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The 3rd of October will be a significant date that will both be a turning point for Turkey and EU and for EU internally.
I had requested a debate before about Turkey being a candidate for EU membership. I had also indicated that I am an anti-EU sider.
What's going on in your country about Turkey lately? We are getting daily reports about politicians intentions and declarations everyday. But I'd like to know what the recent thoughts in individual terms are.
This sentence can be taken in two ways :
1 - Oh Really ! Then our very ally US is still has sympathy towards us. How nice !
2 - Turkey being more important than old little Luxembourg? I guess we have a place above Andorra of the mountains, tiny throne of Liechtenstein, football-disabled San Marino.. I think our politicians should re-consider about our strategic partners.
Which one to choose, GC ?
:knight: :medievalcheers: :knight:
How many wars has Turkey fought on the side of the US?
Compare that with Australia and the US.
US still forgets about Australia... we don't get our knickers in a twist over that however.
Yes how long to Thanksgiving? ~;) ~D
Oh, that joke again..
C'mon, Americans have a sense of humor that I really like. You'll never get sick of that word prank, won't you ? ~D
I don't have an opinion on EU membership for Turkey. If Turkey satisfies the criteria, then why not? It's really not a U.S. matter so I'll just watch.
LeftEyeNine, the turkey joke might get really old, but if you've ever had a well prepared thanksgiving dinner you will understand the American fondness for referring to the bird when ever we get the chance. By the way, there was some effort to make the turkey our national bird (by Benjamin Franklin), but it was rejected in favor of the bald eagle.
On Turkey the country, with considerable reservations I think we have to move on with EU membership.
Frankly, she doesn't meet the criteria. She's not in Europe (yes, I know a tiny bit is) and she is way too poor. It took time to digest the Iberians and Greeks, now we have to digest Eastern Europe, we just aren't going to be ready any time soon for 80m million turks with a GDP per head of $7,400 (compare the UK at c.$30,000)
That said there are obvious global political reasons why inviting Turkey in at some point would make good sense and be in the EU's self interest too. So in my opinion we should continue to work to finding some way to have Turkey as a member, which in my view will require a pretty ferocious accession agreement dealing with phasing in free movement of people, compliance with EU law, access to EU structural funds, border control and much else besides
As for what is being said about this in the UK, absolutely nothing. Our government is strongly in favour of Turkey's application but the man on the street is wholly ignorant of it. Which is probably just as well, frankly.
I am aware about England's leadership among the countries that favor Turkey's EU membership. I do not understand why they go for it with such a strong manner, though.
What about France, Scandinavians, Germans or any other one, please ?
I think we shouldn't let Turkey in purely due to their poor human rights record-we could use membership as a carrot to encourage improvement in that area.
Apart from that, as EA says we need time to digest the Eastern European members before inviting in another country with a vastly different standard of living, which the current member states will have to pay to improve. Don't think I against the use if EU funds to improve the poorer members, I'm not, but this would be much too soon.
Left Eye Nine:
As with many other things, I agree with you on this.
on what, Taffy ?
(LEN is the abbreviation I generally use. Patrons, please, feel free to call me LEN. Easier I think.)
LEN:
Turkey/EU: basically every thing you've ever posted on it.
We hope it will annoy the French...Quote:
I am aware about England's leadership among the countries that favor Turkey's EU membership. I do not understand why they go for it with such a strong manner, though
As long as a country's secular laws can be replaced or dominated by religious laws, i think it has no place in Europe.
I think Turkey has a long way to do before it can reach this point as military dictatorship seems to be the only element that can prevent such a regression.
So, Turkey in Europe, yes, but not before it can prove it's secular and democratic permanent attachement : it is not exactly Vatican and Vatican's theocracy is already too much.
Come on, you don't mean it?Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Now, you know, Germans will be much more annoyed than us by Turkey and you know what happens when both France and Germany are annoyed by something?
Yes, they do world wars to each other to solve the problem.
As we win only about 50 % of those wars, this is not a very interesting bet to take and since we (almost) won last time, it shall be their turn for this one!
You don't want to see us losing another war do you?
How stupid am i, of course you do, you perfidious Brit!
But for this one, you shall miss your point!
For you will be the ennemy, this will change things a bit for once!
And we will be with the krauts!
You do not stand a chance!
Two third world nations, Britain and Turkey, opposed to the shining superior glory of France and the quite not so bad Germany - let us be condescending(?) a bit, they deserve it - with Putin's Russia that would cut it's own throat rather than helping Turkey, the ready to kill everyone balkanic countries to block the turks, you are done!
We can cross the channel by foot, reaction time of your western protector are so slow that British population's mother tongue will be french and german before they notice anything, no, i do not see anything to help you to counter the crushing defeat you will have to face.
After that we will simply have to deport the whole population of Turkey in your island and everybody will be happy, no kurds, no armenians, no english, so great!
So i say, for the common good, vote 'no' to Turkey in the union and make the brits vote 'yes'!
Hem.
I do not drink enough wine these times i suppose.
