MTW: Subterfuge Guide

Note: This is for Medieval: Total War (just to make things clear).

Subterfuge being the actions of the various agents (assassins, spies, priests, princesses, etc) is an interesting element in the game if used right. Based on these forums as well as the Faqs and Guides section there doesn't seem to be a particular guide that delves deep within the mechanics of what makes the agents tick.

One of the most difficult elements is trying to increase the Valour rating of your various units. In addition, it's difficult trying to identify when an assassin will be able to get through the border forts, and then strike their intended target (the only safe way to raise assassins is ensure that their target stays within your territories and simply train masses of them to ensure atleast one gets through.

So, has anyone done any work on something like this. I might give it a go. Each agent would be detailed in the following manner:

1.Missions (and how to activate them)
2.How to increase Valour
3.Chances of success (against various targets)

I'll see what I can start. Any suggestions on what else should be in the guide?

Great idea. One thing to include would be a list of hero agents.

There are heroes in the game that appear for each faction in certain year. Folks might miss them easily, and could probably benefit from a listing. For example "Guy of Gisbourne" appears for the English as an assassin in 1190, he allegedly was the Sheriff of Nottingham's sidekick! and starts with high stats.

ichi

I am a new player on my first campaign, and have had no luck with any agents other than my clerics. And even the clerics only work for me in a massive number just to help prevent revolts.

I am planning on making some new assasins in Syria, which apparently produces especially good assasins. So far, the agents I've used are a bit inept. My empire has expanded almost to what I hoped for, so I would ideally handle aggressive nations using subterfuge rather than invasions at this point.

I think many people would appreciate any light being shed on this subject.

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Which faction are you playing? I assume myself a good user of subterfuge units.
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Hello again Mouzaphaerre. I am playing as the Egyptians. I am recovering from a not so great begining but have a decent position, military, and economy now. My army is really overstretched however, handling Crusaders, Christian Almohad-Rebels, and the Golden Hoard who have just arrived. I have a special reserve of three carefully composed armies to defend against the Mongols, but any help with agents could make a big difference. Thanks very much!

And Ramadan Mubarak if anyone is participating, and even for those who aren't!

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Originally Posted by Abdel Hakam

Hello again Mouzaphaerre. I am playing as the Egyptians. I am recovering from a not so great begining but have a decent position, military, and economy now. My army is really overstretched however, handling Crusaders, Christian Almohad-Rebels, and the Golden Hoard who have just arrived. I have a special reserve of three carefully composed armies to defend against the Mongols, but any help with agents could make a big difference. Thanks very much!

And Ramadan Mubarak if anyone is participating, and even for those who aren't!

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The best way to level up your spies and assassins mostly relies on factions sending loads of assassins and spies your way. All you need to do is leave a few spies and assassins in each of the hot territories, and (depending on how many get sent your way) they level up extremely quickly. I'm currently in 1310 playing the Sicilians. I crusaded all over the crusade objectives and have held them starting in 1150 with the last captured (unfortunately) in 1206. Let's just say I've had a huge number of assassins come my way. Particularly Naples which I've held since the start. There were turns where I got 6-8 assassins/spies in Naples on a consistent regular basis. Before I knew it, my assassins and spies were peaking level 5 (and I mostly had only the first valor upgrade (for assassins). Naples was a sweet training ground.

I currently have a 7 Valor a 6 Valor, and two 5 Valor Spies, along with four 5 Valor Assassins all guarding my important provinces. Only a few of the surviving assassins I've actually used, the others that went on missions eventually met their fate. I believe that having assassins and spies work better than border forts in catching the stealth characters. At the very least you benefit much more by having these agents in your province by the simple fact that you just place them and if someone comes along, they're there to take them out.


It is important to note that I modded my game. I removed the Watchtower and Borderforts from the building file, and much prefer it this way. It changes the game so slightly, and as a result, it's almost a necessity to get the assassins and spies out. I got really annoyed by the fact that if an assassin or spy wandered into a province with a border fort after you assign him to a mission, he's basically dead. If you're targetting enemy agents in your provinces, you have to take a guess on whether the target will move to a different province or stay there. The coin flip nature of this made agents worth more hassle than they were worth. It's important to note that removing the border forts only removed the guaranteed death to your stealth agents. It won't always be guaranteed that your opponent won't always have a similar agent of his own.

Removing the Watch tower and Border forts do have an important consequence. Watchtowers add 20 points to the Loyalty, while borderforts add a further 30 points. What this means is that you're not going to be able to rely on these to boost your loyalty levels (therefore revolts are much more common, which may very well work towards your advantage, as you can quickly seize a potentially profitable target like Venice or Constantinople ;) if the province changes hands too often and the people just don't like it). This means that it will take more time (and troops to build and maintain the people's loyalty).

In addition to removing the watch towers and border forts, I adjusted the Tavern and Brothel tree so that you only need a fort to start the Tavern tree and you can start the Brothel tree at Keep level instead of Keep and Castle. The final adjustment was I halved the time to build these to 2 years per Tavern upgrade and 3 years per Brothel upgrade (compared to 4 years for Tavern and 6 years for Brothel). I might double the cost though, just to make them more difficult to build. I did this primarily to allow the units to get into the game faster.

What is important is that the Brothel levels actually give you 10 points to happiness per upgrade. I decided since the towers were gone to also give the Tavern tree a small happiness boost. Taverns now give the small benefit of 5 per upgrade.

With that said, it was incredibly fun sending my early assassins off and assassinating random characters off at a moment's notice. Princesses, Generals, Emissaries, priests, you name it, they killed it. None were sacred. That of course initiated the AI to build their own. Remember, the AI likes to use assassins against you (particularly at higher difficulties), and as you recall above, I mentioned I counted 8 enemy assassins killed in Naples in one year. The great thing was that these were coming from different sources (not all from the same faction).

I still lose generals every once in a while, mostly because I get lazy and forget to bring along a spy or assassin on military expeditions. Some generals do manage to evade the attack and kill the would be assassin.

The best part about this whole thing is that there were a few decades where someone was assassinating the Pope every turn ;) I even took my shot at him when he threatened to excom me. By 5V assassin (50% chance succeeded brilliantly).


That was a little longer than I intended, but here is a bit more. Emissaries are one of your important friends. If you have the available cash, send an emissary out to find a general with low loyalty. Bribe the general, and for the cash you spend you benefit a couple ways. First is that you gain additional troops (always a positive), the second is that you deprive your opponents of those troops. The third (and best part) is if you bribe a garrison army, you'll gain control of the province and no buildings will get destroyed. That is right. Here is an incredibly useful strategy called the Bribery Blitzkrieg.

Build up a large force (3-4 legions/stacks) and move them into an enemy territory. Bring along your emissary and if your troops overwhelmingly outnumber your opponents they'll likely flee leaving a small garrison behind. Bribe the garrison and on the next turn they become immediately available. Normally it takes a turn after a successful bribe before you gain control of the general that you bribed, but a garrison unit is available immediate. In addition, because it is a garrison army, there will be a small number available, and thus it won't cost very much. Just hope the Faction Leader, Heir or another high loyalty general isn't in there...

The advantage of this tactic is that it is quick (turnaround time of 1 province taken per 2 years/turns), low casualty rate (you're forcing your enemies out of the province and spending a minimal amount of time in a siege), and the buildings left behind are untouched. You'll gain income from all the new provinces which should help with offsetting the bribe costs. Because it's very quick, you can sweep through a region (leaving enough troops to eliminate the chances of a revolt... you could even use the bribed troops for this purpose).


A warning before you start bribing everyone. Bribing is the same as declaring war on a faction, so be prepared to go to war with the target faction. Because of this, if you take a province through Bribery, it still counts as Conquest for the purposes of Glorious Achievements, simply because you're gaining new territory


Ok, I think I'm done.


No, really, I should be done....


Yes, I really am done now...


~D

I like getting emissaries in every province as soon as possible, as they cost so little to produce and this is an excellent way to keep tabs on how every other faction/province is proceeding. The AI often totally ignores you emissaries, so they are very rarely assassinated.

