Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings

Unlikely Empires is a small scale faction replacement mod for vanilla Rome:TW.

The mod will allow you to play as one of two new factions, Hibernia and Crete. Both of these factions will begin a campaign with only their domestic island province and a low income. This mod aims to provide the challenge of forging an empire from such humble beginnings. :scastle:


I am creating this mod because I would really like to play a campaign in, more or less, vanilla RTW as a small island faction. If anyone else enjoys the mod too, when it's finished, that will be a bonus. ~D

So far, I have spent some weeks researching the histories of these "factions" and compiling notes to base them upon. This has been quite a lot of fun in itself as I have learned a great deal about the backgrounds of these islands. :book:

I have also layed the groundwork for the mod. There's not much for me to show at the moment, but I hope to be able to update this post with more information as I progress.

Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions. :charge:

Sounds very intresting, but what factions are you replacing?

Hi King of Atlantis. I am replacing Thrace and Scythia.

Thrace is greek and Scythia is barbarian, so these are excellent candidates for replacement by Crete and Hibernia for cultural reasons.

The gap left by Thrace is easily filled by a single Thraco-Dacian faction, while Scythia is far enough away from the two new factions for its absence to make little difference to them directly. Scythia will become a strong rebel sub-faction with all of its vanilla units and provinces, to prevent rapid AI expansion in the North-East.

So, you're using the vanilla map? Id recommend using a different one..that map just...sucks. Maybe mundus magnus or something.

Given that Mundus Magnus stretches the map to the east and the south, even further from the lands of Hibernia and Crete, strikes me that all the land added would be wasted.You might want a map that would round out Scotland, that's about it.

Interesting idea, Nigedo. Best of luck with it. I'd be interested to hear of what you're doing with the different units for these nations. Would their entire unit list be available from the start or would their unit list grow as they expand?
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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Given that Mundus Magnus stretches the map to the east and the south, even further from the lands of Hibernia and Crete, strikes me that all the land added would be wasted.You might want a map that would round out Scotland, that's about it.

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Yes, I agree. A more appropriate map might be one that increases the number of provinces without extending the geographical area by much. I may consider it more later.

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Interesting idea, Nigedo. Best of luck with it. I'd be interested to hear of what you're doing with the different units for these nations. Would their entire unit list be available from the start or would their unit list grow as they expand?

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Thank you. ~:)

I am planning on having their unit lists behave the same way as in vanilla, with progression upon construction of the requisite recruitment buildings. Is there another way?

Yes i recommend more province map. Lus you should add to the north to include scotland..

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

Yes i recommend more province map. Lus you should add to the north to include scotland..

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Yes, I'll give it some thought.

Of course, changes to the map will require much more research and modding time, so I need to be cautious about extending the scope of the mod in this way.

Thanks for the suggestions. ~:)

I recommend trying to get one of the earlier RTR maps. More provinces and includes Scotland..

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

I recommend trying to get one of the earlier RTR maps. More provinces and includes Scotland..

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Oh? Which maps are these; made by other modders, or released with an early demo version of RTW?

Where would I find an example of one?

RTR- Rome Total Realism. Currently the biggest mod out..

There new versions have huge maps, but earlier they just added what i said.

Probably version 3 or 4. RTR is hosted at TWC and they have their own forum too...

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

RTR- Rome Total Realism. Currently the biggest mod out..

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Ah, right. Yes of course. I'll take a look at that option then. Thanks. ~:)

Look through the TWC downloads section, some of the old RTR mods are uploaded there, you wont find them in the forum.

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Originally Posted by Nigedo

Hi King of Atlantis. I am replacing Thrace and Scythia.

Thrace is greek and Scythia is barbarian, so these are excellent candidates for replacement by Crete and Hibernia for cultural reasons.

The gap left by Thrace is easily filled by a single Thraco-Dacian faction, while Scythia is far enough away from the two new factions for its absence to make little difference to them directly. Scythia will become a strong rebel sub-faction with all of its vanilla units and provinces, to prevent rapid AI expansion in the North-East.

