Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR

Do you remember this?

Chapter 1

PREVIOUS HISTORY

As Speer talks about the Panther you can see how Hitler is impressed and almost like a little boy when he finds a new toy. He tried to rush past the trouble of the reliability of the Panther, but you jump at it.

"Mein Führer, the Panther is obviously going to be a superb tank in battle, and I woul lov to have it with me when we attack." You turn to Speer. "I urge you Minister Speer, to get as many as possible out on the front at once."
Hitler looks back and forth between the two of you, clearly filled with joy, but before he can say anything you do what must be done. "I want all the tanks you have at the moment, right now! The problems of the tanks going up in flames for no apparent reason is debilitating, I want that ironed out as soon as possible. And we all know that the best way to test a tank is on the battlefield. Send a lot of technicians as well." Now Hitler is less joyful.

"Wait a second Herr Field Marshall." Ow, when he uses titles it can't be good. "The Panther should stay in stock where the technicians can work on it, and it will remain a secret. It is important that we do not let this advantage slip."
"If we had time I would agree, but since time is of the essence we must send it out right away. The quirks and problems arise much faster at the front and can thus much easier be corrected, besides the time will not allow the Russians to react to the Panther, now will they need to as there won't be that many."
"Hmmm... I'm not happy about such a case. Remember what happened with the Tiger when my generals wanted it fast at the front?" You remember clearly what happened to it, though the general had a very small part in it.
"Yes, I remember. But this is an entirely new case. The Tiger was meant to be a rude shock, the Panther is meant to be a main battle tank, hiding it won't help much really."
"Very well, I can accept that, but you better not squander them."
Right then Speer joins in. "But we haven't produced more than some 20 operational tanks, what are they worth? Such a low number would be problematic for the logistics." Hitler of course favours Speer. "I hadn't thought of that, yes hold them back."
"No... The minor problem with the logistics will be overcome, we are already having several other trial units. What about von Richthofens' cannon Stukas? There are what, 6 of them? Have the Luftwaffe complained about that? In any case, we have to do this. I can't imagine the trouble if we lost some 100 tanks because of reliability in a major battle. This way we risk less, we are already far behind in tank numbers, we can't afford to have all the important tanks break down."
Speer nods, seeing your argument. And with his agreement Hitler is once again put in a tough spot, he has no more rational points to make. For another couple of minutes you fight Hitler over the issue, going through the entire range of mental states, you rage, argue, begs, urge, demands and even threaten to resign. In the end you are exhausted, but Hitler is even more so. He waves you off with a short comment. "Fine, have it your way!"

Yes, it is stolen from Kraxis~;p
It is the start of his trip through history asuming Manstein tries to win the war with Hitler. I'd like to go another way, trying to win (or at least end) the war without Hitler.

Please note that I am not Kraxis. So please do not expect me to do a story as accurate and brilliant as he did. I even won't do it as interactive as he did.

Of course I have a rough idea how the story begins. But then, there are too many questions and I am sure I will need your help. And who could help better then the MONASTERIES? So let's have fun!

So my question for the weekend:
When do you think is the time that Manstein has to make the decision to oppone Hitler?

P.S.: Did I mention that my English isnot very good?~:mecry:
Have a nice weekend ~;)

Moderator, could you please make it sticky? Thank you!:bow:

I think we should have him bump into a dissident general - what about Rommel, snatched back from Tunisia, disgruntled with being left in the lurch in North Africa - or one of the other generals in the 1944 plot. That would give him the thought which can be mulled over during operations around Kursk.

If we contribute - do we get to share the movie rights???!!!! - I see lots more long periods of mulling over "what if options" - looking forward to being invoved from the begining~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

I think we should have him bump into a dissident general - what about Rommel, snatched back from Tunisia, disgruntled with being left in the lurch in North Africa - or one of the other generals in the 1944 plot. That would give him the thought which can be mulled over during operations around Kursk.

If we contribute - do we get to share the movie rights???!!!! - I see lots more long periods of mulling over "what if options" - looking forward to being invoved from the begining~:cheers:

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King,
The question today is: When is the time for M. to decide to get rid of A.H.?
About your share: Of course you will have to share the fees for Kraxis ~;)
And this is your extra bonus: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Karte_Ukraine.png

Great this came soon Franconicus sama! For your question,first we have to create a web around hitler in order to decide when we can end his regime.We should contact trustworthy people.
BTW if King Kurt gets Ukraina what is here to gain for Kagemusha?~;)

I don't see Manstein having a Damascas moment and suddenly deciding - I see it as an idea which is planted - by say meeting a dissident general - and he grapples with the idea against the background of the Kursk battle. This way, we add an additional collection of "what ifs" - should he do it or not, the dissident general - is he for real or is he a double agent, does M do it off his own back or does he become a figurehead of a broader movement. The Kursk thread was good because, although we all thought we knew what would happen, Kraxis had us guessing to the end - so we should provoke lots of possible directions for the story to go. I'm off for the weekend - look forward to seeing some material on Monday.~:cheers:

As for my share - I can almost see those endless fields of wheat - criss-crossed with tank tracks.~:joker:

Chapter 2

PRELUDE

After your meeting with Hitler you decide not to return to Russia immediately. Now that the offensive is postponed you want to refresh contacts at home. Maybe you can get more support. Further more you want to try to get a better view of the overall strategic situation.

You have another meeting with Speer. He wants to talk about the eastern front. You tell him about the increasing strength of the Red Army and he promises to do the best he can to improve the equipment and supply of your troops. According to his plans the output of tanks and planes will increase significantly in 1943.

He tells you about his concerns about the air raids over Germany. So far, the RAF could not affect the production although the losses among civilians are high. But our night fighters are getting stronger now and Göring told him that the Tommies cannot pay the price much longer. Speer is more worried about the activities of the USAAF. Day attacks could become a problem when 4 Mots start to come in bigger numbers.

Afterwards you have a long meeting with the Inspector-General of the Armoured Troops Guderian. You speak about the events in the last six months:
November - British and US troops landed in Western Africa
January - Conference of Casablanca with the demand of an unconditional surrender
February - the disaster of Stalingrad; then the Soviet attacks on the Heeresgruppe Süd and the success at Charkow to stop the Russians.
the build up of the Heeresgruppe Afrika
the operation to take Tunis
the battle at the Kasserine. Now the Heeresgruppe is heavily struggling in defense.

Guderian tells you that there is no plan to get the soldiers out of Africa. Rommel will give his commandership to General von Arnim. This is a sign that the Heeresgruppe won’t be able to stand much longer.
Finally you talk about the situation in Russia. Guderian does not agree to attack this summer. He prefers building a good defensive line with strong independent tank formations behind it. That is the only way to stop a Soviet attack in winter and to build a big tank force to respond any invasion of the western allies. On the whole you agree. But you’d rather fight the Soviets in summer than to wait until winter. You still have the idea to destroy so many Soviet armies that they cannot start a new attack this winter. Then troops would be released to fight the Western allies. Guderian give you a warning. He fears that the eastern armies will get into the same trap as they did last year. Exhausted by the attempt to break strong defensive lines crushed by a Soviet counter strike. That is what happened at Moscow and Stalingrad. Once again you realize that Guderian is an excellent expert of the eastern front. You remember that it was him who closed the gap at Kiew in 1941 and captured more than 660 thousand Russians there. He also fought the battle at Bryansk with another 600 thousand prisoners.

Guderian tells you that Rommel will come to Berlin soon. He will get the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. Guderian will arrange a meeting with him.
Of course you also have to meet Keitel. When you visit him in his office you find Zeitzler with him. Keitel does not ask for information about the situation in Russia. He just repeats the point of views you already heard from Hitler. He also starts demanding a total victory in the east and expresses his confession that the Endsieg is near. You start getting bored. Zeitzler is ordered to make a plan for operation Zitadelle. He wants to discuss some details. You invite him to visit the front. He tells you that he is indispensable. When you leave Keitel tells you that Hitler will give you the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves.
So you meet Hitler again at March 14th. When he gives you the decoration he tells you that you are one of his best generals and that he relies on you. “With generals like you”, he said, “nothing can stop me from beating its enemies and to create a new, shiny Germany”. Once more you feel that he is very charismatic. However, you remember how he influenced the operations in Russia and all the recriminations and insults.