Apart from successful bribery and alliance proposals, is there any other way to get emissaries valour up?

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Ramadan mubarek! ~:wave:

Use your high valour religious agents to break the balance in Christian/Pagan enemy lands, and spies to foster unrest in Muslim ones. It will help a great deal until they build up religious infrastructure. Assasinate enemy clerics in your provinces and always build watch towers and border forts.
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Here is a little bit of information about the percentage chances that an assassin will strike his target. I've tested my Valor 0-2 assassins against a variety of targets. Based on the numbers returned, I've determined that there is this scale that the game uses to determine the chance that an assassination will succeed. To note, I haven't received the 95% in this table but based on my attempts there was a space between 93% and 97% so it seemed to make the most sense.

0% - 7% - 10% - 14% - 17% - 24% - 34% - 50% - 66% - 76% - 83% - 86% - 90% - 93% - 95% - 97%.


Different targets have different places at which they start on the table. Here is a list of the base points (assume all targets have Valor/Command of 0). Generals use their Command stat, while Agents use the Valor stat. The below chart assumes that you're using a 0 Valor assassin. To determine what percentage chance a particular combo has, move the point on the above scale up one position (to the right) for each point of Valor for the Assassin. Then move the point down one position (to the left) for each point of Valor that the target has.

For instance, a 0 Valor assassin going after a V0 Princess has a 50% chance. A V3 assassin on the other hand has an 83% chance. If a V1 Assassin went after a V3 Princess on the other hand, the assassin would have a 24% chance.

As well, a V6 assassin has an 83% chance of assassinating a Rank 0 Faction leader. The list of targets in order of difficulty.

17% - Faction Leader
34% - Faction Heir/Normal General
50% - Princess
66% - Assassin/Spy*
66% - Cardinal/O.Bishop/Ulama
66% - Inquisitor/Grand Inquisitor
76% - C.Bishop/Priest/Mullah
83% - Emisary

* Only applicable if you're going after your own, but likewise also good to know the chances of a particular assassin catching spies and assassins on their own. I presume it uses these numbers behind the scenes for stealth vs stealth.


Inquisitors

I haven't tested inquisitors in the game yet but it does appear that the percentage chance that an inquisitor puts a general on trial for is based on the Zeal in the province. A higher Zeal increases the chance. For instance I tried a V0 Inquisitor trying 2 V3 generals. One was in a province with 56% Zeal, while the other was in a province with 98% Zeal. The general in the 58% Zeal province had a percent chance of 14% while the other had a 24% chance. I will have to run some tests. If anyone would like to assist with this, write down the following information for each combo you attempt. All you need to do is drag and drop an inquisitor on an individual but you needn't go through with the Inquisition. The more results I can get, the better it can be developed into a simple formula. For instance, if I can get 10 sets of results from just 10 people, that will give 100 sets of values to start working out the math.

- Inquisitor Valor
- Province Zeal
- Target Command Rank and Piety score (possibly the later).
- Percentage Chance received.

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Originally Posted by Evil Eddie

I like getting emissaries in every province as soon as possible, as they cost so little to produce and this is an excellent way to keep tabs on how every other faction/province is proceeding. The AI often totally ignores you emissaries, so they are very rarely assassinated.

Apart from successful bribery and alliance proposals, is there any other way to get emissaries valour up?

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I don't believe so. Agents get Valor for sucessful missions (other than spies and assassins who can get Valor passively. Early on Emisarries are unlikely to be touched, but I've seen some factions get assassins early. I've found though that often in mid and late game emissaries become a prime target. I suppose even moreso when they are the tool to use your armies against you ;)

For the most part, I've found most of your agents become targets once you become influencial.

Spies are even better (once you're able to get a few into enemy territory). Depending on their Valor they can let you know when and where an attack is going to go. That's not to mention that a high valor spy can (or atleast should) hide pretty good. They are also possibly able to open the castle gates. Spies can also be used to frame a general for treason. I had a general who got the really bad drinking vice (something like -4 acumen, -3 command (or something similar). His loyalty was the only thing keeping him alive, but he was the govenor of I believe Naples, and I couldn't let a 2 acumen general be govenor when there are other suitable candidates. The first thing I did was use the emissary to strip him of his title. The second thing was to use my Spy to frame him for treason. When it works, it's amazing what kind of Loyalty generator the spy is ;)

I've been compiling assassination probabilities myself, lately but my table is still incomplete, so I'm glad someone else got there first! The player is told of the success chances before every mission, so the info is more useful in terms of seeing the trends - eg faction heirs having same chance as plain generals and so on - and you've done a thourough job in elucidating these. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Inquisitors

I haven't tested inquisitors in the game yet but it does appear that the percentage chance that an inquisitor puts a general on trial for is based on the Zeal in the province.

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Now, I only wished I'd made a note of province zeal myself. I've recently got two separate inquisitors up to 5 valour each, on a variety of targets. One of them got his first star frying one of my own unit leaders (!!) but, since then they've been working on a steady diet of re-emerged Sicilians and - would you believe it - a stack of loyalist rebels who are with the Papacy LOL

The criteria I use for selecting a likely target is the general's Piety rating and, the lower the piety, the better the chances. You'll need to add this to the list of factors you asked people to report on.

For instance, being a 3* general seemed to confer little protection for them and, in that particular case, my 0 valour Inquisitor jumped up to valour 2.

Similar 'jumps' in valour can happen with spies and assassins guarding friendly provinces, according to the valour of who they just caught and killed. Shuttling emissaries and bishops from enemy ports back to your waiting guard, to suck enemy assassins into the trap, can work well.

The one thing outside of your control, with Inquisitors, is that they can only try the leader of a stack. This is handy because, in the absence of leaders with a star rating above zero, the ones with Govenor titles become leader by default, so the ones you fry will be the ones with high acumen, too. ~D

A multi stack re-emergence will give them plenty of choice of targets, without wasting time moving about. Given time, all the stack leaders will be pious types and get themselves released so, eventually, you'll have to move your guy on.

There's another mode, where they simply preach and increase zeal. However, with announcements about Bogomils, Cathars and so forth, 'preacher mode' will eventually lead to them burning the general population. Percentage heresy in the region is reduced but I've found the zeal rating actually decreases, as a result of all the burnings. (This doesn't count as a 'mission' and has no effect on valour rating).

I've seen threads where the player has set a chain of Inquisitors, along the intended route a Crusade is due to take, to increase zeal. High zeal supposedly decreases the desertion rate and increases the 'troop suckage' rate - handy when passing through lands held by a rival Catholic faction.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

I've been compiling assassination probabilities myself, lately but my table is still incomplete, so I'm glad someone else got there first! The player is told of the success chances before every mission, so the info is more useful in terms of seeing the trends - eg faction heirs having same chance as plain generals and so on - and you've done a thourough job in elucidating these. Thanks.

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It's something that I had been trying to figure out myself when I first started. I got the game a while back (probably early March) and played it for a few weeks beat the game with the Italians and then ended up moving to a different game. I had just recently got the Viking Invasion expansion, so I have therefore been playing MTW again.

It's good to know that it's helpful.

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Now, I only wished I'd made a note of province zeal myself. I've recently got two separate inquisitors up to 5 valour each, on a variety of targets. One of them got his first star frying one of my own unit leaders (!!) but, since then they've been working on a steady diet of re-emerged Sicilians and - would you believe it - a stack of loyalist rebels who are with the Papacy LOL

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Yep. A 1 Piety General in a 100% Zeal province has a 100% chance of getting fried even by a 0 Valour Inquisitor. With equal piety and Zeal levels, Grand Inquisitors seem to double the chance of success, so they are well worth picking up.

My goal will be to inevitably fry the Pope. The pope has been assassinated more times than I can count (there must be a 9 Valor assassin wandering around at this point) so it's not as important.

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The criteria I use for selecting a likely target is the general's Piety rating and, the lower the piety, the better the chances. You'll need to add this to the list of factors you asked people to report on.

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Yep, Piety is one of the things I asked for. I quickly determined that Command ability had no basis on the general's chance of survival.

"- Target Command Rank and Piety score (possibly the later)."

