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The Western Roman Empire starts out in worse shape than post-Godfather Marlon Brando. It seems a shame to downsize so drastically in Turn 1 just to stem the red ink. There has to be a better way to survive than reducing the army to peasants and abandoning all cities north of Rome.
Any future Lee Iaccocas out there with thoughts or strategies on how to turn the tide early on (with barbarians literally at the gates)?
I started my second go at WRE last night...
This time I was care to maintain and even reinforce the dominate religion in each settlement (building the approriate shrine, moving in a governer with an appropriate religion). I disbanded all but two of my naval units and a lot of cavalry when the public order level in the city allows it.
So far only one settlement has revolted and after a few turns I olny have 3 with red faces (only one serious on %40 public order) and my financial losses are tailing off at only -4k.
By comparision in my first game I choice to enforce christianity from the start. I lost all of spain, britain and north africa and all of gaul was in continual revolt and I was -30K.
More later...
I almost cried after turn 1. ~:)
In the beginning I lost 11K every turn until it stabilized at minus 140K. Now I`m getting +7K every turn, but still it`s a long way to go before I can actually build or train anything.
I`ve eliminated the Allemannii and reduced the Saxons pieces. All this without training a single unit. It might look difficult, but it`s much easier than what it looks like, I`m afraid. Once my treasury is in + it`s gonna be no trouble to win.
Viking, please elaborate as to how you engineered that massive turn-around.
the key is you gotta get rid of a sizeable portion of your army the first turn. There are alot of cities that have more troops than they need to keep control of the masses. You need to be able to build up an inner trade core to get some real income. Also I have a feeling that having a single religion empire will be easier to run so im converting all my cities to churches.
So, disband almost all your navy and cavalry. Slowly replace garrison units with peasants. This way you start off with positive cash flow even though you might lose a couple cities. You can retake those cities, put the pagans to the sword, and then they should behave.
A good way of getting first-turn income is to sell off your stables, barracks, hippodrome, and any other building that does not directly affect happiness or public health or public order. I suggest you keep your archery ranges, as archers + roman stone walls = murder.
Use that money to pay for ports... lots of them.
Ports and trading posts are the most important thing in my opinion. Gets the positive income flowing after turn 2 so you dont go into the minuses. Disband all peasant units and sit tight. Once there are revolts, wait and there should be loyalist revolts; the ai nearly always moves the garrison out of the city after about 2 turns. A spy would help if you got one but not essential. Or besiege if it doesnt look like its going to happen the exterminate and presto problem solved.
I suggest playing ERE and reconquer all territory lost by WRE.
~;)
give up hopeless provinces. Destroy the buildings and give them to your enemies for cash. You´ll retake them later.
Just out of interest - which provinces are hopeless? Or does it vary?
The key is to try keep the settlements you have and try to conquer new ones. Occupy if you can, mostly you`ll need to exterminate. Keep the taxes as high as possible without the settlements revolting. The point where you suddenly get positive income will almost come by itself; the more battles you play the less soldiers to pay upkeep for, the more turns you play the more citizens you can tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
I`m afraid my 7K boost did only last 2 turns, until Burgundii came and plundered my borders. Then of course the Huns wanted to plunder me too, so after that my income has been settled around +2K. My treasury is now at -21K denarii.
I would disagree with trying to expand, sit tight and the revolting provinces end up revolting back to you anyway. What is causing me strife now is the hords comign into my lands. Luckily they seem to go for settlements with large stone walls so only rams and seige towers to worry about. They only ever seem to build one of each to missleing the ram then putting all you troops round the entrance to the seige tower makes a nice slaughter house. Eventually they wont have any foot troops so cant re-siege.
Archers are definately important in the outlying cities. They help prevent the Hordes from getting their four rams and one siege tower to the city walls. It's funny, but whenever a Horde sieges you, they will ALWAYS siege you with four battering rams and one siege tower. Needless to say, the siege tower is the primary target.
