief; but not all at once or on short notice. That's a good figure. But that also means that 40% of the Guard are not available to the State for disaster relief. In both Mississippi and Louisiana, some 3000 Guard members for each state are in Iraq. Other states are having to fly in Guard to help now - some 11,000 from places like Tennessee. ;) Guard units that could not have been used prior to release by the federal government, which release wasn't forthcoming until yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'm not trying to point the finger at any one person or level of government. As you point out Redleg, I'm woefully ignorant on how the process is supposed to work. All I can say is that somehow, some way, it's gotta work better than this. What's more, we've very publicly displayed a very exploitable weakness.

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Yes indeed it was suppose to work better then what happened - a miserable failure on all levels in handling this emergancy.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I don't blame the military. It looked to me like (and still does) that nobody in civilian leadership (that would be a very short list) gave anyone military or guard the objective of evacuating survivors in X days. Civilian leadership is an issue. Some of that is political leadership (varying depending on what level and where), but others are existing non-political organs.

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Well I place most of my questions about evacution on the state. The governor should be asked some very tough questions.

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New Orleans did order mandatory evacuation fairly soon. They had ordered evacuation itself even earlier. They simply did not have enough time to get the people out. It wasn't just New Orleans, the whole are had the problem and were sharing many of the same exit routes.

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Yep I saw that to - that makes it a wonder why FEMA was not activated earlier. And On that premise I agree tough questions must be asked and answered by all levels of government in several states. Some of the problem however does lay outside of any government's control. Some people chose just not to evacuate, some could not afford to evacuate, etc. and then their is the limited road network in and out of the area.

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There never has been a city that could do much about this sort of event sprung on them so rapidly. The resources at city level are not there, nor are they ever going to be. From what I saw New Orleans did a fairly good job in the first 24 yours after the storm hit. They were certainly more organized then many of their neighbors.

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I would also agree with you here - that is why I believe the governor needs to be held responsible for not activiting state agencies to help the city in its evacuation. I wonder what was the city's plan and what was the state's plan to assist the city.

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It was very clear before the storm hit that national resources would have to handle this. Waiting 24-48 hours was a recipe for disaster.

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Actually would have to disagree - national resources have to come from somewhere, they have to be coordinated, they must be provided, all kinds of coordiantion must take place. Was there some time for federal assistance - indeed that might be some, but again it goes to the orginial point - did the state request from the Federal Government any assistance? Without knowing the answer to that question - it is extremely difficult to find fault with the FEMA system as I came to understand it - when I was assigned to 5th Army. 5th Army by the way has the military mission for any FEMA mission in Loiusiana and 1st Army will have that responsiblity on the East side of the Mississippi River.

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I'm not sure who had authority to bring in the Army/Marines, but since this is a matter of national security, I don't see why a rapid response force was not standing by and authorization requested ASAP. Trickling in the guard is not pragmatic and so far it has not been effective.

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Because for the military to be used within the boundries of the nation - it must be an act of congress or a declared martial law. Review the use of the 7th Infantry Division in the LA riots will provide the information needed to answer this question.

The State National Guard is under the direct control of the state except for when the Federal Government activaties the unit. The Governor of Louisina has a Mechnazied Infantry Brigade. ONe of the main missions of the National Guard is just such as is being done now.

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Looks to me like we have a system that doesn't allow for rapid response. Counting on a 48+ hour lag is not going to work for something of this magnitude.

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Yes indeed that is my feeling exactly - and it was my feeling when we had to assist FEMA in the floods that happen in San Antonio several years back. The failure of FEMA in being a rapid response agency has several smaller diasters that were never corrected. (at least that is my opinion from experience working with it)

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A lot more is needed, like a temporary shelter plan by region, so that people can be moved out rapidly. Also a rapid evacuation commandeering of buses (with compensation) and other forms of mass transport. Much of the security issue would be absent if people had been moved out speedily on buses. Road links are available, although fewer than before.

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That is beyond the scope of FEMA as I came to understand it - they might have changed under the new agency departmentalization - but it doesn't seem so to me as of yet.

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What I'm seeing is a wait-and-see system that works in reactive mode. It's not that many of us don't want to help. Instead, there is no system in place for us to help.

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Yes - I agree - my experience with FEMA is that it is a reactive agency - that must coordinate at the Federal Level to assist.

City and State governments are the first responders and the planners for thier area of the country.

I don't mean to sound callous, I do have great sympathy for the people suffering in New Orleans, but why are all these people surprised by what happened? Doesn't everyone and his grandmother know that living in that area is... problematic, as far as natural disasters go?

For example, is there anyone who would move to Alaska and be surprised when the first snow falls?

Or am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I don't mean to sound callous, I do have great sympathy for the people suffering in New Orleans, but why are all these people surprised by what happened? Doesn't everyone and his grandmother know that living in that area is... problematic, as far as natural disasters go?

For example, is there anyone who would move to Alaska and be surprised when the first snow falls?

Or am I missing something?

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Same could be said for the entire Gulf Coast. Unfortunately for us (since I live closer than I would like to it now) there is a tremendous amount of industry associated with it. And it is congested. Getting out is not easy, and some folks simply can't leave (including many emergency responders I suppose.) My own sister-in-law stayed put in Baton Rouge, while I would have left 24 hours before, when the track uncertainty was far greater. She was thinking about leaving but it was too late as the roads were jammed. I couldn't believe it when she called and said she was riding it out.

New Orleans had dodged the bullet before, and complacency had set in. Same for Mississippi, Alabama, etc. Some people thought they could ride it out. I saw picks of a few white middle class survivors in Mississippi who were saved only by the fact that their homes were in the shadow of a strong tall tower apartment complex. I don't think they appreciated the extremely low pressure, high winds, and storm surge associated with this one.

Many parts of Alaska's coasts are subject to tsunami's and large quakes as well. These can hit fast, and without immediate response (and in spite of it) the result could be quite similar. We had tsunami drills when I was working there and I've been through a few small (6.0, 6.1 etc.) quakes--that would be huge in many areas of the lower 48, but where I was they were mainly just annoyances and attention getters. It was the 7+ that we feared.

Hey, I'd rather live high and dry, but the money isn't there.

Martial law was declared in New Orleans on Tuesday, and given how rapidly the Congress and the Executive moved over the Terry Schiavo case the lack of urgency about this disaster seems rather disturbing.

The news media has in several cases used vans, SUV's, and pickup trucks to get into New Orleans only to find that they are the first and only one's there. Now many days later we still have reports of people who have yet to see any rescue personnel. Things are starting to improve but I honestly don't think they were well prepared for what had been predicted before the hurricane made landfall.

Redleg,

I think we agree on much of this, but this one clearly illustrates that the State authorities alone would be insufficient. It is far past what a state can manage to have its largest city and adjacent regions and infrastructure devastated like this. I'm counting nearly 20% of the State's population being in the effected zone. It clearly escalates to Federal level in the planning phase in my eyes.

What it points out to me is that for this and smaller disasters, we need a much more rapid deployment force (and national plan for civilian authorities), self sufficient, with their own communications, to deploy in the event of disaster within 24 hours. They would have to be requested by the states, but they would have plans for securing every major metropolitan area. To me this is a case of basic national preparedness. Events like this demonstrate vulnerabilities, and require some new thinking.

I have confidence in the military that if charged with a mission to evacuate folks, secure an area in X days, they will find a way to do it, or come back with a counter plan that is better/reasonable. They need to be given broad freedom and authority to fulfill a given mission though.

It's not just the Gulf Coast. The Atlantic coastal areas are asking for trouble as well.

The last time the area from New Orleans to Gulfport experienced a storm this big was 36 years ago. Since then, the entire area has exploded in terms of population and business development. The same is true for the entire seaboard from Brownsville, Texas to New York City, massive development with little to no thought given to the inevitability of hurricanes along that entire coast. It's like building on a fault line in California. It's not a matter of if it happens; it's a matter of when.