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The one thing outside of your control, with Inquisitors, is that they can only try the leader of a stack. This is handy because, in the absence of leaders with a star rating above zero, the ones with Govenor titles become leader by default, so the ones you fry will be the ones with high acumen, too. ~D

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That is interesting to know. What's even more interesting are some of the V&V's like Deep Thinker which increase acumen at the expense of Piety ~;)

It definately makes you consider what your general's piety levels are, and to be concerned about low piety generals if the opposition starts to use Inquisitors.

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There's another mode, where they simply preach and increase zeal. However, with announcements about Bogomils, Cathars and so forth, 'preacher mode' will eventually lead to them burning the general population. Percentage heresy in the region is reduced but I've found the zeal rating actually decreases, as a result of all the burnings. (This doesn't count as a 'mission' and has no effect on valour rating).

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Yeah, Zeal will slowly increase with the Inquisitors presence. At about the 70-80% Zeal mark the Inquisitor will start burning people (this drops the population loyalty by about 25 points), but likewise the Zeal drops the turn afterwards. The loyalty drop is unfortunately only for a turn, and is therefore only useful in a province that is bordering on rebellion. I tried to bring down Constantinople like this (I pumped out so many Bishops and Inquisitors that the entire province of Constantinople was filled with them). Multiple Inquisitors in a province will quickly increase Zeal (but the increase is based on the Catholic population. An inquisitor sitting in a province that is 100% muslim will have a very difficult time with increasing Zeal. I don't know if the Inquisitor increases the Catholic percentage of the population. In any event it's always good when trying to build up Zeal in low Catholic provinces to bring along some Bishops. They will convert the population and the Inquisitors will then increase Zeal. Unfortunately Bishops have a dampening effect on the Inquisitors job so you'll want to get them out of there. Therefore keep lots of Bishops around your low piety generals so that Inquisitors have a much more difficult time putting them on trial.

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I've seen threads where the player has set a chain of Inquisitors, along the intended route a Crusade is due to take, to increase zeal. High zeal supposedly decreases the desertion rate and increases the 'troop suckage' rate - handy when passing through lands held by a rival Catholic faction.

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How it works is that the percentage of Zeal determines how many troops get drained from local forces. The most that can be drained by a crusade is 50% of the total armies. So, if the Zeal in the province is 100% and you have 2000 troops in the province, a crusade will devastate your forces by stealing 1000 troops. This happened to me in Flanders. I had something like 2200 troops stationed in Flanders. Flanders had a 99% Zeal rate. The Spanish sent a crusade through Flanders (in order to use my port and chain of ships). Of each 100-man unit (say spearmen) I lost 49 of them. I lost 29 men from each group of 60-man units. My total forces went from 2200 to around 1100. then the Spanish sent an additional crusade to a different province and further drained another 550 troops.

As a note, it doesn't matter if you block it or allow the crusade to pass through your province. By the simple matter of it entering the province, it will gain converts.

At 0% Zeal, you don't lose any troops, and likely the crusade loses members (which you might be able to pick up if you have an inn in the province ~;) )

Thus what you want to do is try to lower the Zeal rating whenever possible. You may need an Inquisitor to burn some of the population.

While I haven't verified it, I believe that having Bishops in your provinces will slowly reduce the Zeal in the province.

"- Target Command Rank and Piety score (possibly the later)."

Oops. I think I had a brain fart and only the first half of that registered...

Incidentally, I had a session after seeing your previous post and did a few trial targetings with my pair (actually one's a 5* and one's 4*) and was interested to note that province zeal seemed to be the only factor in determining burn probability. The Pope has had a pair of Inquisitors in Naples for about 20 years (now Sicilian) but none of his have any valour. Mine nip in and fry half a dozen individuals, on and off, with no problems. Meantime, all that preaching and frying has reduced zeal to 30% and that's the probability I get even for my 5* one.

I did get a slight anomaly when comparing two of my own unit leaders (neither were stack leader, I pulled them out of the stack for comparison purposes). One had piety 1 and he registered the same % as the zeal level, the other was piety 5 or 6 and got a lower percentage, 24 or 34 versus 76% zeal for the province.

So it seems your initial assertion was correct. Interesting discovery.

I'll still go gunning for 0 or 1 piety generals to get the initial stars onto new Inqui's but will remember to take the zeal level into account. The thing to do is to keep them on the move, or always targeting individuals. It's when you get carried away by military operations and leave them 'parked' for a turn that they start burning the population and, as you say, that reduces zeal and your chances of burning further enemy generals.

Not a lot I can add to your other observations, save for a minor detail.

After a few campaigns, some users may decide to switch off the incidental messages. I always leave them on, so I don't know which ones get filtered out when this feature is turned off (the switch is on the pop-out menu, click the arrow on the edge of the mini-map). Amongst them are events which do increase or decrease zeal, so for 'unexplained' changes, make allowances for these - most affect a specific set of provinces. I think that, after the historical period for crusading has passed, zeal begins to gradually tail off. There's certainly a trend in the events for more writings by educated men and women, which divert the attentions of the populace and dampen zeal.

I can only speculate about what people thought, at that time but some might have perceived excessive piety as being just as bad as atheism and heresy. It would be interesting to see if there is a 'wrap around' point with the generals, whereby piety 8 or 9 are just as vulnerable to being fried as those with 0 or 1 and the ones with 4, 5 or 6, being 'average' are actually the ones which are hardest to zap. We'll have to test it and see.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Incidentally, I had a session after seeing your previous post and did a few trial targetings with my pair (actually one's a 5* and one's 4*) and was interested to note that province zeal seemed to be the only factor in determining burn probability. The Pope has had a pair of Inquisitors in Naples for about 20 years (now Sicilian) but none of his have any valour. Mine nip in and fry half a dozen individuals, on and off, with no problems. Meantime, all that preaching and frying has reduced zeal to 30% and that's the probability I get even for my 5* one.

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Well, it's interesting to see that Valor level has little to do with the probability of trying a general. The greatest benefit a high valour has is that it is more difficult for the opposition to assassinate your inquisitor before he's done his work.

For the most part there are two reactions when the inquisitor goes to work. When an inquisitor sticks around a province, Zeal rises. At a certain threshold the population begins to burn, and Zeal plummets. If there is only one (or maybe two) inquisitors the inquisition will still continue. Zeal will rise again, and the population will burn again. If you swamp a province with inquisitors on the other hand, after the first or second time, the inquisition will be dismantled, and there will be no further effects, and Zeal will stay at a low level.

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I did get a slight anomaly when comparing two of my own unit leaders (neither were stack leader, I pulled them out of the stack for comparison purposes). One had piety 1 and he registered the same % as the zeal level, the other was piety 5 or 6 and got a lower percentage, 24 or 34 versus 76% zeal for the province.

So it seems your initial assertion was correct. Interesting discovery.

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There is an interesting quirk. Faction Heirs seem practically impossible to try for Heresy, regardless of how low their piety.

I have two heirs both with 1 Piety. They are currently in Naples which has 100% Zeal. When I try to fry them with a Grand Inquisitor there is a 0% chance of success. When I try to burn their father, in this case he has 0 Piety, there is a 12% chance.

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It's when you get carried away by military operations and leave them 'parked' for a turn that they start burning the population and, as you say, that reduces zeal and your chances of burning further enemy generals.

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I've found that regardless of whether you move a Inquisitor or not, just his presence will increase Zeal slightly in the province. Enough times, and Zeal is fairly maxed out, and the population is ready to burn. Of course, it does take a month or two before the inquisitor starts an inquisition.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Here is a little bit of information about the percentage chances that an assassin will strike his target. I've tested my Valor 0-2 assassins against a variety of targets. Based on the numbers returned, I've determined that there is this scale that the game uses to determine the chance that an assassination will succeed. To note, I haven't received the 95% in this table but based on my attempts there was a space between 93% and 97% so it seemed to make the most sense.

0% - 7% - 10% - 14% - 17% - 24% - 34% - 50% - 66% - 76% - 83% - 86% - 90% - 93% - 95% - 97%.