I disbanded every single cavalry unit, created or demolished temples and churches as per province religion at the start. A lot of provinces have very low level or no markets and ports so selling military structures in rear areas and using the money for markets and ports. I also attacked the Alamanni and massacred their population for those precious market building denarii denarii. I have found the Eastern Romans have a habit of attacking Salona, which is one of my richest WRE settlements. I was helped in my most recent game as the hordes either attacked other Germans and the ERE. The Goths sacked sacked every single European city of the Eastern empire. Oddly they did not settle and lost out against forces concentrated in Salona, reinforced from Italy, after they took the city and lost it to a loyalist revolt. The only reason for my holding Salona was a lucky torching of the seige tower attacking the city (incinerating towers seems random - battering it with fire arrows from archers seems usually to have no effect). My level was m/m but others have said the indicated a similar strategy. Disbanding military units, selling unnecessary structure and building markets and ports seems to be the way.
"Consolodating"~;)
Turn 1:
Destroy all pagan buildings. Destroy all military buildings (except in Rome). Disband units like priests, bucellarii, all cavs and all fleets except 2 (Britain and Sicily). This will bring your treasury up to well over 19.000 dinarii. Set all taxes to low and build peasant and christian shrine (1 turn) in all settlements.
You have 5 ZoD (zone of defence): Iberia, France, Balkan, Italy and Africa. Pull all expendable troops together into 5 armies within thoose areas.
Turn 2:
Continue removing expendable troops from settlements into the 5 armies as lyalties goes up. Single out the one settlement in each region that has the lowest loyalty and pull all troops out and make shure loyalty goes down to 0%. Theese 5 settlements are the first that you will terminate. In all other settlements build a christian chapel (2 turns) and more peasants for garrisoning, 2-4/ settlement will usually do.
+"Liquidating"~:eek:
Turn 3:
Lay seige to the "5" settlements that you singled out. For me it was actually 4: Aduatica?/ Iberia, Avaricum/ France, Salona/ Balkans and Mediolanium/ Italy.
Your treasury should now dip well below -5.000 d.
Turn 4:
Take theese settlements and exterminate the population. This will bring some 40-50.000 d. into your treasury. All chapels are now built so you can move on and sacking remainding settlemnts that still won´t hover around 100% with 4 garrisoning peasants and NO general. Repeat, repeat and repeat again until all "pagans" arer rooted out of your new christian empire.
= "PseRamesses´3-turn key" to increased cash-flow ~:cheers:
In less than 2 years you´ve now turned a sprawling civil-war prune empire on the edge of collapse into a cash-making machine. Bring on the hordes!
Now you´re all set. Cash is coming in with 10k/ turn + from exterminating/ enslaving troublesome settlements and you can rebuild the infrastructure you initially destroyed. Don´t worry about other enemies, they won´t come wandering into your lands until they have troops to spare. Guard your border-bridges since a small defensive force can protect it easily. Haven´t even had any major difficulties with the hordes this way.
Be ware though of the commanders you have with pagan beliefs - they are easily bribed, and the barbarbarian factions start out with a lot of cash; 10-15.000 d. This is the reason why I want my garrisoning to work without any generals. Send them to Rome and some monastary (sp?) teachings for a while. Thoose that don´t convert, "hang" as many pagan vices around their necks and send them on suicidal missions.
From here I tend to build, build and build with my focus on defending. When done with this and evrything is solid I expand, usually into ERE-lands and I let the pestering little barbarians stay alive even if they won´t agree on a ceasefire or protectorate deal. Anyway, a good bridge slaughter now and then is always healthy and keeps my armies alert, right?!
Someone should write the definitive guide to demilitarisation of a Roman Empire. Case study: WRE.