But Petrus, Turkey's status as a secular state is second only to France's, in terms of the law. I know there have been interventions by the military to prevent democratically expressed islamic wishes taking root, but don't you see the introduction of Turkey into the EU as a way of bolstering the secular tradition in Turkey? In other words, what you put as a precondition might in fact be acheivable only as an outcome?
Its might also trigger some useful reappraisals within the EU, for example in the UK, abolishing church schools, removing protection of expression of religious belief from the ECHR, and so on.
We ALWAYS are the enemy, its just in the past we have been on your side as the enemy. Just ask De Gaulle.Quote:
But for this one, you shall miss your point!
For you will be the ennemy, this will change things a bit for once
Anyway, actually I was rather hoping we could have the Germans this time. The past two times have shown they are pretty tasty customers so I think its our turn to have them. Also the Turks and the Germans should be on the same side, as in 1916, otherwise the Americans will get very confused. You can have the Americans, which should be very amusing in its own right, and of course they will be a few years late.
What!!???Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Are you guys starting all over again!!???
Where did I put that Green Card?... :brood:
Last I read about Turkey was some bitching about that Onur Air business, apparently people are being snide about the whole thing.
As for joining the EU, I don't think it should bite off more than it can chew. Adding all those new eastern european countries was a stretch and I really don't think the EU is ready for a nation like Turkey, along with all it's political baggage. Though I can't really imagine the EU leaders having the guts to stop the process this late in.
I have already read this argument, from Michel Rocard, a very strong europhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
I know Turkey is a very strictly secular country, but it still appears as potentially religious-based, as the role of the army in the institutions show it.
I do not think the adhesion to Europe would help it concerning secularism, just look at the actual charia-wanabe government they have.
Contrary to other political parties existing in Europe such as the CDU in Germany, islamic parties have a religious written law thay can promote at least inside their own borders.
As long as this remain possible, i think Turkey shall be outside and work at it, on a democratic basis, without military interference.
I know, i know, it is just that you have a bit below the average slaughtering level on the continent for the last six hundred years so i forgot a bit.Quote:
We ALWAYS are the enemy, its just in the past we have been on your side as the enemy. Just ask De Gaulle.
De Gaulle has been dead for a while and his - theoretical - heir is Chirac so i ask you, would you trust Chirac more than one second if he wished you, say, a good day?
You CHEATER!Quote:
Anyway, actually I was rather hoping we could have the Germans this time. The past two times have shown they are pretty tasty customers so I think its our turn to have them. Also the Turks and the Germans should be on the same side, as in 1916, otherwise the Americans will get very confused. You can have the Americans, which should be very amusing in its own right, and of course they will be a few years late.
We didn't have the Germans with us since Napoleon and they turned their weapons against us in the end so it doesn't count!
It is absolutely out of question to let them side with you, we would have to take someone else and it would be too short to be worth playing.
No, let us make three parties : you keep the Turks so that the balkanic ones can have a bit of fun, this will distract them from their civil wars, a very good thing for Europe, and Germany and France play for themselves.
The winner takes the americans when they arrive, after some times, so that they finish the business as usual.
Turkey? I didn't even know that it was planning to join the EU : British media have stayed away from the matter as far as I can tell. There are never, or rarely articles about it in the national papers, let alone the Courier ; Auntie seems to care much for a quick broadcast on neither radio nor televion nor t'internet.
Frankly, I do not think that Turkey does not fit the requirements for membership. It is certainly quite poor ; insists on claiming half of Cyprus, something which it shall have to stop ; and, of course, the small matter of its continent, since only Constantinople and some little places to the north and west thereof are part of this glorious peninsula of Europe
Well, the poltical party in power AKP has a cadre consisted of islamically enthusiast politicans once. However, they gave unbelievably moderate views of Islam before the last elections that Turkish nation gave them a chance. The political power had been possessed by the same parties who wasted the whole time and financial power of Turkey when they were the governors for years. So that for the last 2-3 elections Turkish nation tried new or ever-tried-before poltical parties. Examples may be MHP + DSP coalition in 1999 (nationalist party + Cyprus hero Ecevit's left wing party ) or the newly founded political party of a former media giant Cem Uzan's GP had won the %7 of the total votes in last election. However, his whole power is destroyed by AKP after the elections. Uzan family does not even possess any companies in Turkey anymore.
And AKP gathered a significant level of votes (%34.43), long awaited CHP getting %19.41 (founded by Ataturk as the sole party) in elections of 2002.
3-4 days ago, in Istanbul, a fanatic religious group gathered after leaving the mosque who showed their support for a fanatic Islamic terror organization Hizb-ut Tahrir. The policemen only watched the group instead of endind their fanaticism. So many critics - by prime minister Erdogan as well - were directed towards the policemen's indifferent attitude. All newspares headlined the news with "Radical Islamic manifest in the middle of Istanbul!".
The army's effect can not be limited to a powerless state unless this fanatic Islamic threat is eliminated. They have been our fuse against such chaotic threats before although they several times had to damage the democratic progress of Turkey. If we give up on them, Turkey will be a playground for these so called "spider brains" (Islamic fanatics are called this way in Turkey).
