Katrina at Keesler AFB... and my Dad's response!!!

Here's a good read about Keesler AFB's response to the hurican..
Lt Col Randy Coats, 333d Training Squadron/CC

Command. There's no better job in the world. After seven years in jobs with "command authority" and two squadron commands, I figured I had a good idea what command was all about. I was wrong. What changed my mind? Four words--"Shelter Commander" and "Hurricane Katrina."

From 28 Aug - 2 Sep, I lived with 730 of my "closest friends" in 50-year old Bryan Hall at Keesler AFB, MS. It was my third stint as a shelter commander, but it was unlike anything I had experienced before. As life slowly returns to normal on the Gulf Coast and I reflect on the experience, I've come to appreciate the unpredictability of command and how much an event like Katrina can change people and communities.

First, you have to understand some basics. My shelter is a unique animal on Keesler. Most shelters here are dedicated primarily to one unit. Mine is not. I have all the active duty and family members from a wide variety of units--two training squadrons, CE (Civil Engineer) and Security Forces (and prisoners), 100+ Marines, communications students (NCOs and roughly 60 Lt's), 150 NCO Academy students and their faculty, and 50 international officers and their families. The building is an old nuclear fallout shelter, with no windows and no shower facilities. With that setting in mind, I offer the following memories and thoughts on Hurricane Katrina.

25 Aug (Thu): One of my sharpest young Msgt points out Katrina "may grow into something over the weekend" and suggests we update our shelter/evacuation data sheets. I admire his enthusiasm, tell him "that's not a bad idea", then promptly forget to do anything because Katrina's not headed our way at all and I've got other things to do besides worry about a piddly Category 1 storm.

27 Aug (Sat): Two CAT (Crisis Action Team) meetings. Katrina has strengthened and is headed our way, due to arrive Monday afternoon. Tentatively plan to open shelters Monday morning. I remember the Msgt's words and begin repeating every officer's golden rule--"Never ignore a SNCO (Senior Non-Commissioned Officer)...Never ignore a SNCO."

28 Aug (Sun): Turn on CNN before heading to 0800 CAT. Radar picture shows Katrina is Category 5, taking up the whole Gulf of Mexico and headed straight for us, due to arrive before dawn Monday. "Never ignore a SNCO...Never ignore a SNCO."

- 1000 hrs: Initiate full recall and order all personnel to evacuate or shelter NLT (not later than) 2100. Many people out of town for the weekend. Accountability is a nightmare.

- 1700 hrs: Open the shelter. People/families begin arriving. Have to stop two refrigerators, one 21" TV set, and three mattresses at the door. Students (of all ranks) drafted to help carry bags into the shelter. People told to bring food and water for three days. Most bring food for two days; smokers bring cigarettes for twenty days. Have to break the news--no smoking inside the shelter and once you're checked in you can't go outside (Hotel California rules).

- 2200 hrs: Doors locked and boarded up from the outside by CE (one door in an alcove left uncovered).

29 Aug (Mon):

- 0500: Winds howling; can hear them best through vents in bathrooms at the end of the hallway (It didn't sound like this during Hurricane Ivan)

- 0800: Shelterees (hereafter referred to as "the Natives") start moving around 0800. Smokers looking for nicotine fix, but remain calm.

- 1000: Local news reports indicate rising waters, violent winds. Plywood ripped from external doorways (I start getting uneasy; plywood has never moved in previous storms, much less flown away).

- 1200: News reports 20+ feet of water in local mall. Natives getting anxious. Smokers getting jittery.

Afternoon:

- Power goes out; generators kick in. Not good. CE told us power can only go out if high-tension cables that survived 200-mph winds during Hurricane Camille go down. A/C stops working; ventilation fans stop working. No windows, no open doors, 731 nervous people...in Mississippi...in August. Ask for generator fuel status and burn rate. Have enough fuel for two days.

- Natives who smoke starting to visibly shake; many look physically ill.

- Cable TV goes out. Natives get creative with antennas. Spotted the bottom half of an NCO sticking out from ceiling tiles. Apparently reception is better if you connect a stripped copper comm cable from the TV to pipes in the ceiling. I appoint a safety observer and hope for the best.

- CE reports primary generator has flames coming out of it, so shut it off. Lost internet connectivity. Down to one generator; power only in hallways and a few rooms.

- Water stops running. Toilets overflowing. With medical advice, I brief the Natives on how to use plastic bags for toilet facilities (someone used this method within 10 minutes). Disposal of plastic bags in a sealed building is a concern. Adventurous major goes into the basement and finds 1961-vintage Civil Defense Survival Sanitation Kits. Basically, a 3-foot tall cardboard porta-potty with a hole cut in the top. This does not look fun. However, 44-year old toilet paper (it was dated) is surprisingly soft.

- One hour later: Water comes back thanks to CE heroes going out in the storm to repair pumping station. I hug the first CE troop I can find. Sanitation Kits thankfully not used, but kept on standby.