The situation in New Orleans was going to happen eventually, just because of where the city was located. The devastation along the rest of the central Gulf Coast was bound to happen. It's going to happen elsewhere too. Maybe next month, maybe year, maybe next decade.

We're only halfway through the hurricane season and tomorrow tropical depression 14 will become the 13th named storm of the season as Maria. Historically, the worst storms occur in September. Later in the season is when storms typically turn north earlier and hit the East Coast. The most tropical storms in one year for the Atlantic basin was 21. At the current rate, we could hit 26.

Mayors in places like Savannah, Charleston and Cape Hatteras had better be paying attention; because they will get hit - eventually. People who have purchased their lovely over-priced homes with a view on barrier islands all along the coast had better be paying attention as well. They really seem to act as if they're immune.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Redleg,

I think we agree on much of this, but this one clearly illustrates that the State authorities alone would be insufficient. It is far past what a state can manage to have its largest city and adjacent regions and infrastructure devastated like this. I'm counting nearly 20% of the State's population being in the effected zone. It clearly escalates to Federal level in the planning phase in my eyes.

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Yes indeed - and it requires a complete restructuring of the current way FEMA is organized and operates. If this emergancy does not show the necessity for the Federal Government to actually go beyond the reactionary mode of emergancy assistance nothing will. I made the mistake of one time questioning why FEMA and the military operates the way it does - I had a COL and an LTC give me a lecture of Posse Comiatis and how FEMA operates to make me vomit from the sheer bueararcy of the governmental functions as it relates to states. Congress is going to have to restructure some of the current laws.

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What it points out to me is that for this and smaller disasters, we need a much more rapid deployment force (and national plan for civilian authorities), self sufficient, with their own communications, to deploy in the event of disaster within 24 hours. They would have to be requested by the states, but they would have plans for securing every major metropolitan area. To me this is a case of basic national preparedness. Events like this demonstrate vulnerabilities, and require some new thinking.

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Couldn't agree more.

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I have confidence in the military that if charged with a mission to evacuate folks, secure an area in X days, they will find a way to do it, or come back with a counter plan that is better/reasonable. They need to be given broad freedom and authority to fulfill a given mission though.

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Yes indeed - but the Posse Comatais (SP) legistlation will have to be revoked - and something new will have to put in place. The reason for the law was because what happened after the completion of the Civil War - and the law needs to be reviewed very carefully to allow certain types of emergancy missions within the borders of the state to be handled by the military.

This is on the "showing weakness to our enemies" comments...

Over the last few years, several large and disturbing cracks in this country's infrastructure have appeared. The massive East Coast blackout, yearly devastating wildfires, 9/11, and now the Katrina disaster all show that there are many unguarded "targets of opportunity" in the US. After this disaster, anyone with a terrorist agenda has now pondered seeking the ability to rapidly strike these targets once they present themselves.

I might also be paranoid as well. Let's see. Ichi, if you happen to be reading this, what kind of destruction could a team of terrorists achieve by starting coordinated wildfires during the western dry season? Are people capable of this, or does this require more than just a matchbook? Do the fire departments have a plan for this kind of thing, or does it just get laughed at?

To illustrate my point - and I think it is yours also - at this site is current programs of FEMA


http://www.fema.gov/regions/vi/programs.shtm

Typical bueraracy shortfalls and problems in how it is set up to do planning and prevention

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Mitigation

Hazard Mitigation Grant Program (HMGP)
Flood Mitigation Assistance (FMA)
Hazard Mitigation Overview, (19MB MS PowerPoint 97)
Community Mitigation (CM)

Preparedness

Chemical Stockpile Emergency Preparedness Program (CSEPP)
HAZMAT/CHER-CAP
HAZMAT Exercise Benefits Responders And Citizens Of Benton County, AR
CHER-CAP Initiative
Radiological Emergency Preparedness (REP)
State/Local/Tribal
Response & Recovery

Human Services (HS)
Human Service Overview, (4.6MB MS PowerPoint 97)
Infrastructure (PA)
Operations & Planning
An Overview of FEMA, (5MB MS PowerPoint 97)
Administration and Resource Planning

Information Systems
Program Services

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If nothing else its beginning to piss me off more about FEMA then I was when dealing with them in 1999. FEMA is more about handling out money after the emergancy has occured then preparing for and helping cities and states prepare and plan for problems.

And people wonder why it takes 24-48 hours for FEMA to get moving. Its a typical governmental bueraracy.

And one we can not just blame President Bush for - it was worse in 1999. It took 48 hours to get the resources together to assist San Antonio with their limited flooding.

Nothing ever changes with the Federal Government - regardless of who or what party is in control.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Or am I missing something?

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I have (had) similar questions during this whole episode, but I guess what it comes down to is you and I don't know Jack Split about how things are organised over there. What I do know is I admire the way in which Redleg and Red Harvest are discussing these matters and cutting through the rhetoric to get at the core of the (bureaucratic) obstacles. I have no comments, but I read all their stuff with great interest.

The Keystone Cops Meet Katrina

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Originally Posted by Redleg

And people wonder why it takes 24-48 hours for FEMA to get moving. Its a typical governmental bueraracy.

And one we can not just blame President Bush for - it was worse in 1999. It took 48 hours to get the resources together to assist San Antonio with their limited flooding.

Nothing ever changes with the Federal Government - regardless of who or what party is in control.

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The long range stuff needs to be separate from the short range. Yes, we need FEMA to work on the long term items. Short term, evacuation/rescue, temporary shelter are "perishable" items need a different approach, otherwise you have the bureaucracy in the way.

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SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws,

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Isn't this stating that the Army will not be used in the place of law enforcement?

Howabout rescue work and engineering?

I'm not impressed with the goingson so far at all, starting with FEMA, the Homeland Sec, and the Mayor.

Still, how the hell do you wind up being prepared for something like this?

It's not like this is run of the mill or routine. In fact, it's so devestating and horrific that everyone is upset. Since everyone is upset, they're angry that things aren't being rectified quickly enough. But if it wasn't devestating and horrific, no one would be this upset in the first place. Can't win situation for the rescue effort.

Btw, I am starting to become a little angry with the 'Hey, the news is full of it. Nothing will happen here in Nahleans. I'm staying!' crowd.

When you ignore warnings of the most destructive storm in ages about to hit your ill-prepared city, don't get on TV and start complaining that no one is rushing to save you and you're family.

I think a proper evacuation was in order. That really should have been done IMO.

I'm really bothered by the lack of security at the big shelter areas themselves, not to mention the apparent lack of water.

WTF? You've got people in a hot un-airconditioned building in New Orleans in summer from Sunday to Thursday and you can't supply them with water from outside the city at least? Remember people were initially sheltering on Sunday for the Monday morning storm. And the hospitals still not having fuel for generators? Every level is failing at this point. Sniping or not, that's why the guard is there, get it done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

When you ignore warnings of the most destructive storm in ages about to hit your ill-prepared city, don't get on TV and start complaining that no one is rushing to save you and you're family.

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My lady, over the past two days you have been lashing out in all directions to the effect that foreigners, Americans and Nahleanseans now all bear the marks of your razor-sharp nails. If I were you, I would make an exception for the Nahleansean victims and not add to their present burden by accusing them of a lack of foresight where most local, State and Federal authorities clearly showed very little or no foresight at all.

'Fish always rot from head down' (Charlie Chan)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by _Martyr_

I think a proper evacuation was in order. That really should have been done IMO.

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Quite a few could not get out. The roads were packed when I was checking the webcam. Tourists were stranded, no flights, no rental vehicles. Some residents had no transport (hence the busing to the Superdome, which was organized.) Folks in hospitals and such could not be moved. There are a large number who didn't chose to leave, but even best case getting this many out in such a short time is unlikely. People want out badly now, and still can't get out...