After the ceremony Goebbels and Rommel appear. Goebbels wants to take a few propaganda pictures of Rommel and you with your new Knight’s crosses. After that Goebbels invites you to have dinner with him.

You meet Rommel and Guderian this evening. Rommel tells you about lessons learned in Africa. You hear the frustration when he talks about allied air power. From his point of view the US troops are inferior to the Germans. They lack of experience, spirit and discipline. Their leadership is poor. The German tanks can easily deal with the Sherman. However, this tank is better than the British. The only problem is the allied air power. They attack everything they see. Without supply and air support his troops had no choice but to retreat.

The Italians will not fight much longer. They are tired of this war. He even suspects the Italian Supreme Command to have rattened his efforts.

Rommel speaks bitter about Hitler. He says he had to fight in Africa without support from home. All he received were accuses and stupid orders. At El Alamein he even had to retreat against Hitler’s orders to rescue his troops. Now they are trapped at Tunis and there is probably no way to get them back. They will stand for the next two months maybe but then they will have to capitulate. This will be a military disaster as big as Stalingrad.

Then he calls on you let them know something more about Stalingrad. You say that it is a similar story. Hitler’s orders made the Heeresgruppe Süd stretch their lines and gave the Soviets the opportunity to close the 6th army in. Even then Hoth would have rescued them if Hitler only made them sally. He is responsible for the loss of a complete army. You also report of the defensive operations in spring. You tell them that you had to fight against the Soviets and Hitler’s ideas. One example is the fall of Charkow. The town was held by SS troops. When the Soviets attacked Hitler told them to stay and fight until the end. Everybody saw that this was nonsense and so the SS leader Paul Hauser ordered his troops to retreat. Two weeks later your counter strike took the town back. Hitler would have victimized his SS troops for nothing.

All three of you feel that Germany is about to loose the war. Germany is still powerful enough to stop any attack from east or west. But it is Hitler himself who makes the fight futile. It is getting late and you all have a bit too much of that French Cognac. You start playing mind games. What would be if Hitler was gone. Would there be a civil war? How could Germany stand that with enemies in the east and west? On the other hand, is there a chance to win the war with Hitler? Or at least come to a good end? What would the US do? Would they insist on a capitulation? Or would they even join the war against communism? Guderian says that there is nothing he could do against Hitler. His code of honor as a Prussian officer makes this impossible. You ask him: ”Isn’t there a point were your honor calls you for more than just following orders. I am a German officer, not a Nazi follower. I am committed to the German people.” Rommel says: “Erich, what do you think will happen if Hitler is dead? There will be a civil war. The fronts will collapse. Million of innocent will die. Everything we want to avoid will happen. You will be blamed for that.” “Doing nothing is not acceptable for me. I have to do the best I can to prevent Germany from any damage. And yes, I will take the responsibility for all that will happen.” Guderian and Rommel get upset and when you leave you have the feeling that there is a shadow over your friendship.

Next evening you spend with Goebbels. Once again you realize that he is a fascinating man. He can manipulate the people like no one else. But he is also a brainless follower of the Führer. He has no doubt about the Endsieg. He suppresses the possibility that Germany may not win. You feel that under his false front he is filled with horror what might happen to him when he found out he betted on the wrong horse.

After two weeks in Berlin you feel it is time to return to your troops. At your hotel you meet Sepp Dietrich, commander of the Leibstandarte SS ‘Adolf Hitler’ (LSSAH). He received his oak leaves two days after you. You decide to fly back together. Guderian drives you to the airport. Before the plane starts he takes you aside and says: “Erich, I cannot help. I must follow Hitler. He is my commander. Hope you understand. Once he is gone the situation is different. Then you can count on me, whatever you want me to do.” You shake his hand. “I know, Heinz. Be sure, there will a time Germany needs you; even more than it needs you now.”
On your flight back to the front there are a lot of things going through your head. Is there a chance to end this war without loosing every thing? Will Hitler find a way? Is Heinz right? Does it make sense to attack the Soviets? Or should you wait? Can you afford to wait while the Amis are getting stronger and stronger? Isn’t it time to end this war by diplomatic means? Will anybody make peace with Hitler? Is there a time when a general has to turn against his leader? And what will be then? Civil war? Will the allies destroy Germany and enslave the population? Will the communists rule?
Like Rommel said: The dead Hitler is more dangerous than the living one?
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1. How can you convince Guderian and Rommel? Who else do you need?
2. How can you replace Hitler without starting a civil war?

The seeds are being laid nicely.
Some pointers:
1) Guderian looks too loyal - I have been doing some surfing on him and he looks too loyal to Hitler to join any revolt - but he might come in when Hitler was dead.
2) To stop civil war, Hitler's death should be an "accident". A possibility here is that Rommel was commander of Hitler's personal bodyguard in the late 30's - so some possible links there. Also, Canaris - head of German intellegence - was quite active in the resistance to Hitler - so maybe some dirty tricks personel could be made available.
3) Looking into the July the 20th plot, there were several attempts on Hitler's life and several small revolts/ coups etc - good link is

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july.html

This provides lots of details and possible strands/ ideas.

4) For a real wacky idea, how about Hitler's plane being ambushed and shot down by the allies. With info from ULTRA and long range fighters - P38's? - you could come up with a scenario. This is not so far fetched - it was how the Americans killed Admiral Yamoto. When Hitler visits Army group Centre he is only 60 kms from the front.
5) Another alternative would be Goering - he was nominaly number 2 in the Reich, but if Hitler died, Himmler was much more likely to take over. So what about using him, either as a possible part of the plot or a fall guy as a decoy for the real ploters.
6) Another sight with some good biographies of German generals is

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/intro.htm
So food for thought - isn't it time this thread was made sticky?~:cheers:

Nice thoughts! Looks like this is going to be a duet instead of a symphony! But as long as you keep being that inspiring I don't mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

The seeds are being laid nicely.
Some pointers:
1) Guderian looks too loyal - I have been doing some surfing on him and he looks too loyal to Hitler to join any revolt - but he might come in when Hitler was dead.
Maybe you are right. I think he had some quarrel with A.H. and with other commanders, but in the end he was loyal. But I agree with your conclusion. In fact Manstein does not have many alternatives.
2) To stop civil war, Hitler's death should be an "accident". A possibility here is that Rommel was commander of Hitler's personal bodyguard in the late 30's - so some possible links there. Also, Canaris - head of German intellegence - was quite active in the resistance to Hitler - so maybe some dirty tricks personel could be made available.
I do not trust Canaris. He is laying his own game. And I am sure that the SD and Gestapo are watching him closely!
3) Looking into the July the 20th plot, there were several attempts on Hitler's life and several small revolts/ coups etc - good link is

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july.html

This provides lots of details and possible strands/ ideas.
You are right. July 20th was a complete desaster. We have to make it better. We have to plan carefully how to kill A.H., how to get rid of the Nazi power, how to prevent a civil war. This is a very difficult job to do. If we make a mistake the result will be disastrous.
4) For a real wacky idea, how about Hitler's plane being ambushed and shot down by the allies. With info from ULTRA and long range fighters - P38's? - you could come up with a scenario. This is not so far fetched - it was how the Americans killed Admiral Yamoto. When Hitler visits Army group Centre he is only 60 kms from the front.
Great idea! But I think that it is too uncertain. Hitler did not visit the front for Zitadelle. So we must give him an additional reason. Then he is not so foreseeable as Yamamoto. I might change his plan twice a day. Then I doubt that he will come so close to the front. And if he does how do we get the information to the Soviets. Will they cooperate. Killing enemies commanders is not part of Soviet tradition. They usually kill their own commanders. And even if we manage to get help from Soviets this is propably something a German general would not do! And even if the Soviets attack, the Luftwaffe is still strong and Hitler's plane will be good protected.
Nebertheless - I really like the idea. Maybe we can modify it ~;)
5) Another alternative would be Goering - he was nominaly number 2 in the Reich, but if Hitler died, Himmler was much more likely to take over. So what about using him, either as a possible part of the plot or a fall guy as a decoy for the real ploters.
I will think about that!

