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I just hate the television news - I just watched a news report talking about roits in France - they mentioned it was over some event involving the deaths of two teens and the police - but did not really cover that story or the riot. It was all of about 10 seconds on CNN. Edit: No wonder why I have come to detest the brain drain box.
Does anyone know what the story really was about...
I'm sure some of our European friends can shed more light on the situation than me, but I'll give you what I know.
France has been having major social problems for a long time now due to the massive influx poor immigrants, mainly of North African and African descent. There are several areas of Paris in particular that are ghettos where these people live. They feel neglected by the French government and feel like they are being abused and exploited.
Unrest has been growing for a long time with several particular items contributing the most. The Headscarf Ban, though relatively accepted from what I hear now, provoked a feeling of discrimination amonst this largely muslim population. In addition there have been a string of deadly fires in the poor districts of Paris over the last six months or so. Many people have died and despite huge uproars and complaints over the safety of the buildings and the response of the fire department, the fires continued to happen and people continued to die.
The riots themselves were sparked after two local youths were electrocuted to death when they fled from police into an electrical relay station. Both sides have their own story as to why and how this happened, but it has taken on something of a Rodney King aspect to it for the locals. Protests turned violent and that's where we are today.
Okay here is the news print story from the same Brain Drain Box cable station that ran the story
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu...ce.riots.reut/
~:mecry: Seen from France :
There has been problems in our "suburbs"(understand big, ugly buildings with zounds of flats) since the 70s. Poor tend to go there as it's too costly to go elsewhere, & most 1st generation immigrants tend to be poor.
So you have a different population stuck over there, poorer, & with a massive immigrant part. Add to it the myth that immigrants would "come back to their country" after a few years of making money(who would come back to a poor dictature with a failing health system? when living in France?), and you'll have a grasp upon the level of ignorance each part of the population hold the other one in.
The beginning of the story itself is really enlightening of our current mess. There is a burglary. It happens. Some cops come so see what's happening. Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....
Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.
Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.
The "headscarf ban" in itself is just an example of misunderstanding between communities. The problem is deeper. And when my colleague in front of me says that Azouz Begag should not be allowed to be minister as he's arab, I fear we're not out of that mess ~:mecry:
I saw this on my one train trip through France. I've no problems standing about looking suspicious, some black guy my age was being hastled by a bunch of transport police endlessly.Quote:
Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.
Thanks el_slapper
The story as reported just didn't make sense - It seems France will be suffering from several problems for many years to come - until from what you described it fixes its immigrantion policies, and a few social ills that have developed over the years because of that. Or am I misreading what you stated?
Then comes the question, why do they take in so many immegrants? There is nothing possitive at all to build up ghettos in the suburbs. I say, those who riot shall imediatly be sent out from France.
This is the same think that happened in the immegrant ghetto of Ronna here in Sweden. Maybe worse... ~:handball:
Real proof of that ? As far as I know, nobody can say if they were involved with the burglary (sp?) or not. And after having worked with this kind of people for a few months, I wouldn't say they were honest ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....
They were stupid, and they deserved to die. Pardon me, but I doubt they flee because they were innocent. And if they are stupid enough to die that way, that's their problem.
Oh god, this is the kind of argument I hate. Do you think blacks and arabs have no problem when they want to find a job in other countries ? Now, go and try to find a job in Algeria if you're the average white-french guy. Good luck.Quote:
Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.
Racism works in the two way. Do you think the average french dislike these people because they are black, or arab ? I'd rather say they dislike them because they hate France, they hate the French, they don't give a crap about rapping a girl, beating to death an old guy because he took a photo of their neighbourhood, and so on. Now, I have no problem with a lot of arabs/blacks. I live in a village with a high non-white population, and there's no serious trouble here (although most of the problems are due to guess what, arab people). But the guys rioting in Clichy should just - at worst - be put in jail until the end of their lives, or - at best - be bombed back to the stone age.