The original 1878 Act was meant to stop federal troops from supervising elections in the former Confederate states, and only covered the Army. It was expanded in 1956 to cover the Air Force as well. Oddly, the Navy and Marines are not subject to the Act itself, but were added solely under a Department of Defense regulation.

Congress may authorize such use, overriding the Act.

The National Guard is exempt from the Act, except when federalized. For example, the National Guard units called up for the Iraq War would have to officially stand down from that call up after returning before being used for any type of law enforcement.

The Act also allows the use of Army and Air Force troops in cases of domestic civil violence, such as riots. I think a case could also be made for the situation in New Orleans falling under such a provision.

The President can waive the Act in a declared state of emergency. Such would also seem to be allowable in the current situation. It doesn't have to be a declaration of martial law, just a declared emergency.

There are some other provisions which aren't relevant, such as those regarding military assistance to the Coast Guard in drug-smuggling law enforcement activities and a specific use allowing the Attorney General to request assistance from the Secretary of Defense for troops to be used as law enforcement in situations involving the use of a nuclear or radiological weapon on U.S. territory.

The Act has nothing to say regarding the use of the federal military for relief efforts, rescue work and the like. It only restricts the use of federal troops for law enforcement. As for engineering, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was already tasked with the levee repairs. Flood control is one of their main peace-times jobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Same could be said for the entire Gulf Coast. Unfortunately for us (since I live closer than I would like to it now) there is a tremendous amount of industry associated with it. And it is congested. Getting out is not easy, and some folks simply can't leave (including many emergency responders I suppose.) My own sister-in-law stayed put in Baton Rouge, while I would have left 24 hours before, when the track uncertainty was far greater. She was thinking about leaving but it was too late as the roads were jammed. I couldn't believe it when she called and said she was riding it out.

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I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my post. I meant why would anyone live there in the first place?

I've seen film of people in Florida who just moved there from some nice safe environment and a year later, when a hurricane tears their house into splinters, you see them crying on the TV "How could this happen?"

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because you live in a hurricane infested zone eh?!?

Again, I don't mean to be callous, but why would anyone chose to live in a place that sees a dozen hurricanes tear through each and every year? If you want to keep your family safe, shouldn't you pick your environment better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Isn't this stating that the Army will not be used in the place of law enforcement?

Howabout rescue work and engineering?

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The law is often applied incorrectly - even by the military. Primarily it is suppose to keep the military out of civil law enforcement.

The act does not prevent the military from providing assistance in the recovery effort - for examble providing aircraft and personal to conduct rescue operations does not fall withing the scope of the act. However directing traffic places the military in direct conflict with the act. Having the military order people to evacuate without certain conditions being might also constitutes a violation. However the active military is often left out because of other resources are suppose to be available to each state in their planning process


http://law.wustl.edu/WULQ/75-2/752-10.html

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/jour...Trebilcock.htm

The conclusion at the end of the homeland security link for the subject. Read the link its a short read and very informative on the act - if your not aware of what it is.

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Is the Posse Comitatus Act totally without meaning today? No, it remains a deterrent to prevent the unauthorized deployment of troops at the local level in response to what is purely a civilian law enforcement matter. Although no person has ever been successfully prosecuted under the act, it is available in criminal or administrative proceedings to punish a lower-level commander who uses military forces to pursue a common felon or to conduct sobriety checkpoints off of a federal military post. Officers have had their careers abruptly brought to a close by misusing federal military assets to support a purely civilian criminal matter.

But does the act present a major barrier at the National Command Authority level to use of military forces in the battle against terrorism? The numerous exceptions and policy shifts carried out over the past 20 years strongly indicate that it does not. Could anyone seriously suggest that it is appropriate to use the military to interdict drugs and illegal aliens but preclude the military from countering terrorist threats that employ weapons of mass destruction? For two decades the military has been increasingly used as an auxiliary to civilian law enforcement when the capabilities of the police have been exceeded. Under both the statutory and constitutional exceptions that have permitted the use of the military in law enforcement since 1980, the president has ample authority to employ the military in homeland defense against the threat of weapons of mass destruction in terrorist hands.

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It seems that I am slightly behind the times in my understanding of the act. Which would indicitate to me that the beuraracy of the Homeland Security department and FEMA are in need of major overhaul to insure they have a more timely response plan - and are more active in the prevention of large scale loss of human life - by actualling linking some of the larger cities with the Military support to conduct evacuation through the states that city and the military base are in.

For instance Fort Polk and the Military assests there could of been used in the evacuation plan of New Orleans if it was part of the process - instead of ignored or only used as part of the FEMA process. Allow the state agency to coordinate directly for resources with the military base. The Federal agency only needs to become involved to bless the plan after it has been coordinated and rehearsed by both the military and the city.


On Homeland Security and its planning and response - a little research while at work - is beginning to point some major problems with the bueruarcy (SP) that is the department of homeland security - it seems it is borrowing from the FEMA handbook and is only focusing on response not preparing and planning.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display...4&content=4264

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The National Response Plan establishes a comprehensive all-hazards approach to enhance the ability of the United States to manage domestic incidents. The plan incorporates best practices and procedures from incident management disciplines—homeland security, emergency management, law enforcement, firefighting, public works, public health, responder and recovery worker health and safety, emergency medical services, and the private sector—and integrates them into a unified structure. It forms the basis of how the federal government coordinates with state, local, and tribal governments and the private sector during incidents. It establishes protocols to help

Save lives and protect the health and safety of the public, responders, and recovery workers;
Ensure security of the homeland;
Prevent an imminent incident, including acts of terrorism, from occurring;
Protect and restore critical infrastructure and key resources;
Conduct law enforcement investigations to resolve the incident, apprehend the perpetrators, and collect and preserve evidence for prosecution and/or attribution;
Protect property and mitigate damages and impacts to individuals, communities, and the environment; and
Facilitate recovery of individuals, families, businesses, governments, and the environment.

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Now while I stated earlier that all 3 levels of government failed in their responsiblities to take care of thier citizens - it seems that again the governmental bueararcy (SP) as it goes up the chain of command - ie City, State, Federal - continue to all give lip service to the concept - and not actually fullfil their stated mission objectives. Even the Homeland Security website primarily talks about responding - not planning and preparing.

Absolutely - no cooperation or coordination between the three levels of government. Looks like each one washed their hands of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my post. I meant why would anyone live there in the first place?

I've seen film of people in Florida who just moved there from some nice safe environment and a year later, when a hurricane tears their house into splinters, you see them crying on the TV "How could this happen?"

Gee, I don't know. Maybe because you live in a hurricane infested zone eh?!?

Again, I don't mean to be callous, but why would anyone chose to live in a place that sees a dozen hurricanes tear through each and every year? If you want to keep your family safe, shouldn't you pick your environment better?

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Some people want to live on the beach no matter the risk. Ports are busy and they support massive industry. People go where the jobs are. Others have lived there for a very long time, born and raised there.

Massive hurricanes don't hit all of these areas frequently. It is luck of the draw like 100 year floods. New Orleans has been where it is for 100's of years. If you want to avoid hurricane risk altogether you will have to depopulate the coast from Nicaragua to North Carolina. Not sure how many tens of millions of people that would be (or more.)

My last duty assignment - happen to be with the one of the units assigned to this command.

http://www.5tharmy.army.mil/

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Fifth U.S. Army sends team to assess Katrina's impact
by Margaret Broadbent
Fifth U.S. Army Public Affairs

FORT SAM HOUSTON , Texas – Twenty-one members of the Fifth U.S. Army headed to Baton Rouge , Louisiana , today, to assess relief efforts in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. The Fifth U.S. Army area of responsibility covers a 21-state area west of the Mississippi , which includes Louisiana .