Different targets have different places at which they start on the table. Here is a list of the base points (assume all targets have Valor/Command of 0). Generals use their Command stat, while Agents use the Valor stat. The below chart assumes that you're using a 0 Valor assassin. To determine what percentage chance a particular combo has, move the point on the above scale up one position (to the right) for each point of Valor for the Assassin. Then move the point down one position (to the left) for each point of Valor that the target has.

For instance, a 0 Valor assassin going after a V0 Princess has a 50% chance. A V3 assassin on the other hand has an 83% chance. If a V1 Assassin went after a V3 Princess on the other hand, the assassin would have a 24% chance.

As well, a V6 assassin has an 83% chance of assassinating a Rank 0 Faction leader. The list of targets in order of difficulty.

17% - Faction Leader
34% - Faction Heir/Normal General
50% - Princess
66% - Assassin/Spy*
66% - Cardinal/O.Bishop/Ulama
66% - Inquisitor/Grand Inquisitor
76% - C.Bishop/Priest/Mullah
83% - Emisary

* Only applicable if you're going after your own, but likewise also good to know the chances of a particular assassin catching spies and assassins on their own. I presume it uses these numbers behind the scenes for stealth vs stealth.


Inquisitors

I haven't tested inquisitors in the game yet but it does appear that the percentage chance that an inquisitor puts a general on trial for is based on the Zeal in the province. A higher Zeal increases the chance. For instance I tried a V0 Inquisitor trying 2 V3 generals. One was in a province with 56% Zeal, while the other was in a province with 98% Zeal. The general in the 58% Zeal province had a percent chance of 14% while the other had a 24% chance. I will have to run some tests. If anyone would like to assist with this, write down the following information for each combo you attempt. All you need to do is drag and drop an inquisitor on an individual but you needn't go through with the Inquisition. The more results I can get, the better it can be developed into a simple formula. For instance, if I can get 10 sets of results from just 10 people, that will give 100 sets of values to start working out the math.

- Inquisitor Valor
- Province Zeal
- Target Command Rank and Piety score (possibly the later).
- Percentage Chance received.

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That was very interresting , never knew a scale like that existed , or did you just figure that out by yourself.?

anyway, nice job !~:cheers:

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

That was very interresting , never knew a scale like that existed , or did you just figure that out by yourself.?

anyway, nice job !~:cheers:

:balloon2:

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Essentially I took my assassins, noted their valor levels and then dropped them on a variety of targets and noted the target's valor level and the percentage chance of success. From there I filled them into a chart and eventually I noticed a pattern. After I worked out the pattern I was able to easily guess the percentages of the missing entries.

I had a chart like below for each of the agent and general types. As I tested each valor/command combination, I put it in it's appropriate position. This might be a sample of the chart I had for assassins with the empty blanks as values I didn't know (since I hadn't come across that combination), but it was very easy to figure out. After comparing to the other charts it was clear this scale was hardcoded into the game (whether you can change the numbers I don't yet know).

......V0......V1......V2......V3......V4
V0...66...............34......24......17
V1.....................50................
V2...83......76......66...............34

There are a few other things that have % chance that are told to the player. Inquisitors tell you how likely to burn a target (based on province Zeal). When you use spies during a siege, they can be used to "open the doors" allowing you to end the siege immediately and with fewer casualties. This may prove tricky to calculate because you'd have to first get into a siege situation and then there are a variety of variables that are unknown. For instance, a spy had I believe a 50% chance against a garrison with an average general (and that was a 3 or 4 star Spy). Even my 6 Star Spy had only a 7% chance to open the gates of a garrison that had the Faction Leader in it. It may also be based on number of troops in the garrison as well. This is something that will either take a lot of trial and error, or searching through the code or other files (or just asking someone working at CA if they have the numbers ~D )

Excellent idea, sbroadbent. I tried to compile an agent guide myself some time ago, but the idea stalled due to lack of interest (and I am afraid that not everything in it is accuracte). You can find the guide somewhere in this thread: Agents. You can also find information about agents in the Numerology thread at the .Com.

Good job, please keep it up!

Just thought I'd bump this thread as this has some very useful information that might be useful for new players (particularly with the release of the Total War: Eras Collection set there's bound to be some new players).

I had intended to write a more polished version of this guide, but at the time I had moved onto other things and stopped playing mtw. As I recall I was probably also in the middle of selling my house, and I moved back to the parents around that time.

In the interim I think that maybe this thread should get moved to the mtw guides forum, so it doesn't disappear into the depths of the forum again.

In one game, as the English, I attempted to assasinate my own heir as he was so horribly bad while his younger brother showed great promise. The assasination failed and on the next turn I had a civil war break out. I assume this was the result of the king attempting a little fratricide. Now I just send my heir and his motley band of knights on a one way mission to some island to fight and be captured or killed. No jedi knights yet.

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Originally Posted by Lurker on the Threshold

In one game, as the English, I attempted to assasinate my own heir as he was so horribly bad while his younger brother showed great promise. The assasination failed and on the next turn I had a civil war break out. I assume this was the result of the king attempting a little fratricide.

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Yep, a civil war can occur if you try (and fail) to assassinate one of your sons/brothers. That's not always a bad thing, however....

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Originally Posted by Lurker on the Threshold

Now I just send my heir and his motley band of knights on a one way mission to some island to fight and be captured or killed. No jedi knights yet.

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Yeah, that usually is the best way to dispose of unwanted heirs. Occasionally, though, suicide missions can backfire--but in a good way!

Every once in a while, I'll dispatch a crappy prince on a "glorious quest" who refuses to die. I send him on repeated suicide missions, but he keeps managing to somehow survive them. Before you know it, the prince I was trying to kill off suddenly has 5 command stars and 8 dread, along with the "Expert Attacker" trait. ~:eek: Such a phenomenon is not a frequent occurrence, but it does happen.

Slightly later than planned, I now have a pre-release version of the Subterfuge guide I call Medieval: Total Subterfuge. It's in pdf format, and only 83KB in size.

This guide does not yet include the religious characters as I'm still working on them, but does include assassins, spies, emissaries and princesses.

I would appreciate any feedback on the layout, organization or content of the guide. If you have anything that can be added, please feel free to let me know.

Excellent work, sbroadbent. I second the motion to have this moved to M:TW guides.

A few additions:

Assassin/spy valour upgrades
IIRC the valour-upgrade buildings for these agents only became available upon the installation of VI. The same goes for the +2 valour bonus for assassins in Syria. In the VI campaign you there is another upgrade of the spy-building branch: the cunnywarren (+3 valour). Lastly, there also is a hero assassin for the English: Guy of Grisbourne has 5 base stars and is available after 1190.

Assassin/spy valouring
Priests make bad assassination bait: the A.I. seldom seems to go after them for some reason.

Vice detection (whether something is discovered or not) leads the repicient to get the informants line of vices. This is cheap way of lowering his loyalty. Before VI, you could also apply this to your own generals (IIRC before VI this could also be done to your own generals).

Spies also give advance warning if a general in their province is contemplating treason.

Princesses
Marrying one to a general of the royal blood (whether or not he is in the line of succession) will result in a secret incest vice. Fortunatly, the game does not keep track of the relations between various royal families, so there is no risk of incest by marrying only princesses from one friendly nation.

~:thumb:

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Originally Posted by Lurker on the Threshold

In one game, as the English, I attempted to assasinate my own heir as he was so horribly bad while his younger brother showed great promise. The assasination failed and on the next turn I had a civil war break out. I assume this was the result of the king attempting a little fratricide. Now I just send my heir and his motley band of knights on a one way mission to some island to fight and be captured or killed. No jedi knights yet.

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When you set-up one of these "one-way" missions to an island for unwanted heir, always move your ships after he arrives to break the sea connection back to your territory. I've had some of these cheeky Royals with the gall to rout off the battle map (so avoiding death or capture), then show back up in my territory at the start of the next year.

:oops:

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Assassin/spy valour upgrades
IIRC the valour-upgrade buildings for these agents only became available upon the installation of VI. The same goes for the +2 valour bonus for assassins in Syria. In the VI campaign you there is another upgrade of the spy-building branch: the cunnywarren (+3 valour). Lastly, there also is a hero assassin for the English: Guy of Grisbourne has 5 base stars and is available after 1190.