- CE troops coming off shift report half of flight-line underwater; BX and Commissary 6 feet deep and rising; trees down all over base; CE building collapsed. Natives begin to get the picture--this is worse than Hurricanes Ivan or Dennis.

Evening:

- 1800: Winds still dangerous so cannot open doors. It's hot...it's humid...Natives are getting cranky. Smokers showing signs of extreme duress. One is carrying two unlit cigarettes around. I suggest he tear one open and put it behind his lip for a nicotine fix. He informs me he's already eaten an entire pack and it didn't help. Can't think of anything to say in response, so I pat him on the back and wish him luck.

- Babies and young kids getting grumpy; too hot to nap.

- Barely-visible news reports (on very fuzzy TV picture) report massive devastation in the area. Dead silence in hallway as Natives crowd around the lone TV with a discernible picture. Tension rising.

- 2000: Too hot to breathe. 731 nervous people generate a lot of sweat and a variety of smells. Command Post says stay locked down, don't open doors. Natives make strange noises when I walk by. Not sure the "Shelter Commander" badge is a good thing to be wearing right now. First Sergeant reports Natives consider me the embodiment of evil.

- Cops go on shift. The best NCO in the AF is assigned to patrol base housing; he offers to try to check on my cat during his shift (we left her in the hallway of my house).

- 2100: Even hotter. Poked my head outside--it's ugly but winds have died down. Command Post says stay buttoned up. Natives mumbling in small groups about how to eliminate a commander. Survival instincts tell me to get some air in here. Posted Marines at every exit and opened all the doors. I'm a hero; Natives love me. Haven't heard "thank you" this much since I put my shirt back on at the squadron pool party.

- 2200: Smokers running out of cigarettes to eat. Open a side door and rope off a 10' x 10' smoking area. No more than five people at a time; no more than five minutes. Sucking cigarettes look like blow-torches in reverse. Everyone loves me.

- Nobody sleeps much. Tough to sleep in pools of sweat.

30 August (Tuesday):

0145: One of my NCOs wakes me up because "Cops want to talk to you, Sir". SFS NCO is direct. "The good news is your cat is fine." Next question obvious. As he hands back my house key he adds, "The bad news is I didn't need this to get into your house." Doesn't quite register..."How'd you get in?" He looked me straight in the eye and said, "I walked through your back wall." That can't be good at all. Looks like a total loss. My wife was on a cot in the hallway. I woke her up to give her the news. Her response? "I guess it'll be easy to pack when we move next year." (She's getting anything she wants for Christmas, forever). Spend the rest of the night thinking of how to stay focused and project a positive attitude given that all my worldly possessions will probably fit in a gym bag. (note: we were eventually able to save most things above 4 feet)

- 0700: Bad news spreads like wildfire. Entire shelter knows about my house. Lots of supportive comments as I wander the halls but I see the struggle behind the words--they're sorry for my loss but worry about their own. Their concern for my family despite fears for their own touches me deeply. First time in 19 years I've really had to fight back tears, but I've got to do the commander thing and project a positive attitude. As I walk the hallways I truly feel "the burden of command." My family is safe; I have to push my losses aside for now. These 730 people have no access to information other than what I tell them. I am their link to the outside world. I see them watching me, watching how I react and looking for cues as they try to figure out how they should feel--is the commander scared? Depressed? Worried? Confident? I realize that their mood over the next few days will be a direct reflection of what they perceive as my mood. I've been tested in command before, but never like this.

- 0800: Drive to CAT meeting across base. Devastation is shocking. Trees down everywhere. Cars trashed everywhere. Windows out. Walls out. Buildings collapsed. Roofs ripped apart.

- 0930: Mass briefing to the Natives. Most uncomfortable briefing I've ever given. Reports indicate widespread devastation. Death toll probably in the hundreds. Power out for at least three weeks. Must begin water conservation. Minimum three months to resume base mission. Will not leave shelter for at least three days. 730 stunned and scared faces focused on me. All are easy to read. (1) realization of how bad it is, (2) fear of what it did to their homes. Worst possible situation for a commander--troops need reassurance I can't give. Struggle to keep my voice steady. Not sure how well I did.

Afternoon:

- Natives' supplies running out. Most critical shortfalls: food, diapers, baby food, and feminine hygiene products. Issue MREs for adults. Assign "Baby POC" to track baby supplies. Develop new metric for morning/evening briefings--diaper burn rate. 17 infants in shelter x 5 diapers/day & 4 jars of baby food/day. Have one day supply of diapers, two days of baby food, but at least three more days in the shelter. Submit urgent supply request to Command Post. Luckily, Sanitation Kits include 44-year old feminine products.

- Still no cable TV and no internet. Information is life. I average (I counted) no more than 10 steps before someone stops me to ask what's going on outside.

- Lieutenant students offer to take over operation of the Children's Recreation Room. One has been to Clown College; several brought coloring books. First Sergeant (aka "First Shirt" asks me later (a) "How come the officers have coloring books?" And ( "How come some of the pictures were colored in before the children started using them?" Honor of the officer corps is at stake; I quickly assign the Shirt to a meaningless task to distract her. Hope it worked. Best not to ask. (Note: to be perfectly honest, that actually happened during Hurricane Dennis in July, but it's 100% true and was too good a story not to include here)

- Pregnant Native goes into premature labor. Ambulance evacuates her to the hospital.