I guess by that measure the UK is non-European entirely. Which it is, my friend, I would not dispute that for a minute. The BBC does pay attention to Turkey's EU membership bid occasionally. Turkey is the big blob at the bottom on the right hand side of the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Malcolm
Sorry but it is internationally Istanbul for the last 552 years. We call it "Londra" in Turkish, but it is London internationally. That's not a matter of Greek - Turkish conflict, that's a political and geographical fact.Quote:
Frankly, I do not think that Turkey does not fit the requirements for membership. It is certainly quite poor ; insists on claiming half of Cyprus, something which it shall have to stop ; and, of course, the small matter of its continent, since only Constantinople and some little places to the north and west thereof are part of this glorious peninsula of Europe
Cyprus issue totally belongs to another topic for a debate. I won't be attempting anything before I gather stabel and reliable information about the history of the matter.
Britain is an island off the coast of mainland Europe, Turkey is Asia Minor, with a little triangle of land at the bottom right of the map.
Sorry, I just think Constantinople is a much nicer name than Istanbul.
Turkey is a growing part of the European economy and the European community of states and brings with it a cultural inheritance that will benefit us all. Britain is America Minor. It doesn't even have a small triangle anywhere except in Ireland, which it should leave in the same way Turkey should leave Cyprus.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Malcolm
:book:
The majority of denmark dont want Turkey in the EU simply because you are a moslem country.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Heh, in France, everyone forgot Turkey, the EU and all that things a few months ago.
So to sum up,
Europe and USA are going through an amnesia. I hope that's not epidemic..
LEN:
Istanbul has only been the official name since the early 20th century.
That's why so many incentives were given. The government wants to stabilize the welfare of the country.
Turkey has a very strange economical pattern among others. The countries that face crisis like ours were generally driven into social disruption as it happened the way in South America. People were only complaining about extreme poverty when it was 2001, a very severe crisis was suffered.
What's more Turkey somehow provides an economic growth, free from the economical state it is in..
That, however, never improves the purchase power simultaneously.
I told you, our economic pattern is really strange..
I may also predict that free pass granted after EU membership will empty one seventh of this country, which would be a serious situation for EU countries to handle. However this would be a first moments shock, by time that Turkey's welfare increases, the population movement will come into balance...
But I still do not want an EU membership :)
OK Taffy, then it's been a total of 100 years - pretty time to get used to the name, isn't it ?
In short term , yes, it would bring down the average EU economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
In the long term, it would bring the average EU economy up. Why? Because when Turkey converts to a richer and more wealthy lifestyle, their demands will increase - creating more jobs through europe, since they, as a country, consume more.
So, in a monetary sense, it's an investment.
Of course, to many money isnt an important factor. they (christian, right wing, concervatives) want europe to remain a christian project and keep islam outside.
Certain right wing individuals, with their minds focused only on doom and destruction, have always been crying: "The wolf is coming!" no wolf never came though. They said the same thing with Spain/portugal, Poland and various other (at that time) less developed country. The wave of immigrants just never happened, why will it happen now then, with Turkey? Because they are moslems? give me a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
It never occured to them, that people would want to stay and help build new foundations for their country, instead of fleeing to where the immediate wealth is.
Granted, some immigrants have come, but people from Denmark emmigrate as well. In fact, if no immigrants come to denmark withing the next 25-30 years, our wellfare state, as we know it, is doomed. Too many elderly, not enough manpower. Immigration will save europe, not doom it.
You are mistaken. Firstly, it´s not 80 million but 70 million. At least now. Secondly, the number of 7400 dollar is irrelevant. It is not - and it is dismaying that this has to be repeated so often in discussions about that - as if anyone would plan to grant Turkey EU membership next week! The date we are discussing about is 2020. If you consider the growth in Turkey of 8.2% per year that makes a GDP of 24,000 dollars when Turkey enters the EU. That´s more than Greece has now. This is speculative, but any argument that Turkey will not meet economic requirements by 2020 are equally speculative.Quote:
Frankly, she doesn't meet the criteria. She's not in Europe (yes, I know a tiny bit is) and she is way too poor. It took time to digest the Iberians and Greeks, now we have to digest Eastern Europe, we just aren't going to be ready any time soon for 80m million turks with a GDP per head of $7,400 (compare the UK at c.$30,000)
That Turkey will get taken over by islamists is unlikely. Many Turks are very loyal to the ideas of Ataturk. The current government is as fundamentalist as common European christ-democrats.
BTW, the EU has promised Turkey that it will have a chance to become a member for more than 30 years now. If we rule out the possibility now, that´s simply deceit.
LEN:
firstly, it has not reached the century mark yet.
secondly, I am being anal.
~D
Thirdly, yes, plenty of time for people to get used to it.
(although, to be fair, it's not like many English speakers go out of their way to use the correct official name for a city in a non-English speaking country, or even the correct official name of the country e.g. not many people call Greece "the Hellenic Republic" in English).
What will be the growth for the rest of the EU?Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
I think Turkey should join... just not at the cost of a secular EU.
Well, I guess the fact that a lot of people call Istanbul as Constantinople is because the latter sounds waaaay cooler.
No, seriously, it gives a romantic historical impression of an ancient magnificence of the city.