So food for thought - isn't it time this thread was made sticky?~:cheers:
Asked for it! Did not work so far!

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Im going to reply but the questions are so much wider so i need to do little research before answering.~:)

Yeah, it is not easy to free the world from the little tramp!

BACK IN RUSSIA

When your plane finally touches ground Hoth is already waiting. Before he drives you to your head quarter Dietrich says good bye. His unit is already in combat. Back at your head quarter Hoth gives you an overview. According to your instructions the SS formation were pulled off the front and are now operating in the partisan areas. The intelligence expects almost 100,000 partisans behind your lines. They have already a strong impact on your supply and you have the concern that they will become more active when you start your offensive. So this is just a part of your preparation. The SS formations work together with special SS task forces. The SS has cleared an area of some hundreds of square kilometers. However, they have only caught several hundred partisans. The rest disappeared in some other areas.

The front itself is quiet. But reconnaissance shows that the Soviet cart galore troops to the front. And they prepare for a deep staggered defense. The Russian air force made an attack against air fields. 200 planes are crushed or damaged. Obviously the Soviets have gotten wind of your intentions. Again you think of Guderian. Is there really a chance to make a decisive victory? Or are you only going to waste the valuable resources you will need in winter time?

As the front is quiet you use the time to fly back to Germany to have a small surgery. Beginning of April Hitler calls you to a conference to Munich. Kluge and Model are there too. You discuss the situation in the east. Model wants to wait. He says that he is not strong enough now and needs more troops, especially tanks. Kluge and you disagree. You both tell Hitler that the Russian reinforcements come faster than the German ones. Everyday the ratio is getting worse for the Germans. Hitler looks uncertain. You add that the situation in Africa is getting critical. There will soon be troops needed to stop the Americans to invade Europe. Then it is too late to attack in the east. Hitler shakes his head. “Do not worry! It will take months until the Americans and English will be ready to attack us there. Before this will happen we are finished with the communists. Well I have to think about the situation. Go back to your armies, Gentlemen. Keitel will send you my decision.” A week later Keitel sends you news, the operation is postponed.

End of April you return to Berlin. Hitler wants to give some additional instructions for the upcoming operation. Before you leave the front you give Hoth final instructions. The SS division will return to their assembly areas. Two infantry divisions will try to suppress the partisans. Hoth will increase reconnaissance. The last raiding patrols brought more information and some prisoners. Obviously there are at least two Soviet fronts in front of us. There are three fortified lines with anti tank guns and artillery, all entrenched. The Soviets even dug their tanks. Well, your troops are ready to strike and with respect of the Soviet build up now is the time to attack. The Luftwaffe already started her operations. They are attacking the railway net. Further more they are attacking the tractor factory ‘Molotow’, where 800 T34 are produced every week.


FINAL PREPARATIONS

On the way to Berlin you catch Galland, Inspector of the fighters. The picture he gives of the air war is bleak. Lack of planes and pilots everywhere. He expects a heavy bomber offensive over the Reich soon. He is confident that the fighters will be able to stop the Flying Fortresses as long as there are no escort fighters. But he is sure that the Amis will soon have long range fighters. The defense over the Reich is not prepared for that at all. All efforts should be put in an increase of our air defense. But defense does not fit into Hitler’s concept. He only allows to attack and so the bomber program has higher priority than the fighter program. You are really pleased about the conversation. Galland seems one of few who dare to speak frankly. His personal courage is beyond any doubt. Although he is a general he takes every opportunity to fly missions against the RAF or the USAAF.

After your arrival in Berlin you meet with Guderian and Rommel. They tell bad news. The losses of submarines are so severe that the navy decided to stop the missions for a while. New technologies will bring better opportunities - hopefully. The situation in Africa is desperate. The Heeresgruppe Afrika is pulled back to a small area near Tunis. They are under constant air attacks. There is almost no supply coming to them.

You tell about the situation in the east. You tell about the strong position of the Soviets right where you want to attack. Even if you succeed the losses will be too high to compensate. And every day that is wasted makes the situation even more futile.

You tell Rommel and Guderian that you do not want to proceed like this. Your soldiers are fighting for their country. They rely on you. You won’t let them down. If no one else has the courage to do so you will do what has do be done. All you ask them for is to support in case Hitler is gone. Then it is the task of the army to prevent a civil war and to make a peace that guarantees Germany a good future.

Rommel and Guderian do not look happy at all. For a while there is silence. Then Rommel says: “I see! I go crazy when I think that my brave men get lost for nothing at all, just because of the ignorance of one man. Erich, if you need me, count on me!” Guderian sighs and nods.

You have to wait a few days to see Hitler. You play scenarios of what would be if something happened to Hitler.

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Guderian and Rommel are finally willing to support you. But it is clear that it is your job to kill A.H.. So what you need right now is a good plan.

1. Kill him in his HQ.
i) Go in there and shoot him. So you can be sure that the job will be done right. However you really must have a good plan to get out alive and then to keep control of the situation.
ii) Go there and put a bomb in the room. So you can get out alive. And maybe you also kill some other Nazi leaders. But the result is uncertain.
iii) Find someone who is willing to kill him. Of course you loose control and have to fear treason. But you will be free to arrange everything. It will be much easier to keep control of the situation after the assassination.
2. Lure him to the front. There are many ways to kill him there. It could be an ‘accident’. However it is hard to get Hitler to the front. He rather leads from the capitol. And killing Hitler in Russia would mean that you are far away from the capitol. In this case you depend on Guderian.
3. Forget it! Any putsch against A.H. is too risky!

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2. Get him to fly to the front and leak some info to the Russians. They'll kill him for you and then I'm sure everyone will be behind the General's Triumvirate of Manstein, Guderian and Goebels...

Moromete,
Welcome to our story. I need all the help I can get to kill A.H. and end the war!

Lets lure him to the front. Just have to find a way to make him come. And then, how will he be killed? I do not trust the Russian option. First, how can you be sure that this will work. He will be heaviliy guarded and the communication with the Soviets will be difficult. Second, if the other generals find out that you co-operate with the Soviets to kill Hitler - that is the end of your operation. Third, Hitler killed at the front by Russians at the top of his military success - this could make him a national hero.
Like Rommel said. The dead Hitler could be more dangerous than the living one.

We also should start thinking about the time after A.H.. I like the idea of a triumvirate with Goebbels. We might need a straw man from the NSDAP to keep the SS quiet. However, we must get rid of him when we want to negotiate with the US and GB.

Chapter 4:

MEETING HITLER

May 13th. Finally you meet Hitler. When you enter the headquarter you feel something has happened. You feel tension. Nobody is talking to you, nobody even looks. Finally Keitel comes and brings you to the Führer. Before you enter the room he says: “Be careful. He just received the message that Afrika surrendered”.