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I like playing the Scythians/Samatians(RTR 6.0), :eeeek:
Can understand the whole thing with Thrace, but you have the same dynamic with the Numidians with Cathage which could be filled by a single Carthagian-Numidian faction, I could be wrong, just putting it out there. :idea3: Last question, when should it be ready :medievalcheers:

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Originally Posted by Helgi

I like playing the Scythians/Samatians(RTR 6.0), :eeeek:
Can understand the whole thing with Thrace, but you have the same dynamic with the Numidians with Cathage which could be filled by a single Carthagian-Numidian faction

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Hi Helgi. Numidia share the carthaginian culture so they wouldn't be suitable to convert into a barbarian faction.

The mod is mainly to allow you to play as Hibernia or Crete. You will be able to switch quickly back to vanilla (or RTR 6) using the Mod Switcher utility when you want to play Scythia.

When will it be ready? Not for some time. Watch here for updates and I'll let you know about my progress. Thanks for showing interest. ~D

Mod-Switcher compatibility? Good on you, Nigedo.

I will certainly give this a try when it comes out. Best of luck - I can't help much. ~:)

Thanks Alexander. ~:cheers:

I have some doubts about which community standard mods to include within this mod. Hopefully you should all be able to help me work them out. :help:

I want to include Player1's "Bug Fixer", the "Play All Factions" mod (with changes where appropriate) and compatability with Epistolary Richard's "Proper Wonders".

What other vanilla improvement mods should I include or add compatability for?

Are there any good skin/unit replacement mods I should consider (other than "Darth Mod")? :dizzy2:

Doesn't the world standing of Crete make this concept farfetched? Crete wasn't united under one flag after Minoa fell. Maybe you should consider dividing the already small island of crete into two provinces, I think that will better simulate what you're looking for, a ridiculous level of difficulty. From the challenge point of view this looks promising. For Crete I'd like to know what units you plan on making. Will it be very similar to Greece? Archers will obviously play a major role, with maybe some thracian unit types and two unique hoplites, one regular and one elite. You might also consider just for realism a fast moving transport with high attack and low defense, to simulate the effects on technology piracy has had on the island. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Mod-Switcher compatibility? Good on you, Nigedo.

I will certainly give this a try when it comes out. Best of luck - I can't help much. ~:)

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all mods mods are compatible i believe.

Technically. But only one or maybe two have been outright accepting of it. I hope Nigedo also provides a .RMOD download for Switcher Users ("Switchees"?) for convenience. I don't really like having to make my own .RMOD's without knowing if they will work or not. :book:

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Originally Posted by Nigedo

Hi Helgi. Numidia share the carthaginian culture so they wouldn't be suitable to convert into a barbarian faction.

The mod is mainly to allow you to play as Hibernia or Crete. You will be able to switch quickly back to vanilla (or RTR 6) using the Mod Switcher utility when you want to play Scythia.

When will it be ready? Not for some time. Watch here for updates and I'll let you know about my progress. Thanks for showing interest. ~D

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Hi Nigedo, Noted and understood Nigedo, looking forward to seeing the progress of the Mod. As for the mod switcher, I really have no need of it, since I've been copy and pasting my vanilla. I have the XGM mod, RTR 6.0 and TFT 1.7 as well as vanilla.
~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by snevets

Doesn't the world standing of Crete make this concept farfetched? Crete wasn't united under one flag after Minoa fell.

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Indeed yes, very farfetched.:laugh:

In fact, by 300 BC, Crete comprised more than 100 small city states and it remained largely in a state of civil war until the Roman conquest in 67 BC (IIRC).

The best that can be said is that the cities of Crete fell into, more or less, a couple of loose federations by the mid second century BC. They were always fairly quick to band together in defense of the island against foreign invaders though, but that's not to be confused with any kind of real unity. :duel:

None of this is really relevant though, any more than having a Greek faction relates the truth about the various leagues of Hellenic cities that came and went over this period.