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I'll make a note about the bonuses requiring VI. As to the Cunnywarren, I hadn't realized that there was a +3 bonus for spies, and seems to be only available for the Viking campaign. I'll make a note of that.

As to the Hero units, are there any special requirements, or do you just need to be of the particular faction and train the particular unit during a certain time period? Will just having a basic Tavern be all that is necessary? Will these agents only train in certain provinces?

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Assassin/spy valouring
Priests make bad assassination bait: the A.I. seldom seems to go after them for some reason.

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True, the AI rarely goes after them, but I've had games where my religious characters do get targeted. For instance, I'll have Sweden pumping out priests, and I'll have a few years where my priests will start dropping one by one. I've also noticed that assassins are more likely to start going after your priests when they are in enemy territory and trying to convert pagan (or orthox) provinces, but that doesn't help much for the assassin bait. Still, Emissaries are simply better assassin magnets.

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Vice detection (whether something is discovered or not) leads the repicient to get the informants line of vices. This is cheap way of lowering his loyalty. Before VI, you could also apply this to your own generals (IIRC before VI this could also be done to your own generals).

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True, that is a use for the Vice Detection. How much does loyalty get affected? This would likewise be useful if you're preparing to bribe a particular unit. It'll make bribing more successful, and most likely at a reduced cost.

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Spies also give advance warning if a general in their province is contemplating treason.

Princesses
Marrying one to a general of the royal blood (whether or not he is in the line of succession) will result in a secret incest vice. Fortunatly, the game does not keep track of the relations between various royal families, so there is no risk of incest by marrying only princesses from one friendly nation.

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I'll make a note of these two as well.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

As to the Hero units, are there any special requirements, or do you just need to be of the particular faction and train the particular unit during a certain time period? Will just having a basic Tavern be all that is necessary? Will these agents only train in certain provinces?

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There are no special requirements. IIRC agents are unusual in appearing immediatly after their "birthdate" as opposed to generals, who wait until they are 16. I suppose this is because agents (apart from princesses) are ageless.

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True, that is a use for the Vice Detection. How much does loyalty get affected? This would likewise be useful if you're preparing to bribe a particular unit. It'll make bribing more successful, and most likely at a reduced cost.

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The "informants"-line of vices has six levels, and each level reduces loyalty with one, starting at the second level (informants network) so at the sixth level (assasinator) the character has a -5 modifier for loyalty. The fifth and sixth levels (secret assasination and assasinator) also reduce hapiness with a -2 and -4 modifier respectively (this probably means -20 and -40 province loyalty).

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Originally Posted by Ludens

There are no special requirements. IIRC agents are unusual in appearing immediatly after their "birthdate" as opposed to generals, who wait until they are 16. I suppose this is because agents (apart from princesses) are ageless.

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I presume that means that all you need to do is train a bunch of the particular agents and eventually one will pop up as the special character. That reminds me, in my game as the Sicilians in which I have 4 star spies (a sweet -120% province happiness penalty ;) I noticed that one of my catholic bishops is V5. I wasn't sure if this was as a result of a failed assassination attempt, and the bishop got some crazy Valor boost, or if this could be a special character. The bishops name is Don Cosmas of Mahdia. I did a google search, and Mahdia is a place in Tunisia, while "Cosmas" comes up in a number of different places. In this case, a particular Cosmas Atticus was the Patriarch of Constantinople between the years 1146 and 1147. Seems to be the right era.

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The "informants"-line of vices has six levels, and each level reduces loyalty with one, starting at the second level (informants network) so at the sixth level (assasinator) the character has a -5 modifier for loyalty. The fifth and sixth levels (secret assasination and assasinator) also reduce hapiness with a -2 and -4 modifier respectively (this probably means -20 and -40 province loyalty).

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This information has been added.

Thanks for the help. Any idea on when the thread might get moved to the MTW Guides forum?

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

I presume that means that all you need to do is train a bunch of the particular agents and eventually one will pop up as the special character.

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No, they appear after a set date once train the appropriate agent. You can find them in a M:TW heroes guide (Ky Kiske's guide for M:TW can be found here, IIRC VI does not feature hero agents), but I am not sure which parameter (Command? Loyalty? Piety?) stands for their skill rating.

Also, whereas generals appear 16 years after their birth, I recall seeing Guy of Grisbourne once before 1200, so perhaps they are available immediatly upon birth.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Any idea on when the thread might get moved to the MTW Guides forum?

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I don't know; I am not a moderator of this forum.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

I noticed that one of my catholic bishops is V5. I wasn't sure if this was as a result of a failed assassination attempt, and the bishop got some crazy Valor boost, or if this could be a special character. The bishops name is Don Cosmas of Mahdia.

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I haven't looked at the heroes list in a while, but the odds are extremely good that Don Cosmas Mahdia is indeed a special character. (Valour-5 bishops usually don't just appear at random. ~D ) I know the game does have "Hero" religous agents, so there's no reason why Cosmas isn't one as well. For other examples, the Spanish get some uber-Inquisitor (whose name I forget), and the English get Thomas Beckett.

EDIT: I PM'ed kekvitirae. She responded and said she'll run it by FrogBeastEgg, and that if nothing else she'll add a link to this thread in the Guides' Table of Contents.

Very good work :bow:

sbroadbent, I think your work would benefit from being compiled into a single post rather than scattered across several as it is now. Then it will be easier for people to read and consider, without all the 'interruptions'. ~:) I suggest editing your final guide into the first post of the topic, or starting a new topic with it; then it will be the first thing people see on opening the thread. I know you have the PDF version, but a second, forum based version is never a bad thing and is helpful to those with slow connections or behind a firewall and unable to view PDFs. You can then add a link to the PDF near the start, for those who prefer to view it in that format.

Since the thread is attracting comments and additions here, I think it may be best for it to stay for a short while. When a thread moves to guides comments tend to drop off. From my own experience comments are important to a guide's growth and refinement; I won't want to hamper that ~:) When it goes quieter we'll look at a move.

Well, I found my answer, Cosmas is a special character that appears in the XL mod. Going through the default_heroes text file, Guy of Gisbourne is the only special assassin with the rest being emissaries, bishops and inquisitors. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but the Egyptians get an inquisitor by the name of Ibn Taymiya al-Harrani. I presume Inquisitors are only available to Catholic factions?

As to their skill level, I'm presuming that special agents start at V5. The Command, Dread, Piety and Acumen ratings should only to apply to Generals. I suppose it's so if you say wanted to make Guy of Gisbourne a General instead of an assassin you'd just need to change his type and that he'd have ratings of 3/2/2/2.

As to editing the first message, I'll get around to it when I complete the pdf version.

Thanks Frogbeastegg, when I finish the guide, I'll revise the first message of this thread to include the complete guide.

With that said, version 0.2 has been uploaded here: Medieval: Total Subterfuge v0.2.

My time has been divided between this and Rome Total War, so hopefully I can balance my time ;)

Hi, Ive checked out your guide and Ive found it useful. Ive started sending in assassins to "train" in trouble spots with good results, the guide also highlighted the multiple uses of spies, which I didnt know about, ive been using spies to get rid of treasonous generals, again with good results, so cheers. I think it would be cool to have a section explaining how the Ai factions use agents and what factors make them send agents after the player. In The campaign Ive been playing as the English, I was constantly having generals assassinated, even though I was allied to everyone and generally being nice, I seem to have stoped this with border forts and lots of assassins in training, although the pope seems to have some kind of grudge against me, Im surprised there is anyone left on his staff, given the number of papal assassins Ive caught. Ive used Grand inquisitors to take down many a noble line, but have begun to notice that the faction leaders often move to a region with low zeal, if the GIs initial attempts fail, making it harder to try them. I dont know if this is just coincidence or by design. Good luck with the guide its looking good :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Vidar

Hi, Ive checked out your guide and Ive found it useful. Ive started sending in assassins to "train" in trouble spots with good results, the guide also highlighted the multiple uses of spies, which I didnt know about, ive been using spies to get rid of treasonous generals, again with good results, so cheers.