Brig. Gen. Mark A. Graham, the newly installed Fifth U.S. Army deputy commanding general, led the contingent to provide additional support to the Defense Coordinating Officer. The DCO is part of the support to FEMA and other state and local agencies responding to this catastrophic situation.

When FEMA requests help, the DCO and his element, from the 4 th Brigade, 75th Division, Fort Sill , Okla. , coordinate Department of Defense resources to assist civil authorities in Louisiana .

When local and state resources are exhausted, the DoD can bring unique capabilities to assist in restoring life support systems to the community. Examples include distributing food or supplies, providing clean water, establishing safe shelters, restoring communications, mitigating damage, or assisting in disease prevention.

Currently, the DCO is working closely with his First Army counterpart on the eastern half of the United States . The First Army's “Joint Task Force Katrina” has the responsibility for coordinating overall DoD relief efforts in the affected areas. Both the Fifth and First Armies fall under the control of Northern Command in Colorado during this disaster.

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Notice how this applies to the discussion so far - I highlighted the part that is important to the discussion.
This is of course the military interpation of how FEMA and thier role in the process is to be done.

More reading about how the military is allowed to function within the scope of civilian assistance

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/jour...les/Lawlor.htm

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...tml/302515.htm

The reading all points to the civilian authority has to ask for assistance before the military can provide anything.

I don't think this is an American thing. We saw the same during the tsunami around the world. I think you can conclude it in 2 points:

1. People need to have somebody to blame, most natural is the government or a countrys highest office.

2. No politicians will ever be prepared for catastrophies. It's just not in the nature of a government to expect the unexpected.

Organisations like Red Cross are really needed in situations like this. All people with experience in these kind of situation should be kept in a "global" prepareness, since they would be able to react immediately and correctly. I would like to mention UN here, but will not since this debate should not be about that.

Bottomline. Surely US government is slow and unprepared, but its not something they are alone with. Any president, any government would have the same problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by _Martyr_

I think a proper evacuation was in order. That really should have been done IMO.

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There was one only problem was the people who staye dwrent rich or middle class they were poor poor as dirt some of them still reeling from the effects of the civil war no telling how long this will take :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

My lady, over the past two days you have been lashing out in all directions to the effect that foreigners, Americans and Nahleanseans now all bear the marks of your razor-sharp nails.

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If I could only find a connection, the paper cups would be hearing about it from me too.

I'm a bit emotionally charged over a city that I loved so much being washed away. (That city's where I got my custom member title from.)

I miss the 'Nolia already.

Redleg,

Clearly nobody wants the military throwing their weight around uninvited. Hence the restrictions and requirement for State requests. Some of that is a holdover from "States Rights" arguments understandably.

I think we need to make these resources available early on, in the planning stage where they can provide some excellent guidance. Nobody in the world has the logistical/engineering capabilities of our regular forces, nor the experience in planning for out of the norm situations with damaged infrastructure. To me it makes sense to use them as the initial preparation and evacuation/rescue/security/relief response with the clear intent of coordinating with local authorities already in place who can help assess.

I tend to get into dreamer mode, but speed of response is what is needed. The potential for people waiting for several days without water in designated shelters screams for a more active role by the military. We can do a lot more good quickly if the military can prop up the mangled infrastructure, supply and security long enough for civil authorities to catch their breath and come up with a plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Redleg,

Clearly nobody wants the military throwing their weight around uninvited. Hence the restrictions and requirement for State requests. Some of that is a holdover from "States Rights" arguments understandably.

I think we need to make these resources available early on, in the planning stage where they can provide some excellent guidance. Nobody in the world has the logistical/engineering capabilities of our regular forces, nor the experience in planning for out of the norm situations with damaged infrastructure. To me it makes sense to use them as the initial preparation and evacuation/rescue/security/relief response with the clear intent of coordinating with local authorities already in place who can help assess.

I tend to get into dreamer mode, but speed of response is what is needed. The potential for people waiting for several days without water in designated shelters screams for a more active role by the military. We can do a lot more good quickly if the military can prop up the mangled infrastructure, supply and security long enough for civil authorities to catch their breath and come up with a plan.

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Don't get me wrong - I agree with alot in concept of what you are saying. The whole process has been found lacking in planning and preparing for a diaster of any magitude. And I believe you are on the right track on your thoughts - however to do what you are suggesting would require our Congress to draft new legislation (and it is needed btw for both the Posse and the Military Assistance to Civilian) that clearly spells out the mission and the role of the military in such efforts.

The more I think of it the more I like the thought of having the Active Duty military base of each state - and in some cases the Military base near several states - having the ability to be in direct coordination on a planning and preparing basis with the State agency in charge of emerancy planning and response - and cut FEMA out of the loop other then as a purely oversight agency of the Military Mission. This way the Governor of the state in need can immediately can for Military Assistance - skipping several levels of bueraracy. Spefic guidelines would however need to be establish so that the military is not overused for things the state should be able to handle on their own.

A few points:

First, the way the Superbowl situation has been handled is inexcusable. That was a known, pre-planned gathering location for approximately 15,000 desperate people. Their situation was known since Monday, but there seems to have been no effective policing provided, no on-site organization or regimentation of the population (hey, I had a Jesse Jackson moment ~D), and no adequate measures to provide food, water, sanitation, or any other necessities.

The National Guard should have had that facility under control by Tuesday, or early Wednesday at the latest.

As for the population that was not able to leave New Orleans in time... while some of them chose to stay out of ignorance, the vast majority of those who stayed just didn't have the resources to leave. The population of New Orleans is predominantly black and poor. Many of its citizens don't own cars, couldn't get on other forms of transportation, and wouldn't have had anywhere else to stay. Not everybody could afford to hop in their land cruiser and drive to Florida or Texas to find a hotel room to stay in for the next three months.

What is really shameful about this whole episode is that it shows just how little work has really been done on "Homeland Security" in the FOUR YEARS since 9/11.

The prospect of a major hurricane destroying New Orleans was a high probability disaster... one I discussed in great detail three years ago at a business conference with a friend from Baton Rouge! It was considered the third most likely disaster that the US might have to face. Yet nothing was done to prepare for the probability that we might have to face this situation.

If the administration was serious about "Homeland Security" and dealing with potential national disasters, it had FOUR YEARS to put together an improved emergency response. Yet it's clear from this disaster that there was no planning done in the interim and we've been caught completely flat-footed.

Inexcusable, but expected considering that this is the same crew that invaded Iraq without having an occupation plan in place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aurelian

A few points:

First, the way the Superbowl situation has been handled is inexcusable. That was a known, pre-planned gathering location for approximately 15,000 desperate people. Their situation was known since Monday, but there seems to have been no effective policing provided, no on-site organization or regimentation of the population (hey, I had a Jesse Jackson moment ~D), and no adequate measures to provide food, water, sanitation, or any other necessities.

The National Guard should have had that facility under control by Tuesday, or early Wednesday at the latest.

As for the population that was not able to leave New Orleans in time... while some of them chose to stay out of ignorance, the vast majority of those who stayed just didn't have the resources to leave. The population of New Orleans is predominantly black and poor. Many of its citizens don't own cars, couldn't get on other forms of transportation, and wouldn't have had anywhere else to stay. Not everybody could afford to hop in their land cruiser and drive to Florida or Texas to find a hotel room to stay in for the next three months.

What is really shameful about this whole episode is that it shows just how little work has really been done on "Homeland Security" in the FOUR YEARS since 9/11.

The prospect of a major hurricane destroying New Orleans was a high probability disaster... one I discussed in great detail three years ago at a business conference with a friend from Baton Rouge! It was considered the third most likely disaster that the US might have to face. Yet nothing was done to prepare for the probability that we might have to face this situation.

If the administration was serious about "Homeland Security" and dealing with potential national disasters, it had FOUR YEARS to put together an improved emergency response. Yet it's clear from this disaster that there was no planning done in the interim and we've been caught completely flat-footed.