However, if you visit the city today, you will call it Istanbul, because it is now Istanbul through and through (the problem is - how can we define what is Istanbul in a literary sense? Leave this to the Turks to figure it out) and no longer Constantinople.
I want to note here that europe is not what was called a "christian club ", it is a secular institution and that’s what makes it’s strength and it’s ability to group so many countries with so many different traditions.
The comparison between Christian democrat parties and Islamic parties is also wrong as both of those kind of parties are conservators but where Christian democrat can only promote laws based on Christian beliefs, Islamic ones have a written ideology that can only be interpreted by religious and that is very strongly discriminative toward one half of the population – women – and totally incompatible with European democratic standards.
As noted before, the Turkish military institution is the main element that prevents secularism to shatter in this country and such a scheme is not admissible in Europe.
Moreover, islam with it’s written and inalterable laws – sharia – and it’s religious judges – imams – is something that can challenge the legal institutions. This does not mean turkey will ever be a Taliban-like state but given the fact that Turkey will be one of the most populated countries and a political heavy weight in Europe when it will join, it is a major problem that must be solved before adhesion.
Those different points and the poor example of evolution of countries that joined when they where not ready to do so such as Greece make me think that turkey shall join Europe but that it has to evolve greatly before to do so and that speed is an enemy both of Turkish interest and of Europe general interest.
@ A Saturnus, you did notice that I was in favour of continuing Turkey's accession I hope? I realise full membership is some 15 years off at best but I would be happy to make a bet Turkey will still be relatively very poor compared to the EU average at that time. However the gradual introduction of poorer countries into the EU is a well established process and one that is overall a good thing for us all as GC notes.
I am not remotely persuaded by the "we need immigration to replace the population" argument, but that is another matter. (My views may well be coloured by living in the south east of England which is rather overcrowded already.) I think it is generally understood that freedom of movement would have to be phased in, not because we don't like turks but to avoid destabalising Turkey. Though as this has not been too much of a problem for Iberia or Eastern Europe I suspect in fact it would not be too much of a problem for Turkey either.
The broader argument is if we do not join with a country which in many ways it makes good sense to join, and which is already part of the west in significant ways (NATO, mainly) simply because they are Muslim, we are making it clear that the west is indeed a Christian (or post Christian) club. We have to decide if we want to increase or decrease the fault line between the Muslim world and the sensible christian secularists. (And what is more build a strong secular base to oppose the possibility of a fundamentalist USA.) As Turkey represents a fine example of muslim secularism, I would say she makes quite a promising candidate.
LEN why are you opposed to entry? It seems a no brainer for Turkey?
@English Assassin,
I am opposed to enter. Because it is just a "lazy" way not to try to stand on your own feet with such a dynamic and wise population, and instead prefer joining some community by giving incentives that look essential from outside which are damaging in the long run for us.
I still don't get why northern cyprus Turks have to be left alone with their own fate. I still don't get how dare we can give incentives to Kurds who are already independent with their deeds in the country, politically financially and culturally, who are the leading factor to social corruption in Turkey. That 13 million Kurdish population the foreigners talk about is consisted of "rabbits reproducing every single day". The uncontrolled and rapid population growth is a result of poverty, the over-masculine culture (women have absolutely no power within Kurdish culture), and the strategy implemented over Kurds years ago by PKK to claim the forename "serious minority".
It's at least a "smiley news", seeing Germany towards PKK's deeds, called by Europeans democratic actions for years. But you know, you have to taste it before you can figure what it's all about. Germany saves its own secularity in the long run by closing off Ozgur Politika newspaper and investigation of several residencies that PKK may have roots in. (Although I sense some "vote hunt" by Schröder who is in favor of Turks..Whatever he has already done a good job for Germans..)
It's impossible to leave MGK's control power over government since we are always close to the globe's "recent" topic : terrorism. Governments, intentionally or unintentionally, may ignore the threats growing before they boom out. At least, under current conditions, weakening military discipline over government for democrasizing is not rational..
When we are in EU, we will be a desperate target for AQ and its followers. I am doubtful if we are wanted in a way that we actually get involved the fight against AQ. It does not mean we are appreciating it right now, though. I explained what Islam is about many times before.
Economically, FDI's (foreign direct investment) will seriously damage the SME's (small medium sized enterprises) here. Turkish private sector is not strong enough to handle that flock which is caused by incentives and tax-giveups given to foreign investors and the cheap labor here.
I am a conservative one, you see. However, I am very very pleased to get reaction from you about Turkey. Whatever I told above as causes that prevent me from being an "EU fan" means no offense. If, say, as the Danish think, it is a Christian club, we have to stay out. That's not isolation or drawing thicker lines between religions, or another topic. It's all about staying away from inner conflicts within borders of EU in the future.
We joined EU on the May, last year. And now we can see, that there are many plusses and also a lot of minuses in it. Farmers now get some support from EU funds, but also price of fuel has risen about 80% in a year. And so on and so on. Lot of people moves to work black jobs in UK and other western Europe countries and for us thats not that bad, as they are not the cleverest part in most samples, so its more problem for countries where they go, not for us. So EU here has given oportunities to those who are educated and clever enough to use them, but it also made poorer those who allready had hard times.