Hitler stands among a group of generals. You hardly recognize him. He murmurs about treason and cowardice. He looks tired and it takes a few minutes until he realizes that you stand in front of him. He looks at you: “Feldmarschall, we have to postpone the start of our attack until July. First of all I have to fix some problems in the south. I guess I’ll have to take some reinforcements away from you. Keitel will give you more details later.” Obviously the audition is over. You make a last attempt and start: “My Führer, the situation in the east is getting worse every day. We have to face more than a million Russian soldiers, with 3,000 tanks, 4,000 planes. They are entrenched and waiting for our attack. Everyday new divisions enforce the enemy. If we do not attack them now the whole operation will fail. We have to start right now or forget about it.” You realize that your voice was louder than usual. Hitler looks at you with anger. Then he explodes: “Millions of enemies, thousands of tanks and planes? That is ridiculous. My generals always give me wrong numbers to increase their merits and cloud their incompetence. Russia would be an empty dessert now if all numbers you gave me were right. Your numbers are pure phantasm. I tell you the Russians are whacked. Russia will collapse as soon as Zitadelle starts. You always talk about numbers; numbers of men, numbers of tanks, numbers of planes. I give you numbers, real numbers. For your attack you have the same number of planes and tanks we had in 1941 for the whole invasion of Russia. But you only have to do an operation on a local scale. But still you moan.
And I tell you one thing: nothing of it all really matters. Nothing but WILL. When I started my career did I count my opponents? No. I had nothing but will and I will dominate the world soon. The will of the German soldiers will make the victory over the barbarian hordes from the east. And it will make them crush the armies of the decadent western democracies, too. So do not waste my time with numbers. If you do not have the courage to follow me to victory then you are not worth commanding my brave soldiers.”
On the spur of the moment you say: “Forgive me, mein Führer, I am wrong, you are right. How could I doubt? We will win. We will crush the Soviets completely. Will is all that matters. That is true. How often have you shown this that this is true? But please do me a favor. Come to the front! Talk to your soldiers! Inspire them! Let them participate in your will. They love you and they will fight for you. Nothing will be able to stop them then.” Suddenly it is quiet. Everybody is staring at you. You see the furiousness in Keitel’s face. Hitler looks blank. He reflects what you said. Then he raises his head and nods. “You are right, Feldmarschall. My men need me. I will go to my armies and I will lead them to victory.” Abruptly he turns around. Now the audience is finished. You leave as fast as you can. You go directly to Guderian and tell him about your plan. Reluctantly he agrees. When you go back to your hotel you get a call from Goebbels. He is jubilant about your proposal. He tells you that he will make a big propaganda event of this. He wants to talk about details but you tell him to talk with Keitel and his staff.
Next day you call Himmler and ask him for a meeting. He says that he could arrange to have lunch with you. When you meet you ask for support for Zitadelle. His SS troops will be crucial for success. He promises to do the best he can. Casually you tell him that Hitler will visit the front and that Goebbels wants to make a big propaganda event. At once he says that he wanted to inspect his divisions for a long time. He will come with Hitler. You tell him that you think this is a good idea.
The following week you spend a lot of time with Guderian, discussing the details of your plan. Guderian also tells you that Keitel wanted to change Hitler’s mind about the trip to the front. But Hitler is obsessed by the idea. He tells everybody that he will be among his soldiers when the attack starts.

Now there are two options:
1) Stick together, go on and kill A.H.
2) Step aside and let Kraxis do his next interactive

1) Kill him.

kagemusha-san,

Thank you for your detailed reply!

I wonder if I go on with this story. I do not want to spam the monastry. And to be honest - soon I'll be at my wits' end!

But alright! Let's kill A.H..

Chapter 5:

ALEA IACTA EST

On your way back to Russia you think about the situation. Although you made up your mind, you are not sure that you do the right thing. Is a commander allowed to decide that the fight is lost? Is it really up to you to try and change the situation? Do you even have a chance? Or are you going to spoil everything?

It will be your job to kill Hitler and to keep control of the front troops. But you have to rely on Guderian to get control of the capital. Can you rely on him? Will he be able to execute your plan?

When you touch ground at Kiev your mind is made up. Although you worry how to get control of the situation once Hitler is gone you see no way back.

You stay one day at Kiev. The town is the logistic centre for the upcoming operations. And you know very well that logistic is a key to success for any operation in Russia. You also meet the town major and the commanders of the air fleets Dessloch and von Greim.

Returned to the front you find everything prepared. The Panzerkorps are in place. The Infantry Divisions are ready. Two of them, however, are still in the partisan area. The Luftwaffe is already attacking the transport network. The Red Air Force responds with attacks against German air fields and railway stations.

The following weeks you spend more time in planning Hitler’s trip than in preparing the military operation. But finally everything is done. The visit is scheduled for June 30th. Hitler will arrive at a small airport 150 miles behind the front. ‘Totenkopf’ will secure within a radius of 30 km. Units of the Flak will protect the air field.

Hitler will speak to selected soldiers of SS and Wehrmacht. Every soldier will have to give his ammo away before he will meet Hitler. Then Hitler will honor some soldiers. Finally there will be conference with the commanders who are part of operation Zitadelle.

Along with Hitler come Keitel and Zeitzler from the head quarter. Göring insisted to join the visit, too. He obviously wants to use this opportunity to make amends – after his fatal error concerning the supply of Stalingrad. Himmler also announced his visit. He wants to join the conference and then inspect the SS troops.

One week before the visit the propaganda crews arrive and disarrange everything. You start for a short trip to Romania. You receive some decorations and there is a lot of press there. You see that you have a very good reputation. People did not forget that you stopped the Soviet after Stalingrad. The Romanian leader tells you additional Romanian infantry divisions are on the way to enforce your Heeresgruppe.

You are back in Russia on May 28th. Himmler arrives at the same day. Then everybody is waiting for the Führer. In the afternoon of the arrival day you get a radio message from the air control at Kiev. They received a message of one of the escort fighters. He reports that the pilot of Hitler’s plane had obviously problems with his engines. He tried to touch down. When he landed the pilot of the escort plane could see an explosion. After this there was no more contact with the passengers. You ask where the accident happened and get a detailed description. When you look at the map you see that the plane touched down in the partisan territory. Fortunately one of your infantry divisions is close. You send them the order to go there and scan the area. Then you call Kiev airport again. They tell you that Hitler was on board together with Keitel, Zeitzler, Göring and some adjutants.

Next thing you do is inform Himmler. When he hears the news he gets very nervous. “Reichsführer”, you say, “We must keep our balance now. And we have to reflect very carefully our next steps. Hitler is missed, maybe dead.” After a short discussion he agrees to your proposals. The whole story has to be kept secret. He will only inform the leader of the SD in Berlin, Kaltenbrunner. Kaltenbrunner will take care what happens in the capital. You will inform Guderian in the army head quarter. Himmler will return to Berlin tomorrow morning. You will stay at the front to find Hitler. The operation Zitadelle is stopped. You will change your formation to defense.
After that you send a message to Guderian telling him what happened. Your business is at the front. After Himmler’s departure next morning you call for the SS leaders: Paul Hausser, 2. SS Panzerkorps, Sepp Dietrich, 1.SS Panzerdivision (LSSAH), Walter Krüger, 2.SS Panzerdivision ‘Das Reich’, Max Simon 3. SS Panzerdivision ‘Totenkopf’. You explain the situation to them. They are shocked by the eventuality that Hitler is gone. Simon is very upset: “We must return to Berlin at once! We must fight for the Nationalsozialismus.” Sepp Dietrich shakes his head: “No! We cannot do anything there, now. This is the job of the SS at home. Our duty is to fight the Soviets. And this is more important now than it was before.” You agree: “Think what the Russians will do when they find out. And they will, sooner or later. Maybe they know already! We have to be prepared to stop any Russian attack. Gentlemen, I count on you.” You look at the four men and each of them nods. Hausser says: “Count on us!”

When the meeting is over Dietrich stays for a moment: “Manstein, you can count on me. I know you will do your best to save Germany. So regardless what you intend to do, I will be on your side. I’d even protect you against other Nazi formations!” Then he leaves the room.

Afterwards you arrange a conference with all of your commanders. Before it starts you get a message from the divisions in the partisan territory. They found the plane. It is crashed. Everybody inside is dead. The plane exploded when it touched ground. Probably there had been a bomb on board.
You talk to your division leaders. You tell them the news. Operation Zitadelle is stopped. Your army has to prepare a defensive battle now. The Panzerkorps including the SS divisions will be drawn behind the front. Your infantry divisions will fortify their positions.
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Now that you started you have to act fast and decided. Your first goals are to avoid a civil war, to assume power and to deprive the Nazis of power.

You do not have much time. You have to act before the news is spread. And you have to rely on Guderian:

1. Guderian will order tank units to occupy Berlin and arrest the leaders of the Nazi party. Then he will talk to the nation in a radio message.
   
2. Guderian will shift the blame on Himmler. He will find leaders of the SS and the NSDAP to support him to arrest or kill Himmler and start looking for his accessories. So he will paralyze the system while keeping up appearance.

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It has got to be 2 - if 1 happens all the SS etc will unite to take over and oppose Guderian.
There must be a lot of divide and rule here to keep people guessing. Also, the SS divisions at the front must be weakened or destroyed - a "missjudged "Kursk operation might provide the cover with the key units being overstretched and left stranded with no support would do - Manstein could even use political interference by Hitler/Himmler as an excuse. The German Army has the strength to keep the lid on everything, provided the SS can be neutered. The other factor could be some form of revelation about the Final Solution - this could be used to provoke a sense of horror in the Army - maybe even use it to split the nazi party between those who support it and those who are worried about the long term implications.~:cheers:

Number two. But Himmler have to be captured before we can announce that he is guilty.If he is loose when we put the blame on him there will be civil war.
Now is the time to contact the major commanders of Wermacht and prepare to take care of the SS if necessary on one huge strike like the Nazis destroyed their own SA troops in the thirties. Also it would be good to reveal the holocaust so we can really show what kind of Demon SS and the reisfuhrer Himler are.
If there are more loyal SS commanders like Sep Dietrich those should be used against the other SS. No is the time to move fast and decisevily.:bow:

Playing the Holocaust card is a two edged sword. M ost of the people won't believe it is true. And many people would be angry if the Jews, communists and criminals were set free. After all they are still under the influence of Nazi propagande and influence. I think this would increase the danger of a civil war!

I understand your point Franc, but the telling the Holocaust exists doesnt mean that we even can release the people right away, instead we have to chance the camps from concentration camps to refugee camps. And the criminal camps into work camps. One great thing we could establish on probaganda section could be to put Sepp Dietrich in the radio after we blame Himmler. I can see the the text in my eyes already. Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler wants to revenge the Fuhrers death to those who murdered the Fuhrer.
We could turn this fight between the dead Hitler and Himmler, by using the Nazi probaganda machine against itself.I think this would give us the support of many SS divisions. Let Hitler do something good in death, becouse in life he could not.
We can tell the thruth later.~D

Good points!
As far as I know there was no difference between 'normal' concentration camps and working camps for criminals. They were all disguised as working camps. Most of the Germans believed that all the people in the camps were criminals somehow.
Regarding Sepp Dietrich: First of all you have to find out if you can trust him or not. After all he is a Nazi and if he finds out that you killed A.H. he may get dangerous. Then he is more a soldier than a politician. He may fight for you but I doubt that you can use him for propaganda.
I think that you do not time to get all the Waffen-SS divisions and the other formations on your side. You must take them by surprise and have the power before they realize that you are a danger.

We can tell the thruth later. You sound like Gawain! ~D

About Dietrich i base my propaganda plan on this sentence from Dietrich:

When the meeting is over Dietrich stays for a moment: “Manstein, you can count on me. I know you will do your best to save Germany. So regardless what you intend to do, I will be on your side. I’d even protect you against other Nazi formations!” Then he leaves the room.

If you can convince its good for the Germany to turn against Himmler, i think he will do it.~:)
In the Finnish tribe of Savo, we have a saying that truth is so precious thing that you shouldnt use it too much or you run out of it.~;)

THE CAPITOL

30th June. When Guderian gets your message he knows what to do. Hitler is gone. Guderian has to get the initiative and “blitz” over the Berlin. Even though Guderian does not feel very comfortable he is bent on doing it.

First of all he contacts Generalmajor Fritz Bayerlein.

At the same time another person sits in his Berlin office thinking about the message he received today. It is SS Obergruppenführer Ernst Kaltenbrunner, chief of dreaded SD. He is thinking about the news Himmler gave him today. If it is true there will be tremendous changes in the country. Hitler dead? Göring dead? Who will be the next Führer? Himmler, of course! If Himmler gets promoted he, Kaltenbrunner, will be promoted too. All he has to do is keep the situation under control until Himmler’s arrival.

The phone rings. It is the officer on duty. He apologizes to heckle but he received just a call from a whistle blower. He told him that he heard through the grapevine that some communists are trying to start a subversive action this night. The rumor says that they will occupy the new Reichskanzlei and proclaim a democratic republic.

Kaltenbrunner shakes his head. Is this a joke? However - if Hitler was killed by political enemies…? Maybe they try to use the confusion for a revolution. Of course they do not have the slightest chance to succeed. The whole country is under control of the SS. But anyway – this might be a chance for Kaltenbrunner to demonstrate his loyalty. Himmler told him not to talk to anybody about Hitler’s disappearance. Alright! Then he will make it alone.

He calls the SD Task Force. 50 men, well trained and equipped, ready to do anything Kaltenbrunner asks them to. He leads them directly to the new Reichskanzlei.

In the middle of the night Guderian knocks at the door of Goebbel’s house. The servants try to reject him but he claims to have very important news. So he finally sits face to face with Goebbels. Goebbels is very confused that the general visits him so late at night and what he hears makes him even more confused. Guderian tells him that the Führer is dead, probably killed. What does that mean? Can the Führer die at all? Who killed him? All his enemies are dead or imprisoned. Guderian tells him that Kaltenbrunner and a task force of the SD was about to occupy the Reichskanzlei. He thinks that there is a putsch of parts of the SS. A putsch? From a group inside the party? That is the only explanation. But if Kaltenbrunner is involved Himmler is too.

Guderian keeps on talking. Together with Hitler there was Göring and Keitel. Göring? He was the political heir of Hitler. So who will be the next in the succession? Himmler?

Guderian challenges Goebbels to take the interim leadership. The situation is about to get out of control. The Führer is dead. His heir is dead. The leaders of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe are dead. Himmler is trying to get the leadership. And one thing is certain: If Himmler makes a putsch without the involvement of Goebbels Goebbels’ life is not worth a dime if he succeeds. Goebbels finally resigns and asks Guderian what he wants him to do. Guderian puts a document on the table and says: ‘Sign this! It makes me the high commander of Wehrmacht and gives me the order to hold up order. It orders all authorities to obey and support me.’ Goebbels signs without contradiction. Then Guderian takes the phone and calls SS-Obergruppenführer Gottlob Berger, head of the SS Hauptamt. A couple of minutes later the man arrives. Guderian explains the situation. He demands him to support to keep order and to arrest the murderers of Hitler. Berger agrees.

In the meantime the SD task force had reached the Reichskanzlei. To their surprise they were surrounded by soldiers of the tank troops. They were arrested without any resistance. After that soldiers of the Panzerlehrdivision PLD occupy all relevant places in the town, stations, airports, crossings and broadcast stations. The PLD was formed just a couple of week ago. It consists of the tank training units Panzer-Lehr-Regiment 130, Panzergrenadier-Lehr-Regiment 901, Panzergrenadier-Lehr-Regiment 902, Panzer-Artillerie-Lehr-Regiment 130, Infantrie Regiment 9. They were relocated to Berlin during the last weeks. All officers were carefully selected by Guderian himself. The commander of the division is Generalmajor Fritz Bayerlein. He served with Guderian and Rommel and both rely on him.

After meeting Goebbels Guderian calls Bayerlein. Soon afterwards tank soldiers guard the house of Goebbels. The imprisoned SD men are thrown into a SS prison. They are guarded by soldiers of the SS and the Wehrmacht.

Guderian is satisfied with the result of this evening. The night is almost gone and his men control the town. He decides to sleep for a couple of hours.