Inexcusable, but expected considering that this is the same crew that invaded Iraq without having an occupation plan in place.

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A. Its the SuperDOME, not Superbowl. (But it is also the home of the Sugarbowl once a year).

B. What exactly does terrorism have to do with a hurricane? You think al Qaeda made it?

How exactly is this administration at fault for not perfecting an emergency plan for a city that has been populated for at least 250 years? Shouldn't that be up to the city and the state? Blaming Bush for not having a program set up to evacuate a city (even if it is #3 most likely disaster [who the heck came up with THAT list?]) is asinine. The city was living on borrowed time, by looking at the landscape everyone knew that.

Actually... having a Federal plan in place for emergencies would be nice. I demand one be put into place to evacuate me from my house in case of a tornado! Or if my roomate rips off a big one...

C. Expecting the federal government to solve all your problems is one way to approach life. If you really want to enjoy that kind of life... I know of 4 countries right off the top of my head that can help you out with that.

FOUR YEARS. Just wanted to add one more for effect.

Azi

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What exactly does terrorism have to do with a hurricane? You think al Qaeda made it?

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Yes and I know how. It was with the help of the French as usual. You have all heard of La Machine?

http://i6.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/d5/1e/42_2.JPG

Well they sold one to AQ and they modified it into the Ah-lah Machine and use it to whip up hurricanes. Im trying to find a picture of it also.

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When The Levee Breaks - Memphis Minnie

If it keeps on rainin', levee's
goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break

And the water gonna come in, have no place to stay
Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan
Well all last night I sat on the levee and moan
Thinkin' 'bout my baby and my happy home
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin', levee's goin' to break
And all these people have no place to stay
Now look here mama what am I to do
Now look here mama what am I to do
I ain't got nobody to tell my troubles to
I works on the levee mama both night and day
I works on the levee mama both night and day
I ain't got nobody, keep the water away
Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good
Oh cryin' won't help you, prayin' won't do no good
When the levee breaks, mama, you got to lose
I works on the levee, mama both night and day
I works on the levee, mama both night and day
I works so hard, to keep the water away
I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me
I had a woman, she wouldn't do for me
I'm goin' back to my used to be
I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan
I's a mean old levee, cause me to weep and moan
Gonna leave my baby, and my happy home

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With the social layer dissolved, the people regresses back to survival mode.

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Outside a looted Rite-Aid drugstore, some people were anxious to show they needed what they were taking. A gray-haired man who would not give his name pulled up his T-shirt to show a surgery scar and explained that he needs pads for incontinence.

"I'm a Christian. I feel bad going in there," he said.

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Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.

"They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

How exactly is this administration at fault for not perfecting an emergency plan for a city that has been populated for at least 250 years? Shouldn't that be up to the city and the state? Blaming Bush for not having a program set up to evacuate a city (even if it is #3 most likely disaster [who the heck came up with THAT list?]) is asinine. The city was living on borrowed time, by looking at the landscape everyone knew that.

Actually... having a Federal plan in place for emergencies would be nice. I demand one be put into place to evacuate me from my house in case of a tornado! Or if my roomate rips off a big one...

C. Expecting the federal government to solve all your problems is one way to approach life. If you really want to enjoy that kind of life... I know of 4 countries right off the top of my head that can help you out with that.

FOUR YEARS. Just wanted to add one more for effect.

Azi

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Azi-

If you believe that then you haven't been paying attention to the thread. Nobody, and I mean nobody, could expect to pull themselves up by the bootstraps if hit this hard. Trying to lay this on the city? Want to do the same for Biloxi, or Gulfport? Or Bay St. Louis or any other areas that were smashed? They have no gas or electric or phone or home and often no vehicle, but at least they are not trapped in rising sewage levels. They are mad as well. Fortunately for them most are not now flooded, so by comparison they have it "better"--except that many of them also are upset by having no chance of rescue/evacuation at the moment, little food, and little water.

While I'm not ready to assign political blame I am very concerned about the complete inadequacy this shows for dealing with a serious metropolitan crisis anywhere in the country. Yes, after four years of focus on homeland security I do expect the system to perform much better under trial by fire, especially when it has warning. Our national response is inadequate. Those of us wanting to help are frustrated, as are the victims. Looking at it, I can't see much evidence that the 4 years since 9/11 better prepared us for this emergency response.

If you look back at other hurricanes you will find 10's of thousands of guardsmen called up as well, as well as FEMA efforts, etc. They merely have not had as much continuing and immediate crisis as this one.

Try reading the National Response Plan.

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlib...RPbaseplan.pdf

And then read some of the pre-2001 FEMA documents - you will see a similiar pattern in both. The Federal response is always after the fact - its the city and state that must prepare and plan for the welfare of thier citizens in a crisis.

The system is broke and has been broke for many years - not a single adminstration has ever done more then lip service. Does it surprise that new Department of Homeland Security failed to provide fast immediate response to the diaster - not at all - the system is designed in such a way by layers of beurarcy (SP) to take many hours to make a plan - and then the preparation and organizing phase takes time also.

Its always been a terrible slow process - mobilizing FEMA - that is why it clearly states in the National Response Plan and in almost every document I have personally seen - that the initial response is always the responsiblity of the local authority - followed by the state resources The Federal portion is to provide assistance and support once all local and state resources have been identified and task - and the Federal system then kicks in to provide those resources the state needs.

That was the pre-2001 FEMA plan - and in my initial reading of the Homeland Security NRP - the same thing is stated.

Every other diaster that has hit the United States in the last 20 years - has never prepared the system nor placed such a strain on the response plan as this event.

There is no off the shelf plan that states if A happens then do B.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

If I could only find a connection, the paper cups would be hearing about it from me too. I'm a bit emotionally charged over a city that I loved so much being washed away. (That city's where I got my custom member title from.) I miss the 'Nolia already.

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I understand. Consider all cups crushed. :bow:

Redleg,

Yes this has been one of my concerns about the Homeland Security push. Rather than really doing things better, we are just changing the names of the same old thing.

It looks to me like the whole concept is upside down for "the big ones." The reactive mode just isn't going to work for them. Surely we can do this better, we've got the resources, we have people with the skills.

I'm used to operating plant response plans, all our written docs for handling various identified emergencies in the plants. They worked well since we had the steps spelled out and were all pulling the same way. We could and did improvise as needed, but the framework was there. Of course...they didn't help much back in the older days (before me) when plants actually blew up and levelled building. Similar thing here. The locals can do well with the emergencies up to a point, but past initial evacuation you must assume their self help capacity will be nearly destroyed or seriously compromised.

The worst minor emergency experiences I've had were in areas like Engineering corporate offices when we had gas leaks, brownouts, or other events. Why? They had no plan, so all the chiefs stood there not knowing what to do. Meanwhile, those of us with initiative would start shutting systems down, check out other systems, kill the HVAC, and start giving instructions to those with the "deer caught in the headlights" look. It was amusing once in a new building when we lost power, the backup generator didn't kick on and we had to evacuate from the 7th floor through a pitch black winding stairwell that none of us had ever been on. No flashlights--fortunately, we had laptops. :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Redleg,

Yes this has been one of my concerns about the Homeland Security push. Rather than really doing things better, we are just changing the names of the same old thing.

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That is true - most likely it comes from the fact that Homeland Security is really not a new department - but the joining together of a bunch of other beuraracy under one umbrella to make a worse beuraracy. Time to scrape it and rebuild the department from scratch.

Quote:

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It looks to me like the whole concept is upside down for "the big ones." The reactive mode just isn't going to work for them. Surely we can do this better, we've got the resources, we have people with the skills.