Another uncomfortable night. All Natives (and myself) report profuse sweating in lieu of sleep. Set up special room with lots of fans for children to sleep in. Authorized Chaplain to take a small raiding party to Chapel next door to get rocking chairs for parents with small children.

31 August (Wed):

- 731 people, 36+ hours with no a/c and no showers. Natives stink. Shelter stinks. Natives convinced everyone stinks but themselves. Shirt reports Natives blame it all on me. Wife asks if I can boost SGLI (military life insurance) from here. Tasked my most creative NCO to come up with some way to hose people off. Result: water hose connected to sink in bathroom supply closet, with sandbag walls leading to drain in center of bathroom. No hot water, but showers are a success. Still rationing water--3 minute shower every other day. Nonetheless, Natives can wash away the stink for at least 10 minutes till they start sweating again. I'm a hero.

- Still hot. Two cases of dehydration evacuated to hospital. I'm dehydrated, nauseous, and weak despite drinking constantly. Can't believe I let this happen. Check with medics, but saline solution is in short supply and if I'm still walking I don't need it bad enough. They give me some good drugs to control symptoms. Eight hours, 240 ounces of water (I had to keep track), and 9,000 bathroom breaks later I feel much better.

- Lots of debris around the building. Still dangerous for people to go outside, but Natives are getting stir-crazy. Assigned a team to clear and rope off an area near the building. Post guards to ensure nobody wanders off, then allow small groups outside for fresh air for short periods of time. They love me again.

- Wing Commander reads off list of inbound aid at CAT meeting. Not the same as hearing it on TV. I never imagined that it would mean so much to know that so many people are focused on helping you.

- Baby supplies critical. Wing/CC orders a raid on what's left of Commissary and BX. Deliveries to shelters save the day.

- Another bad briefing to the Natives. Only one way to explain why they can't leave the shelter--tell them the truth as I know it. Looting rampant off-base. Looters in base housing. AF member car-jacked right outside the gate. No gas in local area; $5/gallon three hours away. Chaos in New Orleans is moving our way. Extra Security Forces with .50 cals on HMMWVs en route to help secure the base.

- Natives frantic about their homes. They fear anything that survived the storm won't survive the looters. Try to focus them on aid headed our way. Emotions running high. One woman goes into shock; evacuated to hospital.

Another sweaty, sleepless night. Natives apparently locate world's largest stock of extension cords. Conservative estimates indicate we're running 500 fans off 5 power outlets and 2,000 extension cords. Confiscated the most impressive daisy chains as a safety hazard. Briefed Shelter Management Team to increase fire checks of the building.

01 Sep (Thu):

- Cannot release people to return to homes overnight due to security concerns. However, must let Natives assess their homes or risk bodily harm trying to keep them here. Strict guidelines for home assessments--provide written route of travel; must have a wingman; no dependents can go; max of one hour to save what you can and return to shelter; must be decontaminated before reentering shelter because many houses (mine included) have sludge/sewage inches deep. Lieutenants do great job controlling departure and decon lines.

- Natives return to shelter. Many are homeless. Commander School never taught me how to respond to "I have nothing left," or how to comfort women and men crying uncontrollably in my arms. Some cried for what they lost, some for what they saw. News reports didn't prepare them for seeing not just their home but their entire neighborhood destroyed, or for the cops telling them the bad smell they noticed was probably neighbors who tried to ride out the storm and were buried in the rubble. My only consolation is that I know how they feel. The stink in the house made me gag; the mud was gooey, sticky, and got on everything. My wife spent years building a beautiful collection of Amish figurines. Seeing the trail of broken figures across two yards (I never found the curio cabinet) was painful to endure. Crabs running across my feet in the bedroom (which scared the bee-geezus out of me) was a comical twist to a non-comical situation.

- In an attempt to improve morale, the chow hall (excuse me, "Dining Facility") next to the shelter opens for one hot meal of whatever was available. Natives happily wait in line 2+ hours for rice with spaghetti sauce and a piece of bread. After the week we've had, it's like Grandma's Thanksgiving dinner.

- Third straight day of gorgeous weather. Security still a big concern. My DO (Deputy for Operations) reports her neighbors shot a looter (it may not be politically correct, but I applaud their initiative). Natives don't care, they just want out. Shelter Commanders compare notes at CAT-we're all seriously concerned about tempers rising in the shelters. Believe the Natives are just about at the breaking point.

- Still no a/c. Lots of sweat and little sleep.

02 Sep (Fri):

- Security situation better. Natives' are about worn out. Wing/CC authorizes release from shelters. Six days and five nights we will never forget, and the recovery efforts have only just begun.