Britain is a group of islands off the coast of Europe, it is on the European continental shelf. The majority of Turkey, however, is on the continent of Asia, as is the country's capital. It is a non-European country with a small triangle of land in this continent. Whether the addition of a new culture would benefit us all is a matter of opinion. And the matter of Northern Ireland is a different matter entirely, and is best not discussed in a thread about TurkeyQuote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
One should not petition one's principium, old chap!Quote:
Originally Posted by King Malcolm
:toff: http://matousmileys.free.fr/parisien.gifhttp://matousmileys.free.fr/ali.gifhttp://matousmileys.free.fr/fritounetteke.gif
That last smiley is 'Fritounetteke'...
I want Turkey in Europe. First, she (or he, I don’t know) was the Sick Man of Europe that the answer for those who deny Turkey is in Europe… ~D
Correct me if I am wrong, but Israel is competing in all European events, sports, music etc? And Israel even hasn’t one small part of territory in Europe (geographically speaking). ~;)
Turkey is actually the only country in the region with a secular political regime, and if Germany and other countries can have Christian Democratic Party, why Turkey couldn’t have Muslim Democratic Party.
In term of economy, and I am not an expert, but Turkey is far more dynamic than Rumania (just example) with strong links with the others Turkish-speaking countries around… and perhaps Turkey will be more grateful than Poland which just run in the US arms with EU money… ~D
On that little triangle live about 15 million people. By the same reasoning Denmark is also not part of Europe, in fact. Greenland is officially part of Denmark and not part of any continent.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Malcolm
But why should that matter anyway? It seems unreasonable to let a political, economical and historical matter like that be decided by which continental shelf the majority of the country is on. Sorry, I can´t help but to think that this argument is just an alibi for other unspoken reasons against Turkey.
I have nothing against Turkey to be a part of EU in the future.But EU is now in so sad state of affairs,that we shouldnt take any more members before EU can even get a popular support of its existance among member nations population.
So can British Commonwealth Nations join then? Can the USA join?Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
Why or why not?
Too many asians?
And what was that about the Falklands being British?...Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
~:cool: Wrong shelf, gentlemen!
Howabout all the countries on the interface between two continental shelves?
Do they have to divide themselves up based on the geological definitons?
Should we also look at cratons?
According to German Marshall Funds' very recent poll casted in 9 EU countries, the percentage who favor Turkey's EU membership descended from 30 to 22. A percentage of 42 is unsure about the matter.
Why should Turks, an asiatic people's, join the EU, a european organization. I can understand Israel going into the EU, because they are mostly white from mixing with europeans, but turks are heavily mixed anatolians and steppe people. Neither of which have ever been considered european.
Well, I'm so comfortable with being asiatic and anatolian. This claim of yours is absolutely true.
But I have for the first time seen that Israelis - who come from Hami-Sami race - being called mostly European. They are relatives of Arabs antropologically, shall you know..
I am aware that they are semites, but none of the look like it. A lot of Israelis are blonde and red headed, and also most of them look pure white. That indicates a mostly european background. Think about it, they arived in France in the medival times ~:eek: . They mixed in a millions times since then.
So yeah Israel could enter the EU.
Well, it is not and this is the main problem of the persons who want to put a veto on Turkey's adhesion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Seeing the differences that exist between the different european peoples, it is absurd as Greece, for example, is much closer to Turkey on an ethnical basis than it is from Belgium.
personally, I'm concerned that the EU's human rights laws will possibly destabilize Turkey and will allow the influence of the scary brand of Islam to flourish.
If you want an example of a once non-scary country that became a hotbed of that nasty type of Islam then you can look at Pakistan. I know Pakistan is not in the EU blahblahblah but it did go down that fundamentalist path quite swiftly. A couple of decades of free reign for the scaries and you may find Turkey a completely different place in 2020.
I'm more concerned with this statement
We don't want your dross my friend, we've got enough of our own, mind you most of ours don't even want to work do you want them in return? ~;)Quote:
Yesterday 13:18
Edex
We joined EU on the May, last year. And now we can see, that there are many plusses and also a lot of minuses in it. Farmers now get some support from EU funds, but also price of fuel has risen about 80% in a year. And so on and so on. Lot of people moves to work black jobs in UK and other western Europe countries and for us thats not that bad, as they are not the cleverest part in most samples, so its more problem for countries where they go, not for us. So EU here has given oportunities to those who are educated and clever enough to use them, but it also made poorer those who allready had hard times.
I believe you would be incorrect. Check out Byzantine Prince's comments - it smacks of racism far worse then what is in the United States, its just better hidden in polite language.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Racism exists in all parts of the world - Europe is rife with racism. You can read about it almost daily.
http://www.irr.org.uk/2005/september/ha000012.htmlQuote:
Round-up of racial violence
By IRR News Team
8 September 2005, 1:00pm
The Institute of Race Relations' research over the nine weeks since the London bombings shows that racially motivated attacks are a daily occurrence and many appear, through the use of offensive language, to be a consequence of the bombings. Though much of the harassment has been 'low-level', the effects of such sustained and targeted attacks should not be underestimated.