---

I agree - we just got to get congress to change the laws that leave the military out of the active planning process for crisis involving the civil areas.
Now I don't want the military being in charge of civil operations - but if the Mayor of New Orleans could of talked directly to the commander of Ft. Polk to arrange for military transport of citizens - I wonder if more people could have been evacuated.

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I'm used to operating plant response plans, all our written docs for handling various identified emergencies in the plants. They worked well since we had the steps spelled out and were all pulling the same way. We could and did improvise as needed, but the framework was there. Of course...they didn't help much back in the older days (before me) when plants actually blew up and levelled building. Similar thing here. The locals can do well with the emergencies up to a point, but past initial evacuation you must assume their self help capacity will be nearly destroyed or seriously compromised.

The worst minor emergency experiences I've had were in areas like Engineering corporate offices when we had gas leaks, brownouts, or other events. Why? They had no plan, so all the chiefs stood there not knowing what to do. Meanwhile, those of us with initiative would start shutting systems down, check out other systems, kill the HVAC, and start giving instructions to those with the "deer caught in the headlights" look. It was amusing once in a new building when we lost power, the backup generator didn't kick on and we had to evacuate from the 7th floor through a pitch black winding stairwell that none of us had ever been on. No flashlights--fortunately, we had laptops. :thumbsup:

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Well I was involved in three Military support of civil affairs. Two forest fires and the San Antonio floods. The forest fire ones actually went real well - the agency that handles forest fires - has an excellent interface with the military (A possible model to expound and expand on maybe?) All they need from the Federal Government is a Federal diaster area declared and it starts right away - direct liason between the post tasked to help and the forest agency.

The San Antonio Floods of 1998-99 timeframe shows on a small scale both the success of military involvment in helping solve the crisis - and the failure of FEMA to provide a rapid response.

While researching another topic in the forum - I discovered I have made an error in one of my assumptions - that the state of Lousiana had the enhanced Seperate Infantry Brigade still in the state available for the governor to use as the immediate response for a state emergancy - this was incorrect on my part.

It seems that I have lost track of which units are deployed - it seems that the 256th Infantry Brigade is currently in Iraq. This takes about half of the available manpower for the state of Lousiana to respond to state emergancies.

Another item that should of been addressed by the homeland security department - and in this I find more fault with the way the Federal system is managed - if the Federal Government is taking resources from the state - it must provide contigencies to supplement the state in case of emergencies such as this.

So while the City government in my view still failed terriblily - the state government's ability to respond has been hampered by Federal Government with no planning done to provide the state with possible resources to prepare for such an emergancy. While the state still had the state police and several smaller guard units - the available immediate manpower of the state to respond to an emergency of this significance was cut in my estimate by at least 25% to maybe even 50%. More importantly several key resources were unavailable such as military trucks.

This makes it even more important to restructure how the Military is allowed to function during civil emergancies and diasters.

You weren't entirely wrong, Redleg. I don't think all of the 256th has been deployed yet. They were being sent in staggered sections, by company I believe.

Only about 3000 Louisiana Guard are in Iraq. The governor supposedly had 3500 Guard ready to deploy to New Orleans and another 3000 on standby. So that means, just using those numbers, that only about 1/3 of the state's ready Guard were deployed to Iraq. The feds have made an official promise that no state will have more than 1/2 of its Guard forces sent to Iraq, and the numbers are actually closer to less than 1/3 in most states being sent to Iraq.

One of the glaring things that struck me yesterday, was when the head of FEMA, whose name escapes me at the moment, was asked pointedly by a reporter about the mayhem and lawlessness and how that would affect FEMAs efforts, he said that FEMA was not involved in law enforcement. As if it was just that simple. It speaks to a very large gap in command and control. FEMA can't just begin relief operations without protection. So who is in charge? Serious lack of coordination there.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

You weren't entirely wrong, Redleg. I don't think all of the 256th has been deployed yet. They were being sent in staggered sections, by company I believe.

Only about 3000 Louisiana Guard are in Iraq. The governor supposedly had 3500 Guard ready to deploy to New Orleans and another 3000 on standby. So that means, just using those numbers, that only about 1/3 of the state's ready Guard were deployed to Iraq. The feds have made an official promise that no state will have more than 1/2 of its Guard forces sent to Iraq, and the numbers are actually closer to less than 1/3 in most states being sent to Iraq.

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Well it seems that my base assumption is still on track mostly then. The governor still needs to get fired by the citizens of Louisana during the next election process.

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One of the glaring things that struck me yesterday, was when the head of FEMA, whose name escapes me at the moment, was asked pointedly by a reporter about the mayhem and lawlessness and how that would affect FEMAs efforts, he said that FEMA was not involved in law enforcement. As if it was just that simple. It speaks to a very large gap in command and control. FEMA can't just begin relief operations without protection. So who is in charge? Serious lack of coordination there.

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Yes indeed - that is exactly how it was in 1999 - FEMA does not take charge of anything - it only attempts to provide resources and coordination for the state or city agency handling the emergancy. We need to push the government to change this procedure - and when diaster hits to the point that the city or state can not handle it - the Federal Government steps in with the military and all the resources at its disposal. I am getting more and more convinced that the Posse Comitias law must be revoked - and a new one legislated so that in certain condtions the military has the authority to act under the direction of a civil authority.

Does anyone have an idea how much people there still is in New Orleans?Why arent the people forced to evacuote?

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

Does anyone have an idea how much people there still is in New Orleans?Why arent the people forced to evacuote?

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I believe that is part of the issue and the problem - no one knows for sure. And the city was evacuted - but it seems that city government ordered the evacuation but relied on individual citizens to evacuate themselves. Or that is my impression of how the events have gone.

And is I believe the scope of why this discussion was started

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

Why arent the people forced to evacuote?

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The evacuation was ordered. Apparently the roads were blocked, many people couldn't get to safety and decided to stay, go to the Dome, squat in hotels, whatever. Of course some never intended to leave in the first place - shop owners, gangs, elderly -- and those will be hard to dislodge in the present mayhem.

So does anyone have a clue for how long it takes to pump the water out of the city?Because if people are confined in buildings without supplies it will turn out to be a jungle.I think that the marshall law was a good step but if they wont evacuote the rest of the population you are going to face anarchy there sometime soon.

The only thing I know for sure about the New Orleans pump system is a show I saw about it some time back. The pumps can handle rainfall up to 3 inches per hour - when they are all working. They aren't all working now; and the volume of water is too large for those that are still working. Some were damaged in the storm. It will be some days before the pump system can handle the water that is there. The Army Corps of Engineers is talking about blasting holes in the levees in areas away from the Lake, to allow some of the water to drain out, so the pumps can start working again.

And Redleg, be very wary of calling for a repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act. Many people to the right and left of the political spectrum have been calling for it to be strengthened since the fiasco in Waco, Texas. The lines got blurred there more than a little bit. The emotions of that disaster caused people to lean for more protections against federal troop use. Now the emotions of the moment are causing people to call for lessening the restrictions on such use of federal troops. I think that now isn't the best time to be thinking with our gut. Yes?

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

And Redleg, be very wary of calling for a repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act. Many people to the right and left of the political spectrum have been calling for it to be strengthened since the fiasco in Waco, Texas. The lines got blurred there more than a little bit. The emotions of that disaster caused people to lean for more protections against federal troop use. Now the emotions of the moment are causing people to call for lessening the restrictions on such use of federal troops. I think that now isn't the best time to be thinking with our gut. Yes?

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Oh it needs repealed because its not being used correctly any longer. New laws need to be legislated for the military to function within the borders of the United States so that it can respond to just such crisis as this one is. The Posse Comitatus Act requires the governmental buerarcy to kick in first - and certain criteria to be in place before troops can be used.

Maybe a better solution would be for the adminstration at the Federal Level to put more meat into the legislation that control FEMA and the National Response Plan - and give the military a bigger role in FEMA other then a coordination role.

