Looting, cohesion & gun control

Louisiana Governor Blanco has announced that new National Guard troops are taking up stations in parts of New Orleans and that their M-16's are 'locked and loaded'. These troops apparently include 300 soldiers from the Arkansas National Guard who are 'fresh in from Iraq' and 'more than willing to kill if necessary'.

There will be sighs of relief from the 'it's-about-time'ers', but to me this sounds like a signal to the outside world more than to the looters, who are probably not listening to news reports anyway or only incidentally. And it would seem that these combat troops will have great trouble distinguishing between between looters and people who 'steal' in order to stay alive. Technically, the difference has now become very small and 'righteous looters' could soon be fighting Arkansas crack troops in the streets of New Orleans.

What are we to make of a situation where a government is forced to send in crack combat troops to control rescue operations and protect rescue workers from armed gangs and frustrated citizens taking potshots at them?

Until now I have refrained from comments about American gun control and gun culture, but it becomes more difficult by the day. Guns don't kill rescue workers, but their availability is a real plague on top of all the other issues in this situation.

As I said elsewhere, there is a marked difference between the reaction of the Turkish people to the August 1999 Izmit earthquake which destroyed entire cities and regions and that of Americans in the face of this New Orleans disaster. There was very little looting going on in Turkey and there were almost no fights between security forces and citizens. All efforts seemed to be geared toward rescuing and supporting the victims. It may have been quite important in this respect that the Turkish government immediately deployed 50.000 troops to prevent looting and black-marketeering as well as support the rescue operations. But I wonder if that explains everything. From what I hear from Turkish friends there was more cohesion than ever before in Turkish society, even between Turks and Kurds, not less.

Anyway, what do I know about New Orleans other than some things I saw on a visit years ago? Any Americans ready to face the gun control music at this stage?

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Any Americans ready to face the gun control music at this stage?

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Hi Adrian,

I was thinking along your line when I saw the news yesterday.
I assume that the pro-gun people won't change their stance.
And why should they? (I'm trying to play Devil's advocate here)
This is the catastrophe they waited for to prove that it is safer to be armed.
After all you wouldn't want to be unarmed when your house is being looted
or someone trys to rob you, would you? The guys shooting at the helicopters?
Criminals, of course. They even would have guns even when nobody else did.
I don't believe this will change anything.

From our European perspective this is absolutely unbelievable.
I can't imagine that anything similar could happen in the Netherlands, should they be flooded someday. (a large part of it lies under sea-level)

:bow:

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Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

I can't imagine that anything similar could happen in the Netherlands, should they be flooded someday. (a large part of it lies under sea-level)

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We had a major flood risk in 1995. It was considered serious enough to justify mass evacuation. In a couple days 250,000 people, 300,000 cattle, a million pigs and millions of poultry birds were moved from an area bounded by the Lower Rhine, the Waal and the Maas. As it turned out, the flood didn't happen. In the (deserted) evacuation areas only some police patrolled, no army. There was no looting, no shooting.

But then, we are really a midget country compared to the United States. Everything is ten times bigger there, and not just fridges...

The reason there sending the troops is because there are now armed gangs committing acts of rape looting and in some cases murder. and I believe the troops will be able to tell the deference. As for everything thats going on down there its really not a reflection on americas culture if this happened say in Boston the looting would be allot less. There are 2 main reasons why looting is happening. The people who stayed behind are the poorest in america and many really don't have any sense of morals and they believe this is there chance to get back at the man so to speak and bad for every 1 looter there are probaly 10 people just trying to get out. As for gun control well if Im in NO and there armed gangs (90% of whom probaly purchased there weapons illegally) trying to break in to my home I should be armed as well

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

We had a major flood risk in 1995. It was considered serious enough to justify mass evacuation. In a couple days 250,000 people, 300,000 cattle, a million pigs and millions of poultry birds were moved from an area bounded by the Lower Rhine, the Waal and the Maas. As it turned out, the flood didn't happen. In the (deserted) evacuation areas only some police patrolled, no army.

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Ah, interesting. I had no idea, couldn't remember.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

There was no looting, no shooting.
But then, we are really a midget country compared to the United States. Everything is ten times bigger there, and not just fridges...

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Do you argue that it is a matter of size? (no pun intended)
I'd claim that it is a matter of mentality and culture.

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

There are 2 main reasons why looting is happening. The people who stayed behind are the poorest in america and many really don't have any sense of morals and they believe this is there chance to get back at the man so to speak (..)

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Point taken. So social cohesion was much less in New Orleans than in many other American cities to begin with.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Louisiana Governor Blanco has announced that new National Guard troops are taking up stations in parts of New Orleans and that their M-16's are 'locked and loaded'. These troops apparently include 300 soldiers from the Arkansas National Guard who are 'fresh in from Iraq' and 'more than willing to kill if necessary'.

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Is that a quote from the governor or is it embilisment on your part.

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There will be sighs of relief from the 'it's-about-time'ers', but to me this sounds like a signal to the outside world more than to the looters, who are probably not listening to news reports anyway or only incidentally. And it would seem that these combat troops will have great trouble distinguishing between between looters and people who 'steal' in order to stay alive. Technically, the difference has now become very small and 'righteous looters' could soon be fighting Arkansas crack troops in the streets of New Orleans.

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Technically speaking any looting is consider looting - be it for survival or profit. Since you used the word technically - one needs to be sure of thier word use.

