Clibinarii Immortals...Oh my!!!

Maaan. I will never ever play against the Sassanids again!!!

I just got BI. Good game, give it a 9.50.
First campaign, with the ERE, VH/VH. No cheating, except a 10 million denarii bonus, from the descr_strat.txt ~D

I had 1200 men. The Sassanids had 300 men.

Battle for Antioch. River. Man, I destroyed the Sassanid army. Only 2 units left: Levy Spearmen and Clibinarii Immortals.

Decided to go against the Immortals. Charged every unit of cavalry into them. 5 Equites Auxilia, 1 Mercenary Hippo-Toxotai, 1 Camel Raiders, 1 General.

The Equites Auxilia did damage, but 4 of the units routed(in total, from 216 men, only about 15 remained). The 5th unit also routed, but I was able to recover them. At some point, the Equites started routing. Decided to send in my general. He killed the most Clibinarii, but he started losing.... 15,14,13,12,11,10. Then, only 10 Clibinarii remained. They routed the 4 units, leaving only 1 unit of Equites with 18 men, 1 Camel Raiders with 36 men and 1 half depleted general.

Finally, after the Camel Raiders started waivering, and the general got to 8 men, and the Equites routed, the Sassanid general was killed. He was the last.

Anyone experience this thing?! I suggest not to do it....The Clibinarii killed almost 300 cavalrymen!!! ~:eek:

I lost 900 men, the Sassanids lost 300 men.

Yeah, those guys are pretty tough. ~;)

From what I hear, of course, still haven't been able to play :angry:

They are super though.....

They killed 400 of my men!!!!!

Did you attempt to maneuver the cavalry in such a way that you would charge them from all sides? If so, then they are tough. If not, you're an idiot. ~;)

Yeap. I use the Half-Moon tactic(that's how I named it).~D

I also softened them up with Hippo-toxotai before, and with Baliistae!!!!!
Nothing....

Most expensive/powerful cavalry in the game. I think they take 4 rounds to train? Their missile attack is wicked too.

4 turns?!
Wow!!! ~:eek:

They're the equivalent of recruitable generals for the Sassanids, right? I'm pretty sure they are.

Four turns to build, but they come with their own general. A single general with a few stars, gold chevrons, Night Fighter, and Cavalry General of Genius VnV line can dominate a full battlefield all by himself. I should know, my Sassanid Heir (the gold-masked one with Night Fighter) rampaged all throughout Eurasia all by himself until he died of old age (at 70) with three gold chevrons, Legendary Commander, Superior Cavalry General of Genius, and Noctophiliac (or whatever it is). Nothing except artillery could kill even a single one. I made it a habit to charge pikemen and spearmen from the front because he was so powerful.

yep. Clibinarii Immortals are probably the best unit in the game. And worth every penny, of course. ~:)

The fact that they are a bodyguard unit (read: NO RETRAINING NEEDED) makes them worth it just by themselves. Half your Immortals died to a lucky shot by an onager? Wait a turn and you'll get them back :gring:

Try using assassins to kill the generals, so you won't have to worry about facing the immortal bodyguards.

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Plumbatarii - Pretty much the same mellee stats as the Comitatenses, but with a better ranged attack. Believe its 2 stronger than the Pila, plus has a range of 70 instead of 45, and finally they carry 14 of them instead of the 3 Pila. Killer infantry unit vs AI.

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I suspect that the ERE Plumbatarii would atleast have a chance against them if the immortals are pinned. Javelins are wonderful.

In the PBM BI campaign we are running, the last Sassanid King I fought was a six-star general with double silver experience and 45 men in large unit settings. I surrounded him completely with good infantry and assaulted from all angles. It still took about 5 realtime minutes for him to go down and I lost over 220 men. Even after he died, his men refused to rout. I had to kill every last one of them.

Don't even bother with archers, they're totally useless against them. The best you can do is simply overwhelm them with bodies.

pha javelins/arrows every projectile is so weak in BI where we had superarchers that killed a unit with 3 shots i killed 1 man with 95000 arrows...not goood

And we had superarchers that ripped every unit to shreds in RTW... As it is now it is far more correct.

Units with large shields should be practically impervious to arrows from the front. Next time try to hit the enemy front their right or rear, or simply target other units.

Plumbata are insanely good at ripping Immortals apart. Their high attack, ap quality and large numbers make them perfect for attacks against basically any enemy but armoured ones are the best to target.

@edyz: I had a similar experience when fighting some Frankish paladin bodyguards as the WRE. They nearly routed 4 comitatenses, 2 foederati infantry, 4 foederati cavalry and 1 general... The heavier cavalry types can be quite tough in BI singleplayer, but I haven't had such problems in mp luckily enough.

OMG i just tried, i killed 1500 soldiers and lost 10..paladins are great too...but the fact that immortals have maces make them the best...they are unstoppable

This will really ruin multiplayer though

The maces indeed kick ass. In BI units seem to have better armor vs attack values than in RTW, to make them last longer. But this also means that armor-piercing weapons are even more powerful than they were in RWT.