How do you take out a siege tower? Can archer fire destroy them? Do you use fire arrow? Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kekvitirae
I'm going to try his with ERE as well, I got it pretty stable in the first 3 turnsm but this could work wonders with a better ordered faction.Quote:
Originally Posted by PseRamesses
Interesting strategy, and one that would seem to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by PseRamesses
That said, I went about it another way, and always was in the black except for maybe 3 or 4 turns (playing M/M):
1) I evacuated the armies in Britain, and Salona. I sold off all the buildings there since I wasn't planning on coming back anytime soon.
2) I didn't feel I could afford unrest, so I kept Christian cities Christian and pagan ones pagan being the tolerant and money needing emperor that I was.
3) I disbanded as many units as I thought I could safely afford to after my first turn so I could see where I needed troops to keep order.
4) From my initial treasury and selling off of assets from abandoned cities, I built as many ports as I could. I continued to build as many ports per turn as I could, spending money on pacifying structures (temples, sewers, etc) only as minimally needed until I got the cash flowing.
5) One of my cities in Gaul usually rebels early on. The Army of Britain's job is to sack the city and get me some money.
6) It is possible to mass an army fairly early just north of the Alps, and launch a pre-emptive strike against the Alemanni capital - they unfortunately don't protect it well. I don't plan to keep it so I sell everything off that can be sold. In all, the strike will generate about 10,000 denari.
7) If you are careful, you can also launch an early strike against the Frankish capital. Again, another sack and sell will gain you 10,000 denari and cripple the Franks.
8) I didn't do this, but it certain cities are not threatened - it make sense to sell off troop producing structures - but don't leave an area totally uncovered - you still need to deal with bandits and rebels who can cripple trade.
9) Mass your fleets together to deal with pirates who can cripple your trade - you really can't afford to rebuild them or build new ones early on, so maxmize your strength.
10) Barbarians are a good form of cash. I sell them my maps and ask 200/turn tribute for 10 turns. They almost never turn me down, if they do, they offer 1,700 for one turn. Easy way to make cash - they must still be in awe of the empire :)
11) I'll add another - more your capital from Rome the city in northern Italy or Massilia - that will cut down on disorder and corruption losses in the rest of the empire and significantly up your income.
I probably net 4,000 to 5,000 per turn by carefully building. I've done some things wrong, I think I could do that better by changing some of my building priorities, but I need to check them out.
IMO the WRE is fixed and must be maintained at all costs. They are great buffer zones against the barbarian hordes and with my method you won´t need to abandon anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
I also made the Celts a protectorate after sacking their capitol on Ireland by sneaking over a small expedition force while my main Britannia Legion was "tied" down defending Eburacum. I gained tons of cash and the celts are now reduced to.... well, a cesspoolian grade of development.
How did you manage to maintain both pagan and christian temples without unrest since your main religion is christian doesn´t the pagan cities revolt or show civil disorder? That was the case for me on my first game with WRE since I didn´t fully understand/ know the effects of religion. It´s, in that case, what MTW should have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Yup. Gained almost 15.000 d. But I waited until 369 ad just so I´d make shure that they would be firmly settled in yet another province. They are now my protectorate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Yeah, I found out this cash-cow too. It´s better to get good cash for your maps than try and trade in theirs as well. I just use tons of spies for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Hmm. Haven´t tried that yet so I must. I can play an alternate continuance of my current game with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
I´m now at 374ad pocketing well over 15k/ turn. Just started defending Salona from the Vandal horde. Finished a 5-battle turn with a total kill/ loss ratio of 22:1!!! ~:eek: in my favour slauhtering over 10.000 vandals that day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Oooops, my scouts reported that a huge Hunnic horde is moving towards Aquicum. Must catch them on that bridge just south of it, he he! See ya!
I sold off all buildings and abandoned Britain, Iberia, Eastern Europe and Northern Gaul. WRE Rebels arose on turn 3. I assembled two large armies from evacuated troops in Iberia and Northern Gaul and attacked and pillaged my way back to my borders, letting the captured cities revolt again behind me.