7 September 2005: A 39-year-old man driving along the A43 in Northampton is racially abused and then sprayed with water through his open car window by White men in another car. (BBC News 8.9.05)
5 September 2005:Daily Mirror reports that Asian soldier, Americk Hayer, 17, is left with his eyeball hanging out after allegedly being attacked by another soldier while on army exercises in Cumbria. He also alleges that that same soldier has racially abused him in the past. (Daily Mirror 5.9.05)
5 September 2005: A 23-year-old man from Formby is arrested on suspicion of murdering Black student Anthony Walker in Liverpool; he is bailed the next day. (BBC News 6.9.05)
5 September 2005: Northern Ireland Newsletter reports that that the Assistant Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) has commented that there is a 'clear link' between Loyalist paramilitaries and racist attacks in the area. (Northern Ireland Newsletter 5.9.05)
3 September 2005: A mother and her two children are left terrified after a 20-strong mob surround their Caerphilly home, throw rocks and shout racist abuse. One brick smashes a window and narrowly misses 2-year-old Tyler Ford. His mother, Angharad Ford, 21, confronts the mob and has clumps of her hair pulled out. Police arrive and disperse the crowd but they return later to shout more abuse. (South Wales Echo 8.9.05)
3 September 2005: Huddersfield Daily Examiner reports that a Muslim teacher at Honley Infants School has been subjected to a racist letter writing campaign. The letter claiming to be from a group of parents at the school says that the Muslim woman should not be employed by the Christian school. Kirklees council has stated that it does not respond to anonymous complaints. (Huddersfield Daily Examiner 3.9.05)
3 September 2005: A 17-year-old Asian cycling home in Canterbury is racially abused by a gang of men and women. Down the road, he is attacked by a man on a moped who hits him with a crash helmet and then punches him until he loses consciousness. As the victim is being treated by ambulance staff at the scene, his father arrives and he, too, is attacked. Police arrest five people, two men and three women, who have all been bailed until 5 October. (Kent Online 6.9.05)
30 August 2005: IC Croydon reports that Asian shopkeepers in Stoneleigh Broadway are suffering nightly attacks by gangs who racially abuse staff and customers and steal from them. (IC Croydon 30.8.05)
26 August 2005: Two boulders are thrown through the window of a house in Chard, Somerset. Police are treating the attack as racially motivated as the house is occupied by Portuguese people. (This is the West Country 31.8.05)
20 August 2005: Two children, aged 7 and 13, are racially abused as they walk to nearby shops on the Nunsthorpe estate in Grimsby. The following day, the two children are again racially abused by a larger gang of youth; the incidents leave them too sacred to leave their home. (Grimsby Telegraph 23.8.05)
19 August 2005: Racist graffiti including NF and BNP slogans is sprayed over a church in Rickmansworth; damage is also caused to windows and the church interior. (Watford Observer 30.8.05)
18 August 2005: A window is smashed at the Bodrun kebab shop in Newbury. On 7 September a 17-year-old girl is charged with criminal damage and racially aggravated harassment; she is bailed. (Click Newbury 7.9.05)
17 August 2005: Three youths, aged, 15, 17 and 16, are charged with wounding with intent to cause GBH to a 15-year-old Bangladeshi student who suffered serious head injuries in an attack in Sunderland. The youths are all bailed. The 17-year-old also faces additional charges of racially aggravated assault, causing ABH and racially aggravated criminal damage. (Sunderland Echo 18.8.05)
12 August 2005: Tolga Uyan, A Turkish take away owner, suffers bruising to his arm, a blood shot eye, scratches to his arm and a ripped shirt after a woman allegedly attacks him at his Easington take away. He also alleges that he was racially abused. The woman who works as a prison guard at Holme House prison is arrested with her son on suspicion of assault and criminal damage. (Sunderland Echo 19.8.05)
5 August 2005: A group of Black friends on a night out in Hereford are racially abused in two separate incidents. In the first, they are abused by a number of youths travelling in four cars and in the second, by a group of three men in their late 40s. The Hereford Times also reports that racist graffiti has recently been daubed in the town and shops have also been reportedly putting up signs banning Eastern Europeans. (Hereford Times 22.8.05)
2 August 2005: A 30-year-old Black man suffers serious facial fractures after being racially attacked by a gang of five local men in Grimsby. Police are treating the attack as racially motivated. (Grimsby Telegraph 3.8.05)
24 July 2005: A 26-year-old man of Pakistani origin is kicked unconscious by two men who kick his head like a football as he lies on the floor. First, the man was racially abused as he shopped in a late night supermarket, and then he was followed out by the two men who attacked him further down the street in Hove. (Brighton Argus 25.8.05)
23 July 2005: Racists throw a brick with a racist message attached through the window of a home in the Highfields area of Leicester. Another brick is thrown at the same house the following day and at another house in the area. (Leicester Mercury 2.9.05)
12 July 2005: A 15-year-old girl, walking her dog, is approached by two White women who tell her to 'get out of their country' and then push her to the ground punching and kicking her. The young girl has been attacked before by the same two women, who had called her a 'P**i'. (This is Oxfordshire 14.7.05)
That’s my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff
What makes the islamist ideology unable to reach power and to impose a religious based society in Turkey?