From Webster's

a : to plunder or sack in war b : to rob especially on a large scale and usually by violence or corruption
2 : to seize and carry away by force especially in war
intransitive senses : to engage in robbing or plundering especially in war

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What are we to make of a situation where a government is forced to send in crack combat troops to control rescue operations and protect rescue workers from armed gangs and frustrated citizens taking potshots at them?

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That the government of several levels screwed up

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Until now I have refrained from comments about American gun control and gun culture, but it becomes more difficult by the day. Guns don't kill rescue workers, but their availability is a real plague on top of all the other issues in this situation.

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Gun control does not keep weapons out of the hands of people who are going to use them for criminal purposes.

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As I said elsewhere, there is a marked difference between the reaction of the Turkish people to the August 1999 Izmit earthquake which destroyed entire cities and regions and that of Americans in the face of this New Orleans disaster. There was very little looting going on in Turkey and there were almost no fights between security forces and citizens. All efforts seemed to be geared toward rescuing and supporting the victims. It may have been quite important in this respect that the Turkish government immediately deployed 50.000 troops to prevent looting and black-marketeering as well as support the rescue operations. But I wonder if that explains everything. From what I hear from Turkish friends there was more cohesion than ever before in Turkish society, even between Turks and Kurds, not less.

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Yep - however again shall I mention again that in the United States and several of the laws passed by Congress prevent such an action being done by the Federal Government here. I am sure some changes are coming to the Federal response system based upon this crisis.

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Anyway, what do I know about New Orleans other than some things I saw on a visit years ago? Any Americans ready to face the gun control music at this stage?

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Not at all - it seems again that weapons are being used by individuals who are either faced with desperation (to protect themselves in some aspects) or from those who have criminal intentions.

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Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

Do you argue that it is a matter of size? (no pun intended)

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Yeah. If we had to evacuate an area the size of Northern France, we would have needed more than a few police patrols with a bull horn.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Point taken. So social cohesion was much less in New Orleans than in many other American cities to begin with.

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not as whole but most of the people that were left behind have nothing to begin with and social cohesion means nothing when these people see free things. sad really :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Point taken. So social cohesion was much less in New Orleans than in many other American cities to begin with.

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Lets put it this way - the city is somewhere close to 75% black when I last saw a racial makeup statistic.

It has a major history of corruption in the city law enforcement and even in its administration.

There is still a lot of racial tension between the whites and the blacks. From my experience its done at all levels of the society - not only the rich but the poor.

And coupled with the emotions of likely feeling abandoned by their government (and I do mean all three levels of government - city, state, and federal) which I would have to agree with them - some would have a tendency to go to an extreme in a crisis situation like they are facing.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Yeah. If we had to evacuate an area the size of Northern France, we would have needed more than a few police patrols with a bull horn.

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I agree. The number of people and the size of the area are an important factor.
Evacuating a third of Germany wouldn't be easy, too.
Of course we would need police and maybe even the BGS
but I doubt that we would see much armed looting in the process.
But then again, I don't trust my fellow citizens to be very relaxed about such a disaster.
:bow:

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Is that a quote from the governor or is it embilisment on your part.

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From Reuters:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

I know 50.000 troops on hte ground could have made a huge difference, as it probably did in Turkey even though nearly all of them were employed in rescue and logistics operations there and practically none in policing, let alone 'combat'.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

From Reuters:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

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So a little emblishment (SP) on your part it seems - that is a far cry from the orginal statement of

'more than willing to kill if necessary'

Put a nice attempt at spin toward your point.

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I know 50.000 troops on hte ground could have made a huge difference, as it probably did in Turkey even though nearly all of them were employed in rescue and logistics operations there and practically none in policing, let alone 'combat'.

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Considering that Lousiana has a enhanced Seperate Infantry Brigade (Mechinazed) the governor of the state had the option of activiting the Guard to prepare for the necessity of immediate response.

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

not as whole but most of the people that were left behind have nothing to begin with and social cohesion means nothing when these people see free things. sad really :embarassed:

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Well I guess that figures. And maybe the behaviour of looters and armed gangs wouldn't be much different from their usual routine, so what we are witnessing is not a breakdown in cohesion, just a breakdown in public order.

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Gun control does not keep weapons out of the hands of people who are going to use them for criminal purposes.

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Well, that's precisely the point. In France, and the same could be said in Germany or Spain I think, if someone attack me, there's always a (small) chance that I could kick his ass with a punch in the nose. Most of the gang do *not* have gun, except in a few places where no one (and not even the police forces) would go. I guess that's a cultural difference, but I still find it hard to believe the pro gun arguments.

As for what's happening in New Orleans, I think there are some factors that should be taken into consideration. From what I say on TV, almost all looters (I'd say among the line of 80%) are black people. I think there would be as much looting if some catastroph happened in a French city with 80% of black/muslim/rather poor population.

Btw, the images I see on TV are unbelievable : cops and gangs looting the same supermarkets, old people and babies almost dying because of the lack of supplies...

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Originally Posted by Redleg

So a little emblishment (SP) on your part it seems - that is a far cry from the orginal statement of 'more than willing to kill if necessary'. Put a nice attempt at spin toward your point.

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This is nit-picking at its worst, Redleg. I try to come to grips with a situation in New Orleans that largely eludes me. My choice of words may not be perfect, but I am not, I repeat not, putting a 'nice spin' on other peoples' misery.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

This is nit-picking at its worst, Redleg.

