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yesterday i was watching ALEXANDER the great the movie and i wondered myselft:
why the persians rushed to impale themselves into the macedonian pikes?
i mean, why not walk to the pikes (covering the arrow rain or spears etc) and then, cut off the points of the pikes so they could attack...
They never thought of that. The main anti-phalanx tactic in Classical times was to try and clog the phalanx with dead bodies.
Try and chop off a constantly moving pike head with a short-sword and you'll fail 99% of the times. It's also extremely hard to cut something that is not supported against something...the pike would just move away from the impact...
Even in the armies of the renaissance, with Bidenhänder-armed soldiers, had difficulty performing this type of attack. Spanish armies, though, had a type of sword and buckler troop armoured with a cuirass that would roll under the pikes and engage the pikemen within their own packed formation...as Ranika would tell you, Gallic and Galatian armies had a similar troop-type as well.
When speaking of regular tactics against a phalanx army, they should be faced with flexible and mobile troops...either with javelin and sling skirmishers, horse-archers or massed foot archery. Any kind of flanking was a valid tactic too.
like they said:
-when hitting it, 90% of it's energy will be guided away due to vibrations (the holding point is 3m away!)
-when hitting it, teh roudn surface might glance it off
-it's moving, hard to aim
- the pikes were so thick that not every man can make their fingers touch their thumbs
but pikes did splinter, but mainly on impact of armor I thought..
oh, and jebus very subtle...
" Classical times was to try and clog the phalanx with dead bodies."
wow, very hard what you said man, maybe the first soldiers of the line who must face the phalanx were drugged or something to face a sure death dont you think??
the question came to my head when i was watching the "CONQUEST" tv series, the barbarians weapons episode, the protagonist took a spear which used to counter a roman legionary, who used his gladius to cut off the point of the spear in the air. of course the protagonist said: if you dont move, the legionary will cut off your spear, so move all the time. and this cant be made so easy if you have a long pike
didnt know the real pikes were so thick, but, if it was thick and long, it should be heavy as hell, and if a sword could not cut off its point, the vibrations would hurt the carrier hands or make it drop to the floor...
rants and raves:
or, i dont know, there could be more ways to counter a phalanx, like, with ropes, catch the pikes as they were cows if the back of the metal point was not sharp
or even throwing a tree trunk over the first lines of pikes in horizontal position
http://www.clas.canterbury.ac.nz/graphics/sarissa_5.jpg
I'd say they should take advantage of the sluggishness of the phalanx and stop in front and pelt them with javelins. When they are forced to charge, the cavalry can come in and break the lines of the phalanx even more. When they are broken like that, they may have more equal terms.
Maybe stupid for Darius's army at Gaugamela considering it was made up of farmers who had trouble using a sword let alone throwin a javelin. In other cases though this tactic could have worked wonders.
Iphikrates did that minus the cavalry in the Corinthian War. He almost wiped out a Spartan hoplite battalion (600 men) with peltasts alone. Those few who escaped the peltasts were killed by Athenian hoplites I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon
Will come back when I find which battle and sources.
I know my history, but I need to get like this guy! ^^~D
Yep, this is the incredible amount of knowledgeable knowledge that defines EB :beam:
At Pydna it doesnt seem like the Romans had succes cutting pikeheads off. Its not easy to do without using a heavy weapon like the two handed swords used in early Renaissance (and IIRC wasnt used for long) or some kind of polearm to pin down the pike and break it.
CBR
The battle/skirmish was near Korinthos in 390...I believe the proper name of the battle is Lechaion. He basically destroyed an unsupported Spartan hoplite mora with rearmed hoplites, which by that time had gotten considerably lighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krusader
There is also an ocasion where Spartan hoplites surrendered after being hit by Athenian archers for a couple of days.
And infierno, that's all fantasy...there are other more practical ways of defeating a heavy-phalanx army than going Ewok on them. AS you can see, archers and javelineers do just fine, simply by being able to outrun and outrange them.