To say that Hurricane Katrina has been a "life event" would be an understatement. During my time running the Bryan Hall shelter I saw the best and the worst of people first-hand. Some sat in their little piece of floor space and watched others work to make the situation better. Most looked for every opportunity to help others and to make our little slice of hell a little more comfortable. I was amazed at how easy it was to read their faces. I could see clearly as fear changed to shock, disbelief, then anger. I watched in amazement as the anger was replaced with a calm sense of resolve and focus to simply move forward and do what needed to be done. From the little boy I found wandering the halls at midnight (obviously looking for a bathroom) to the lieutenants who stepped up, took charge when I asked, and showed all of us what "officership" is all about, every person in that shelter taught me their own unique and valuable lesson about command.


The CE troops and the Cops in my shelter taught me the meaning of dedication. I watched them tramp in and out on shift work throughout the storm and its aftermath. They were wet, muddy, sweaty, and tired. But every time they came through those doors they took time to find someone whose house they checked on and they always stopped by to give me an update on what they saw. To quote a favorite TV show of mine, "They were...magnificent." My Wing/CC described it perfectly a few days after the storm. Some puffed-up colonel called him up in the CAT and said "General so-and-so is coming down there. I want to know who the most important person on that base is and I want their name right now." The boss' response was classic. "Well, colonel, the most important person on this base is a Staff Sergeant with a chainsaw and if you'll give me ten minutes I'll get that name for you." CE and Cops. If you're looking for the heroes of Keesler, I'll be happy to escort you to their buildings.

As for the rest of the folks in the shelter, they were just as amazing in a different way. For all but the first 16 hours of our 6-day adventure they lived in a hot, poorly-ventilated building with virtually no amenities but running water. Most slept on tile floors. All slept in puddles of their own sweat. All spent 5 days not knowing whether or not they had a home to go home to. Yet through all of it, they kept a sense of humor and worked together to make the best of a bad situation. Even in the darkest moments I never walked down the hall without hearing a constant stream of "Morning, Colonel!" "How's it going, Sir?" Or "Hey, Sir! When's the beer truck getting here?" I was only chewed out once by a shelteree. I would argue that in a "typical" group of 731 people, I would've been chewed out several times a day at least.

In my 19 years of service I have never seen a better demonstration of the military "family", or a better demonstration of true professionalism. I have to add, though, that what I've seen in the 12 days since has been just as impressive. The base and its leadership have been amazing. In addition to bringing our mission back on-line in less than 3 weeks, we've provided critical support to local communities. At last count, we'd sent nearly 50 missions out the gates to deliver food, water, and medical support. I was the CAT Director when a local cop showed up and said the shelter down the street had an outbreak of diarrhea and vomiting. The boss had medical teams, food, and water on site within 30 minutes. The list goes on and on.

The same is true for my own unit. With more than one-third of my squadron homeless, my troops (military and civilian) have done things that will bring a tear to anyone's eye. Not one single person in my unit has cleaned out a storm-damaged home alone. We've had teams out every day helping squadron members and retirees (and sometimes people we didn't even know) cut trees and clean out flooded homes. They have made me proud to be part of their team and proud to be part of the US military. They have taught me when it comes right down to it they don't need leadership. They are, each and every one of them, leaders in their own right. Leaders with the willingness, the desire, and the compassion to do the right thing without being told. In truth, they don't need a commander, they only need a cheerleader who will give them the support and the freedom they need to do what needs to be done. When I look back in years to come and ponder what Hurricane Katrina taught me about command that may just be the most important lesson of all.



And here's my Dad's response!!! Too good.~D
This just shows the difference in the quality of people in the US. The residents of Keesler have been and will continue to be contributing individuals to our great country, as evidenced by this writeup. They volunteered to protect our country by joining the military and are supported by their great family members. Look at what kind of people occupied New Orleans. Mostly the "entitled" people that have sucked New Orleans of money, housing and support. Any one can make a better life for themselves if the choose to. There are examples all over the place. The people in N.O. have decided to suck off the rest of the world. Hide and watch, they will probably clamor for money the same as the victims of The World Trade Center. They have already said that the reason they haven't been helped sooner is because of racial policies. I don't believe that the hurrican can tell the difference if people are green, blue or purple. But race is brought up when certain people don't get their way. I am getting tired of hearing about New Orleans and what they have suffered. They were not the only place that was hit. Buloxi and Gulfport were hit harder, and nealry devastated, but still we mostly hear about N.O. Anyway, I will turn off the rant and I appreciate this bit of refreshing news about good hard working Americans doing what is right, and expected, of decent people.
Terry

I like how in the hours after the storm we were hearing of "hundreds" of bodies at the stadium and gang rapes and snipers on rooftops, even from the idiot governor on Oprah, then when the refrigerated trucks show up they they find, what, 4 bodies at the stadium, all of them old people who may have died of stress related natural causes and outside they find a guy dead from "suspicous circumnstances"

heres a little info for u all to ponder about new orleans:

percentage of households with only one parent:70+
percentage of police who abandoned posts: 15+
percentage of citizens who recieve some form of welfare (stamps, medicaid): 70+


And lets not forget the corrupt police force, the neighborhoods so bad that BLACK OU football players got scared when the player van had a blowout there last year, and all the civil engineering geniuses who decided to put the generators and servers in the fkin basement instead of the roofs in a city below sea level

I also think this is funny:http://news.bostonherald.com/localRe...format=&page=1

OT How on earth could people got to the shelter in time for a nuclear strike and survived long enough that it wasn't radioactive outside?