The clibinarii (even the regular unit) do not have any real weaknesses; they have good ranged attacks, good AP melee attacks, excellent defense, and they are fast moving (too fast IMO). And the general's bodyguard unit (Immortals) has extra hitpoints, excellent morale for having the general in the unit, can benefit from the generals' ancillaries (such as swordbearer) and regenerates losses for free. It's really all too perfect and could use some sort of weak spot to balance it. In my Sassanid campaign I haven't trained any of them, as my family members + regular clibinarii are more than enough (though I actually have lost some of them in battles) and I'd rather use the 4 turns to train 4 units of Nomad Archer Cavalry for much less denarii.

Are you sure the sheer ownage Immortals can bring to bear isn't partially due to the star effect like the Katanks and Boyars from MTW? Are they as devastating in custom games as they are in campaign mode?

Well it seems they live up to the name of Immortals...

I think Super Sayian Spartans on Horseback would have been too long a name if not slightly more revealing. ~D

It seems as if the only way to take out an Immortal unit (in battle) is to get a lucky shot on the General with artillery. I did that a few times with heavy onagers when laying siege to Sassanid cities. Kill the General, retreat, resiege, Immortals gone. :tongueg:

About the archers. Use them to flank & shoot into the backs, while the enemy's otherwise engaged.

I can't speak about those hvy cav. I start to foam at the mouth

It's a good idea to take down the Sass early, when they only have a few of these monsters.

I had pretty good success (on H difficulty) taking them down using horse archers, a couple of those armored camel merc units and a general.

Basically, I used the HA to kill all of their supporting units and then put them inn the middle of a hail of arrows. Then charge in the camel units from opposite sides, wait a couple beats and then charge in the general from the back.

Counter with Awseome Temple of Mithras+Circus Maximus churning out Imperial Body Gaurds.

Training generals should counter ballance them.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

And we had superarchers that ripped every unit to shreds in RTW... As it is now it is far more correct.

Units with large shields should be practically impervious to arrows from the front. Next time try to hit the enemy front their right or rear, or simply target other units.

Plumbata are insanely good at ripping Immortals apart. Their high attack, ap quality and large numbers make them perfect for attacks against basically any enemy but armoured ones are the best to target.

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yur telling me that killing 1 man with 95000 arrows aka 30 arrows times 4 horsearchers units is historically correct...thats not right...that should have killed the whole unit...i upped all arrows to 10 making 3 soldiers die per volley normally

Kraxis is right. Now, with Archers, from a single fire you can only kill maximum 3 or 4 units with shields.... Much better now. ~:)

I found a way to counter them. A unit of Equites Clibinarii. ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

yur telling me that killing 1 man with 95000 arrows aka 30 arrows times 4 horsearchers units is historically correct...thats not right...that should have killed the whole unit...i upped all arrows to 10 making 3 soldiers die per volley normally

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If you persist in shooting at the front of units like Comitatenses or Veteranii then you can certainly get a result like that. It is a fluke to be sure, but that chance is around.

If you shoot into the back of even heavily armoured units then you will see very different results. I have consistently ripped Comitatenses and similar to shreds by simply letting my archers get shots at their backs.

Ever heard about Carrhae? Well the Romans didn't suffer many losses to many more than 100k arrows... What saved them? The shield of course. Guess what, this case is the same. Don't even attempt at shooting at their front unless you are trying to pull them away.

I just recently destroyed a Comitatenses First Cohort by using 4 units of Nomad Archer Cavalry (my cheapest HA unit from 1st level stables). First, I isolated the cohort by leading the other roman units away on a chase and then surrounded it with my 4 HA units. Constant crossfire from 4 directions at once, with some of the HAs firing from elevated positions was enough to make the First Cohort lose most of it's men, although it still took a while and I had to interrupt the process midway as some of the other Roman units were coming to the rescue and had to be lured away again. Eventually the First Cohort routed and was chased down and killed to last man. In the end, my HAs still had some arrows left, so I think 3 units might have been enough to do the trick.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

If you persist in shooting at the front of units like Comitatenses or Veteranii then you can certainly get a result like that. It is a fluke to be sure, but that chance is around.

If you shoot into the back of even heavily armoured units then you will see very different results. I have consistently ripped Comitatenses and similar to shreds by simply letting my archers get shots at their backs.

Ever heard about Carrhae? Well the Romans didn't suffer many losses to many more than 100k arrows... What saved them? The shield of course. Guess what, this case is the same. Don't even attempt at shooting at their front unless you are trying to pull them away.

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As Centurion Marcus tells us in RTW, deploy archers to the left of your line. Engage with what you have chosen, Archers on your left will shoot into the unshielded right side of the enemy. That works so well for me! Do have something there to protect your archers!

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

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Originally Posted by Conqueror

I just recently destroyed a Comitatenses First Cohort by using 4 units of Nomad Archer Cavalry (my cheapest HA unit from 1st level stables). First, I isolated the cohort by leading the other roman units away on a chase and then surrounded it with my 4 HA units. Constant crossfire from 4 directions at once, with some of the HAs firing from elevated positions was enough to make the First Cohort lose most of it's men, although it still took a while and I had to interrupt the process midway as some of the other Roman units were coming to the rescue and had to be lured away again. Eventually the First Cohort routed and was chased down and killed to last man. In the end, my HAs still had some arrows left, so I think 3 units might have been enough to do the trick.

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I've fought some good battles of that kind. Once I only had 3 horse archers against a very large enemy army, so I had to surround one unit at the time, then fire only with the units behind and to the flanks of the enemy unit, then ceasefire with the others to save ammo. Then charge from the rear when the enemy was about to break. The biggest problem was to get the ammo to suffice, but luckily it did. Anyway, horse archers if micromanaged with fire on only when to the rear of their targets means you can rip apart plenty of enemy units before running out of ammo.

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

I've fought some good battles of that kind. Once I only had 3 horse archers against a very large enemy army, so I had to surround one unit at the time, then fire only with the units behind and to the flanks of the enemy unit, then ceasefire with the others to save ammo. Then charge from the rear when the enemy was about to break. The biggest problem was to get the ammo to suffice, but luckily it did. Anyway, horse archers if micromanaged with fire on only when to the rear of their targets means you can rip apart plenty of enemy units before running out of ammo.

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Yup, archery is not too weak by any measure.

But one has to ask you guys, you did have generals right? Not just captains... Could be you only remembered the engagement now that we are discussion this. That would could have happened to me.

Well, I had a general. No stars....No chevrons...

I was forced to throw him in because I would have lost if the Clibinarii weren't killed...... Oh, and the Clibinarii had 3 bronze chevrons... and 24 men...

Man, those Levy Spearmen are really though....They can even hold off and defeat Comitatenses!!! :duel:
Can't wait to battle the Elephants and Sughdian Warriors. :knight: :duel:

I think I said it above, but probably forgot to ~:), but I had a 0 or 1 star general in the battle, and my enemy was a 4 star general, possibly with high valor and upgrades. So it's not an as big problem in mp, although I've seen clibinarii break through plumbatarii and others in mp too.

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Originally Posted by Celt Centurion

As Centurion Marcus tells us in RTW, deploy archers to the left of your line. Engage with what you have chosen, Archers on your left will shoot into the unshielded right side of the enemy. That works so well for me! Do have something there to protect your archers!

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

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It is dependent on the shields... If a unit has a high overall defense due to a large shield value then they are very much protected from the front, especially against archers, but vunerable to the rear.

If the unit has a high overall defence best they have an insanely high amrour value then it does not matter what direction you fire your arrows from, they will keep bouncing off!!

The Immortals are a bit wacky, playing as the Sassanids I have pulled myself out og the fire is some battles against the ERE where I thought I was doomed. Keep your immortals moving and concentrated and they will devistate pretty much any unit they hit... I have learned through experience that the only units I really have to be wary of with the Immortals are heavy infantry (especially if equiped with spears) and enemy generals as their cavalry is pretty effective...

Thus if you are planning to fight them as the ERE I would take some of those Lancer infantry guys, some fast horse archers (to distract the Immortals and tire tham out) and a good general to shore up the morale of your troops.

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Thus if you are planning to fight them as the ERE I would take some of those Lancer infantry guys, some fast horse archers (to distract the Immortals and tire tham out) and a good general to shore up the morale of your troops.

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I'd throw in a couple units of those armored camels. Hitting the clibs from two sides with these guys gets you all sorts of morale penalties. And, the armored camels don't melt away that fast so you can position your general for a nice rear charge.

The other big plus of the HA's is you can use them to wipe up the rest of the Sass armies without facing too much threat from the Clibs. They can just run away.

Once there's nothing else left, you trot out your camels and deal with the Clibs. At this point they're outnumbered, under missile fire, facing camels, getting flanked, etc. Then they're no so tough.

Found a way to kill them easily.

Just pump 2 Plumbatarii and 1 Catafractarii, and you got them killed. ~:cheers:

I destroyed 2 Clibinarii Immortals, with 3 Plumbatarii and 2 Catafractarii....

The use of 2.5 units to kill 1 unit isn't all that wonderful against an army of equal unit strength.

I play on VH/VH so it's explainable.....

if you're east, just have your generals go into melee with them. Hit them in the back with a unit of camels and it'll severly reduce their stats.

I usually do the atack in their back... usually a few of my cohortes break through. I then turn them and attack their stongest unit from behind..

maybe changing the cavalery formation to the triangle would help in being more effective, it allows you to break up their formation.

My tactic may sound complicated, but it really is rather easy.

I entice the Immortals to charge at some cavalry, then I let them retreat from the enemy. So we have a chase on our hands, just make certain that the Immortals are close enough, or else they might just halt and attack something else.
Then I attack the Immortals with my own general or other heavy cavalry. The Immortals should be running on and my general should be picking them off one by one until the Immortals turn, then I send in the cavalry unit. It should be a onesided affair.