Due to massive looting cash and reduction in forces from revolt, I was in the black by turn 5-6. I then replaced all garrison troops in non-frontline cities with peasants and began building trade buildings. I have stabilized there and have been earning 3-5k/turn regularly since then. Once my cities are built up to fully exploit trade and increase income, I will convert the fringes to Christianity and re-take Gaul and Iberia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Doesn't doing this induce the barbarians to attack your less-well-defended cities? That always seemed to make me a target under RTW.
I sold map information to the Burgundii. That was a bad thing to do. Now they have all of my Gallic provinces..
Well, it hasn't happened yet, but you could sell to more distant barbarians who are not an immediate threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
It's not that big of a deal. Having a different religion from the emperor is only 5% unrest I think, having a different religion fromt the governor is another 5%. That's not unmanageable. You can also have a emperor of one religion, a governor of another, and they will cancel each other out I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by PseRamesses
Don't think it's necessary to abandon any provinces. I am in turn 5 or so in a VH/VH game, with 40k in the treasury, and have not given up a single province. (and have taken 2)
A few tips based on my experience:
1. Sell off useless buildings (each province should have AT MOST one troop type building; and given archery nerf, I suggest demolishing practice ranges EVERYWHERE. Markets are almost never worth keeping up, as they add trivial income to trade, and also boost pop growth -- a bad thing when you're trying to maintain public order)
2. Keep only as many units as you need to maintain order; in particular, disband cavalry, as they are extremely high upkeep for low mancount (and # of men is all that counts for garrison)
3. Train a ton of peasants. I trained a peasant in EVERY province for at least the first 4 turns. Peasants have TINY upkeep, and high mancount -- perfect for garrisoning.
4. Shift high law/influence generals to key locations. (e.g. carthage is in desperate need of a good governor, and there happens to be one on the island to the north!)
5. Change capital to central location.
6. Use arenas/races. This is absolutely crucial in high pop provinces, since there is no other cost effective way to maintain order. 400 gold for 20% order is a great deal, especially when a province has 2k+ income!
7. Build temple according to majority wishes. This means pagan, for all intents and purposes. (I eventually demolished christian churches even in majority christian provinces because: a) the pagan bonuses are better; and b) my next faction leader will definitely be a pagan)
I think I still got a bit lucky. I had some civil unrest but no revolts. But I'm now in turn 5, and have all of my original provinces at around 100% order. And many of them at normal+ taxes.
10% i believe. And that is a HUGE deal, when you're talking about 20k+ provinces. (because it's very very hard to get order from garrisoning)Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Having said that, it's nothing compared to the 50%+ penalties you'll face if you defy majority wishes in a province
I was having a happy time playing WRE, stopped cash loss 1st turn by auto tax, don't change the people's religion but reinforce it, peasant stack and remove expensive troops in Italy where they won't revolt (8k+ per year now) and held all provinces and then ERE decide backstab and assault Salona:furious3:
Now its a full fledged war with the ERE which I stand no chance holding onto all my eastern provinces. Salona is holding out nice and burnt down a tower as well~:cheers: but they're going sap soon. My eastern legion is one of the least advanced and pretty beaten up after facing one army and winning barely. Now I have to save Salona and face the ERE and their uber powerful armys and hope I can recover in time to face the hoards later:embarassed:
Oh its VH/VH~:cool:
Ive taken out alot of single siege towers with just 2 units of archers with fire. They have also taken out a sap point just in time (after destroying a tower) to stop the Hun Horsemen entering Salona. If the Walls are pretty big (about Salona size I don't know the type) a single ram will always be destroyedQuote:
Originally Posted by Grifman
Replaceing garrisons with cheaper units is definately something you must do.Quote:
I'm going to try his with ERE as well, I got it pretty stable in the first 3 turnsm but this could work wonders with a better ordered faction.