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Your choice of words to make a point was taking the governor's statement out of context. However if you chose to believe I am just nit-picking - that is fine but ask yourself this question.

'more than willing to kill if necessary'

or did she state

These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."



One statement implies that the soldiers are willing to kill their fellow citizens

the other states that they know how to fight and she suspects that they just might have to.

Notice the difference. Your making an assumpting that soldiers of the United States are more then willing to kill their fellow citizens - something that I doubt they are willing to do. Not nit-picking at all - but correcting your attempt use a diaster and spin it into an arguement for gun control.

Oh by the way I must correct myself

Considering that Lousiana has a enhanced Seperate Infantry Brigade (Mechinazed) the governor of the state had the option of activiting the Guard to prepare for the necessity of immediate response

It seems that the state does not have their Seperate Infantry Brigade - since its been deployed to Iraq. Which makes it a even bigger failure in coordination and response by not only the state - but the Federal Government since the immediate first response ability of the state was cut roughly in half when the unit was deployed to Iraq

My reactions to what I've read about the situation (sniping of evacuating hospitals, raping of children, street warfare)?

1) The US is not a civilized nation. It's barbaric.

2) We have created societies where psychopaths are not lone anomolies, but widespread...and we supplied them with a city full of guns in abondoned homes and department stores.

3) In actuality, there are few times when I person defending their business or home uses a gun successully to thwart a looter. Most likely the person will be killed themselves by the looter, they will kill inocent people in the crossfire, or they will shoot a looter who is a hungry, exhausted woman trying to feed her baby in a city with no operating stores. They ought to be out of the disaster area seeking aid, not standing waist-deep in water waiting to shoot a looter of water-damaged merchandise.

4) Wouldn't it be nice if the soldiers and supplies in Iraq were here on their way to the people of the hurricane-striken area? We cause chaos in another country and sap our resources for helping people in our own.

Americans should be seriously ashamed of the US. Bush should be imprisoned.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

My reactions to what I've read about the situation (sniping of evacuating hospitals, raping of children, street warfare)?

1) The US is not a civilized nation. It's barbaric.

2) We have created societies where psychopaths are not lone anomolies, but widespread...and we supplied them with a city full of guns in abondoned homes and department stores.

3) In actuality, there are few times when I person defending their business or home uses a gun successully to thwart a looter. Most likely the person will be killed themselves by the looter, they will kill inocent people in the crossfire, or they will shoot a looter who is a hungry, exhausted woman trying to feed her baby in a city with no operating stores. They ought to be out of the disaster area seeking aid, not standing waist-deep in water waiting to shoot a looter of water-damaged merchandise.

4) Wouldn't it be nice if the soldiers and supplies in Iraq were here on their way to the people of the hurricane-striken area? We cause chaos in another country and sap our resources for helping people in our own.

Americans should be seriously ashamed of the US. Bush should be imprisoned.

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I'm only ashamed that people like yourself are living in America.

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Gun control does not keep weapons out of the hands of people who are going to use them for criminal purposes.

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As Meneldil points out, this is flat not true. We have very tight, maybe too tight, gun control in the UK. Far far fewer of our criminals carry guns than in the states. Of course, you can believe those facts are unconnected if you like...

I do not belittle the difficulty of evacuating a city of, what is it, about a million people. If we had to evacute Birmingham, I dare say some people would behave badly and there might be some looting. The difference is they would not be able to shoot at helicopters and it wouldn't require troops with assault rifles to restore order.

On the relief effort generally, I am also almost reaching the end of the "oh well its all very difficult you have to make allowances" stage and almost at the "Is it just me or is this so called rescue and relief effort a complete and utter shambles".

I'm also thinking that these images of very poor black people wading through sewage and begging for food, water, and someone to restore order aren't exactly going to help race relations in the US...especially taken with the talk that all their homes may need to be bulldozed and then not rebuilt.

Tachikaze,
Do you have any data to support your hypothesis in point #3 or is it speculation on your part?

I am ashamed of President Bush's handling of this crisis, but he's halfway down a very long list. In order to say he ought to be in jail, so should the director of FEMA, the governor of Louisiana, whoever is responsible for emergency services for the state of Louisiana, the Mayor of New Orleans, the police commissioner & chief for New Orleans, whoever is responsible within New Orleans itself for emergency evacuations, and a whole hatful of other people that have betrayed the trust of their offices.

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I am ashamed of President Bush's handling of this crisis. But in order to say he ought to be in jail, so should the director of FEMA, the governor of Louisiana, whoever is responsible for emergency services for the state of Louisiana, the Mayor of New Orleans, the police commissioner & chief for New Orleans, whoever is responsible within New Orleans itself for emergency evacuations, and a whole hatful of other people that have betrayed the trust of their offices.

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Well DC its your country but I'd say, after following due process of course, that looks about right to me.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Tachikaze,
Do you have any data to support your hypothesis in point #3 or is it speculation on your part?

I am ashamed of President Bush's handling of this crisis. But in order to say he ought to be in jail, so should the director of FEMA, the governor of Louisiana, whoever is responsible for emergency services for the state of Louisiana, the Mayor of New Orleans, the police commissioner & chief for New Orleans, whoever is responsible within New Orleans itself for emergency evacuations, and a whole hatful of other people that have betrayed the trust of their offices.

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You could also have the arguement that the people that remained in the city after they were ORDERED to leave could be imprisoned as well. Personnal responsibility is in order as well...

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Bush should be imprisoned.

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Even I find that to be a little extreme. The problems here aren't just caused by Bush. It is a failure on the part of a lax administration, an area unused to storms, and a nation already involved in a war of occupation. Bush may - and I stress may - need to be reprimanded, but I personally think that more attention should be placed on saving the people in the disaster areas.

Besides, how can you stay angry at a cute little muppet like Bush?
(and thus begins the Righty crapstorm... better run through the jungle- whoa, don't look back!)

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Bush should be imprisoned.

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Let's start lower and work our way up. We don't want to overload the jails with too many prisoners. There are plenty of criminals in the White House, probably too many for one trip; and we need the buses in Louisiana.

Seeing them frog-marched in handcuffs out of where they've been squatting for the last 5 years sure would be an entertaining sight, though:

http://www.bushwatch.net/unknown-1.jpg

You make a very good point EA. I live in North Carolina which is 40% black, 40% white & 20% other. Trust me, it has not gone unnoticed by anybody what color the people in the Superdome are.

Honestly, you make some very good points about gun control in light of the situation. But let me just ask you this. Why haven't the media published a single story of somebody defending themselves from a looting mob through the legal & intended use of a firearm? Why aren't there any statistics published? Do you all really believe that anyone with a gun in the city of New Orleans immediately turned to mayhem? If not, why do we only hear one side of the story? Could it be that our media has a pre-planned story to tell? Hmm... ~:confused:

All I want to know is what took so long for them to do this?
http://boortz.com/images/1906_shoot_looters.jpg

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Let's take a look inside the Super Dome. They wouldn't let the media in. Why? Did they know what was going to happen there. You can't walk around in the Super Dome at night because you'll step in human waste. Women are being dragged into restrooms and raped. Fires are being started. Gunshots have been reported. Fights are commonplace. On day one helicopters could have landed outside the Superdome loaded with armed National Guardsmen with orders to treat predators harshly. Didn't happen. They searched everyone before they entered the Super Dome. No guns allowed. This left innocent people unable to defend themselves. Does it sound trite to say that an armed society is a polite society? Would the predators have been so eager to drag women off to rape them in the bathrooms if they thought that there was someone nearby with a gun that would step in?

We are reaping the results of a liberal culture that seeks to make excuses for violence and criminal activity.

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LINK

I believe many of these looters have stayed behind just for the purpose of looting.

Gawain, here is what your guy Boortz has been doing all week:

Yesterday afternoon and last evening I did what I have been doing most of the week ... I sat in front of the television watching the devastation and the dual nature of man unfold in New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf coast.

And now he tells us exactly what went down in that Dome in NO, even though 'no media were allowed in' and Boortz himself wasn't anywhere near the place? That is about as selfdefeating as a blog can get.

By the way, I saw reports from local journalists and electronic media coming right from the heart of that dome this week. CNN had some of them. People behaved decently throughout the first 48 hours. It was only when the frustration, the dirt and the shortages made themselves felt that the veneer of civilisation peeled away.

Maybe Boortz has been watching the wrong channel all week? :mellow:

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We are reaping the results of a liberal culture that seeks to make excuses for violence and criminal activity.

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Weren't you people telling the leftists earlier not to bring politics into this?

You righties and the Democrats are all hypocrites. I am sick and tired of this. I am going to take a leave of absence from the backroom until this Katrina stuff blows over.

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You righties and the Democrats are all hypocrites

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Thats why I started the hypocrisy thread ~D

If you can land a helicopter near the superdome why your goverment doesnt start land some Chinooks there and start evacuoting people the hell out from the superdome?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Thats why I started the hypocrisy thread ~D

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Having fun with Katrina, Gawain?

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Having fun with Katrina, Gawain?

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You cannot have fun with such a disaster.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

From Reuters:

"These troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said on Thursday night of one group of 300 National Guard troops being deployed here after recent duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

I know 50.000 troops on hte ground could have made a huge difference, as it probably did in Turkey even though nearly all of them were employed in rescue and logistics operations there and practically none in policing, let alone 'combat'.

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I do not think it is possible to estimate the situation with the elements we possess, at least concerning violence.

The images and reports are catastrophic but it does not appear someone knows what's happening.

So are street warfare, rapes, free shooting really happening in the New Orleans now?

And if it is the case, at which scale?

Those elements remain to be verified before any statement can be made in my opinion.

What can be noted is the total disorganization and the absolute lack of reaction of the authorities in charge.

Thats is what i think to be the most 'strange', i can think of no other words : how can they, after several days of absolute mess and lack of initiative, take the decision to send the army into a devastated city, while making understand the soldiers are there to make war 'if necessary'?

This is a real gap of culture concerning fire arms and the use of violence in my opinion, what can they hope of this type of decision?

Is there really in the US a kind of general idea that big guns with men ready to use them is the ultimate solution, or something like that?

Is it possible that US citizen will accept that the only concrete decision taken by their representants can be to use violence against persons that do not have anything to drink and that have been living a hell since several days?

The term is not appropriate but isn't it a glorification of violence and weapons to mask the inability to react in a positive manner?

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Your choice of words to make a point was taking the governor's statement out of context. However if you chose to believe I am just nit-picking - that is fine but ask yourself this question.

'more than willing to kill if necessary'

or did she state

These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."