The army.
Is the military institution of a country an acceptable element to block the will of the people democratically expressed in European union?
No.
What will make impossible for Turkey to become a segregationist country once the army will be limited to it’s military task?
Nothing at the moment.
As long as Turkey has not found a way to remain a democratic country by democratic means, it shall remain outside of Europe and this cannot be negotiated.
While I'm not doubting any of your examples Red sometimes I do wonder if everything reported as racial incidents are, in fact, racial.
I'll give you an example if someone calls me a Scottish whatever is that a racial attack or just plain simple common or garden abuse, if you say it is racial then what if they left off the Scottish part? Would it then just be abuse? For those who say that is a racial attack I would ask why? My main concern would be the "whatever" they called me not the fact that they tagged on Scottish, Jock, Sweaty (Sweaty sock = Jock) or even black, Jew, Chinky etc.
Maybe it's just me but I don't see calling a black man black, or a Scottish man Scottish, as insulting, but then if I'm going to insult someone it'll be because they've done somehting to me not just because they're different.
How is it racism, calling them what they are? The turksih guy posted right underneath me and agreed with me. We are not as PC in that area of the world as you are. We call things what they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Taffy and Redleg,
Thank you for your point-accurate ability of comprehension.
Continuing the Q&A workout of Redleg a bit more on :
Any ways to limit army while dodging the fanatical Islamic threat ?
One would better "dry off the swamp" instead of "dealing with the mosquitos one by one". Turkey is not a self-fanaticising country about Islamic matters. Fanaticism is the "export" of neighbour regimes of ones such as Iran, Iraq and Syria.
We may call "gendarmes" to make up things there a bit then, huh ?
No. The next time another operation by "gendarmes" is held in another country, it will be quite dubious decision to reject the concrete support to them - they will demand it for sure -, such as opening the bases to their military or direct troop support. It will absolutely be some sort of chaos after rejecting USA & allies for the second time. We have the power to resist but the tendancy will grow stronger to a point where the relationship of Turkey and the "demanders" may break. Accepting leads to being a desperate "Hit me, AQ!" challenge. And they already did though we rejected such a support once.
So ?
Is there a way to democratize or smoothen the regimes of the named countries without attracting some reactive stiffness as it is right now in Iraq, then is there a way Turkey can loosen the military belt a bit.
But that's not all. There is still a serious Kurd chaos ahead. Believe it or not, this conflict will grow more serious soon.
@Byzantine Prince
So why are they still chasing the Semitic purposes ? 'Cause they are still Semitic, doesn't matter how mixed up they are.. Phenotype and genotype concepts should be distinguished. How far may they look European (phenotype) they have Semitic genes since ever (genotype)..Quote:
I am aware that they are semites, but none of the look like it. A lot of Israelis are blonde and red headed, and also most of them look pure white. That indicates a mostly european background. Think about it, they arived in France in the medival times . They mixed in a millions times since then...
Most are probably on the line between just flat out hate of your fellow human being - and actual racism. Since most of the reports are from the UK - others would be a better judge if its racism or not. However as an outsider looking at the reports - there is a hint of racism in the attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja'chyra
Well you sort of answered your own question - the use of the racial term would actually qualify it as racism - or at least that is my understanding of racism from several courses both in the military and in civilian life.Quote:
I'll give you an example if someone calls me a Scottish whatever is that a racial attack or just plain simple common or garden abuse, if you say it is racial then what if they left off the Scottish part? Would it then just be abuse? For those who say that is a racial attack I would ask why? My main concern would be the "whatever" they called me not the fact that they tagged on Scottish, Jock, Sweaty (Sweaty sock = Jock) or even black, Jew, Chinky etc.
maybe defining racism would be helpful. Edit: One source defines racism as
definition of racism is any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.
Well if you follow it up with an attack of either verbal abuse or physical violence - its gets real close to what I have seen defined as racism. Calling someone by their racial makeup is not necessarily racism - however if it is the factor that is determining your decision making process then it is indeed racism.Quote:
Maybe it's just me but I don't see calling a black man black, or a Scottish man Scottish, as insulting, but then if I'm going to insult someone it'll be because they've done somehting to me not just because they're different.
Again a prime examble of racism - which is harmless - but is indeed racism.
Quote:
Why should Turks, an asiatic people's, join the EU, a european organization. I can understand Israel going into the EU, because they are mostly white from mixing with europeans, but turks are heavily mixed anatolians and steppe people. Neither of which have ever been considered european
Notice the racism in the statement - advocating denying entry of Turkey because the population is mixed and the country is technically not in Europe - but allowing Israel because people from Europe immigrated to that country and that country is also not in Europe.
So if your not PC in that part of the world - call your statement for what it is - racism.Quote:
How is it racism, calling them what they are? The turksih guy posted right underneath me and agreed with me. We are not as PC in that area of the world as you are. We call things what they are.
LEN:
no comprehending of this thread on my part to be honest.
I did a quick glance and said I agreed with you at the start.
I then did a quick glance later and was pedantic about some historical stuff.
I then felt that I should supply a reason why I don't like the thought of EU + Turkey.