Sacking cities is also very effective against Jerusalem, Sidon, Alexandria, Caeserea and Sinope. This can make you a huge profit in no time.
Like I said above, I gave up about half my provinces and contracted. Starting at about 395-400AD, the WRE Rebels started having problems and I have so far had four provinces and three other armies flip back to my side. This has turned out to be very convenient since I was stable enough to support them by this point.
I tried forcing christianity and holding every province a couple of times with no success. I have loads of riots but no outright rebellions but by the time I have sorted everything out I am getting attacked on all sides :help:
I have Franks, Alemani, the brown barbarian horde (can't remember who they are) and berbers blockading ports, blocking roads, sacking cities, occupying cities and I have no army capable of seeing all them off. Also there is a couple of pirates who always decimate my mediteranian fleet (very annoyingly:furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: )
Before the game came out people were talking about abandoning france and holding the rest, I have tried it. I gave up France and the balkans and reenforeced Italy, Spain and britain. I have taken over scotland and am about to take ireland, I have slaughtered the berbers at tingi and am about to retake some of the citieds I abandoned. BUT MY ECONOMY IS A DISASTER, I am still losing money every turn even after disbanding ALL my cavalry and Fedorati spearmen (the barabarin looking ones). I can't build any buildings to re-enforce my ecomomy or my damage units. ANd when I sack a city all it does is cut back the debt. I just can't do the WRE. I just shambe from 1 problem to the next just to find the original problem has come back
You should really have a go at my approach. See earlier post in this thread or in the guides section: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=54952Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrabals apprentice
Don't force christianity. Go with paganism and make sure you don't have any high influence christians in the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrabals apprentice
Then, as long as you keep training peasants, and send good govs to high pop provinces, you shouldn't ahve a problem holding the entire empire from turn 1.
Apparently from what I have seen most of the cities that have pagan temples are actually christian so it would help to restore them to christianity. In general though it's best not to change their major religion...yet.
Is there any point converting to Christianity? I just let my towns go with their majority religion and had no problems. But it's led to the Empire being pagan except in Italy and N. Africa. There's a slight (5%) penalty from the Emperor being Christian, but that seems nothing compared to the hassle of trying to convert all my cities.
It depends, in the long run Chrisitianity is a good religion to have which promotes both better law and happiness. I heard it's difficult to control cities with pagan temples.
Actually, it's harder to control cities with christian temples. You get max 5% more order from the highest level christian temple (which you should never build in any event -- it's far too expensive). But you'll have 1% more pop growth, which only makes it more difficult to maintain order (higher squalor and higher garrison required).
I won my WRE VH/VH campaign in 375 AD, and every city, including Rome, was completely pagan.
In addition to the order benefits, moreover, pagan temples give better bonuses. +2 exp to troops is particularly nice.
Hmmm I see your point. Though you could simply go Christian, get the Monastry, and then switch to Pagan so you can at least keep those bonuses as well as the priests~D
I restarted WRE again on M/M and found that it's alot easier to micromanage taxes and everything rather than falling back to Italy. In a few turns I took the Berber's captial, which was fatal as that was their only source of income and later I took out their remaining city which left me as ruler of Africa. Yeeha. I also smashed the Allermai captial in turn 2 since they had like, nothing to fight back with and looted it.
I checked which cities were pagan or christian and focused their religions on that to avoid too much unrest.
Most of my cities are back on their feet and I'm currently building my first true field army and just in time as the Huns are coming:duel: THey've already looted Illyria so I'm hoping to fight them at the bridges north of Ravenna. I'm annoyed that they didn't bother touching the ERE along with the Goths and Vandals. Their just beelining straight towards me. I hate it and most of my generals aren't even near the Italian front.
I played a short campaign as the Saxons and used a cheat to check out the map and I found that the Huns have taken control of half of the ERE along with the Roxanis bulldozing the Sassinds. Geeze why couldn't they do that?