Right now, these cities aren't part of France. They have their own laws, their own customs, and if you don't respect them, you ought to be beaten quite badly if you're lucky, or killed if you're unlucky.
That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Come off it Adrian, you consistently posit this line of excrement that suggests that people should not be held responsible for their own actions. You repeatedly suggest that society is responsible for the antecedent conditions creating such incidents and imply that society therefore should just put up with them. This is errant nonsense.
France no more forced these disgruntled immigrants to riot than did the New Orleans PD force people to loot. The individuals involved chose to vent their anger in an illegal and violent fashion. They should take the appropriate punishment. If you are going to "go to the barricades" than you had best be prepared to accept the live fire coming back across them from the ruling authority -- that's how rioting and revolution is played.
Perhaps if humans were capable of communism like ants we wouldn't have any inequity or iniquity and we'd all live is some little socialist utopia. Since that's about as likely as Python's ervine aviation scheme, you could better spend your time thinking of some practical responses such as: limiting immigration, reducing taxes to creat jobs and grow the economy and maybe a little private gun ownership and training to enhance personal safety (that last is just for you Caeser 10).
Find yourself another strawman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Adrian, do not misunderstand me. We (the French) are partly responsible for that situation. By housing all immigrants in a same place, my ancestors seriously screwed things up. But then, some people from these cities achieved to find a job, to get out of here, to found a familly, to create companies...How do you explain that ? If the wished to, they could get a real life. They just don't care about that. They spend their time doing nothing, or burning cars, attacking innocents, throwing stones at firemen and so on and live thanks to drug dealing and to our social system. Period. They are also responsible for their situation (and right now, they are probably more responsible than the average frenchman).Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
When I said this places were out of France, I meant that French laws aren't used here. They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable), their own language and other nonsense like that. Policemen and Firemen are sometimes powerless.
Right, I believe some Communist mayors even contributed to that in order to 'create' a new, socially isolated and economically bereft electorate for themselves. Until French public opinion turned against migrants in the early eighties and began to vote for Le Pen. And those same Communist mayors began bulldozering those same migrant quarters to make place for 'honest' French workers... So do not misunderstand me either, it takes all sorts of idiots to create situations like that. For instance by 'giving up' on those gettos that are in the public eye right now, the French state compounded the problems of many honest migrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
I also believe there is a protest movement against such customs, led by women and youths from those same quarters. Ni pute, ni soumise, no?Quote:
They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable) and other nonsense like that.
Surely they are French in your book? ~;)
I have had bowel movements that had more substance than this rubbish you posted Adrian. Unbelievable....Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Well, if you ask me, my previous post (the one that could have been written by PJ, Kapo or any american fascist wannabe) sounds disgusting, even for me. I'm the first one to make fun of the people who make this kind of statement, but now, things are going too far.
I wouldn't say I'm not racist, because I think that right now, the Western culture is superior to other cultures. But this is not racism. (Most of) The people in these cities are just savages that deserve to be killed on sight. Whites included. Period. They have no values beside their own utterly limited, barbarian screwed up way of thinking.
Sure, we should do our best in order to help integration, to not build new ghetto cities. But we can't do anything realistic for the current ones, except destroying them, and getting ride of the people who're living here. There's no way they could integrate into the french society, get a job and have a decent life, respectful of their fellow countrymates.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Are you speaking about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
I can't find the substance in your last couple of replies ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Can we stop the anal references in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Look, New Orleans was a special place, and generations of Americans loved and appreciated, admired and coveted it precisely for the vices which you and other Conservatives on this forum excoriated recently, in the wake of Katrina, as being the cause of all New Orleans' ills. Generations of Americans have visited, brought (or lost) their money to New Orleans, and helped foster this loose culture that you now deplore. I remember very well the words of author Richard Ford after Katrina hit that town. 'It is - New Orleans is - a city foremost for special projections, for the things you can't do, see, think, consume, feel, forget up in Jackson or Little Rock or home in Topeka.'
New Orleans was part of America precisely because it was not.
Go on, deny it. I don't care.
I'll stop when you stop posting your masterbation material (Abu Grad pics). Deal?:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Edit: not the right place.
Lets see a thread about France and my honest question about the news report I saw on CNN for a brief second.
Lets see el_slapper and Meneldil give what seems an honest personal opinion on the story - and someone who is not french decides to argue using New Orleans as a comparision.
~:joker:
Talking about the wrong approach - especially since this thread was not about New Orleans and the United States - but the riots in France,
Oh well it seems that some people just can not leave the United States out of a discussion - even when its not about the United States.
Oh well I got at least two honest answers in the thread before it degenerated into something else. :bow:
Thinking about it, agreed. Removed my off-topic post.
It is not racism, I have to hand you that. But your solution does not sound appropriate. Or adequate for that matter. After decades of neglect and ignored warnings, we are now seeing the sort of conflagrations in Clichy that we have seen in British inner cities. If you withdraw the rule of law from a vulnerable, socially weak community, violent people and primitive solutions are bound to prevail, as they do in all no-go areas of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Like I said, movements like Ni pute, ni soumise also originate in these communities, and there must be more like-minded movements and positive developments that could be the starting points in a drive for real change. Provided there is a real effort. Shoot-to-kill policies such as you advocate will only make the situation worse and prolong the troubles.
Unless, of course, you favour an all-out, SS-type operation that destroys entire blocks or neighbourhoods. In which case you might as well send your warmest regards to Mr Bin Laden.
~:confused:
You're nothing but a pop-up in your own thread. Live with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/34...llengif8to.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Whats wrong Adrian you don't like being called on using a strawman approach.
By the way you need to wave your ass in your own direction ~:joker: since your making one of yourself. ~:eek:
Why does every other thread in the Backroom have to turn nasty recently? Speaking not as a mod (I have no responsibilities for the Backroom) but as a patron, I think we really need to raise the standard here, people. Is it really necessary to start off a rebuttal by saying what you are rebutting is a "pile of excrement", Seamus? That's just effectively ensuring the person you are trying to rebutt will not engage with you on the substance of what you are saying. And personally, I think it is a pretty cheap way of trying to get around the "foul language" rule. Dave's post in the same vein was not even redeemed by having any substance. Adrian, your "smilie" to Redleg was just fighting fire with fire - and arguably targeting the wrong poster.
There was a time when I could read these threads without my blood boiling, maybe even post and get a decent exchange with Redleg, Adrian or whoever. This thread was informative, until people started being discourteous. I'd like to enter into an exchange with Menedil and El Slapper on the substance of this thread, but right now the bad vibes I'm getting from this thread are literally making me queasy and is putting me off attempting to do so. Similar things have been going on in the Iranian photo thread, the godless Brit thread where I might have liked to have posted but the tone of some of the posts just lowered the quality of the threads to the point where I was happier to see them die. It's just ugly and we should do better.
With these kind of issues we are likely to find the substance of what some others say ugly, even if they express themselves perfectly civilly and respectfully. We owe it to ourselves to try to respond to it in a polite civilised way if any. If we try to debate it in the ugly style displayed here, we may as well just be blowing raspberries at each other.
Maybe I am just being delusional, but I think we used to be better than this. I know we can do better.
~:grouphug:
France need to go through some humiliating changes to survive. Their earlier dominant position in Europe is no longer there and it's hard for the ordinary french citizen to accept that. Viva la France is not so elegant any longer.....
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
Be polite to each other and attack the arguement not the person.
Probaly showing my ingorance here but i'll go ahead and ask in the spirit of getting the discussion back on the tracks.
Do these riots bear any likeness to the race riots and civil rights movement we had here in the United States? From what i've seen it looks to be the same, just with different groups and a tad bit different issues. Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?
My response to Adrian was, I agree, crass. However, I did aim my commentary at a view/series of views he has expressed and not at Adrian personally. He is probably a decent bloke, kind to his neighbors, involved in his community and beloved by family, friends, and his pet. I still disagree vehemently with the line he often espouses on such issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
From what I can tell from el_slapper and Meneldil responses it seems to be more pronounced then the race riots that affected several of our cities and the civil rights movement, but less systemic then what happen in the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdKnight
It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.
But that is just my take on it.
Dear Simon, you are dead wrong. Some of us are having quite a bit of fun lately. For instance Devastating Dave and me. Many others take themselves too darn serious to appreciate a joke or laugh at themselves. Too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
Meanwhile, the only two who actually have a discussion going in this thread are Meneldil and me. Care to join, anyone? What do you think of his proposal to shoot each and every inhabitant of the French immigrant quarters?
What has that got to do with the immigrant riots? And by the way, France's greatness as well as many of her tribulations have often been marked by tremendous riots - several revolutions come to mind...Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
Basically, that's it. And we failed so badly that there's IMO nothing else to do than doing as if there weren't here or shooting them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Well, there's obviously a lot of problems with the way my country handled the huge number of migrants, that caused the current situation. But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it. They have absolutely no claim, no opinion. They just want to fight with cops, throw stones at firemen and burn cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdKnight
Just so you understand the crap we have to deal with, that's also the way they have fun during christmas : they burn cars, wait for the firemen to come and then throw stones at them.
Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
It has everything to do with the immigrant riots. The high unemployment among immigrants as well as the concentration of them to certain areas creates a tense situation where the "socialist ideals" currently rather strong in France can't live up to what it has promised. You can't be a socialist in one moment and then just ignore the people in the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
France needs to get unions as well as red tape under control and promote the entrepreneural spirit often found among the immigrants. This would create commerce and lower un-employment.
Geez Adrian, Paris is burning, they are scum. We have seen this kind of stuff In Antwerp, and now in Paris, and soon here as well. Now what do these cities have in common? These little terrorists just need a reason to go berzerk, and any reason will do.
Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them. Yes, that includes fridges or sofa' sport.
And the unemployment rate in Clichy for example is only of 14% (which is less than in Montpellier). Add to that the fact they get a whole lot of money thanks to robbering or illegal dealings or social helps, and have illegal jobs. Most of these poor youngs are in fact wealthier than the average french worker. The wear clothes more expensive than my whole wardrobe, drive cars I'll never get a chance to buy (although they're often not even 18 or don't have their license, and thus not allowed to drive, but heh, who cares anyway).
And the older people play a role, since they gave up with the education of their children.
Interesting. I was in Antwerpen in the last month and I have to say that in the city centre the only white faces I saw was the cops. Now I live in Bradford where we had our own 'ethnic' riots a few years back and I am well used to living in a multi-cultural environ. Having said that, I was shocked at the amount of 'immigrants' milling around....guys there were hundreds of them. I gained the impression that they were waiting for something. It was decidedly dodgy (intimidating) so I got into the car and buggered off. If I was an indiginous resident I would be feeling very trepidatious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
BTW what do all those red lights mean in the front rooms of the houses just out of town? ~D
Well they are if you ask me, but hey shaorma tastes good ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
And I have no idea what these things are! Why do they dress like that even in the winter??? Cold!
Well, the problem lies in the 60's immigration. So no change in our current policies will fix the problem whatsoever. Most rioters were born in France, and for some of them their parents were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
We WILL be suffering problems. Meneldil is right too when he describes the problem - just that he sees that from an external point of view. Which is very different from my point of view - I tend to know some people from the "suburbs". And our opposition is a good light of the problem. For the "suburb" inhabitants, the french state is a police state which opress minorities, a racist state who is especially an enemy of Islam. For inhabitants of elsewhere, "suburb" inhabitants are violent scum dreaming of reinstate the caliphate & financing it with drug deal and violent crime.
So we have a strong opposition here. And if I can easily give more details about why we reached that situation, I have no clue on how to solve it :( . What is sure, is that the conflict is not only in the streets. It's in the minds, & that's worse.
About our relative socialist country : people not born in France create twice more businesses than the ones born in France. That's good. What is not good is that those who do not do that, have very few opportunities to find real jobs. You see the lucky ones that achieve exiting the cities, & all the other ones, who are jealous & see them as traitors. I'm not sure whether it is a leftist or rightist morale, but here we are. There ARE opportunities, but not for everyone, by far. And the forgotten ones are angry - something easy to understand.
Yes, it may be fun for some people to throw anal references and scatalogical "humour" at each other (and non-participants). However, you did not seem too thrilled about it earlier in this thread. Moreover, it is not fun for some others who at least take the topics seriously, whatever their own self-regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
As you observe, people have different levels of sensitivity to the form of communication but in the Backroom, it is not the lowest level that sets the minimum standards. The forum rules are that discussion be civil and courteous.
In a potentially explosive topic like this - dealing with race and real deaths - I think we have an extra responsibility not to be crass and to try to unpick the issues with care. And being crass will tend to derail others actually having a discussion. This post is just an illustration of that - I am arguing with you over form, when I want to be arguing with Menedil over substance.
The two youngsters whose deaths triggered the riots did not burn cars or throw fridges. It has not been established that they were guilty of anything whatsoever at the time, but prime minister De Villepin called them 'burglars' anyway. I am relieved to see that Sarkozy and other desktop warriors have been rebuked yesterday by President Chirac and told to stop escalating the situation with their stupid little soundbites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Arabs in France have been the subject of harassment ever since they set foot on French soil, and of public humiliation ever since Le Pen and his National Front began to blame them for all of France's woes. You can deny French racism, police harassment and discrimination on the job market as much as you like, but it is not credible to anyone who has witnessed the treatment of Arabs by French police.Quote:
I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them.
And in situations such as those in Clichy, there are always at least as many victims as there are perpetrators. Those cars that are burning are cars owned by mostly hard-working immigrants. Unemployment stands at 14% there, as opposed to the average of 9% for all of France. This means that 86% of the inhabitants go to work every day and literally do not have time for this crap.
As I said there are countless initiatives to improve the situation and bring about a change in the local subculture, but you refuse to address any of them until now, Meneldil. Rather, you paint all suburban immigrants as 'savages' who deserve to be shot. For those who are interested in alternative views the BBC has a decent article.
BBC
Personally, I think that semantic peeing contests are lowest level of debate in this forum. Even anal humour is superior to 'debates' about who has the best and the biggest Webster's. Posts that contain nothing else but anal humour are a tad boring, though. Hence my remark above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
Now, when Meneldil writes that migrants in gettos are all savages who deserve to be shot, I am not content to sit back, nod politely and doze off into virtual limbo. What nonsense.
LOL. Just imagine some of us asking Kaiser what is going on with Mexican immigration in the United States.
'They are all criminals, shoot them!'
'Why thank you Kaiser for your informative post. It is great to have such international participation in this forum so we can all understand each other better.' :bow:
I mean, come on. ~:rolleyes:
Indeed - ~:rolleyes: ~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Redleg, do you still love me? ~:grouphug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Lol poor arabs. The problems we have with them in Holland is peanuts compared to France, ever been to Marseille? What an hellhole. This is a clearcut case of blaming the victim mia muca. It was a bit stupid to call them burglars when he should have known that the police doesn't even go in these area's anymore. So................why did they lie about being chased by the police? Well because it is effective as there are always people that see racism at every corner of the street. It are the same folks that keep telling minorities how badly they are discriminated and what complete bastards we whiteys really are.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
What is love - in the point that you do provide an interesting view on some things - well I like to read your opinions for the most part ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Then I like to tweak you just like you like to tweak me on occasion - so I would call that love in a way. A sick and sadistic way - but love nevertheless I guess. :hide: ~:cheers:
Hell the papercut I got from handling Card stock last night has effected my typing - going to have to go to the hospital and make sure I don't have blood posioning - was I being sarcastic or loving I really don't know...:eeeek:
BTW the papercut really exists and it hurts just a tad. ~:cheers:
Sounds to me like France needs to go to war,:charge:conscript all the troublesome youths and let them get their aggravation out on a real target. A pressure cooker needs to vent, vent it in the right direction. Plus war is good for the economy and patriotism (as long as it is not a long drug out mess – or should I just say “Bush style”~;)).