I didn't actually read anything except for the first line or so of anyposts after the fun old Istanbul/Constantinople thing.
Didn't Monty Python do a song about that?
bah.
"they might be giants" did a great song about it. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff
This is the first thing that has been in this thread that I know about with any certainty. Everything else I have chosen to keep my big American nose out of. ~;)
And as another American who should be keeping his nose out of this, isn't the only reason Israel competes in European sports the fact that Asia won't have them? Looking through the Asian Football Confederation list on the FIFA website, I see plenty of countries where staging an Israeli away game would be fatal...
Damn, since Turkey stole our place for the World Championship in Football - I'll give them pay back - kiss the dreams of coming to the EU goodbye *laughs menacingly*
~:cool:
Oh, the song by They Might Be Giants - Istanbul (Not Constantinople)! The Four Lads performance released in 1953 is a lot more pretty, I think. One of the prettiest songs I have heard all time. I like it very very much. The music itself, nothing much about the theme.
" Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it, I can't say
(People just liked it better that way)
Take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks "
Damn carefree lyrics, aren't they ? Aah, bring me the oldies..
@ Taffy,
If ability of comprehension was all about reading, the librarians would conquer the world. Now that's a general claim..
@Sjakihata,
Neither side deserved the match in Istanbul, don't you think ? Draw was the best result. And yes..
WE 'RE COMIN' TO GERMANY ! OPEN THE GATES ! ~D
P.S. You still have the chance and will beat Greece won't you ? ~;)
No, since Turkey won over Ukraine, our only hope is that freakin' Albania will play equal or win over you (not gonna happen) and we still have to win every match. Btw, we beat Georgia 6-1 ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Yes, I'm already aware about the mathematical situation for qualification. Above all, you have to beat Greece.. Please..
Because they are the only threat to you, but remain confident, we will win that one. They are a defensive team against our strong offensive one, and we know how to tackle (literally and metaphorically) such a team.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Calling them as they are is not racist. Saying that they can´t join because of their race - well, it would take a greater rhetorical genius than you to show that that isn´t racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
That´s not necessarily a problem. You might note that in some EU member countries, it is possible to disallow certain political parties. In Germany for example. It is not possible in Germany for a political party to advocate communism or a fascist state. The same could be applied in Turkey. Political projects to undermine the secular nature of the state can be outlawed. And to achieve this the army may be used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus
RP and MSP were Islamic political parties which several times had the govermental power in political timeline of Turkey - under the leadership of the notorious politician Necmettin Erbakan.
They were all closed, Necmettin Erbakan was prohibited from his political rights. His comrade Recai Kutan opened the latest one - FP. The leader is still Necmettin Erbakan behind the curtains. Tayyip Erdogan was a member of RP once, he was a "pupil" of Erbakan.
You let them open, you can not prevent it since the party statute is literally democratic. But their actions blow their cover someday and the party is closed. The remnants open another one as soon as possible. This goes and on and on and on. It is also valid for the Kurdish parties who always were banned after their support to PKK being exposed.
I mean, they do not alreadily expose their ideal in their party statues, how can you ban ? Crime needs proof, nothing possible before as you know. Therefore as soon as they "exagerrate" their allowances as a party, they are closed.
Saturnus, sorry but your statement is far from being possible here.
I'm glad you admit that you are persuadable by rhetoric. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
It makes my act of dismissing anything you say very easy.
It's called a European Union for a reason. Only European nation-states may enter, not one's that have invaded European soil.
Erm...just to make a point here. It seems some of our Turkish patrons may be offended by misinterpreting my earlier post in this thread. By no means I suggest that Istanbul is not a correct/proper name for the city. I am just suggesting that in a literary sense, Constantinople, though on the same location as Istanbul (okay, one was built on another's ruins) it is a different city.
Indeed, if I ever have the luck to visit the city I'd be glad to see beautiful Istanbul...
Though I am not well-versed in the affairs of Europe and cannot make a comment on whether or not Turkey should join the EU.
So NAFTA is nonsense from the start, huh ? You know native Americans have no power on it, the founders are the invaders..Quote:
It's called a European Union for a reason. Only European nation-states may enter, not one's that have invaded European soil.
AntiochusIII,
No problem.. I, very well, understand Greek patrons calling it Constantinopolis; because they have the history all of it. I am not offended anyway a Greek calling Constantinopolis instead of Istanbul. However, it's sometimes all about using the old name to reflect your fanaticism inside. Then this is annoying.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Constantinople was not destroyed after its conquest, was it? It just grew in another culture. I do not know if it was ruined but Fatih had his warriors stopped looting in a day, whereas it used to last 3 days in other conquests..
I know, considering ancient standards the looting of Constantinople was mild, unsurprisingly, though. The Ottoman's ambition is to be an empire replacing the Eastern Romans, and not to lay waste to Europe (and create an empire, too) as Attila. Nonetheless, the city has changed so dramatically culturally that it becomes something different entirely. The strongest symbolization of this is the ancient Hagia Sophia in modern times (what do you call it in Turkey, by the way?) which, continuing to retain its old beauty while includes the change by the new rulers.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine