EU criminal law

Oh dear.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...779849,00.html

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BRUSSELS has been given the power to compel British courts to fine or imprison people for breaking EU laws, even if the Government and Parliament are opposed. An unprecedented ruling yesterday by the supreme court in Europe gives Brussels the power to introduce harmonised criminal law across the EU, creating for the first time a body of European criminal law that all member states must adopt

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Oh dear oh dear.

I'm sorry, but the idea that criminal law can be made by the unelected nomenklatura is just wrong. Plain wrong. (Yes, I know there is a European parliament. I also know it has no powers worth speaking of)

I also note with dismay, but not surprise, that the ECJ continues in its role as a wholly unaccountable legislature, at any event, it applies no judicial pronciples that I recgoniase in reaching any of its decisions (which, curiously, always extend the power of the EU and the ECJ, and never reduce it).

Why does the creation of an EU have to involve the denial of democratic accountability?

You didn't really think that the EU would be content to sit back in some areas and let member states decide what to do?

I remember reading an article by a Soviet dissident who saw this collection of power into the hands of an unelected group coming.

Now you know how US patrons feel about the supreme court- though even our court is made up of US citizens who are theoretically supposed to rule based on the US constitution. Yours is a bunch of unelected Europhiles. Now you guys are going to start losing whatever sovereignty you still have left to the power hungry EU that wants to control every facet of your life. You've lost laws already (have fun with foreigners making the laws-might be harder to fight the war on terror, or sort out those crazy imans that the EU courts won't let you deport), how long to taxes (raised, of course, to add more to EU coffers and French farmers), economic regulations, foreign policy, goverment projects (budgets), etc.

I suppose it'd be a wee bit cruel to tell you I told you so, so I won't say it very loud. I told you so. ;)

Crazed Rabbit

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You didn't really think that the EU would be content to sit back in some areas and let member states decide what to do?

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Well, I sort of hoped they might. I mean, healthy caution is one thing, paranoia another. Except I am starting to wonder if the paranoid weren't right all along.

Its the bloody dirigistes I suppose.

Its not really the same as the supreme court, in as much as, as you say, your supreme court is meant to have a pretty general role given that your constitution is far reaching, whereas the ECJ is supposed to ruile only on treaties that are MEANT to be do do with economics and and meant NOT to include criminal law in any form.

I mean [rant on] for gods sake what do we have to do to keep something out of the hands of the ECJ? "Criminal law is a matter for member states ONLY , we really really really mean it, ECJ this means you." triple underline with red ink. [rant off]

Ah well. One big case and the EU will start to collapse. Hopefully several big cases in different countries all at the same time.

Bring back the trade block and nothing else.

Surely there is something in the rare but existant Uneditable Laws of the UK against this?

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Originally Posted by King Malcolm

Surely there is something in the rare but existant Uneditable Laws of the UK against this?

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Yes. It's probably called treason and should be used against whichever idiot decided to let mainland Europe's laws overule our own.

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Originally Posted by BDC

Yes. It's probably called treason and should be used against whichever idiot decided to let mainland Europe's laws overule our own.

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Ted Heath, and he's dead.

I don't have a problem with EU law overruling UK law, (after all that was obvious in 1972 to anyone who read the Act,) so long as EU law stays where it belongs, ie things to do with, or anyway at least arguably connected to, trade.

What criminal laws are the problem? Is this neccassarily wrong? Couldn't this force states with more harsh penalties into more sane ones?
The enviornmental protection hardly looks bad...

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Ted Heath, and he's dead.

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Let's dig him up and execute him again then. At least he won't complain.

I don't think it's necessarily bad per say, it's just that we don't really get much say in this and we fought three wars in the last two centuries, at amazing human and economic cost, to stop this. Napoleon will be grinning in his grave.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

I don't have a problem with EU law overruling UK law, (after all that was obvious in 1972 to anyone who read the Act,) so long as EU law stays where it belongs, ie things to do with, or anyway at least arguably connected to, trade.

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Why is that where EU laws belong? The EU is not a trade agreement.
As you admitted yourself, GB has agreed to this. Why the heck do you think EU laws are called laws when they can´t be enforced?
There´s nothing undemocratic in this, the supreme court is just binding the members to what they agreed upon.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Why is that where EU laws belong? The EU is not a trade agreement.
As you admitted yourself, GB has agreed to this. Why the heck do you think EU laws are called laws when they can´t be enforced?
There´s nothing undemocratic in this, the supreme court is just binding the members to what they agreed upon.

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Bah, I wasn't even born when the UK joined, and what we joined was only a trading block, not a federal state.

A federal state won't even benefit us. We'll just get all the inefficient French and German laws aimed at protecting their workforces from capitalist forces.

Plus EU law prevents me from stroking rays at aquariums. Damn you all!

They prevent me from putting potato peelings and other kitchen vegetable waste in the compost bin...

Uhh, BDC ? Just out of curiosity, but doesn't the British legislation still include ridiculously outdated pieces of Medieval law still as-such valid ?

By what I know of the precedent-obsessed Anglo-Saxon "common law" system, you're not exactly in a position to criticize French or German legislation as "inefficient".

One tends to hear all kinds of insults aimed at EU legislation and directives, such as the absurd-sounding one about the angle of cucumbers. Know what ? Attempts to abolish that one have met fierce resistance from the farmers themselves...

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Originally Posted by King Malcolm

They prevent me from putting potato peelings and other kitchen vegetable waste in the compost bin...

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What?! When did this happen?

Does this mean half my family are criminals?

The EU/EEC has never been intended to be a trade union. Its aim, from the very beginning was to create some kind of European political union. Call it a federal state if you want (although that wouldn't be totally true).

Quite frankly, I find that to be silly, since European construction is kinda foggy atm, but stop to whine about the EU being more than a trade union, except if you want to make a fool of yourselves.

Well actually the initial point of the EU or EEC as it was known was a self-proclaimed economic union. The politics came later.

I don't see much that is wrong with this. It's fully legal, we are not naive enough to believe that this was a surprise are we?
Anyways it'll help fix some problems, like the dutch law which is obscenly light on murderers and rapists.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

The EU/EEC has never been intended to be a trade union. Its aim, from the very beginning was to create some kind of European political union. Call it a federal state if you want (although that wouldn't be totally true).

Quite frankly, I find that to be silly, since European construction is kinda foggy atm, but stop to whine about the EU being more than a trade union, except if you want to make a fool of yourselves.

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There was another grope that tried to do something similer... called the CCCP... *Or USSR for those who do not know Russian*

It's kept the Brits, French and Germans from warring on each other for some fifty years now, and made things so they're extremely unlikely to start in the conceivable future.

That alone ought to be achievement enough, really. When was the *last* time the three were at peace with each other for so long ?

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

Well actually the initial point of the EU or EEC as it was known was a self-proclaimed economic union. The politics came later.

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Huh, not really. The first treaties obviously created economic unions, but the final aim has always been to promote peace on the continent through the creation common political views and institutions.
A political union would have been impossible without an economical one.

Now, if you don't believe me, read some texts from Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman or Aristide Briand.

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There was another grope that tried to do something similer... called the CCCP... *Or USSR for those who do not know Russian*

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Yeah, except that people from Ukrainia had no choice but to join USSR or to die.
And CCCP, or USSR was clearly working for the Russians and ruled by Russians or Pro-Russians people.

You have heard some of us USAers complaining about the federal government trampling all over State's rights (10th Amendment). Sounds like an similar situation. Hope you have better luck than us...

There are LAWS in Europe? Really? I thought just about everything was legal, except being a non-social democrat.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Why does the creation of an EU have to involve the denial of democratic accountability?

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Yes, you do sound like Crazed Rabbit with his end of the beginning of the end of the beginning of the end of the 2nd Amendment.

This ruling is about democratically agreed environmental law under the EU Treaty. It is a guarantee against certain cheaters of 'Up yours, Delors' notoriety.

Although, as a general rule, neither criminal law nor the rules of criminal procedure fall within the Community’s competence, that does not prevent the Community legislature, when the application of effective, proportionate and dissuasive criminal penalties by the competent national authorities is an essential measure for combating serious environmental offences, from taking measures that relate to the criminal law of the Member States which it considers necessary in order to ensure that the rules which it lays down on environmental protection are fully effective.

Link

What, I thought Americans were the ones who always insisted upon their right to do anything free of any unconstitutional meddling by the "damn feds" ? :tongue2:

*waves his fists against EU* I hate you! Go to hell and die!!

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Yes, you do sound like Crazed Rabbit with his end of the beginning of the end of the beginning of the end of the 2nd Amendment.

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Welcome to the club of making one overwrought statement, EA!

And Adrian, you can join the club for people who get overwrought about overwrought statements.

Also, it seems, at first glance, that your end..begining...end thing could just be called the end of the begining of the end.

Crazed Rabbit

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*waves his fists against EU* I hate you! Go to hell and die!!

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here, here.

The European Court of Justice (I'm sure there is something about foreign courts in the Uneditable Laws...) said that the EU can make criminal law. The environmental bit is a test case, from what I read of the article. It can increase its powers and cover over-fishing, and such like...

Bah, let the fishermen destroy their own livelihoods. As long as we don't have to pay them afterwards. Although no more cod and chips...

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Welcome to the club of making one overwrought statement, EA!

And Adrian, you can join the club for people who get overwrought about overwrought statements.

Also, it seems, at first glance, that your end..begining...end thing could just be called the end of the begining of the end.

Crazed Rabbit

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Point taken, I should have toned down my hyped up tone about your down-toning of ... ehh... well never mind, point taken! ~;)

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Originally Posted by King Malcolm

The European Court of Justice (I'm sure there is something about foreign courts in the Uneditable Laws...) said that the EU can make criminal law.

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No, it ruled that the Commission can force member states to enforce environmental laws which they themselves have adopted, and which they expect all other member states to enforce.

Yes, but now it means that the EU can introduce more criminal laws.

I think this is the kind of thing we Yanks get upset at the UN about...

It's good to see that the UK still follows it's time-honored tradition of allowing 'continental' civil law to creep into it's legal system.

Ever since the establishment of their 'Court of Admiralty' in 1360, England and Wales have accepted the fact that international trade needs international jurisdiction. :book:

Haha! Now you have to put up with a legal system that you have no say in and dosen't support your countries views! :evilgrin: You will lose control of your borders and be pushed around by other nations.

wait a minute...i live in the USA... ~:mecry:

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Yeah, except that people from Ukrainia had no choice but to join USSR or to die.
And CCCP, or USSR was clearly working for the Russians and ruled by Russians or Pro-Russians people.

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And some Russians *I dont* feel that the EU is just another way for France and Belgum to take over Europe... They couldnt do it through War... So they do it politicaly...

In Eastern Europe, the EU is not well liked. Some of us have had enough with things like this...

Manny people here in Volensk are convinced that Europeans are a mess... *Wich kind of hits me hard Because I AM a European by blood*


I really have mixed feelings... :embarassed:

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Point taken, I should have toned down my hyped up tone about your down-toning of ... ehh... well never mind, point taken!

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Right. Glad that's settled.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Right. Glad that's settled.

Crazed Rabbit

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Well, let us say it's a start.. ~;)

Well, I dont think its going to work, at least to work soon. Crminal legislation in different EU countries has more differences then civil law. Also every region has different crime problems and legislation is catching real situation from time to time. Even more - in case of unified criminal law, there sooner or later will be need for unfied criminal process to ensure equal trials and that looks even more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Zharakov

And some Russians *I dont* feel that the EU is just another way for France and Belgum to take over Europe... They couldnt do it through War... So they do it politicaly...

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Yeah, sure, remember last time Belgium tried to rule over Europe :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Zharakov

In Eastern Europe, the EU is not well liked. Some of us have had enough with things like this...

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Not what I understood at all. But then, maybe all we saw a certain may 1 2004 was just propaganda. People from Poland, Hungary, Malta, Lithuania were just very sad (although a lot of people looked in fact really happy), since France and Belgium forced them to join the EU.

Actually, I'm a bit tired of all the 'French is ruling the EU' crap, since as you may have noticed or not, EU cost us more money than most other countries, we got sucky and powerless Commissioners, etc. I really don't see any valuable proof to support that theory.
Now, if some countries dislike the way the EU works (I'm not too fond either) or with its aims, then, just accept the Treaty and resign, as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

I think this is the kind of thing we Yanks get upset at the UN about...

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Most europeans dont have anything against the UN tho... just the damned EU.
As I see it you yanks dont like the UN and the international courts couse some of your highranking officers might find themself charged with... stuff. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Not what I understood at all. But then, maybe all we saw a certain may 1 2004 was just propaganda. People from Poland, Hungary, Malta, Lithuania were just very sad (although a lot of people looked in fact really happy), since France and Belgium forced them to join the EU.

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Oh yeah, the 'new Europe' cried all the way to the bank when they were allowed into the European Union in 2004. Imagine their suffering at having to queue again, only this time for EU subsidies, benefits, exchange programs, diplomatic support against high-handed Russia and what have you.
:dizzy2:

AdrianII, everything is not that easy. Yes, we got something from "EU subsidies, benefits, exchange programs, diplomatic support against high-handed Russia " and thats good thing we see in EU (even with the fact that those people who would need those subsidies and benefits most of all are not clever enough to get through high byrocracy and get something from that, only if they are ready to pay a lot to competent agents who suck them out), but we also got incredibly fast price (but not income) rising up to EU level., expensive fuel because of quality standarts etcetc. So there are good things but not everything is so sunny.

I would say - joining EU for many people here had more emotional meaning - to be safe and to be part of something where they belong and from where they were taken out with force, but in economics, its good growth for business but painfull kick to the pockets of many people.

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Originally Posted by Edex

So there are good things but not everything is so sunny.

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Due to the current lack of economic growth pensions, salaries and standards of living suffer all across the EU. Not all new member states are expected to do eauqlly well, of course. The best growth performance is expected from Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic and the Baltic countries. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania will be the fastest growers in the EU I believe.

P.S. Just take a leaf from the Irish example

Yes, I hope to that, and I will get good use of this growth, but not my parents and other people, who are allready in pension age etc . But probably its always so, that someone has to suffer while other gets chances.

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Manny people here in Volensk are convinced that Europeans are a mess... *Wich kind of hits me hard Because I AM a European by blood*

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To be honest, many people here in the EU think that Russia is in a mess.

Only criminals have to worry about this..... *corrects the Patriot hat*