Seems to be that (at least this class of shelter) would be little more then a security blanket then a real defence against the bomb.

It was probably built around the time little kids were being taught that, in case of a bomb raid, "duck and cover!"....I don't think the mainstream understood the repurcissions of fallout quite like they should. I'd rather off myself with a shot to the heart than live through that crap.

Good story. I actually read most of it... which I don't normally do for something that long at the Org.

I also Like the article on the idiot evacuees. Worthless. But no surprise.

Fascinating, absolutely fascinating.

Thanks for one of the most interesting posts I've ever read here DD.

~:cheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

OT How on earth could people got to the shelter in time for a nuclear strike and survived long enough that it wasn't radioactive outside?

Seems to be that (at least this class of shelter) would be little more then a security blanket then a real defence against the bomb.

---

The story does mention that it was an “old nuclear fallout shelter”. I gotta hope it was better stocked in its day.~:eek:


Anyhow, good read. Thanks DD.:bow:

cheers.

I like your dad.

Keesler AFB holds a special place in my heart, its where I went to tech school in 95 then 7 level school in 03. I had some great times there and unfortunately many of those places that my great times occured are now completely destroyed. The area will be built back up to its original glory and I'm sure it will be done a hell of a lot quicker and without tons of curroption that New Orleans will have durings it rebuild.

Yup, my Dad rules!!! Apple don't fall too far off the tree.~D

Didn't have time to finish it last night.

Good read, and shows how stressful events can be. Also how a little bit of outside communication can really remove some of the stress.

I think it is totally unfair of your Dad to compare an air force shelter and its well-organised inhabitants to the vulnerable civilians literally left to their own devices in New Orleans. And it is rather disgusting to blame them indiscriminately for being caught in the thick of it. I would not recommend anyone with that inconsiderate attitude for promotion, that is for sure.
:no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdrianII

I think it is totally unfair of your Dad to compare an air force shelter and its well-organised inhabitants to the vulnerable civilians literally left to their own devices in New Orleans. And it is rather disgusting to blame them indiscriminately for being caught in the thick of it. I would not recommend anyone with that inconsiderate attitude for promotion, that is for sure.
:no:

---

Well thats the difference from responsible members of society and bleeding hearts and folks that take no personnal responsibility for themselves and only look for the teet of the government to suck on. If you live in a area like a coast where hurricanes hit, you make plans besides, "Well, the govoment aldways beed takin cared of me and mah peeps, I jus gonna keeps it real and let em takes cared of me dis time 2, word". I use to have some pity for these ignorant morons down there but i don't anymore seeing how the other areas on the coast were hit and the way the other people have gotten their shit straight. Looks like another crutch for these fools to use. It use to be whitey, now its the weather. Gets old after a while.

Dev out of those people in the shelter... weren't they all sitting in a government made shelter? Hence weren't they suckling on the teet of the government? Didn't the government help rebuild their homes? Did the people have any plans for shelter, did they even bring enough supplies for 3 days?

Didn't they end up raiding government supplies so they could look after themselves?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Dev out of those people in the shelter... weren't they all sitting in a government made shelter? Hence weren't they suckling on the teet of the government? Didn't the government help rebuild their homes? Did the people have any plans for shelter, did they even bring enough supplies for 3 days?

Didn't they end up raiding government supplies so they could look after themselves?

---

Nope, these are military families that contribute to our society unlike most that were involved in the New Orleans debacle. When you provide a service to the government and society then you should be taken care of. When you are just leaching off the system, making excuses for laziness and a lack of preperation, I say best of luck to you.

So let me get this straight, if I'm paid by the govt to work for it, then I get a "real" shelter for myself and kids, and even some staffing of it to try to maintain the place through the crisis.

While on the other hand, if I'm a private citizen, I'm just hosed? Not only will there be no shelter plan (here in Houston anyway) but there will be no way for me to get out even though I've prepared. And of course, I'm now informed that the Federal govt. isn't responsible for getting me help for a very, very long time. Seems like a certain "conservative" has got the equation bass ackward: govt. serving itself vs. serving the citizens. While your dad was doing the best with the resources he had and I've got no quarrel with him, it's not exactly the same for those who had no such refuge.

The problem in New Orleans was there was nobody to establish authority within a reasonable period. That's why it descended into chaos.

(And before someone starts, don't try to lecture me on bases, I lived on a few growing up, and worked construction on one to put myself through college.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Nope, these are military families that contribute to our society unlike most that were involved in the New Orleans debacle. When you provide a service to the government and society then you should be taken care of. When you are just leaching off the system, making excuses for laziness and a lack of preperation, I say best of luck to you.

---

So the military is superior to the civilians?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

So the military is superior to the civilians?