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OK, I finally found the quote I saw this morning but couldn't retrieve afterwards. It is from CNN:

On Thursday she [Blanco] warned lawbreakers that extra troops had arrived in the city -- with more on the way. "These are some of the 40,000 extra troops that I have demanded," Blanco said. "They have M-16s, and they're locked and loaded ... I have one message for these hoodlums: These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so if necessary, and I expect they will."

So much for my 'spin'. Everybody happy now?

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Is it possible that US citizen will accept that the only concrete decision taken by their representants can be to use violence against persons that do not have anything to drink and that have been living a hell since several days?

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Thats not what thier talking about and you know it. Robbing jewlery stores and clothing stores doesnt keep you alive or is it needed to do so. No one is advocating harming people for the reasons you stated.

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Thats is what i think to be the most 'strange', i can think of no other words : how can they, after several days of absolute mess and lack of initiative, take the decision to send the army into a devastated city, while making understand the soldiers are there to make war 'if necessary'?

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If they could have sent them in sooner things wouldnt be as bad as the are now. I heard a guy from the 82nd airborn on the radio just back from Iraq the otherday saying he wished they would send him down there as he knew how to treat looters. These are criminals not some poor person trying to survive.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

If they could have sent them in sooner things wouldnt be as bad as the are now. I heard a guy from the 82nd airborn on the radio just back from Iraq the otherday saying he wished they would send him down there as he knew how to treat looters. These are criminals not some poor person trying to survive.

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One person's deserving poor is another person's looter. I have a better idea. Why don't you have those Chinook helicopters dump guns and ammo from Army stocks all over New Orleans so everybody can defend themselves against everybody else?

:dizzy2:

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One person's deserving poor is another person's looter

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Aperson stealing food or drink to survive is one thing. A peron stealing 50 pairs of Nike sneakers is just a plain criminal.

Well, this is it. After the images of cops joining looters in NO, FEMA's boss is now blaming the victims for their own misery. Full circle. I'm signing off for the weekend on the sad note that this situation looks, sounds and (judging by some reports) smells like a Third World country in disintegration. I hope that the next days and weeks will prove me wrong. :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Robbing jewlery stores and clothing stores doesnt keep you alive or is it needed to do so.

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Robing an innocuped clothing store does not kill anyone, either, and i think american citizen are dying in the New Orleans now, so what is necessary, taking decisions to save lifes or take decisions to protect clothing property?

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If they could have sent them in sooner things wouldnt be as bad as the are now. I heard a guy from the 82nd airborn on the radio just back from Iraq the otherday saying he wished they would send him down there as he knew how to treat looters. These are criminals not some poor person trying to survive.

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I have no doubt that might a military deployment have occured sooner, cloth shops would have been better protected but i thought this situation mainly concerned citizen's life - do you have some sort of special feeling with clothing?

My questions in the previous post are serious, your are wrong to treat them as a debate, they reflect impressions i have and things i would like to understand, i am not trying to play the game of who has the biggest dick, you know.

If you can be honnest and can answer a question without looking for bolchevist statement, don't you think it would be better to have, instead of wild supermaket looting, an organized distribution of supermaket goods under the protection of the authorities?

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Why don't you have those Chinook helicopters dump guns and ammo from Army stocks all over New Orleans so everybody can defend themselves against everybody else?

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Only if they dump Charleton Heston out of a Chinook as well. Just because he's an ass and I want to see how many people he can take out before they take the rifle from his cold dead hands. ~:)

But the problem isn't guns. The violence would be occurring without the guns. Less violence, probably; but the reasons for the violence aren't the guns. The guns are just a tool for the use of the violent. They're a symptom, not the disease itself. The problem is a complete and total lack of authority in the situation, for people who are used to authority. The people at the Convention Center were left to sit for 4 days before anyone even bothered to drop by and tell them that help was on the way. No one in charge to tell people what to do and when to do it. When a society which thrives on someone being in charge suddenly finds itself lacking direction, the society breaks down.

My solution, of course, would be to create a society in which people are educated to think for themselves and rule themselves and organize themselves. But that isn't going to happen in my lifetime, if ever. So, when the children are left without a parental figure to say "No!" then some of them will take advantage and they will go wild. What happened in New Orleans can happen in any city in the world. It's a feature of our apparent need to be ruled, brought on by millenia of unnecessary rule. ~D

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Well, this is it. After the images of cops joining looters in NO, FEMA's boss is now blaming the victims for their own misery. Full circle. I'm signing off for the weekend on the sad note that this situation looks, sounds and (judging by some reports) smells like a Third World country in disintegration. I hope that the next days and weeks will prove me wrong. :embarassed:

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Yes, it is really ugly it makes think to Bangladesh or Haiti - despairing.

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I have no doubt that might a military deployment have occured sooner, cloth shops would have been better protected but i thought this situation mainly concerned citizen's life - do you have some sort of special feeling with clothing?

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Oh cpme on thats not what I was reffering to and you know it. How about the snipers firing at hospital workers? How about the women being raped?

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If you can be honnest and can answer a question without looking for bolchevist statement, don't you think it would be better to have, instead of wild supermaket looting, an organized distribution of supermaket goods under the protection of the authorities?

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So they should have sent in the military to occupy all the grocery stores?

If the Administration, Federal or Local, had deployed troops immediatly, the same people bitching right now about the lack of the military would be bitching about the "military occupation". Some people can only sit on the sidelines and bitch. Yawn....

Freaking hypocrites, I only hope that in between of pointing fingers and blaming whomever they hate, they are sending a check, clothes, or water,etc at some point.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Oh cpme on thats not what I was reffering to and you know it. How about the snipers firing at hospital workers? How about the women being raped?

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I do not know what's the level of violence in the city now but i know that a huge mass of your own citizen are let to themselves and have basic needs that cannot be satisfied.

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So they should have sent in the military to occupy all the grocery stores?

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The best would have been to send food and watter and to organize it's distribution but if it is impossible then yes i think it is the police role to assume the security of the citizen to access what they need and it is the legal authorities role to allow access to those goods.

What else can it be?

Oh man, is this ugly.

It'll be interesting to see how hollywood reacts to this.

BTW, Bush is down there, where the heck is the city's Mayor? Shouldn't he be there? I haven't seen one bit of criticism for the local government.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

BTW, Bush is down there, where the heck is the city's Mayor? Shouldn't he be there? I haven't seen one bit of criticism for the local government.

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Oh, there is plenty. At least on the radio. In the end, probably everybody will have been accused of one failing or another.
I'll be interesting to see who- if anybody- will be held responsible though.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

We had a major flood risk in 1995. It was considered serious enough to justify mass evacuation. In a couple days 250,000 people, 300,000 cattle, a million pigs and millions of poultry birds were moved from an area bounded by the Lower Rhine, the Waal and the Maas. As it turned out, the flood didn't happen. In the (deserted) evacuation areas only some police patrolled, no army. There was no looting, no shooting.

But then, we are really a midget country compared to the United States. Everything is ten times bigger there, and not just fridges...

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Interesting, that is a lot of livestock to evac! ~:eek:

The 2 issues I am struggling with about your comments…

1 there was no disaster. People act different in tense situations, and you also mention having a couple of days.

2 there is definitely a different culture, way of life, mood of the people, whatever you want to call it between people in NO and the Netherlands. It has been my experience that there is a lot of crime and unhappy people in NO, combined with the total lack of leadership in the area I’m not surprised the situation has turned into a soup sandwich. Anyway, my point is that the people make a difference. Many of the people in NO could barley handle their daily lives, throw a disaster at them and *poof* they are acting like cavemen except with guns vs. clubs.

There’s still no excuse and I have no sympathy for malicious looters.

Anyway, there are similarities but not enough to make a fair comparison. :bow:

After I read how Bush should be imprisoned and the US is a horrible country I ignored the rest of this thread. Real classy guys. ~:rolleyes:

To Adrian's first point.

Those people in New Orleans do not have those guns legally. You cannot make a gun control argument based on a situation where laws are not enforced.

It would be like me saying "Well all buildings should have batter-resistent windows because all of society might break down during a natural disaster, and that will prevent looting".

To me, that is the basic flaw of your assertion that we need better gun control. There is no control, but this is an anomoly. You cannot legislate on the assumption that there may at some time in the future be no control, so we should disarm the populace so they can only beat eachother with sticks.

Id like to say again that this whole thread is disgusting. The left has wasted no time in trying to score cheap political points off of this human tradgedy. Shame on you.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Those people in New Orleans do not have those guns legally.

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How do you know? ~:confused:

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Lets put it this way - the city is somewhere close to 75% black when I last saw a racial makeup statistic.

It has a major history of corruption in the city law enforcement and even in its administration.

There is still a lot of racial tension between the whites and the blacks. From my experience its done at all levels of the society - not only the rich but the poor.

And coupled with the emotions of likely feeling abandoned by their government (and I do mean all three levels of government - city, state, and federal) which I would have to agree with them - some would have a tendency to go to an extreme in a crisis situation like they are facing.

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Honestly, I think we're going on all over all different sides of the issue and missing one critical factor in the current chaos-- New Orleans is full of black people. And not your up-and-coming, move-out-to-the-suburbs, comb-your-hair-nice black people. We're talking hard-core, ghetto-style, kept-down-by-the-man black people.

The upside is great music and local "flavor"-- right now we're witnessing the downside.

Not that they're all violent trouble-makers-- far from it-- but it only takes a few, and anyone thinking logically about New Orleans would have realized there would be more than enough.

And no, you'd have to be stupid to think that this kind of behavior is characteristic of mainstream America. This is simply the price we all (and a number of other nations in the hemisphere) pay for past slavery and segregation.

Interestingly, the current situation actually does make a pretty good argument for gun control-- if you think it's full-time criminals who are doing the bulk of the current looting and raping, you're deluded. It's people who before the disaster were ordinary, employed, peaceful citizens. Poor maybe, occasional thiefs maybe, but not career criminals.

Gun control DOES work to the extent that it limits guns only to the most determined, professional criminals. Houligan rabble in Britain don't bring guns to the party.

And as far as shooting to kill the looters, I say shoot away. After only three days you're not hungry enough to NEED to steal. And if you're doing it armed, you're asking to be shot regardless.

I doubt the National Guard will be taking too many shots at hapless mothers trying to scrounge a morsel for their suckling babes. I would wager such women are probably more concerned right now with finding a good place to hide.

DA

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

New Orleans is full of black people. And not your up-and-coming, move-out-to-the-suburbs, comb-your-hair-nice black people. We're talking hard-core, ghetto-style, kept-down-by-the-man black people.

DA

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Now its a race thing!?!?!? Are you saying that because someone has a darker pigment in their skin they are somehow genetically engineered to be criminals? That is about as an irresponsible response as saying that this all Bush's fault, or its all the liberals fault, or this is God punishing the United States for her policies, blah, blah, blah, unbelievable... :furious3:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Those people in New Orleans do not have those guns legally. You cannot make a gun control argument based on a situation where laws are not enforced.

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No, they don't have them legally. They looted them from stores like Walmart who had hundreds of guns on their shelves legally.

Do the math about how that relates back to gun control.

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Updated: 7:20 p.m. ET Aug. 18, 2005

NEW ORLEANS - Last year, university researchers conducted an experiment in which police fired 700 blank rounds in a New Orleans neighborhood in a single afternoon. No one called to report the gunfire.

New Orleans residents are reluctant to come forward as witnesses, fearing retaliation. And experts say that is one of several reasons homicides are on the rise in the Big Easy at a time when other cities are seeing their murder rates plummet to levels not seen in decades.

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8999837/

There isn't a more volatile place for this to have occured in the US.

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Gun control DOES work to the extent that it limits guns only to the most determined, professional criminals. Houligan rabble in Britain don't bring guns to the party.

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And it completely eliminates citizen's ability to defend themselves. Considering that, in a one on one, unarmed fight with a criminal, the criminal, due to size and strength, will nearly always win. In a situation like this, you're leaving the poor people defenseless against the looters and criminals.

And gun control doesn't even limit guns to the 'most hardened' criminals. Consider Jamaica, were it's illegal, on penalty of life imprisonment, to illegally own a firearm, and the only people who don't own an illegal gun are those who don't want one. A rudimentary firearm is very easy to construct. The only reason more crooks in Britain don't have them is they haven't put forth the effort to get or make them, perhaps because they don't need them because the populace is disarmed, so a knife will do.

Crazed Rabbit

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New Orleans residents are reluctant to come forward as witnesses, fearing retaliation. And experts say that is one of several reasons homicides are on the rise in the Big Easy at a time when other cities are seeing their murder rates plummet to levels not seen in decades.

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OK when is Pat Robertson going to come forward and claim "Its the hand of the lord punishing these sinners" Thank god it was mostly bad people that died.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

OK when is Pat Robertson going to come forward and claim "Its the hand of the lord punishing these sinners" Thank god it was mostly bad people that died.

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That is sure as hell not why I brought that article up.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

OK when is Pat Robertson going to come forward and claim "Its the hand of the lord punishing these sinners" Thank god it was mostly bad people that died.

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It's funny you mentioned that. I've been expecting either Robertson or Falwell to come out with some sort of ridiculous "flooding from God to smite the sinners" proclamation for some time now.

I guess even those two idiots realize that saying something like that right now might incite a backlash among the faithful that could cost them money, and God for-fricking-bid that should ever happen.

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That is sure as hell not why I brought that article up.

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And sure as hell realized that ~D I just figured I would beat them to the punch. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

blah, blah, blah,

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Whoah, dude, you might want to take a quick step back and reevaluate. Did I mention genetics? Did I even indirectly suggest that it's all hopeless and we should just revive the ante-bellum colonization movement and have it over with?

Racism ain't great and color-blindness may be a good direction towards which we as a nation may evolve-- but blindness of any sort isn't much help in trying to understand a situation.

DA

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I guess even those two idiots realize that saying something like that right now might incite a backlash among the faithful that could cost them money, and God for-fricking-bid that should ever happen.

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I think Phelps already beat those guys to the draw.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured...r-katrina.html

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

Whoah, dude, you might want to take a quick step back and reevaluate. Did I mention genetics? Did I even indirectly suggest that it's all hopeless and we should just revive the ante-bellum colonization movement and have it over with?

Racism ain't great and color-blindness may be a good direction towards which we as a nation may evolve-- but blindness of any sort isn't much help in trying to understand a situation.

DA

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Sorry, I read what you wrote and being a little tired of the back and forth in this thread, I thought you were suggesting that because the people here a BLACK, that this is why the situation was so dire. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

And sure as hell realized that ~D I just figured I would beat them to the punch. ~;)

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Ah, just making sure.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

I think Phelps already beat those guys to the draw.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured...r-katrina.html

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That is a parody site. There is no such organization.

(EDIT: Not saying you didn't know, just making other people reading this thread aren't mislead.)

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

If you can land a helicopter near the superdome why your goverment doesnt start land some Chinooks there and start evacuoting people the hell out from the superdome?

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I’m asking the same thing, or at least flew a few bags of groceries there. Did we all of a sudden loose the ability to airdrop supplies? And what about the news helicopters? They couldn’t have stopped at a supermarket and brought some milk for the starving babies? Oh no, it is more important to get the footage of the dying babies on the air than to save them. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

And as far as shooting to kill the looters, I say shoot away. After only three days you're not hungry enough to NEED to steal. And if you're doing it armed, you're asking to be shot regardless.

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I'm wondering how do you know that? Been without food for three days?

Has anyone here been without food for 3 days? Any marines or something?

It looks like that news helicopters should have a new name:vulture.

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

It looks like that news helicopters should have a new name:vulture.

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Well I don't much care for the news media myself, but they did bring the situation at the New Orleans Convention Center to the attention of the public.

Michael Brown of FEMA was telling people yesterday that he just found out about the refugee's at the center. The city government established the Convention Center as a shelter before the storm, so I do not understand how he didn't know it existed. It seems the news media has a better grasp of the situation than the various levels of government.

I said to imprison Bush not for his handling of this disaster, but because he has sapped valuable personnel and resources from our nation's services to kill people in another far-off country when they should be here providing crucial services for situations like this.

That is criminal.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I said to imprison Bush not for his handling of this disaster, but because he has sapped valuable personnel and resources from our nation's services to kill people in another far-off country when they should be here providing crucial services for situations like this.

That is criminal.

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Actually you would be incorrect - with even this statement. Try reading the National Response Plan and the mission of FEMA.

The criminal neglect on this situation comes from other then the whitehouse.

Oh come on now, Tachikaze. Even you & the MoveOn.Org crowd can do better than this. Less than 10% of the National Guard is deployed in Iraq. Adding in Afghanistan & Kuwait (apparently, we still have a large deployment there) brings the total deployment up to 12.5%. Louisiana itself had 66% of it's Guard available to it on Saturday.

The geographic situation, the lack of an adequate evacuation plan and a hesitation to send in large numbers of Guardsmen early in the crisis are the three leading causes for what's going on. You can blame Bush & Iraq for a lot, but not this. Try again, but thanks for playing. ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Oh come on now, Tachikaze. Even you & the MoveOn.Org crowd can do better than this. Less than 10% of the National Guard is deployed in Iraq. Adding in Afghanistan & Kuwait (apparently, we still have a large deployment there) brings the total deployment up to 12.5%. Louisiana itself had 66% of it's Guard available to it on Saturday.

The geographic situation, the lack of an adequate evacuation plan and a hesitation to send in large numbers of Guardsmen early in the crisis are the three leading causes for what's going on. You can blame Bush & Iraq for a lot, but not this. Try again, but thanks for playing. ~:cheers:

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Tachi would rather snipe from the side lines, smoking weed and banging on his drums like your typical American-hating hippy than actually offering anything contructive... :dizzy2:

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. . . Arkansas crack troops . . .

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~:eek:

Back on topic. Its simple. In order to survive disaster I have prepared. I have some food, some water, rugged clothes, some tools, camping gear, and guns.

I think that I prefer to have the ability to be armed in situations that are lawless or where I cannot expect the state to protect me.

Since I prefer to have the ability to be armed, I must consent to allowing others to have the same rights, so therefore I continue to support the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

If this increases the number of criminals going about armed, then I'm willing to accept that.

On the side, while Del Arroyo probably didn't say it in the best manner, I concur with his assessment that the folks left behind in NO were some of the most disenfranchised and least constrained people in the US. Remember that political corruption is fairly widespread in the region and racial politics are some of the least progressive.

Many of the folks left behind probably have a deeply ingrained feeling of being victims, something the system has encouraged. When I see the news clips there are many people asking who is going to come help them, and while I sympathize that many truly deserve assistance I believe that many others are simply used to having government assistance. For example I don't lots of clips of regular people organizing into any meaningful effective force, instead the scenes from NO they seem to be standing around.

Hope that doesnt sound too harsh, and I realize that I'm not there. But I have been in the middle of many natural disasters (as a professional) and I've seen both responses - one where the 'victims' organize and work together and the flip side where people sit and complain and wait for someone to it for them.

Angry, desperate people who see themsleves as victims can react in very irresponsible ways. I'm sure there are many folks working feverishly to deal with the situation, and I applaud them.

But don't take this as an examply of the need to control guns.

ichi :bow:

Bit side of the topic but the gun control in western Europe is different then Northern European.In my country we have a shotgun or hunting rifle in almost every household and still most of the human killing in here is done with a knife.

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No, they don't have them legally. They looted them from stores like Walmart who had hundreds of guns on their shelves legally.

Do the math about how that relates back to gun control.

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As I previously said, you cannot make laws based on the assumption that at some point society will break down.

Basically, those using this tradgedy to push for gun control are saying: "You need to change your gun laws because at some point in the future society might break down and then youll have a lot of loose guns around."

The basic thought is flawed. You cannot legislate on the assumption that laws will not be inforced. It would be like saying "Everybody must keep at least 5 gallons of water in their house at all times because at some point in the future society might collapse and the government will not be able to enforce its laws."

I think everyone needs to stop looking at ways to use this tradgedy to push their pet political issues.

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Originally Posted by ichi

But don't take this as an examply of the need to control guns.

ichi :bow:

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Gun control is useless when the whole country is flooded in guns. It would take decades to clean it up even if smugglers didn't go into the gunrunning business. You'll just have to settle for the next best thing, giving everyone guns.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

I think everyone needs to stop looking at ways to use this tradgedy to push their pet political issues.

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Smartest thing all day PJ. people are dying and the best some can come up with is Bush in jail becuase we all know a hurricane must be the presdint doing I mean hes right up there with big buisness and the zionists. They best we can do is send aid and pray not bitch about Bush or gun-control

Edit I just found out my church will try and host ten familes after what our mayor said so im happy

Lets hope this guy can help Horone

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And as far as shooting to kill the looters, I say shoot away. After only three days you're not hungry enough to NEED to steal. And if you're doing it armed, you're asking to be shot regardless.

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So you're putting riches and goods over the human lives. WOW ~:eek: that's some irrational way of thinking. Bush seems to have some problems with drugs again, it would be better to him if he first legallice them.

This is so absurd, people dies for lack of prepare and asistence (and for the hurricane too of course) and then a president whom has to do everything to save lives, thinks that the lives of the human beings that he's trying to save are of less value than the goods. I'm begining to think that USA is not so good as someone paints it, but it's just a vission that we here have, between i and some scientist in the universities, sure someone from there could refute me.