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Thanks, I'm glad the guide has been useful. It should be even more useful once the religious characters have been added.

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I think it would be cool to have a section explaining how the Ai factions use agents and what factors make them send agents after the player.

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I'm not quite familiar with how and why the AI behaves. This thread would be a useful forum for anyone who has any insight on the AI. It seems purely random, but I guess the primary targets would be low command/valor generals and agents because they'd be easy targets to boost the valor of the AI assassins. I'd suspect they'd also try to take out province governors and other high acumen characters to reduce your overall income by removing the generals that can boost income the best.

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In The campaign Ive been playing as the English, I was constantly having generals assassinated, even though I was allied to everyone and generally being nice, I seem to have stoped this with border forts and lots of assassins in training, although the pope seems to have some kind of grudge against me, Im surprised there is anyone left on his staff, given the number of papal assassins Ive caught.

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Assassins are like pests. When you think you've killed the last one, there is usually one or more still out there out of range. The fortunate thing about assassins is that even if the other factions know that an ally is sending assassins at them, it won't kill an alliance.

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Ive used Grand inquisitors to take down many a noble line, but have begun to notice that the faction leaders often move to a region with low zeal, if the GIs initial attempts fail, making it harder to try them. I dont know if this is just coincidence or by design. Good luck with the guide its looking good :2thumbsup:

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Provinces with low zeal are the best places to protect your generals from roaming inquisitors. In such a case, sometimes it's best to plant inquisitors in some of their provinces to raise the zeal, but after a few turns move them around so that they don't burn the populace.

A useful double-team tactic I've thought about is using inquisitors and spies. You plant a few inquisitors in a province you want to go rebel, and just when you believe the inquisitors will start burning the populace, drop in a high valor spy V3-4. When the inquisitor goes to work, you can sometimes expect a 20-30% drop in province happiness (this unfortunately is for only one turn. Combine that with a 100-120% drop due to a spy, the AI might not have enough troops to keep loyalty up. If you time it right, you might be able to draw forces from their front lines in which you can launch your own attack if you're able to. The only downside is that this only works easily in provinces with high catholic religion.

Just looked over v0.2 of the guide - good stuff!

In the Siege/Trojan Horse section on spies, you might add that the player's best chance for success opening the gates is right after you get the "it is about to fall" message. Turns before this message seem to have lower chances of gate opening success.

This "about to fall" message can also be important if you're attempting to bribe a garrison under siege - it tells you that you have no more time left, should you continue the siege, for any bribe attempts to succeed. The fortification will fall before Emissaries act. If the circumstances are right, there can be occasions when you'll want to lift the siege temporarily, to let your Emissaries get to work bribing.

hi i've been reading the guide and i want to try removing the border forts and was wondering what you changed to edit them out

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Originally Posted by AddictedGamer

hi i've been reading the guide and i want to try removing the border forts and was wondering what you changed to edit them out

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There are two options. The first is if you wanted to remove both Watch Towers and Border forts, the second is if you wanted to retain just the Watch Towers. The first is easiest, but only as long as you play MTW (with or without VI) and without any additional mods.

Presuming you want to just get rid of both, browse to your MTW install folder. Make a copy of the Crusader_Build_Prod13.txt file. If you mess anything up it's a good idea to have something to set it back to default. If you play any mods though, the mods may have different files you will need to change.

Once you're in the Crusader_Build_Prod13 file, make sure word wrap is off, and scroll down to a line that should start with:

1 WATCH_TOWERS "Watch Towers, Border Fort"

I didn't include the entire line because I didn't want to manually type out the entire line, because I'm on one computer and the game is on another computer, and that one can't currently go on the internet. Anyway, you'll want to delete the entire line. In my Notepad, the line is long enough that it wraps to a second line, so you'll want to ensure that when finished, the Ribat entry was just above your edit, and that the entry for the Port is now below it. Once done, just save the file and load the game.

You will probably not be able to play any of your existing save games, as one or more factions will probably have built a watchtower and border fort. Since these are no longer in the game, at best the saves won't load, at worst you'll CTD (crash to desktop). It's best to make these changes when you plan to start a completly new game. Even if you plan to start a new game, you'll only be able to start in the Early era. This is because the other factions will have watch towers and/or border forts in some of their starting provinces.

Presuming you wanted to play in the High or Late eras you will need to do some editing to another file. From your install folder, go to the campmap folder, and then startpos folder. In here you will have the files that control each of the eras you can play. If you want to play in the High era, open up High.txt. Just press Ctrl+F and do a Find/Search for "MakeBuilding". This will take you to the location where the Buildings are placed in each province. You'll need to manually go through the file looking for any entry that says Watch_towers or Watch_towers2. The first is for the Watch Tower, while the Second is for the Border Fort. Delete the entire line to remove the building from appearing in the province when you start a game in that era.

Presuming you only wanted to get rid of Border Forts but keep Watch Towers, you would also need to do this step for any eras you planned to play. Because I usually play with the XL mod, this is something I had to do even though I was getting rid of both.

Getting rid of just Border Forts but retaining watch towers is slightly more complicated. You'll need an editor called the GnomeEditor, and it can be located in the Files section above. Here is a direct link: Gnome Editor

When you load up the Crusader Build Prod13 file it'll organize everything in neat rows and columns. To edit out Border Forts but retain Watch Towers locate line 33 which should be for Watch Towers and change each to the following:
Column 1 (Number of Upgrades): 0
Column 3 (Localised name): Watch Towers
Column 5 (Cost including upgrades): 100
Column 6 (Time to Build including upgrades): 1
Column 7 (Building Conditions): {}
Column 8 (Strategy map infopic filename): Watch Towers
Column 18 (Tech Level): 1
Column 24 (Population Happiness adjuster): 20

For column 24, this is how much of a boost to the province loyalty you will receive so it can be challenging to play without both Watch towers and border forts since you won't get a quick +50% boost to loyalty.

This may seem overwhelming at first, but it is fairly simple to understand once you've messed around with things.

A very neat job, sbroadbent ~:thumb:. As usual, a few corrections:

There is a very visible spelling error in the "special emissary"-section: I suppose PDF couldn't handle the accent in Cretien's name.

Princesses are time sensitive, but they won't dissappear when they have been assigned a target. Thus, you can make them live forever by ordering them to marry a general on an island without ports.

Princesses won't marry generals of opposing factions, only members of their royal family that are directly in the line of succesion. The "gaining valour"- section suggests otherwise.

Marrying them to your own generals won't place them in the line of succession, so they won't get kids (well, they probably do, but you won't see it). However, through their wife they get a claim to the throne and are more likely to become the leader of a rebellion. The loyalty bonus from the marriage will counteract this, though. Marrying your princesses to your own princes indeed results in secret-incest vices, but it will allow you to get heirs faster (off course, getting heirs is an unpredictable occurence in M:TW). AFAIK there is no effect on the V&V's of the offspring, but I may be wrong about that.

To propose to princesses of other factions, simply drop an emissary on them. I find it generally works if that faction just proposed an alliance, or is planning to do so (an emissary of theirs is heading towards your king).

BTW, your signature still points to version 0.1.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

A very neat job, sbroadbent ~:thumb:. As usual, a few corrections:

There is a very visible spelling error in the "special emissary"-section: I suppose PDF couldn't handle the accent in Cretien's name.

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Hmm, I noticed that as well. I think it was more like the game text file with all the special agents couldn't handle the accent. As I recall I copied from it, and in my rush to add that section among other things didn't change it.

I'm currently in the process of reinstalling windows for about the fifth time in 3 days, so my system is down until I can get all the files transfered off the drive and ready for a complete format.

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Princesses are time sensitive, but they won't dissappear when they have been assigned a target. Thus, you can make them live forever by ordering them to marry a general on an island without ports.

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I see. An interesting idea. I thought I had made mention that so long as she is kept on a mission, she'll stick around in the game.

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Princesses won't marry generals of opposing factions, only members of their royal family that are directly in the line of succesion. The "gaining valour"- section suggests otherwise.