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Originally Posted by snevets

Maybe you should consider dividing the already small island of crete into two provinces, I think that will better simulate what you're looking for, a ridiculous level of difficulty. From the challenge point of view this looks promising.

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I'm wary of doing that for this mod. Adding a second province would just place more available territory on the player's doorstep and make their first conquest obvious. Yes, the challenge is what I want it to be about, really. ~:)

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Originally Posted by snevets

For Crete I'd like to know what units you plan on making. Will it be very similar to Greece? Archers will obviously play a major role, with maybe some thracian unit types and two unique hoplites, one regular and one elite. You might also consider just for realism a fast moving transport with high attack and low defense, to simulate the effects on technology piracy has had on the island. Good luck.

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I think you've pretty much outlined my own present ideas on the units, there. I am thinking about making pirates recruitable too, with the construction of ports. :bandana:

Your ship idea reminds of the privateer unit from Civ. I kind of like this idea. Might give that some more thought, thanks. :bow:

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Has anyone had any thoughts about what community mods I should include, or for which I should add compatability? What about skin or model replacers that are considered "standard"?

I remember the privateer. Didn't it piss you off though when your allies attacked them? Argh I hated that. Anyways its good to hear you're taking that direction.

About the provinces, my point is you could make it nearly impossible to conquer the other two cities. That way the territory would not be easily grabbed. Besides, The major task for the unlikely Cretian Empire would've been: unite Crete, this would be well reflected in the mod through impossible odds at conquering the other territories (ignore realism for a moment and make Crete larger, than divide it into 4 or 5 really crappy provinces. This accomplishes the goal of simulating a war to unite Crete, while avoiding the downside of creating an easy empire base). Consider also starting them at war, giving them loads more men than you etc.

In my last post I didn't want it to sound like I'd missed the point about the unlikely Empire's thing, I'm just saying how you need to simulate the unlikeliness effectively. Anyways continue on.

Damn Egyptians were always attacking my privateers...

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Originally Posted by snevets

About the provinces, my point is you could make it nearly impossible to conquer the other two cities. That way the territory would not be easily grabbed. Besides, The major task for the unlikely Cretian Empire would've been: unite Crete, this would be well reflected in the mod through impossible odds at conquering the other territories (ignore realism for a moment and make Crete larger, than divide it into 4 or 5 really crappy provinces. This accomplishes the goal of simulating a war to unite Crete, while avoiding the downside of creating an easy empire base). Consider also starting them at war, giving them loads more men than you etc.

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I like your ideas a lot, but I see some problems with implementing them.

Let's say we'll start with a Kydonian faction at war with Knossus and Gortyn. If we want to make the other two cities strong enough to resist Kydonia, they really need to be part of a full faction rather than controlled by rebels. This would encourage the AI to build in those cities effectively. So the problem becomes; to which faction should these cities belong? The player's faction is then going to be drawn into war with this (mainland) AI faction from the start of the campaign, removing some of the player's freedom to decide on their own initial invasion plan.

Ideally, the opposing cities would belong to another new small faction, also restricted to Crete, but this is impossible due to the limited number of faction slots available.

If I felt it was feasable to have them controlled by rebels and still put up a decent fight, then the idea would be workable. But, for example, I have never had a rebel city raise an army and lay seige to one of my own cities nearby. I don't think rebels are capable of this level of resistance?

A Gaelic faction in this time period would be interesting, to say the least. I'm surprised Ranika hasn't shown to banter all things Irish with you, but that isn't to say he won't.

I always loved the single-province factions in MTW and, quite honestly, I find the late period of any game (with many provinces, I mean) boring.

What kind of Goidilic troops will be available for recruitment? May I suggest that they also get a special ship unit? They were quite reknown for their piracy.

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Originally Posted by Nigedo

I am planning on having their unit lists behave the same way as in vanilla, with progression upon construction of the requisite recruitment buildings. Is there another way?

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Well, the easiest way is using hidden resources (like the Sparta hidden resource in vanilla) so as they expand into winter or desert areas different specialised troop types become available.