Are you sure it wasn't your Webster's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
:hide:
You'll be alright. But take care anyway. :bow:
Yep it was nasty - and sharp tagboard the kind you find on the back of your checkbook if its made in the United States. (opps just gave away abit about what industry I now work in.) Cuts nice and deep like a knife - went all the way to the meat in my finger.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
If you keep typing in this size, I will need to go get my eyes checked and will be wearing coke bottle glasses before I am 45 years old ~DQuote:
You'll be alright. But take care anyway. :bow:
Try Tullamore Dew bottoms, they work fine for me! ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Alright Redleg and Adrian, get a room!!! (Simon, is it ok with you to make a homosexual undertoned joke?)...
I like what bmolssm said about "The high unemployment among immigrants as well as the concentration of them to certain areas creates a tense situation where the "socialist ideals" currently rather strong in France can't live up to what it has promised." If you are a legal citizen or immagrant to a country you should be afforded the same rights and services provided by the government that everyone esle gets, ESPECIALLY when you live in a country with the governmental ideals like France. Are they right to riot, no. But is it understandable, yes. What can be done? There are several approaches France and its citizens can take. They could expell anyone breaking their laws and send them back to their former countries. Would this work? Probably not. So what can be done? I don't have the answer and I doubt that anyone here could come up with a plan that would not cause great discomfort or a fight for anyone involved. This is a problem that, in my meek opinion, will only get worse with no clear victom or victor for either the French government or the immigrants.
Not that hard to figure out what to do, 3 times out. If they have 2 pasports strip them of their french nationality and send them back to sandland. If they have french pasport, persona non grata for a period of 10 years(after they have sat out their punishment olol who am I kidding) in the city where they wreaked havoc. If you can't kick them out of the country kick them out of the city.
But could we please stop trying to understand them? If we didn't get the hint allready we are pretty damn stupid.
Sounds like a plan, but I seriously doubt the French would ever do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Only made it as far as post 31, & excuse me for making a slight comparison rather than adressing the initial issue directly. It strikes me that the rioting in France bears a striking resemblance to the recent problems in Birmingham, in as much as a single "incident" triggered larger acts violence.
I doubt that the supposed triggers in themselves would be enough to cause rioting, & violence to a level where people are hospitalised & killed, unless in both instances there was some fairly long running problems that have been ignored. Surely people in "authority" can't be so blind as to think everything is a wonderland of milk & honey when people are willing to go on the rampage.
This raises, (in my mind at least), what the hell are these people being paid for? & by people I mean local politicians, local authorities, & the like.
I'm not a very law abiding soul, but going out for a riot isn't my idea of a good time, & I really can't believe there are hundreds of people hangin out in relativly small area's hoping for the next one to kick off so they can smash some stuff up.
So to sum up, hold resposible the useless leeches that let things get so bad in the first place without adressing, or at least warning that there was the potential for serious social unrest.
Dunno for B'Ham, but for France, it's mainly national politicians that are to blame. Locals did their best to calm down spirit, when all of a sudden Sarkozy launches anti-riot cops to the town. Of course, the troublemakers suddunly found a good way to express their anger, & once provoked like that, began to lead a lower form of urban guerilla. And yes they have fun fighting their "enemies".
That being said, expelling them is rather tough. You can expel newcomers, they'll go bck home. How do you expel people born in France, i.e. French people? Plus I agree with DD this wouldn't solve anything.
Well there is a riot. Then you use anti-riot cops, or are these just for the hooligans?Quote:
Originally Posted by el_slapper
It doesn't help when things are starting to calm down a little.
AdrianII, frankly, if you have a realistic solution to this situation, then do share. Shooting them all is not a realistic solution either (merely a rant from a tired student), but that's the best idea I could find, and not a full of hatred rant based on some pseudo scientifical fact : there's nothing we can do for these people, there's no way to help them now, but if we don't do something, the situation will become even worse. That or totally brainwash them in some kind of stalinist ideological camp.
And where did I say they were all savages ? 90% of them are savages, but I think I made my opinion clear about the 10% that achieve to leave the suburbs, to found a job, create a small business.
Now you have a point of view that I can't agree with : for you, the problem lies in the racism shown by the (white) frenchmen towards the arab community. For me, the racism lies in the problem caused by the arab community.
I'm actually studying in a law university, and in this kind of place, you'll find a lot of people with radicaly different opinions : socialists, gaulists, communists, lepénists, ecologists, centrists, royalists, internationalists, etc. And they all (arabs included) agree on the fact there's a serious problem with the arab community.
And La Paillade is probably not La Seine St Denis or Marseilles, but I think I kinda understood how things go in this kind of place during the 6 months I worked there.
Edit :
And then ? What's next ? We wait for the next riot ? We just shut the **** up, say 'Okay, we're going to handle that quietly. That's not really serious anyway, they are just poor guys. It's not their fault afterall. The police shouldn't have visited this area' and sit doing nothing, which is usually what our political leaders would do ? I seriously don't like Sarkozy, and I'm not a fan of de Villepin, but call a scum a scum.Quote:
It doesn't help when things are starting to calm down a little.
I think the influence of years of racist attitudes is important, and the fact that government officials now seem to echo those attitudes only compounds the situation. I do not understand why you call 90% of the sururban migrants savages when 85% of them have work and only a small group of youths, and youths only, are actually rioting and destroying the cars, schools and shops of other, older migrants. This is clearly a problem of the migrant community itself just as much as it is a problem of the entire French society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all. Oh, and don't fire tear gas into mosques, that isn't helpful at all. The BBC-site I linked to describes some of these initiatives. By all means, prevent the youth gangs and religious zealots from taking over community property, public space and social intercourse in those suburbs. That is the worst that can happen. People of good will should not be allowed to be intimidated by them (nor have their cars burned by them).
Sounds like what we have been doing all the time. And it didn't work, maybe we should have tried that with the nazi's as well; I am sure that 6.000.000 jews would have survived if we had just given Hitler a little hug and a assesment course.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Agreed. I never said we shouldn't do that, and I never said the solution would be to shot at each single migrant who show up at our borders.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
My main point is that the guys who are actually rioting (and there's not only young people FYI) can't be helped, and doesn't deserve to be. They are some fascist scums who don't care at all about the society and they'll likely think that way until their death. I really don't see how we could change their mind. They have been brainwashed by years of islamic or ethnocentrist propaganda, by crappy anti-whites/cops/france rap, and nothing could heal that.
There were issues with the way France has dealt with immigrants and their descendants; if your government would at least recognise such failings it would be a step in the right direction. Moving in riot troops when things are calming down, even a little, is only going to make things flare up all the more next time. If all the government offers is threat of force or force itself absolutely nothing is achieved, only alienation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Much as it would displease the French people what is needed is a concerted initiative to improve the standard of living for such people, particularly with regards to education. The problem was ignored for far too long, was allowed to grow, and is the responsibility of the French government; cracking down on those involved with violence is simply a continuation of such ignorance, and does absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
A policy of improving conditions does need to be combined with proper law enforcement, effectively tackling those spreading hatred and discord. Simply offering compromises doesn't help, but neither does the threat of violence alone; a combination of the two is most important, applied at points in society where either is necessary.
Seems like they are having some fun in Denmark as well...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../posts?page=12
I wonder what all those racist french cops are doing in Vikingland?
This site looks like some extreme right stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Kudos! Brilliant reference! World's best whiskey. Adrian, you just won a "pass" from me on your next outrageous viewpoint. The flavor...the smoothness...~:cheers: ~:thumb: :horn:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
Hear hear.
This site looks like some extreme right stuff
Not at all , what ever gave you that idea ?
Would it possibly be this.....
and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!
It is a reliable unbiased account ~D ~D ~D
Still at least it isn't Skrewdiver eh ~;)
I take it the arab community has a high unemployment rate in france?
If the immigrants who are cuasing the problem are illegal ship them back to their country of origin, if not offer them a job, if they refuse ship them back. It works in the UAE.
Sometimes you have to screw democracy over to solve some problems.
Just my opinion.
Unfortunately, it seems a large part of the Arab community in question is a second-or-even-third generation immigrants, i.e. citizens of France, born in the nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by faisal
So, where to?
The problems of unintergrated "foreign" culture that is plaguing Europe in general seems almost unresolvable from my limited vision, and, even more unfortunately, most blames must be placed on bloody politicians of an earlier generation (the world without politicians is utopia, it seems...) who did not try to solve the problem while it still was new and mostly easy to solve.
Edit: after seeing Papewaio's post below, I must admit I really admire his wisdom now. :bow: Yet, the problem is, many would not cooperate. It would take an effort from the police, the public, and the government to successfully pass the hardest step, the first step: to gain the troubled ones' support. An effort that, it seems, need a figure of leadership so rare now in the world. I mean, how many politicians have you seen lately that actually gives the air of true charisma?
They are unemployed?
There living environment is run down?
Make them work helping to clean up their environment. In return they get to keep social welfare. Also give them extra options to gain employment via training them in useful skills. Have them apply those skills in their local enviroment so that they can gain real experience and be an asset to their community.
Remove the idle hands, and put them to good use. Welfare is not a lifestyle choice it is a short term solution. You don't use a hospital as a hotel. Social welfare is a two way street, and it should be for the benefit of society.
Notice how riots in europe's most anti-American pro-middle eastern nation (other than Turkey ~D) gets riots and America doesn't? Ironic, is it not?
Give a man an inch and he'll want to burn down your capital.
I wouldn't call banning headscarves pro-middle east.
Kaiser:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
Far be it from me to defend France, but America has had riots among the chronically under/un-employed. I don't know how frequent a problem it is for France, though we are fortunate here that such riots happen only once every 15-20 years.
On the other hand, riots in the USA were even rarer prior to the development of the "social safety net." Hmmm...
What do you mean by that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Are they in the middle east, liberating nations, or just threatening the liberator of nations?Quote:
Originally Posted by faisal
Enough said.
And I have a question. WHO GAVE THIS NATION NUKES? (France that is). I MEAN....WHO?
That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Well said :bow:
These riots have nothing to do with France being pro-Arab, anti-American or socialist. France is not a socialist country, the president and government are right-wing and the suburban problems are by no means the result of socialism either. And in order to understand that there is no necessary connection at all, just remember that Britain has had similar race riots in the wake of decades of Thatcherism, whilst the United States has had its own race riots too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
It seems that today French politicians are finally recognising that their whole approach to the suburban problems has been wrong. The head of the Inner City Security Forum, MP Michel Marcus, has said this siatuation is 'a crisis in the relationship between police and the local population rather than an expression of suburban malaise. The police are the only public service that is not adapted to these sensitive areas. There is a problem with methods of intervention, of patrolling by car only, of abusive identity checks.'
The president of the Policeman's Union added his voice to statements that 'drive-by policing' has done a lot of damage and that 'close policing' is necessary to re-establish confidence among the inhabitants.
For those who read Civilised: Le Monde