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I think this is more an issue of wording that was used. I presume that if you target the faction leader of another faction with your princess, she will try to marry into that faction. I used unmarried generals in this case I believe to refer to unmarried members of the royal family. I suppose it would be more accurate to say, "If the faction that you are attempting to marry your princess to has no unmarried heirs..."

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Marrying them to your own generals won't place them in the line of succession, so they won't get kids (well, they probably do, but you won't see it). However, through their wife they get a claim to the throne and are more likely to become the leader of a rebellion. The loyalty bonus from the marriage will counteract this, though. Marrying your princesses to your own princes indeed results in secret-incest vices, but it will allow you to get heirs faster (off course, getting heirs is an unpredictable occurence in M:TW). AFAIK there is no effect on the V&V's of the offspring, but I may be wrong about that.

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I revised these sections. I did have one game which I found something interesting. My faction leader died, and the heir took the throne. I presumed that I wouldn't have any heirs, but when I checked, my faction gained two heirs. Apparently while he was still an heir, the heir had gotten married, and had kids and by the time he ascended to the throne, two of his kids had already matured. The game obviously keeps this from you, so you have no idea how many levels your family tree spans. I do like RTW in that you can view your entire family tree and see how everything gets connected.

This could explain the situation of hidden heirs, where you eliminate a faction leader, and then his successor immediately afterwards. You presume as such that the faction should be eliminated, when suddenly a hidden heir pops up. In this case, he wasn't necesarily hidden, but the game will only reveal the current faction leader and immediate heirs.

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BTW, your signature still points to version 0.1.

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I made the change, so the new one should appear with this message.

Regarding your comments Geezer, I'll make a note about those when I get a chance to. I'm hoping that I'll be back up and running in a day or so, and depending on my time I'll try to get the religious agents completed.

Since I've tended to play Catholic factions for the most part, do the muslim and orthodox religious agents have any different special abilities? The main abilities appear to be converting the population, proposing alliances and ceasefires, and simply acting as overt spies. Inquisitors have the abilities of trying a catholic general for heresy and raising zeal/burning the population in catholic lands.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Since I've tended to play Catholic factions for the most part, do the muslim and orthodox religious agents have any different special abilities? The main abilities appear to be converting the population, proposing alliances and ceasefires, and simply acting as overt spies. Inquisitors have the abilities of trying a catholic general for heresy and raising zeal/burning the population in catholic lands.

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Imams help convert the populace to Islam, as well as raising zeal in Muslim provinces. They're essentially the Muslim equivalent of a Cardinal combined with an Inquisitor (except that they can't try anyone for heresy, of course).

There is some kind of a bug for inquisitors.

Each time you fail to burn a general he gets a V&V increasing his piety (starting with "Devout" up "Born Again"). You might tink that a general with get a bit immune after a few unsuccessful attempts but if you try to burn a "born again" general once more he get the "atheist" V&V (Piety -8) so it's a piece of cake to burn him (especially since you inquisitors have increased zeal during their earlier attempt).

Regular inquisitors are only good for dealing with normal general (including princes who become normal general). They have a very small chance to burn princes (about 5% all in all) and almost none to burn a king. Trying is still a good idea since it will make their target become an atheist sooner or later and that will help the grand inquisitors later.

Indeed, order to reliably burn kings and princes, grand inquisitors are amazing. They can wipe out an entire bloodline in few years once they get a little valour.

There is also a second anomaly with inquisitor since the difficulty of the mission depends on the target's piety while the valor they get in case of success depends on the command rating ... Quite easy to spot a low piety five star general in a high zeal province to easily increase valour up to 3 (English; Italian and Spanish general are usually the easiest targets) ...

Personnaly I think that using inquisitors to deprive the AI of its best generals cause the whole catholic world to go rebel is a bit too easy (especilly since the AI does not seem able to assassinate more than one or two low valor inquisitors per game)... Fun when you discover it but it takes too much of the challenge out of the game

thank you for the help, hopefullly this will add some flavor to my new campain as the danes:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

I did have one game which I found something interesting. My faction leader died, and the heir took the throne. I presumed that I wouldn't have any heirs, but when I checked, my faction gained two heirs. Apparently while he was still an heir, the heir had gotten married, and had kids and by the time he ascended to the throne, two of his kids had already matured. The game obviously keeps this from you, so you have no idea how many levels your family tree spans. I do like RTW in that you can view your entire family tree and see how everything gets connected.

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True, but still I think that only the royal family has kids. I have never seen nor heard anything to indicate that other generals also have families, and even if they do, it's not particularly relevant anyway.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

I think this is more an issue of wording that was used. I presume that if you target the faction leader of another faction with your princess, she will try to marry into that faction. I used unmarried generals in this case I believe to refer to unmarried members of the royal family. I suppose it would be more accurate to say, "If the faction that you are attempting to marry your princess to has no unmarried heirs..."

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Yes, that was what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Jxrc

There is some kind of a bug for inquisitors.

Each time you fail to burn a general he gets a V&V increasing his piety (starting with "Devout" up "Born Again"). You might tink that a general with get a bit immune after a few unsuccessful attempts but if you try to burn a "born again" general once more he get the "atheist" V&V (Piety -8) so it's a piece of cake to burn him (especially since you inquisitors have increased zeal during their earlier attempt).

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It's more of a random chance. Surviving an inquisition will result in the "born again" line of virtues that offers protection from inquisitors. However, there is also a big chance that the target will develop a "secret heretic" or "secrect atheist" vice. The vices will usually be brought to light (i.e. they become "heretic" or "atheist") if the target survives another inquisition (yep, the victim reveals after the trail that isn't very devout at all :stupido2: ), making him easy pickings for a third or fourth inquisition.

I agree with you that Grand Inquisitors are overpowered, especially if you recruit them in Castille.

I noticed in the post with the chance-to-assassinate scale, you said you had never seen the 95% chance-to-assassinate. I have seen it, just now in fact.
I dropped a V6 assassin on a V0 Priest - 97%. Dropping the same assassin on a V0 Orthodox Bishop gives the elusive 95%.

Hi all, being encouraged to have a look here, I spent some time reading it. Whoa...

A lot, a lot, a lot! Nice assassination chances pattern!

I have a question, though: speaking of the spies and assassins going up in valor killing the enemies' spies and assassins: does this stuff happens automatically or do you actually SEE the enemies' hiddens agents?

Because I tried to put spies and assassins everywhere, to see if I unveil someone, and this never happened, while I was at the same time capturing enemy agents during the end of turn resolution... Haven't checked the valor of my agents, though...

So. Do you happen to see enemy spies and/or assassins on the map?

Hey Caerfanan! Glad you found the info here to be of use. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

So. Do you happen to see enemy spies and/or assassins on the map?

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Nope. You cannot see other factions' assassins & spies, and they cannot see yours. They're effectively invisible unless/until they're caught.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Hey Caerfanan! Glad you found the info here to be of use. ~:)


Nope. You cannot see other factions' assassins & spies, and they cannot see yours. They're effectively invisible unless/until they're caught.

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Yokidoki... So if I am correct: sometimes, if you catch an assassin/spy in a province where you have assassin/spy, one of your agent might gain valor?

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Originally Posted by EightDeer

I noticed in the post with the chance-to-assassinate scale, you said you had never seen the 95% chance-to-assassinate. I have seen it, just now in fact.
I dropped a V6 assassin on a V0 Priest - 97%. Dropping the same assassin on a V0 Orthodox Bishop gives the elusive 95%.

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That's because Orthodox Bishops live in countries where the people is rude, and harsh.

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Uuuh, spent to much time with those camels!!! :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Yokidoki... So if I am correct: sometimes, if you catch an assassin/spy in a province where you have assassin/spy, one of your agent might gain valor?

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One of your spies or assassins will gain valour. If you have aborder fort in that province, that will catch the rival factions' spies and assassins instead, and thus your agents will gain no valour.