I'm suprised you've never seen nearby rebels lay siege to your cities, I'm pretty sure I have. At any rate it doesn't matter because they will attack you if you attack them. The ultimate thing about having them be strong rebels is that there will be no option for peace. All or nothing. Simultaneously you will still have mainland invasion freedom. Honestly I don't see the problem with rebels.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

What kind of Goidilic troops will be available for recruitment?

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Hi NeonGod. The faction won't be strictly Goidelic, the period is more Laginian. But, to be honest, there wasn't much cultural difference between them.

What sort of units do you suggest? The only original unit I have thought about, so far, is some kind of "bata" or stick warband, perhaps like the Gaulish foresters. I am open to suggestions really. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Well, the easiest way is using hidden resources (like the Sparta hidden resource in vanilla) so as they expand into winter or desert areas different specialised troop types become available.

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Ah, yes. I understand what you mean. There isn't really a background for this with these two 'factions'. I'll probably keep it predominantly to vanilla-style recruitment, although I was considering adding pirates as a coastal resource in a limited number provinces, for Cretan recruitment.

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Originally Posted by snevets

The ultimate thing about having them be strong rebels is that there will be no option for peace. All or nothing. Simultaneously you will still have mainland invasion freedom.

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I think the main reservation I have about increasing the island provinces is the changes it would mean to strategy. I want the strategic emphasis to be on managing a mainland invasion from a single island province, supported by one city and one port.

Any change to the domestic starting arrangement will eventually make the mainland invasion easier. Yes, the start may be more difficult. But once the island enemies have been overcome, the campaign will become significantly easier and begin to match the pace of ordinary vanilla campaigns like the Britons.

Three cities (and three ports) supporting a mainland invasion just doesn't appeal to me as much as one struggling province seeking a mainland foothold. ~:) The best proof will be in the playtesting later. We'll see. ~;)

Are not the tribes of Leinster still Goidils?

Well, Europa Barbarorum has already presented the public with a hammer-wielding, armour-bashing unit, but that would be, I think, something to include if the goal was to be as detailed as possible. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Goidilic military in this period, but I'm quite confident that javelin-throwing infantry (not skirmishers )were commonplace. Of course, my pirate suggestion still stands.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Are not the tribes of Leinster still Goidils?

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If we use O'Rahilly's Historical Model, then the Goidels did not permeate the island until around 100 BC. This view is not universally accepted but, to be honest, the iron age history of Ireland is an academic nightmare, comprising broad conjectures interspersed with myth. ~:)

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Well, Europa Barbarorum has already presented the public with a hammer-wielding, armour-bashing unit, but that would be, I think, something to include if the goal was to be as detailed as possible. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Goidilic military in this period, but I'm quite confident that javelin-throwing infantry (not skirmishers )were commonplace. Of course, my pirate suggestion still stands.

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You're right about the use of javelins, of course. Otherwise, I haven't completed sufficient research to begin compiling unit lists, so I can't say. If you have any more ideas, though, I'd love to hear them. Making the unit lists as original and novel as possible is a worthy pursuit.

Pirates are a good suggestion for a unit, as well as a kind of 'boat' unit; perhaps 'hide anywhere' pirate/raiders to represent lighter raiding parties. Also, the 100 BC hypothesis is not very popular, except in terms of when they became the dominate culture on all scales in the island (that is, when both the lower and upper class was Goidilic). However, an Ibero-Celtic aristocracy most likely controlled much of the island for quite a period (at least two centuries prior based on burials and tombs, though the northwest {modern Connacht} seems to have been in the hands of either earlier invaders, or natives; hard to tell, though based on certain Celtic legends, it implies, if we remove the 'mythologized' parts that this region was something of a 'reservation'/vassal at times, and at other times indepedent and an enemy of the Goidilic population; however, invaders were in the island as early as the 500s BC, with Gallic-type Celts inhabitting much of modern Leinster, and mixing with Iberian demi-Celts around 400-350 BC, and Brigante-Britons who inhabitted portions of the eastern part of the island already, forming the earliest Goidilic culture, though they probably only made up the majority of the upper classes/professional warrior class, with natives making up levy troops). Some notes though that can help;

Levies were generally drawn from pre-Iberian/Celtic natives and lower Goidilic populations. Having maybe a native unit or two (archers I'd recommend, as the Irish Gaels in later periods often claimed that archery in combat {though sport and hunt was alright} was not befitting a high class man, and probably recruited natives to do archery originally, leading to this mentality; in latter periods this was a bad detriment as archery supplanted slingers {the preferred Gaelic missile troop}, and Irish archers were generally just hunters levied together), as well as low-class Goidilic levies (probably spear-skirmishers) might be appropriate. They'd be dressed in thigh-length shirts with trews (tight trousers) and leather shoes (they'd not be shirtless).

Higher-class soldiers (that is, the year-round professionals) would wear, as has been discussed with Neongod (we had quite a conversation over at Age of Vikings and Fanatics about Gaelic clothing) a long shirt; aristocracy would wear robes. Cloaks were common; shoulder cloaks for the lowest soldiers (like spearmen, but above militia spearmen), with progressively longer cloaks for the higher class soldiers (with full-length cloaks on chiefs and kings, in addition to robes). They would've worn boots or leather shoes. Chariots were employed sometimes. Cavalry in this period was almost exclusively light cavalry, and any armor employed was most likely overlapping metal scales, padding, bronze chest plates, or leather vests/coats, though apparently they also sometimes imported linothorax from Carthage (this I actually learned working with EB, it's amazing what different historians can find out from eachother that you'd not notice if you stay only in your field). Chain armor may have been imported from Gaul, but I'd stick to metal scales for the absolute heaviest armor available.

Some peculiarities; hammers show up in early Goidilic art, and sometimes remains include them. It's been surmised that this was a devotion to the Dagda, a kind of religious fanaticism (which did seem to carry over into the Christian era; Christian Rastriagha in Munster and Connaght often fought with hammers according to a few sources, notably the nun Goirimidh's writings on the army of Munster, which is sadly overlooked by most historians in favor of more famous writings, which almost always happened long after the events, rather than contemporary authors, largely due to the difficulty of early Gaelic, and field officers carried hammers as well for some time). Maces were also employed a bit later (this period...maybe, it seems they'd have followed suit with hammers, though a hammer was a more practical weapon/tool I suppose), and according to brief 'manuals' (more like pamphlets, really), they were intended to smash shields before spearmen came up from behind and exploited the broken shields of the enemy (such pamphlets show up post-Christianization, of course, but the peoples of Ireland changed very little from this period on; changes emerged, but they were mostly internal, like Munster declaring any non-slave 'aristocracy' in some cases, and phasing out trews except as day-to-day wear, whereas the rest of Ireland/the early Scots were still employing them as a differentiation between levies and professionals on the field). Naked warriors show up occassionally in parts of western Ireland; either a holdover from Celtic invaders or native warriors (I'd assume the former rather than the latter; Ireland is always depicted as 'Celtic', but this title is erroneous in its Gaelic infancy; the strength of Iberian and native culture is apparent in both clothing and arms employed, as well as language and art; it's generally far more Galaecian/Hallstatter than it is Gallic or Brythonic, and some traits don't show up in any of those cultures so seem to be of native origin); this would be an exception to a lack of shirtless warriors, but, well, they lack any clothing; bite me, exceptions. Leather caps, imported iron helmets, or indigenous bronze helmets may be employed as helmets for more well-off soldiers; very well off soldiers and champions used crested helmets with fluting in them (it allowed one to reverberate any screams or shouts, to make them sound more fearsome; Cu Chullain, in the Tain, is said to have such a helmet, and remains of such helmets have been found in Munster).

Weapons, by commonality, would've probably been slings, spears, or axes (also points to a predominance of Iberian or native influence over Gallic or Brythonic; niether of them were still employing axes at this point, but Goidils/Gaels used them as the main weapon of most infantry for centuries). Swords were somewhat rare, though not unused; however, they were generally of short Hallstatt-style (leaf-shaped blades). Longswords were very rare; perhaps on generals or an elite unit. Almost every type of infantry would've employed throwing spears; militias would've used 'darts' (and some infantry may have too; darts show up in legends as a fairly well respected weapon, so it's unlikely they were a 'levy only' weapon). Darts are not like playing darts; they're scaled down javelins (about 2/3-1/2 size of a normal javelin), and appropriate for skirmishing in Ireland and Britain. Slings were a very well respected weapon; so much, in fact, that the Fianna were supposed to have employed them as one of their main weapons (in addition to spears, swords, and axes; if you're unaware, the Fianna were the guardians of the high king in Gaelic legend, and they're not necessarily baseless; real warrior elites did exist in Ireland well into the middle ages). The Fianna did exist in some respect around the early Christian period (they participated in a few pagan revolts, on both sides, and early Christian Irish do write about them be executed or absorbed into the elite soldiers of sub-kingdoms, usually given favoritism and placed in high positions; that is, assuming they sided with the Christians), so they likely existed for at least a short while before hand. Not necessarily good enough to make them faction bodyguards, but basing a bodyguard on them with a sling and capable in melee combat may not be a bad idea (and the name is fairly generic, it's always translated as something more elaborate than it was; 'Fianna Eireann' was essentially 'Freemen of Ireland', implying they weren't bound to any of the petty kingdoms, and obeyed the high king himself; a method of enforcing the high kingship {subsequently, the desolution of such a group around the early Christian era may have lent itself to the anarchic inter-kingdom conditions of the dark ages; Niall of the Nine Hostages, the first king we know concretely of existence, invaded Roman-Britain with the Picts, with quite a force; he clearly had an extent of actual control over Ireland; further, he managed to give the Picts quite an amount of arms and the like, so he apparently had quite a bit of wealth, comparatively, and most likely controlled most, if not all of the island, and thus was a true high king, not only in title but in practice}).

Also, 'bata' is a Saxon-influenced word. The appropriate early word would be 'scoiata' ('fight-club'; or 'fighter's club'). These would be inappropriate for soldiers, but 'peasants' (militia) would appropriately carry such a weapon. Gaels fought with spears overhand (this was called 'fighting in the ancient style'). There, Neongod. I wouldn't have responded if you hadn't mentioned, and now look. Unnecessarily long tirade.

Ah, right on time. "Speak o' the devil", they say.

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Originally Posted by Ranika

Unnecessarily long tirade.

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I would have expected nothing less.

I think I'll take that as a compliment, if I may.

It was meant so. ~:cheers:

A lengthy tirade is always best on the Goidils/Gaels, to ensure they don't look like a carbon copy of Gauls/Britons, as so often can occur, when they looked wholely different. If you don't explain thoroughly, people make assumptions that bring about either generic or poorly implemented inhabitants of Ireland, such as in CA's depiction of them with gallowglass in the dark ages, and art depicting near shirtless 'dartmen' when there would be nothing of the kind there. In fact, in certain regions, it appears fighting shirtless could be fined (some Irish records declare a fine of some pieces of silver or one head of cattle for doing so; apparently something about keeping up appearances, I suppose, since in Connaght it was part of local 'savagery laws' {for lack of a better translation; it's something, more clunkily-like 'non-islander law' or some such}; laws meant to keep the Gaels from looking like natives, even though by that point all the natives had long since been bred out or absorbed into Gaelic culture, so they were probably a bit old in origin).

How peculiar. Connacht got the short end of the stick pretty often, it would seem.

Oh, and Nigedo, there are certain rules to which the clothing of a historical Irish figure must adhere. I'm not sure if you're familiar at all with these, though.

Wow, thank you for that excellent, informative contribution Ranika. ~:cheers:

I won't dissect it all at length with you right now, but I'll certainly use your outline towards further research. Yes, I realise that the 'bata' would not have been an appropriate term, but I was not aware of an accurate one for iron age Irish clubs. ~D However, I think the main reason I was considering this kind of unit was to try and incorporate some idealistic Irish flavour into the faction.

On this basis, I might cause the peasants of Hibernian stock to be an upgraded version of those elsewhere, given their apparent tradition of cudgel fighting for sport (at least in my romantic version ~;) ).

Thanks again. I'll need to take some time to digest the rest and consider how it might convert into game units.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Oh, and Nigedo, there are certain rules to which the clothing of a historical Irish figure must adhere. I'm not sure if you're familiar at all with these, though.

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No, I'm not aware of these. Feel free to lay them out for me. ~:)

If they amount to extensive remodelling of units, I am unlikely to include them, so please don't be disappointed. But I am still happy to learn new information. ~;)

Cudgel fighting for sport isn't simply romantic; early Goidilic metal work often depicts it. Possibly early 'faction fights' or similar. Stick-fighting appears in many Gaelic legends, and is, I believe in the 'deaiscair' ('Chief's Stone') described as 'the first school'; the Gaels developed what were essentially schools of martial arts, for lack of a better term, and took them quite seriously. They show up in most champion legends, at least briefly, but are often given great importance, as it's where the champion would learn his 'feats'; the special skills in combat that would give him an edge. These aren't purely legendary; such schools existed into the middle ages, such as the Black School, which claimed it had invented 'the Rimfeat', one of Cu Chullain's many skills, though the feat itself is described differently depending on source; the Black School 'balanced the shield rim on foot, and threw it up with the foot to block attacks while both hands were in use (using a two-handed weapon/two weapons)'; this seems unusual, but not impossible (though most likely rare as all hell, if used). However, more practical, simple skills were taught as well, such as using two weapons at once (or more; 'Eight-sword style' involved carrying eight shortswords, with different focuses on slashing and thrusting, hung loosely so they could be drawn and employed quickly; this style was still used during the dark ages; even Wolf the Quarrelsome is said to have studied it in at least two sources, I believe).

And Neongod is right; as I mentioned above, there were specific clothing styles employed by Gaels. There was, to be brief, the 'levy' style and the 'soldier' style, in combat, but these could vary depending on region (local laws/customs), and the status of the individual soldier. I did not mention 'color laws' and the like though; that would be too extensive probably.

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Originally Posted by Ranika

Cudgel fighting for sport isn't simply romantic; early Goidilic metal work often depicts it. Possibly early 'faction fights' or similar. Stick-fighting appears in many Gaelic legends, and is, I believe in the 'deaiscair' ('Chief's Stone') described as 'the first school'; the Gaels developed what were essentially schools of martial arts, for lack of a better term, and took them quite seriously.

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I've read as much, but like most Irish history of this period, it is interspersed with myth. Certainly there seems to be far more evidence for many aspects of Gaelic culture from the beginning of the common era; further back, the light grows dimmer.

I like to imagine that the roots of cudgel mastery go back as far as the legends have it. I don't imagine the mythical hurling match that preceded the Battle of Moytura, about 300 BC, to have been as regulated as the modern sport. :smash:

Cudgel fighting could date quite a distance back; it's not hard to imagine why. Axe and spear and sword styles emerged, certainly, but anyone could get a cudgel rather easily, and without development technologically, so I don't doubt such combat was being cultivated long before the invasions (and such combat, stick-fighting, is present in much of the world, or was at one time, due to the simplicity and effectiveness of the weapon).

As for units and modelling; doing most Goidilic units would require at least a little modelling to do them right, though perhaps some can be modified from existing Hellenic/Roman/Iberian models (bare-legged fellows in long tunics). The Scutarii model comes to mind, for something a bit more advanced; their helmet isn't too different from 'fluted' Goidilic helmets, and modified to have some Gaelic accoutrements (a cloak and the like), and skinned appropriately, they'd look quite nice as a more advanced soldier.