EDIT: CBR: Double handers were used by Swiss mercenaries since the 14th century and although outlawed in some cantons, they were still exported to other countries who used them well into the 16th century. Two centuries is not a small time to use such a speacialized weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon
Hum, so many knowledgable people here. :rolleyes: Enjoy yourselves a bit:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates1.html
Knowledgeable on YOUR team of course ~;) :book:
scot highlanders, from what i read about them, used to carry round shields and swords in order to have the pikes of english pikemen stuck into their shields in order to cut them easily. I don't know what this is worth in face of recent discoveries and reconstitutions.
Did any kind of troop try to do the same when facing phalanxes ?
Well I was referring more to the fact that two handed swords werent used for long in the Renaissance as pikes became the dominant weapon. The earlier use of such weapons cant have been against pikes as pikes were either not used or only in few numbers.
CBR
Xenophon, Hellenica 4.4.11-17 about Lechaeum: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...out=&loc=4.4.1
CBR
Halberds were used before pikes...the greatswords theoretically also had the job to cut the heads off those. In any time though, they were mostly standart protectors and elite shock troops; They were the biggest, bravest and often the most flamboyant troops in those armies and generally enjoyed double pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR
In India, Portuguese nobles liked to use this sword to hack through decks full of Indian, Malaysian and Turk troops.
Because Oliver Stone knows more about films then about military history?Quote:
Originally Posted by infierno
Take american films (even more serious ones) for what they are: entertainement. Not historical recreation.
Liar liar liar!!! I'm not listening!!!! Lah-lah-lah-lah-lah!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
(goes back to watch Troy again and again)
:clown: ~;)
Yes it could be used against halberds too but it still disappeared in use around mid 16th century and for the Swiss even earlier. My point is that even such weapons that could indeed cut of pike heads was not good enough to stay.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html
CBR
Agreed.~;)
So THAT is where the majority of our Hellenic info comes from. No wonder! ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
really i thought the cinema was for entertainment?
cant believe i was wrong
~D
war is not liek Tekken, or so..people are trying to kill you,a nd you them. you just didn't have the time to go wilde-western and lasso up those pikes... besides, were did you get teh room to sling it?Quote:
Originally Posted by infierno
you yhink the sarissa can't be so thick for it would be too heavy, but you advise troops to carry tree-trunks with them to clog up teh phalanx? :S
altough Jebus wasn't subtle, not even in the lightest sense, he ís right...
with Gaugamela is the example, teh fornt row couldn't "refuse to fight" they were pushed into battle by the other 80.000 men behind them trying to get to teh fight...
I hate to say it, but your picture of ancient-warfare isn't very realistic...
more commonly the Katzenbälger were used, short swords without a sheath but stuck in a cat´s skin (thats why the name)Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR
Renaissance regiments at times were stacked up to 20 rows deep - no room to swing a 2H-sword there
Im not sure whether the macidonians did this but i know that some medieval british halbierds had a metal bar running down the stave to prevent the end being cut off.
In the case of a pike, they can still act as a serious impediment even without a spearpoint, (scareing horses and the like).
You don't need to swing a two-hander...they have a long ricasso that allows you to use it as a small spear of sorts, but obviously they were more usefull when used in front of their own line and then retiring again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teutobod II
BTW, the bar that prevented the halberd from being cut, does not go all the way down, even if it did, metal brakes as well...or if it doesn't, the wood behind it does by the sheer power of the blow, in which case you get a very damaged and unwieldy weapon.
Gah, Aymar. That article is half bullshit. Don't post stuff like that. :furious3: ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aymar de Bois Mauri
I'd like to note that walking or running up to a line of pointy sticks and trying tp break one will probably get you stabbed by another 5. Also, if you cut the head of a pike off, they still have a 20 foot sharp pole to jab you with.
According to most military historians, the tactic of actually cutting pike heads off DID NOT WORK.
That's our opinion too.~:)
Not that it matters or anything...
well, i gues trying to stop itself is pretty much impossible..since there's a large number of men behind you trying to get to the fight..you'll get impaled on teh pikes merely by the push of your own men..Quote:
Originally Posted by Urnamma
its quite amazing what degrees of courage such a thing would take , i mean what happens if you messed up and they just stabbed you repeatedly on the ground? scary stuff, but imagine succeeding at it and wrecking the enemies formation, you would have felt like a complete badass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
i think i'd rather say:"after you"..and wait for teh formation to crack ~;)
i think walking up to those pikes alone is brave..let alone knock them up 'n roll under.