IMHO the best way to valour up your agents is to not build border forts, but instead train up your assassins and spies through counterspying. You will notice, as the campaign progresses that certain provinces will catch more rival spies than any other, due to them being around a "hub of activity". You can cycle your agents around moving the low valour ones into these hubs to increase their valour, then move them on again once they're valoured up. Any of your agents that reach valour 5+ are then suitable for some select foreign missions. You can also try the approach of setting up a honey trap for rival agents. Keeping some emmissaries (the AI loves to go after them) in a province to act as bait will draw more rival agents in.

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Originally Posted by Cambyses II

One of your spies or assassins will gain valour. If you have aborder fort in that province, that will catch the rival factions' spies and assassins instead, and thus your agents will gain no valour.

IMHO the best way to valour up your agents is to not build border forts, but instead train up your assassins and spies through counterspying. You will notice, as the campaign progresses that certain provinces will catch more rival spies than any other, due to them being around a "hub of activity". You can cycle your agents around moving the low valour ones into these hubs to increase their valour, then move them on again once they're valoured up. Any of your agents that reach valour 5+ are then suitable for some select foreign missions. You can also try the approach of setting up a honey trap for rival agents. Keeping some emmissaries (the AI loves to go after them) in a province to act as bait will draw more rival agents in.

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That is interesting material... I always build border forts. That's why I haven't seen a spy or assassin valour up.

Thanks a lot Cambyses II!

:shame:

Wow, I see this thread recently got dug up ;)

Maybe it's about time to move it over to the MTW Guides forum.

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

That is interesting material... I always build border forts. That's why I haven't seen a spy or assassin valour up.

Thanks a lot Cambyses II!

:shame:

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Even better, though some might say it makes the game easier, is to get rid of the border forts completly. It makes it easier because your spies and assassins are much less likely to die when they enter enemy territory. Unfortunately in the game it's impossible to tell an assassin to not follow his target if the target leaves your provinces.

Once you start using spies and assassins, I find that the AI loves it so much, that they start spamming assassins of their own.

I haven't had a chance to complete the guide as I started spending time with RTW, and then last month picked up both M2TW and the Total War Eras collection for $69.99 :beam:

I originally got the Eras pack months ago, but my copy (and several other copies at the EB games I was at had an extra RTW gold disc and missing the Alexander expansion. It was one of the few times you could return opened software :)


I'm currently in the end stretch (60 turns remaining) of my first English campaign. So I'm considering starting up a M2TW: Subterfuge Guide.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Wow, I see this thread recently got dug up ;)

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I'm looking at it now thanks to a link to it in "A padawan seeks advice" (more interesting material in there btw).

I was totally taken aback to see how much I had contributed to this thread and forgotten about (mind like a sieve!) :laugh4:

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Unfortunately in the game it's impossible to tell an assassin to not follow his target if the target leaves your provinces.

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Now it is a really annoying part of the game when the following happens (this will be horribly familiar to regular players).

1) Another faction's emissary arrives on your territory (one with a port).
2) He stays put for a few years.
3) You move an assassin into the same province but don't order an attack yet, just to see what he does in response.
4) He stays put for even more years.
5) You pick up your assassin and set him to attack the Emissary
6) That very year, the emissary SUDDENLY decides it's a good time to head to completely the opposite side of the map. "Coincidence", my codlings!
7a) Annoyance #1 - your assassin is still on home turf, in "action pose" but is now permanently one move behind this emissary, wherever he goes.
7b) Annoyance #2 And now the itchy-feet Emissary is conducting a non-stop world tour!
7c) Annoyance #3 Your agent inevitably gets captured before he ever catches the target (exactly the same way you bait enemy assassins to come to your trainees).

Actually, you CAN cancel the mission before your assassin gets onto a ship and arrives in a BF'd foreign port on his first trip. Just pick him up, drop him on his current province and click the tick, in the "cancel mission?" dialogue.


When both the emissary and assassin begin by being located in a landlocked province of yours, the nearest equivalent is the "two-province two-step", whereby the Emissary 'dances' between the same two provinces, never getting caught by your perpetually lagging agent.

A solution that I've found (to both versions of the problem) is to attack using an assassin coming in from a neighbouring province (landlocked target) or 'parachuted in' by sea (target is in a port province of yours).


DO NOT rely on "assassin autopilot". They take crazy routes sometimes and will wander onto enemy soil (BFs!!) if allowed to work out their own route. They go on autopilot if you assign a mission from where begin the turn and they have to travel across provinces to reach the target.

Solution:-
First, get the assassin into the right preliminary geographical position without initiating the mission itself yet.
Second, pick up the assassin from port_1 (or province_next_door), then drop him on port_2 (or the province containing the target), to dictate the final geographical movement.
Third, from his fresh drop position, pick him up again and now drop him on the target. He will go into action pose at that location but the AI 'cheat' now fails to work.

I've downloaded your pdf but not browsed through it just yet. Apologies if I'm repeating any content.


A couple more 95%s for you
Assassin v_6 vs Emissary v_2
Assassin v_6 vs Bishop/Alim v_1
Assassin v_6 vs (own)Spy v_0
Assassin v_6 vs Inquisitor v_0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 97..(?)..(?)..90..(?)..83..76..(?)

I also have a solitary 10% result (target may have had +5 health or some other VnV modifier)
Assasin v_1 vs Faction leader 2* command.



The "hero" agents are easy to distinguish from 'valoured up' ones. A 'unique' looking name like {so-and-so} of {placename} is a big giveaway that they're a historical character (legendary (aka mythical), in the case of Gisbourne). All the other agent names are random combinations of forename/surname and will often be familiar re-occurrences of names you've seen on your generals.


Lastly, I'd like to re-emphasise a point I made in 2005, the business of what I refer to as "valour transference" (Highlander fans will recognise this). Even totally green v_0 agents can get a lucky break and catch a "big fish" who was infiltrating your lands. They can jump up to v_2 or v_3 in one year, as a result. Always chase up the agent capture reports by inspecting your agent(s) in the provinces mentioned in the report(s).

If you have loads of them all in one place, The top agent in the province will now begin hoovering up all subsequent targets (top agent = first bite, as per Cambyses II/Caravel's posts) and stop the lesser agents from valouring up as fast as they might otherwise do.

A v_3 or v_4 assassin I would still keep on friendly soil but I'd take him out of the training grounds and make him the travelling "personal bodyguard" of the king, the heir or a top-notch general who I don't want to lose. In a game where BWT's and BF's have been modded out, you're really going to need them in this kind of role. They also stand a reasonably good chance of catching a high-valour enemy agent gunning for the personage he is protecting and a handful of those will bump him up to the 5 stars needed for missions on foreign soil far faster than catching large numbers of low valour agents (it takes eight kills of v_0 enemies to progress from 4* to 5* but only one or two high-valour agents, by comparison).

The corollorary of this is that if you send your high-star agent on a foreign mission and he gets killed, be on your guard. There could be a demon spy or assassin coming your way.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Once you start using spies and assassins, I find that the AI loves it so much, that they start spamming assassins of their own.

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Yes sir.... On my current mercian camapgin, I started oose two generals each turn after having sent a wave of assassins against one of my enemies' heirs... They killed my 9* general!!! :angry:

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:bump:

Could we have a sticky for this, preferably at the MTW Guides section?
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Stickied. ~:)

I am having problems finding the guide - when I follow the link the site is unavailable - any chance of it being put within the forum itself?

Well done Martok & Mouza ... :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian

Well done Martok & Mouza ... :2thumbsup:

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It's Mithrandir who moved it here from the EH and Martok who made it sticky. :bow:
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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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It's Mithrandir who moved it here from the EH and Martok who made it sticky. :bow:
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But unless I'm greatly mistaken, it was you, my friend, that thought to ask Mithrandir to move it here in the first place. So thanks are still in order. :bow:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

I am having problems finding the guide - when I follow the link the site is unavailable - any chance of it being put within the forum itself?

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Can you get to it in the Main Hall now?

I think sbroadbent's site is no longer available. However, I have the guide on my computer and can upload it to the Org if there is any interest.

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:jumping:
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sbroadbent's Subterfuge Guide v0.2 for M:TW 1

Download link

Thanks to TosaInu and Clan Mizu.