What has been shown by the emergency and the diaster that has happen to New Orleans is that the current plan of the adminstration is found to be lacking because it relays on the states being able to handle it all - with only support coming from the Federals. Situations like this one shows that in some instance it has to be a Federal controlled plan and response. Having seen what Catergory 5 Hurricanes do to the coastal region - would you not agree that a Catergory 5 Hurricane is beyond the control of any state government?

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

So does anyone have a clue for how long it takes to pump the water out of the city?Because if people are confined in buildings without supplies it will turn out to be a jungle.I think that the marshall law was a good step but if they wont evacuote the rest of the population you are going to face anarchy there sometime soon.

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Not sure about the pumps but I am pretty sure that water normally evaporates from lakes in the area at a rate of around ¼” per day +/- a little. If there were 3’ of water over all 180 square miles of NO than it would take 144 days to evaporate all the water (not including any additional rain or hurricanes) I’m sure runoff, soaking in, and the pumps will all make that number shorter. It really doesent matter though, the salt water and sewage have pretty much made everything below the 2nd floor worthless. After another day, week or month it will still be worthless.

My stupid math fact of the day: I did the math real fast but if there were 3’ of water over 180 square miles there would be some 14 trillion square feet of water there.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

I believe that is part of the issue and the problem - no one knows for sure. And the city was evacuted - but it seems that city government ordered the evacuation but relied on individual citizens to evacuate themselves. Or that is my impression of how the events have gone.

And is I believe the scope of why this discussion was started

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There were some buses being used. The city used its buses to move people to the dome for example. They were trying to pick up those without transport and had designated places for people to gather. I've also seen some reports that buses that had been rented by folks in New Orleans were commandeered outside the city by outside officials. That is what the tourists who were in the French quarter are saying, they had purchases seats. I can also tell you that when I looked at a few webcam shots during evacuation, there were a number of buses leaving the city.

The city did its part, not flawlessly, but reasonably (remember the initial sighs of relief we had?) It had security that was reasonable for the first 24 hours after the storm. It had gathered what people it could in central locations. Then the gap came, the city could not hope to maintain order on its own, and help did not arrive promptly.

Who should have filled the gap? I'm not sure. State? Probably, but could they do it in the window they had? I doubt it. I think they lacked the logistics and manpower to manage it. That means that FEMA, etc. were needed, but that they work in reactive mode. And here we are.

To me it looks like something that is just too big for the present system. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at various individuals who I think failed, because I don't think the *system* can handle it.

Perhaps after the Katrina Commission we will understand what went wrong, and how to create an appropriate disaster planning/response system.

I disagree with the pass you're willing to grant the municipal authorities, Red. In point of fact, they DID NOT adequately plan for the local evacuation. If they did, there wouldn't be helicpoters and boats flying around the city plucking people off of rooftops. I also think you're giving the State of Louisiana a bit of an undeserved walk, what do they collect taxes for if it isn't to protect the lives of their citizens? I don't have time to go look up their budget, but trust me, there was more they could have done but didn't. As for FEMA's woefully inadequate response, I couldn't agree more.

Sadly, I would be willing to bet that not much will change out of this. Dennis Hastert make a foolishly unpolitiical statement at completely the wrong time, but what he said was 100% correct. Even if all three levels of government had been on their mark and taken every reasonable (and some unreasonable precautions) there's still more Mother Nature could have done. There's some cold hard facts that need to be faced. The single biggest oversight in all of this was the city itself! I'm not saying those people who lost their homes aren't entitled to relief and rebuilding, but not there. It's pretty clear, Mother Nature has claimed that delta for her own.

New Orleans Mayor is on the mark here, he is tired of excuses and is hitting hard now, Mayor Responds

A few comments that are square on:

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I keep hearing that it's coming. This is coming, that is coming. And my answer to that today is BS, where is the beef? Because there is no beef in this city. "

Nagin said, "Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving."

Nagin called for a moratorium on press conferences "until the resources are in this city."

"They're feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying," he said.

"I don't know whether it's the governor's problem, or it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get ... on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now," Nagin said.

"They thinking small, man, and this is a major, major deal," he said.

"Get off your asses and let's do something."

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In other words "Help! I screwed up, squandered millions of dollars, got caught with my pants down and now you need to clean up the mess I made!"

While yes, we do have to do all we can to help our fellow Americans in New Orleans & the surrounding area, I hardly view Mayor Nagin as any more the voice of moral authoritity than the organizer of the local dogfight.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I disagree with the pass you're willing to grant the municipal authorities, Red. In point of fact, they DID NOT adequately plan for the local evacuation. If they did, there wouldn't be helicpoters and boats flying around the city plucking people off of rooftops. I also think you're giving the State of Louisiana a bit of an undeserved walk, what do they collect taxes for if it isn't to protect the lives of their citizens? I don't have time to go look up their budget, but trust me, there was more they could have done but didn't. As for FEMA's woefully inadequate response, I couldn't agree more.

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Their evacuation percentage might not be all that bad. I'm not sure. With similar notice and how much of Houston or Dallas, or Wilmington, or New York, or St. Louis would be evacuated? Remember, you also have to evacuate a huge swath around them AT THE SAME TIME.

I would bet you a very large sum that all of those cities would have a large population left behind, even after the evacuation was made mandatory. Do you think a few thousand police and guard could force out 100,000 or more people into buses in 18 hours or so? Where would the buses go?

I'll add in the "week end" factor here. It had some effect.

I'm not giving a pass to Louisiana, but Texas is struggling with the evacuees right now. I don't think most folks appreciate the scale of the problem.

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Sadly, I would be willing to bet that not much will change out of this. Dennis Hastert make a foolishly unpolitiical statement at completely the wrong time, but what he said was 100% correct. Even if all three levels of government had been on their mark and taken every reasonable (and some unreasonable precautions) there's still more Mother Nature could have done. There's some cold hard facts that need to be faced. The single biggest oversight in all of this was the city itself! I'm not saying those people who lost their homes aren't entitled to relief and rebuilding, but not there. It's pretty clear, Mother Nature has claimed that delta for her own.

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Are we williing to tell that to San Fran. next time? Or to any cities along the Mississippi that flood? Or to Anchorage? Or to Florida... Or to other coastal cities the next time they get hit? Or to Seattle when they suffer a Lahar from the massive glacier sitting above them on a volcano?

Does the rebuilding of New Orleans need to be different? You bet. Saying the place should be abandoned, BS! If we are going to start abandoning every city that finds itself in need of national help, then what is the point?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

In other words "Help! I screwed up, squandered millions of dollars, got caught with my pants down and now you need to clean up the mess I made!"

While yes, we do have to do all we can to help our fellow Americans in New Orleans & the surrounding area, I hardly view Mayor Nagin as any more the voice of moral authoritity than the organizer of the local dogfight.

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I suggest we tell that same thing to every community that ever needs Federal disaster help then. You've got your head on backwards on this.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

Michael Chertoff should resign in disgrace - today.

He's already lying through his teeth to make himself look good. Scum.

"Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff denied reports that rescue efforts in New Orleans had been halted for security reasons Thursday, saying those operations "are continuing in full force."

And yet...

After a sniper opened fire on hospital staff at Charity Hospital, "The National Guard soldiers told staff to get away from the windows, and evacuations were halted."

In another area, "Evacuations by boat were halted after armed looters threatened medics, and overturned one of their boats."

Richard Zuschlag, president of Acadian Ambulance Service Inc., described the chaos at a suburban hospital. "We tried to airlift supplies into Kenner Memorial Hospital late last evening and were confronted by an unruly crowd with guns, and the pilots refused to land," he said.

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Being a naive "why can't we get along and be nice to eachother" kind of guy, I'm not surprised that they were not well prepared for aid and rescue operations to meet with armed resistance within the USA.