---

It gets better. The same tone as DD is advancing ("provide a service to the government and society then you should be taken care of") is counter to keeping mimumum wage so low. Even though folks will be working their tails off for a pittance, they apparently don't deserve to be taken care of...or of making enough to take care of themselves. Talk about putting folks in a bind. :dizzy2:

DD is effectively using the "some people are just inherently better than others" argument. It has been a common theme. Doesn't match what I was taught in Sunday school.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

It gets better. The same tone as DD is advancing ("provide a service to the government and society then you should be taken care of") is counter to keeping mimumum wage so low. Even though folks will be working their tails off for a pittance, they apparently don't deserve to be taken care of...or of making enough to take care of themselves. Talk about putting folks in a bind. :dizzy2:

DD is effectively using the "some people are just inherently better than others" argument. It has been a common theme. Doesn't match what I was taught in Sunday school.

---

Looks like Poverty pimp Jesse has entered the discussion. Well Jesse, since the people of New Orleans have known that this was going to happen for decases and they continuously elected the biggest poverty pimp party, the democrats, into office for over a hundred years and they've allowed their politicians, cops, and city leaders stay curropt and haven't done shit about it, the roosters came home to roost. At this point, after seeing all the whining, the lies about the dome for sympothy, and other BS that came out of this, I've gotten to the point that I could give two rat's asses about the morons that stayed down there with no plans other than look for a government titty to latch onto. I know one thing, Houston and other cities are going to regret letting these leaches clamp on to their city, its there problem now because like New Orleans, they aren't going to leave and they are going to expect and demand to be taken care of for generations because that's just how these people are.
Again, you can take a immagrant from India and in one generation all his kids will have college degrees and he'll be successful. Then you take an American who's family has been in the country for generations but the whole time the liberal politicians have told them that they can't do shit without them and that all of their problems are the fault of others, they continue to pop out more and more parasites on the taxes of paople like myself and those families on that Air Force base because we took responsibility for ourselves and provided a livelyhood to our family. Its bullshit. If I want to give to charity thats one thing. I don't want the government taking from me and giving it to somebody that will never amount to shit and neither will his kids. Its gone from being the man holding them down and now its going to be the weather. Now what's more shamefull? But we already know what your response will be, right Jesse?~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

So the military is superior to the civilians?

---

If those civilians aren't worth a damn, yes.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,"

And one of the reasons listed for declaring independance:

"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power."

So you are saying that those are invalid clauses in the declaration of independance?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

If those civilians aren't worth a damn, yes.

---

alright thats over the top the whole reason we a milatary is to protect the civillans

What a rant. :no:

So if it is ok for you or anyone else to decide not to take the money the govt provides to you and spend it on other programs. Now how about those who have the same opinion of the military, or the post office, or the IRS, or FEMA, or the Dept. of Homeland security, etc.?

It is extremely hypocritical to be living off taxpayer money while slamming others receiving govt. assistance. Doesn't matter whether or not you earn it. You are still part of the "burden" on the taxpayer. While I'm happy to pay my share for defense, highways, etc. I can't see any moral high ground for your argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

It is extremely hypocritical to be living off taxpayer money while slamming others receiving govt. assistance. Doesn't matter whether or not you earn it. You are still part of the "burden" on the taxpayer. While I'm happy to pay my share for defense, highways, etc. I can't see any moral high ground for your argument.

---

I provided a service to our country and still do in the DOD, what do these people provide. This is one of the main reasons i got out. I got tired of getting sent places and having the "opportunity" to die for unworthy and unthankful persons like yourself and these bums sucking on the government. I did my time, when are these people going to do their? Never. So why do they "deserve" the benefits I got when they've done nothing but, as Goofball said once, "got shot out of a vagina"?
Yes we are all created equal, but it stops there. You work for the rewards of life, not wait for someone to hand it to you. Everyone can succeed if you work for it. Unfortunately people such as yourself continue to hold your fellow man down by telling them that they'll never amount to shit unless you or some other lib comes to save them like Jesus. If there is eve a hypocrite in this thread its you my little bleeding heart Jesse. Its you...

Keep the insults coming. Just shows how little you know about me. I've always been a proponent of working for what you get, and living wages are a part of that. I don't believe in having a self-reinforcing welfare state. However, it does take some incentive and means to get people off of the dole.

What a lousy attitude you had. Glad you got out. If you didn't want to earn your keep, we didn't really need you anyway. ~:cheers:

When you highlight the smilies they look like chinamen~:cheers: but seriously DD I think you are to black and white on this. Whats next a Navy Seal is better than a mechanic in the airforce just becuase his job is percived as better?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strike for the south

Whats next a Navy Seal is better than a mechanic in the airforce just becuase his job is percived as better?