I would say the same to any community living under such dire threat. If San Francisco had an Earthquake and 3 days later hadn't figured out how to shut off natural gas lines, yes, the mayor of San Francisco would be hearing from me. And if the mayor of Boston couldn't figure out how to keep the roads plowed during a blizzard, damn skippy I'd have something to say about that too.

As I've said time and time again, there's breakdowns at all levels on this one. I am not trying to give Bush a pass on this one. Reread what I've written so far. But for somebody who's supposedly saying he's looking at all three levels of government, you certainly do seem to be focusing on one particular branch of the federal government.

I have one simple question for you... if New Orleans had done all it could, tell me, why were they only using outbound lanes of I-10 for the evacuation? Wouldn't they halve congestion by opening up the inbound lanes for outbound traffic too?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

In other words "Help! I screwed up, squandered millions of dollars, got caught with my pants down and now you need to clean up the mess I made!"

While yes, we do have to do all we can to help our fellow Americans in New Orleans & the surrounding area, I hardly view Mayor Nagin as any more the voice of moral authoritity than the organizer of the local dogfight.

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Have you seen the guy lately?
I have no doubts as to the sincerity of his commitment to helping the citizens of NO in this situation.
What degree of negligence he's shown earlier should be discussed some months from now IMH(on this rare occasion)O

The same goes for other authorities on all levels.
The relevant question these days is "What are you doing to help those afflicted right now?"

I'm not trying to be a hypocrite here. I agree with you, building so heavily on the San Andreas fault line defies logic as well. But, if somebody chooses to, why should they be able to come take money from you and I to rebuild their house? I don't believe the Federal Government should be in the disaster insurance business, and essentially, that's what rebuilding plans are. They give money to people who built in dangerous areas by taking it from people who built in safe ones. I definitiely think your average Joe in New Orleans should be covered and should have a shot at rebuilding, even at my expense, but don't I have a right to say "Okay, but this time, do it above sea level?" Or "not on an active fault line"? Or am I supposed to just shut up and fork it over, regardless of what I think?

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Originally Posted by Paul Peru

Have you seen the guy lately?
I have no doubts as to the sincerity of his commitment to helping the citizens of NO in this situation.
What degree of negligence he's shown earlier should be discussed some months from now IMH(on this rare occasion)O

The same goes for other authorities on all levels.
The relevant question these days is "What are you doing to help those afflicted right now?"

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Well, $500 to the Salvation Army (that's all I can do right now, I get paid next Friday) and we're going to make our house available to a family (should they want to make the 800 mile trek up here). I'm not trying to blame this solely on Mayor Nagin. I'm just saying he's hardly a blameless hero of the people in all of this.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

New Orleans Mayor is on the mark here, he is tired of excuses and is hitting hard now, Mayor Responds

A few comments that are square on:

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“Get off your asses and let's do something.” Shouldn’t he have been saying this days ago?

"Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving." If no one else is doing it, do it yourself! As he was on his way to safety he should have been on his cell phone with his city credit card in hand renting all the busses he could. Ordering supplies and water. And whatever else.

If there wasn’t a plan for this kind of disaster, then make it up as you go.

Stop talking to all these people that aren’t helping, tell the president you will call him back and get “something” done yourself.

The people are cut off by water not lava! Get a dam row boat or a fleet of row boats and bring supplies to the cutoff people, its your city, YOU do something.

GAH! :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I have one simple question for you... if New Orleans had done all it could, tell me, why were they only using outbound lanes of I-10 for the evacuation? Wouldn't they halve congestion by opening up the inbound lanes for outbound traffic too?

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I've been asking the same thing myself. I'm not sure who makes the call on that. City? State? State patrol?

It might also have been that the bottleneck was farther out. It doesn't help to go from 5 to 10 lanes if some other restriction downstream (overpasses, intersections) etc. makes the effective carrying capacity 3 or 4 lanes on the escape route. The traffic flow is designed directionally, so this is a big concern in my mind. Do any areas ever conduct these kind of drills statewide.

Look, I'm not trying to attack you, Don. But the scale of this is so far beyond what a Mayor has control over. I'm sure there will be many things found that could have been done better by the city, but was what he did reasonable? From watching things develop I would say yes. I'm not so impressed by the Louisiana governor though. I'm even less impressed by Federal efforts prior to today. The Coast Guard did its role, but the others have been inadequate. As Redleg said, it is part of the design of the *response* system. The system is designed to exhaust the efforts of local and state first.

This mayor didn't build the city. The city was built long ago, and there have been mayors since then. Do you think the mayor could magically raise the city by 9 feet?

Shall we give Hailey Barbour hell for the complaints of Mississippi citizens who are cut off or did not evacuate? Or who are complaining that no water has arrived and dead bodies are creating a stench. They appear to have a better opportunity to evacuate on average.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

“Get off your asses and let's do something.” Shouldn’t he have been saying this days ago?

"Get every Greyhound bus in the country and get them moving." If no one else is doing it, do it yourself! As he was on his way to safety he should have been on his cell phone with his city credit card in hand renting all the busses he could. Ordering supplies and water. And whatever else.

If there wasn’t a plan for this kind of disaster, then make it up as you go.

Stop talking to all these people that aren’t helping, tell the president you will call him back and get “something” done yourself.

The people are cut off by water not lava! Get a dam row boat or a fleet of row boats and bring supplies to the cutoff people, its your city, YOU do something.

GAH! :furious3:

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Do you realize that there is almost no communication left for the Mayor and his officers, etc.? The storm took out cels, phone, even radios. The officers can't communicate. You don't build local systems to operate with no gas, no electric, no communication towers, the roads impassable, the areas holding boats unreachable, etc. ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

It is overload beyond belief. Response must come from without. All you can expect of the locals is to try to hold the fort. They did for a time. We heard about all this stuff coming. Where the hell has it been? Why does it take 4 days to get any substantial assistance into the area? People don't hold out without water well in this heat. You can't wait 2 days, let alone 4.

The mayor is right. If a city can't get help any quicker than this, then the whole damned system is broken.

I think we're both getting a little raw over this, and that's a good thing, as it means we're both still emotionally invested and angry at the travesty that's been visited upon our fellow human beings, in ways that are increasingly appearing to be due to negligence and incompetence in addition to the severe damage & consequences doled out by mother nature herself.

In many ways, the blame game is a natural reaction to something like this. Nobody wants to consider the possiblity that what's happened down in New Orleans really is the best that we can do. We don't like admitting at the end of the day, even with our government, our money & everything else, we're at nature's whim. Well, every now and then we get some stark reminders.

In that spirit, I'm recognizing what I'm doing and dropping out of it. Mr. Peru is Right, the time for figuring out who did what they were supposed to and who didn't is not yet upon us.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Well, $500 to the Salvation Army (that's all I can do right now, I get paid next Friday) and we're going to make our house available to a family (should they want to make the 800 mile trek up here). I'm not trying to blame this solely on Mayor Nagin. I'm just saying he's hardly a blameless hero of the people in all of this.

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I wasn't talking about you, really, just a general "you" :embarassed:

Your participation certainly seems commendable, but I was thinking of governmental institutions etc.

And I surely didn't mean to suggest that the mayor is a blameless hero of anything (but then neither were St. Paul, St. Augustine or several other St.s, no direct comparison being made and so on and so forth), just that he's making a genuine effort now.

Just watched Soledad of CNN interview Brown of FEMA. He was doing the same smoke blowing that the mayor was complaining about, saying he didn't even know about the convention center until a few hours ago and that supplies had been brought in. She ate his lunch. Very calm, but she pointed out that the national guardsmen had known of the problems in the convention center at least 24 hours before, and that folks were being directed to go there by emergency workers. Basically, everything he was saying was bullshit spin.

Here is CNN's article on some of this, haven't had a chance to read it yet:
Spin vs. Reality

This is a big reason things have not gotten done. Talk, no action.