---

So a women that is a baby factory from all different fathers should have the same benifits as a military member? Your comparrison does not hold up to the smell test sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

What a lousy attitude you had. Glad you got out. If you didn't want to earn your keep, we didn't really need you anyway. ~:cheers:

---

I'm proud that I did 10 years of honorable service, which I'm sure is 10 more than you ever did. Just remember when the shit hits the fan, its not some bum off the street that will be protecting you from the enemy or a natural disaster, he'll probably be too busy stealing your TV or raping your wife, it will be some ignorant ass person like me that you could never appreciate regardless. But keep on preaching Jesse, as long as it makes your little bleeding heart pump with pride about how much good you telling people that they'll never be anything. ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strike for the south

When you highlight the smilies they look like chinamen~:cheers:

---

Except I've never know too many beer drinking chinamen.~D

Come to Aus and you will meet plenty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Doesn't match what I was taught in Sunday school.

---

That is what struck me too. It doesn't match what I hear from people I know in the Salvation Army either. I guess it goes to show there are Christians and then there are Christians. It also supports my view that conscript armies are inherently superior to purely professional armies. Conscripts are citizens who wear uniform for a restricted period and purpose. Professional soldiers have a tendency to get their identity and self-respect solely from the organisation that tells them what to do from dusk till dawn, year after year, for all of their adult lives. That gives people a totally skewed perspective on life and can easilt cause them to lose touch with the rest of society.

While Dave's comments are a little incendeary towards poor people, I think the point he's trying to make about people playing the blame game is a valid one. These folks were warned to leave, and despite repeated showing that the city police force and government was woefully incompetant, they chose to stay and be "protected." Things were blown out of proportion, people shot off at the mouths and everyone started pointing fingers. It was the duty of the mayor or the governor to evacate that city BY FORCE if necessary...people should not have been given a choice to stay, because people are stupid and a lot of them had poor intentions. Martial law should have been declared and everyone cleared out, that way you make sure to get the people "too poor to leave" or "too old to move" FEMA cannot issue an evacuation ORDER......

I think the best picture to sum it all up is the ariel shot of a school bus corral where 100s of buses and underwater....just parked there....not having been used to evacuate people. If the people of New Orleans had just made an effort...just an effort, the whole thing wouldn't have been so sour.

kudos to the people who did help their neighbors. I was reading some things from national guardsmen who said the hecklers were typically only a few thugs/alpha males trying to instigate and the mobs of evacuess were basically telling the thugs to "F*** off these are the good guys"

Now, about the levy...it wasnt just the locals fault, the levy was a federal operation that was being beat around the bush. However, the mayor and governor should have been up the feds butts like wildfire to get the money, yet for decades the project stagnates....

Go easy on the poor people, Dave. Especially the kids. It sukcs being born to poor, worthless parents and having your character subconsciously shaped before your old enough to walk. Also, not all poor people are poor because they are crackheads, drunks or drugdealers...although this was new orleans so I'll degress on that one heh

Whoa Devestating Dave. So if someone isn't worthy in your eyes they can just rot and die for all you care? Considerate. Sure, you may consider some people as better than others, but that isn't worth a damn if those better people don't use their skills to help others. Forming little elite cliques of 'better' people won't help anyone, it's simply ignoring problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm proud that I did 10 years of honorable service, which I'm sure is 10 more than you ever did. Just remember when the shit hits the fan, its not some bum off the street that will be protecting you from the enemy or a natural disaster, he'll probably be too busy stealing your TV or raping your wife, it will be some ignorant ass person like me that you could never appreciate regardless. But keep on preaching Jesse, as long as it makes your little bleeding heart pump with pride about how much good you telling people that they'll never be anything. ~D

---

My wife and I will handle our own security. We don't want or need cro-magnon/Abu Ghraib man around.

You should seek professional help.

Btw An Evacuee Who Came To Oklahoma Won The 25k Powerball Lottery Today......his Ticket Was Bought With???? Guess???? Guess???





His Fooooking Fema Debit Card

Well I guess he can pay back the Fema card and go look after himself and a few others.

BTW Glad to see you back Major Dump! :bow:

Spank you very much Pap, i got a little sidetracked with my career but now I can become a net nerd again because I quit! I quit! I'm no longer a corporate whore wooohoooo!!!!

Well check the family photos... I've got a youngster. ~D

Now I'm trying to figure out how to get sleep. ~:eek:

Well this is very interesting .
A highly organised and disciplined group of people failed to get organised in time , failed to bring what they needed , failed to ensure an adequate power supply and had to resort to looting the base PX .
And they only had to make the tremendously long journey from their workplace , which is also their residence , to the shelter .

This just shows the difference in the quality of people in the US.
Hardly an outstanding example is it ?~:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Well this is very interesting.

---

Mr President, is that you? I thought Solypsist had banned you on account of right-wing extremism. You prolly just been to pub three days in a row, right?
:charge:

3 days ???? Make that 5 days of drinking some fine Welsh Ale , Cornish Ale and Somerset Scrumpy ~:cheers:
And now today back to the Blackstuff~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

3 days ???? Make that 5 days of drinking some fine Welsh Ale , Cornish Ale and Somerset Scrumpy ~:cheers:
And now today back to the Blackstuff~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

---

My scorecard for the past five days: half a glass of wine, a whiff of Tullamore when someone else's bottle crashed in the supermarket, plus the sight of other peoples' beers on a terrace.
Guess it comes with the territory when you're a Dad. :brood:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Well this is very interesting .
A highly organised and disciplined group of people failed to get organised in time , failed to bring what they needed , failed to ensure an adequate power supply and had to resort to looting the base PX .
And they only had to make the tremendously long journey from their workplace , which is also their residence , to the shelter .

This just shows the difference in the quality of people in the US.
Hardly an outstanding example is it ?~:confused:

---

And I would looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove to see how a the Canadian "military" would handle a disaster of this magnitude. eh.

Water doesn't really move that quick when it is a Glacier. ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

And I would looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove to see how a the Canadian "military" would handle a disaster of this magnitude. eh.

---

Dave you should of said the Irish 'military." Tribesman would just poke fun at the Canadians if they were ever in the same situation..........:dizzy2:

And I would loooooooooove to see any ex-servicemen regardless of their country of origin holding up a crap example and saying how it is really a good example Dave .
Oh but we just did didn't we :dizzy2:



Guess it comes with the territory when you're a Dad.
Hey Adrian , it didn't stop me , I left them here with the wife~D ~D ~D
They are a little too young for a hill-walking pub-crawl , plus its school time .:book:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

And I would loooooooooove to see any ex-servicemen regardless of their country of origin holding up a crap example and saying how it is really a good example Dave .
Oh but we just did didn't we :dizzy2:

---

Oh boy, more global warming ahead. ~:cool:

Oh boy, more global warming ahead
Would that be enough to melt the glaciers that Pape is on about ?
And can we rely on Goofball to give us a reliable ex-Canadian military perspective on it ? ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oh boy, more global warming ahead
Would that be enough to melt the glaciers that Pape is on about ?
And can we rely on Goofball to give us a reliable ex-Canadian military perspective on it ? ~;)

---

He is off killing baby seals for the weekend.
:balloon2:

I wasn't referring to global warming.

Just that glaciers move a lot slower then hurricanes so they speed of response required is comically slow in comparison.

Then again if the underside of a glacier melts enough say good bye to everything below as the whole thing cascades down as a iceberg sliding down a mountain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

I wasn't referring to global warming.

---

Nor was I referring to glaciers. I referred to Devastatin Dave whose reply would probably inject vast amounts of carbon dioxide, neon and water vapour into the .org atmosphere.
~:eek:

He is off killing baby seals for the weekend.

What is the primary use for sealskin ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He is off killing baby seals for the weekend.

What is the primary use for sealskin ?

---

Its used for protection while having intercourse with your canadian women.~D

My My , that was a very quick edit Dave .
You just beat me to quoting it together with a reference to sexual habits down Georgia way .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

My My , that was a very quick edit Dave .
You just beat me to quoting it together with a reference to sexual habits down Georgia way .

---

Glad you got it... tell her the checks in the mail.

Yes Dave , but I thought that according to a leading anti abortionist from down your way it was normal to have sex with farmyard animals , not with your mother .
Are you breaking with local tradition ?
Or did you mean my mother ? because that would be necrophilia .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yes Dave , but I thought that according to a leading anti abortionist from down your way it was normal to have sex with farmyard animals , not with your mother .
Are you breaking with local tradition ?
Or did you mean my mother ? because that would be necrophilia .

---

Glad I wore that sealskin then. Maybe we should continue this in PM, if you'd like to really have some fun...~D

Maybe we should continue this in PM, if you'd like to really have some fun...
No thanks , you have shown yourself to be a vulgar gobshite , that is sufficient .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Maybe we should continue this in PM, if you'd like to really have some fun...
No thanks , you have shown yourself to be a vulgar gobshite , that is sufficient .

---

Well then, stop trolling this thread and find someone else to bug you little name caller...~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Then again if the underside of a glacier melts enough say good bye to everything below as the whole thing cascades down as a iceberg sliding down a mountain.

---

Or a massive lahare mudflow, which is a concern for large volcanic mountains with glaciers on them (Rainier and Seattle/Tacoma.) Not to mention the earthquakes associated with volcanic activity.

Having spent some time across the bay from an active volcano that didn't do much more than steam when it was active (Great Sitkin), I can assure you the quakes are interesting, especially when you are working under heavy equipment. I missed the 7.7 on Adak Naval Air Station, and the initial aftershocks, but was there for several 6+ that followed every month or so. Interestingly, one of the peaks on the other side from the island is getting active again (Kanaga.) It's partner Tanaga has the most perfect shaped caldera in the world if memory serves. One of the two is supposed to have been inactive, but back when I was on Adak in the mid 80's, the navy pilots said that it never had snow in the caldera during mid winter. So they weren't buying the "inactive" part. ~;)

(Memorabilia: I built the external facade and roof for the big freezer building on the "Westernmost franchised McDonalds"--don't ask me how they determined the criteria for "westernmost"--there on July 4th, of '87 while the Marines from the Tarawa were conducting an amphibious landing to celebrate. The base is closed now. :sad2: Would like to go back again sometime to hike and fish, rather than work my butt off.)