Early next morning Bayerlein wakes him up. He tells Guderian that there was an accident last night. The SS guards heard that Hitler was murdered and that Kaltenbrunner was involved. The guards stormed Kaltenbrunner’s cell and killed him. The Wehrmacht soldiers could not stop them.

Bayerlein has started questioning the captured SD men. When they heard what happened to Kaltenbrunner they confess the conspiracy. Soon there are enough evidences against Himmler. You tell Bayerlein to proceed. You need more names of SS leaders. Then you call Manstein to inform him about the situation.

In the afternoon Himmler arrives at the airport. He is accompanied by a couple of SS men. When the Wehrmacht soldiers try to arrest them they start to shot. The machine gun of an armored personnel carrier ends the lives of Himmler and his men.

1st July. In the evening Goebbels makes a radio speech. He tells the people that Hitler is dead and that he now leads the government until a new one is formed. He also tells the people that the murder is part of a SS putsch.

During the next hours leaders of the SS, especially Gestapo and SD are arrested all over the country. Berger leads the interrogations with maximum brutality. Most of the prisoners confess. Although they claim that they were not directly involved they admit that they knew about the putsch and tell their guards names of other participants, who were more involved than them. So the list of convictable SS leaders is rapidly getting longer.

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Now the news is spread. How do you think the Allies will react? Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill? What about the Axis?

Churchill and Stalin will not like this at all. A clear enemy is better than a reforming Germany, that might or might not continue the current situation.
Churchill will also hate this for the possible chances of a civil war, in which case the Russians might gobble up all of Europe easily.
Both of them can be expected to gear up their warefforts to take advantage of this, in the hope that the coup fails or the new government is weak and thus can't fight well.
Roosevelt, the naive and gullible man, will be gently pleased with this. He sees this as an end to the most troubling horrors. Chances are that he as a person might soften a bit towards Germany, being perhaps less inclined to accept the heavy strategic bombing.

Japan will hardly be bothered with this. They will stay their hand until Germany is stable, then send their assurances of continued alliance. They care little for internal German problems, as long as Germany is active and an ally.

Italy, and Moussolini in particular will definately not like this. Moussolini has come to depend more and more on the power and confidence of Hitler. He lacks a strong powerbase in Italy, so Hitler represented an assurance of his position in Italy. The Italian population on the other hand might actually be pleased, but they will not likely be more staunch in the war unless the coup is perhaps 'exported' to Italy. Problem is just that Italy lacks any successful commander that can nominally take over, so it seems slim that the Italians will actually continue when the invasion comes.
A strong backing for Moussolini is likely the best at the moment for our little coup.

Hungaria's leader, Admiral Horthy (yes an Hungarian admiral) will be shocked at the very least. He was relatively close to Hitler, and it was 'only' his personal relationship that assured Hungarian troops would participate in the east. This might change now... Unless good old Manstein can personally meet him and form a new personal bond.

Rumania is a tough one. The leadership is fairly weak, and might feel pressured to leave the war now that the looming presence of Hitler is gone. That can't be good, given the importance of the Ploesti oilfields. A new very friendly and more open relationship might just be able to salvage the situation there.

Finland couldn't be bothered less politically and personally (in regards to Hitler), but militarily it will clench it's jaw. As long as Germany fights strongly, she is happy. So any reaction for the Finns would be more of fear of Germany breaking down. You can expect swift backing for the new leadership from Finland for the sake of stabilisation.

The various localized Nazi parties in the occupied countries will most likely scream murder (fair enough actually), but they will be of little consequence as they have very little backing.

Sweden might actually become more friendly again, but don't expect any great leaps of trust. The Soviet Union is just over the horizon for them, they won't antagonize them. You might expect some unofficial recognition from them (along the lines of "thank God you got rid of that guy").

Switzerland will follow you with great interest. A fair bit of fear from invasion have been present, but with more sane people at the helm she might ralax a bit. But she will still be staunchly neutral, though Swiss volounteers might increase a bit.

I think Kraxis pointed out the foreign politics very accurately and i agree with him. But how to continue from this point forwards. That is the tough question.
Now we have the power and and the SS have been neutralized. But the Nazi party is still in power.
So we need to think how to continue this coup and get rid of the Party. So we need a military coup now. Since we lack the Troops to take over whole Germany. I have an pretty radical idea. Since we need to show to the western allies that we want to get peace with them and we also need troops to prevent the Nazi party from getting its act together. I suggest we make a oneside ceasefire with the Western Allies and pull our military out of France.Netherlands and Belgium. It will create an power vacuum there and since many of the resistance groups are communists.It will lead into somekind of Communist coupe in the occupied France.That the Western Allies cant and wont allow.
For the German people we have to say loud and clear: The Soviets and Communism is our enemy.So we need to crack Goebbels to do that. Allies have to interfere into situation in France, and voila we have an common enemy,the communists and the Soviet Union. We also get our Western troops in Germany and after that we can do what we want with the Nazis. In East we have to remain in defence.But we dont need to have a static defence there anymore that Hitler insisted. We can actually start using some Strategy again in our manouvers.
Also we have to brake our alliance with the Japanese.Damned this is getting complicated.
exellent story Franconicus- san.:bow:

Welcome Kraxis! It is a honor and a pleasure to see you here!:bow:

I agree with your analysis about Rosevelt and Churchill. The big question is if they still insist on their 'unconditional surrender'? This is one thing the German generals would never accept.
I agree that Churchill will want to accelerate the attacks on Germany. However, what can he do? British strategy is not very flexible, more planned on the long run. I do not think he will land in France in 1943.
Roosevelt? Does he want to fight the Germans any longer. Risk the blood of US soldiers - what for? Maybe heavy bombing is enough?

The eastern countries are not a big issue. Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Finland, what are their options. If Germany looses the Soviets will eat them alive. No matter if they try to change sides. And if the Germans and Soviets find an agreement - this might be even worse.
Maybe I am wrong: :scared: http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1943/jul1943/f01jul43.htm

Japan does not bother me at all. Let them do their war.

kagemusha,

Together with the SS the NSDAP lost most of its power. Please note that all the police was controlled by the SS. That is past. There is no clear leader of the Nazis. We still need Goebbels to keep the party quiet. But we have to install a government as well. There should be some democrats in it.

What are the goals of Guderian and Manstein. Well, compared to Hitler they are saints, but they are still - let's say - German patriots. So they want to have a German domination in Europe. Hell, they fought a lot for that and now they should give it up? Remember that they still believe in a German victory.

Germany has two options. First, make peace with the US and GB. However, both will not accept that easiliy. First you have to get rid of Goebbels and second you must show them that Germany is willing and able to fight until the end.
The second option is to find an arrangement with Stalin. Maybe not your first choice, but if the western allies do not want to co-operate? But to come to an agreeement with Stalin you need a big victory first too.

Anyway, to make peace you have to beat the Soviets!

Leaving the occupied countries in the west is an interesting option. Of course this has to be carefully planned. And you must have the right timing! Or this will lead to a desaster!!

There are two other issues:
What are we going to do with the prisoners in the KZ? If we release them this might cause a civil war. Or at least weaken the will to fight. If we do not - then we are not better than the Nazis.
What are we going to do about the foreign workers? We need them to increase our production.~:confused:

Chapter 7:

THE DUCE

July 1st. In Rome there is Benito Mussolini thinking what the news mean to him. He knew that the situation was critical before. He was wondering how to break the alliance with Hitler and make peace with the Allied. He knows that he will never win the empire he dreamed of. In this war, he can only loose. And he does not know if he can rely on his people or even on his own party.
Now Hitler is dead, murdered by his own people. Mussolini really does not know what to do. Late at night a crowd of people come to his house. It is Marshall Pietro Badoglio and some other members of the Fascistic Council. They tell him that the council decided to end this war. Now that Hitler is gone they do not feel the need to keep the alliance with Germany. They want Mussolini’s demission and tell him that the king already agreed. Mussolini shows no reaction at all. He follows Badoglio. However on the way to the residence of the king the car is stopped by a passenger car and two trucks. German paratroops leave the trucks and encircle Bodoglio’s car. A German general comes out of the car to Mussolini. It is General Student. He says: “Duce, may I bring you back to your office? My men will guard you. We already arrested the members of the Fascist Council. Marshal Badoglio, would you please follow these men?”
Next morning Mussolini makes a radio speech. He assures the new German government the full support and calls the Italian people to fight side by side with their German comrades against the enemy.


STALIN

When Stalin gets the news about Hitler he is shocked. How could this happen? He calls for General Onjanow, Director Intelligence Germany.

When the intelligence officer enters Stalin asks:
“Did you hear the latest news from Germany, Onjanow?”
“Yes, Comrade Stalin, Hitler is dead!”
“Excellent! Now tell me how this happened!”
“Well, we do not know exactly what happened, as yet. Obviously he wanted to visit the troops at the Kursk front. We knew that several important persons were on their way, but we thought it was only Himmler and Keitel.”
“Ah, you thought! And what does the Director Intelligence Germany think about his death?”
“Well, to be honest, we have no explanation so far.”
“No explanation? Could it be that German communists did it?”
“No, not as far as we know.”
“Not as far as you know? What about German conservatives, or military?”
“We have no indices for that.”
“Did we get any information from London?”
“No! The latest information was about the beginning of the German operations at Kursk. They told us they would start at July 5th.”
“So you do not know anything at all!”
“Maybe it was just an accident!”
“Comrade General, go home right now and stay there. You are under arrest.”
”Yes, Comrade Stalin!” The man salutes and leaves the office.

Stalin is very angry. Once more he feels that he is surrounded by incompetence.
Hitler is dead and he has no information what is going on. Well, at least it is clear that it was not a communist action. So it must have been the conservatives. Military or even men from the Nazi party. If this is right then they have contacted the Anglo-Americans first. Maybe it was engineered by the Brits? Doesn’t it look like a Churchill plan? Then his Western Allies may soon make peace with the Germans. Stalin knows very well that they never were in a hurry to attack Germany. And he knows that Churchill hates communists even more than fascists. Sure, they send weapons. But the reason for this is that they are happy that Germans and Russians are killing each others. How many allied soldiers died in the war? And how many were British or Americans?
What if the Americans and the British make peace while the German armies are still in Russia? Then the Soviets will have to fight alone. Maybe even against the British and the Americans, too. They could use this chance to wipe out communism.

The more he thinks about it the more he sees how dangerous the situation is.

In the afternoon the Soviet General Staff Stavka meets. Stalin looks at his commanders. General Zhukov explains the situation at the Central and Woronesch Front. He says that the expected attack did not take place. Instead the Germans are pulling their tank formations back. Partisans observed big railway traffic bringing tanks to the west. There are also rumors that new infantry divisions arrive. Perhaps these are Rumanians. All those facts lead to the conclusion that the Germans are changing to a defensive formation.

Stalin stands up and says: “Comrades, now that Hitler is dead we have a complete different scenario. We do not know what is going on exactly. But we must expect the worst. Now is a time of confusion, not only for us but also for the Germans and the western countries. It might happen that our western allies will find an agreement with the German fascists and will attack us together with them. Our only chance is to use the current confusion and attack the German before they rearrange. We must throw them out of our country before they have time to find an arrangement against us.
I want the Stavka to prepare operation plans to push the Germans out of the country. I want a joint strike of all fronts. These operations have to start within two weeks.”
Zhukov replies: “Comrade Stalin, it is impossible to start an operation of this size within two weeks. Most of our troops are concentrated in the Central, the Woronesch and the Steppe Front. 20 percent of our field divisions, 35 percent of our tanks and 27 percent of our planes are concentrated at this small area. And these forces are not prepared for an offensive operation.”
Stalin remains silent for a moment. Then he says with a soft voice: “Comrade Zhukov, if you are not able someone else will! I expect to see your plans within a week. The meeting is over!”

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CHURCHILL

At the same time there are emergency sessions at London. Also here intelligence has not given any advance warning.

Churchill comes pretty fast to the conclusion that Himmler was the driver of this putsch. But Himmler is dead too. So, who will be the new German leader?

There are two possible scenarios – and Churchill fears both of them:
German army collapses. Then the Soviet will advance rapidly and probably control all Central Europe including Germany. A communist controlled super Europe – that is Churchill’s nightmare.
Germany and Russia find an agreement. They did it before and why shouldn’t they do it again, now that Hitler is gone. Then Germany will concentrate its forces against Britain. And Britain will have to enforce his armies in India and Iraq too. Though Churchill does not doubt that GB will win this war he knows that it will take a long time. But how long will the British be willing to fight, now that the enemy is no longer a cruel fascist dictator? And what about the allies? Canada, Australia, South Africa? When will they be tired of this war? And the US?

How does the new situation affect the war? Right now the Allies accumulate troops for the invasion of Sicily. Extended bombing raids against German towns are planned for the near future. And the battle in the Atlantic is still not over – even though the Krauts are very quiet there in the moment.

Churchill feels that this is a critical moment. His decisions will change the course of the world. He has to find a way to parry every move of the Germans or Russians. Suddenly he has an idea. Still dim but it is getting clearer and clearer.

Britain has to be ready to stop the Soviets in case Germany collapses. It also must have a plan to attack Germany immediately in case Russia quits the alliance. Attacking Italy does not thread the Germans. And the invasion of France is too difficult. The Krauts had three years to fortify the coast. But why not attack the Germans where they are weak?

What if the troops who are now waiting in Northern Africa were redirected to the Black Sea? If they attack Bulgaria instead of Italy? Bulgaria would not try to resist. They would be happy to leave the axis and be protected against the Soviets. Romania would follow as well. The German eastern front would collapse and the British and US troops could march north to take Hungary and Poland. Controlling the Romanian oil and attacking Germany from two sides would bring the Allies in a position where they can end the war without the support of the Russians.

But is this feasible? If Turkey can be argued in it then the British navy would control the sea. Of course there would be some trouble with the German air force. But Germany would be taken by surprise and before they know what is going on the Allies would control a big part of Bulgaria.

Churchill calls his staff and asks them about their opinions. In general, they agree, but they raise some pleas. What to do if the Turks will not cooperate? And how to convince the Americans? The Yanks would like to attack the Germans at there strongest point and then march straight to Berlin. Churchill shakes his head. So much power and no idea about strategy. But the Americans demand the leadership of the European operation, although it is the British who are fighting for years now and know the situation in Europe so well.

After the discussion there are three options:

1. Follow Churchill’s plans. Stop Husky and negotiate with Turkey! If they agree attack the German flank by landing at Bulgaria. However, this may stress the relation to America.
2. Like 1.. But also prepare a landing at Greece just in case the Turks will not cooperate. However, marching through Greece will be much harder.
3. Forget Churchill’s idea. Nor Turkey neither the US will agree. So go on as planned and execute Husky.

So now we are the Allies?

#2 seems the best... Husky is too easily halted.

Aargh! This is coming more and more complicated. I would say number 1). But this is complitely biased answer towards Germans. Landing in the Bulgaria will lead in problems with the Soviets in the long run becouse they think Bulgaria is on their power circle. :bow:

Kagemusha,
Who said it would be easy to kill A.H. and end war?
Regarding the Soviets? Churchill surely expects trouble. Poland will cause trouble, because it is in the power circle of both. Churchill is not the kind of man who wants to avoid trouble. The only issue is trying to avoid trouble until Germany is done or not?

Kraxis,
Maybe I should have posted the ‘rules’ before.

The purpose of this story is to think about how Manstein could have ended the war. I know that I cannot rewrite history, but I want to find a possible or even likely scenario.

This is the agenda:
1) Find a way to kill A.H. and do it
2) Get control over Germany
3) Make the new strategic setup for the other nations
4) Go back on the battle field and fight the decisive battle
5) End

Although I have an agenda this does not mean that the story is already written. In fact I do not know exactly what the next steps are or if the story will really follow the agenda at all. And the end is completely open.

This is a kind of brain storm. So to proceed I need input, lots of input. Sometime I may ask for general information, sometimes I may give different options. The MONASTARY can provide the different views of people from a lot of different countries. This is what I need to avoid writing a ‘German’ story.

But without feedback, this story will soon end. Without kagemusha Hitler would still be alive! Thanks kage!!:bow:

I think as soon as the fighting starts again the story should stay at one side.

For those who want to jump on our little mind game here a short status:

Hitler is dead. The SS is neutralized. At the moment Manstein, Guderian and Rommel control the government. Zitadelle has been stopped. Italian government is controlled by the Germans. Stalin already decided to attack asap. Churchill was wondering if he should change the strategy. So far the result of the poll is ‘undecided’.

Thanks for the kind words Franconicus.:bow: How i see this is that its essential for the survival of the Germany and whole East Europe to turn The Allies against eachother. Now that there is no more idealogigal war between Germany and the Western allies. We should try to pursuit peace negotiations with the Western allies. Maybe Finland could help, becouse they had an diplomatic contact to United States through the whole war provided by Sweden.
Btw i disagree on the Italian coup.I think the only way to open the Western eyes towards our cause is to show them that there might be even worse ruling parties, then German military.(Read communist coup)~;)

Franconius - sorry there has been no input from me recently - too busy at work!!
My thoughts;

1) Stalin's sounds about right - I think that Zukov would be more aggressive, throw everything against the roumanians, attack every where, encourage all communist resistance groups across Europe to step up activities to keep the pot boiling.

2) Italy sounds right - I am sure that Mussolini still will have his date with a lamp post.

3) Churchill sounds wrong - I can't see him going for Bulgaria - the scar of the Dardenelles must still be on his mind. Even if the Turks agreed passage, assistance etc - not that likely I would say, memories of WW1, strong links with Germany etc - any invasion force going through the Dardenelles would be a sitting duck for air and sub attack. So I see the following as more likely.
Churchill likes the soft southern belly approach, so what about attacks on some of the following - Sardina, Corsica for air bases to cover the invasion of Southern France, Greece - Churchill was fascinated with it and surpressed the Communist revolt at the end of the war - again for airbases to cover an invasion of yugoslavia to link up with the partisans. Historical hindsight says that invading Scilly and Italy were, on the whole, a bit of a waste - very defensable ground all the way to Switzaland. It's only use is to take Italy out the war - and that effectively happened with Mussolini needing student's assistance as the Italian forces are obliviously falling apart. If i was Churchill, I would also order another, bigger, Dieppe style raid - (hopefully with all the lessons of the previous year remembered) to see what transpires. Churchill, I think, would still see the defeat of Germany as the main aim of their war effort. The memories of the last 4 years would not dissappear overnight - he would worry about the soviets - don't want to change Europe dominated by Germany to Europe dominated by russia - but the Soviets are still facing the vast majority of the German forces and the German mobile forces are required to respond to uprisings in Germany and the occupied territories as well as the inevietable Soviet attack (Churchill's intellegence would be very aware of that)
4) The unknown is the Americans. Mid 43 sees them worried about Japan - Guadacanal etc - and they need the Brits for all of that, if only for the bases of India and Austrailia. Also, as more emerges about the final solution, the Americans will want to bring Germany to book. Finally, they need a Europe which is in their sphere for trade - the European market is still the principle place for American goods, so I see them as keeping the pressure on through bombing and working with the Brits.

So - a few thoughts to keep the pot boiling. The problem Manstein has is that all over Europe everybody has millions of reasons to mistrust and hate the Germans, so the " Hitler was a bad man and we were only obeying orders, so let's be friends" approach is not going to work. 43 was the period of the war when the Allies "unconditional surrender" approach appears, so I see tough times ahead for Manstein.~:cheers:

kagemusha,
I do not think that it is easy to find an agreement with US and GB - though not impossible either. You cannot say, well the Nazis were the bad guys who bombed your towns and sunk your ships, but we are German military and we are different. The best card is the fear of communism. At least Churchill does not want to have a communist European mainland. Roosevelt - I guess he does not care.
Another option is to make peace with Stalin. Although our three generals would not like that this option would increase the pressure on the US.
Please do not forget that the German military wants to have a German domination in Europe.

KK,
In general I agree with you. However I do not think that Churchill will land at the continent before Overlord. He is not the person for a big miliotary adventure. Further more in 1943 the Brits are not able to have a strategy of their own. They depand on the US and the US demand the leadership. Churchill may pretend that he is still leading a worldwide empire, but in fact he has to follow the US.

Chapter 8:

THE WESTERN ALLIES

Same time Roosevelt and his Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall have a conference Washington. Roosevelt wonders if it is possible to find an agreement with the new German government. Maybe it is not necessary to invade the European mainland. That would reduce the cost of American lives and the military could focus on Japan. He wants to stop all activities of the army. The bombing should be enough at the moment.

Marshall tells him that it is far too late to stop ‘Husky’. Everything is ready and scheduled.

Roosevelt gives in. So the landing in Sicily will take place. Regarding Normandy he postpones any decision. Staff shall prepare everything. No one knows which way Germany will go actually. Maybe it is good to have the option to attack the German forces directly at France and then go straight to Berlin. Marshall agrees.

Marshall reminds the president that the British still oppose the French plans and favor operations in the Med.. Roosevelt smiles: “I know. Our British friends love to beat about the bush. Now that Hitler is gone there is absolutely no reason to go a long way round. If necessary we will go straight to Berlin. This I promise to you. And I have no doubt that Winston has the same opinion. I will call him this evening. Maybe we should consult Uncle Joe immediately, too!”

Late in the evening Roosevelt and Churchill have a long phone conference. After a long controversial discussion they agree to land in Sicily according plan. The US and British staff will discuss where the next operations will take place.

Churchill and Roosevelt agree to meet mid of July to make the final decision and to adjust the new strategy, the conditions for peace talks and the relationship to Stalin. Before that there will be no direct consultations with Stalin.

Roosevelt insists to contact the new German government as soon as possible. Churchill rushes him not to start any consultations as long as the British American conditions are not arranged.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


ZHUKOV

July 8th. After the meeting with Stalin Zhukov wonders what to do. Most of the Soviet forces are concentrated at the Kursk area. And those are not prepared for any prompt offensive operation.

Stalin expects the German to be in confusion. Maybe he is right. Maybe now is the time to attack.

Zhukov meets the commanders of the three Kursk fronts, Rokkosovsky, Vatutin and Konew. They tell him that recon shows that the Germans are leaving. It seems that the Germans are pulling their tank divisions back. Partisans report of an endless stream of German troops heading west. The whole HGr. Süd is on the move. At Kursk Romanian divisions replace German. Latest reports tell that the same happens at HGr. Mitte. Same reports from the North Caucasus and South Fronts. In the south the Germans seem to prepare the clearance of the Kuban mouth and maybe even Crimea. From north to south the German lines are getting thinner and thinner.

What are the intentions of the fascists? Are they retreating? Are they going to fight an invasion of the Americans? Are they going back to Germany to fight a civil war? Did the new German government decide to leave Russia? Or – is this nothing but a big trap?

Zhukov hates the situation. He does not know who is leading the German forces now. What are his plans? He feels a bit helpless. Twice the Germans managed to take the Russians by surprise. In 1941 when nobody expected a German invasion and in 1942 when they attacked at the southern section instead attacking Moscow for the second time. Both times the Russians paid a huge price. And when they finally thought they could chase the Germans after the battle of Stalingrad this Manstein suddenly conjured up some tank corps and turned the Russian invasion into a bloody disaster.

Anyway, Zhukov remembers Stalin’s words and he knows that he has no choice. He has to attack and hope for the best. So he reminds his commander of Stalin’s order and demands their proposals.

Rokkosovsky makes his proposal: “Let the entire south wing attack. This includes 7 fronts from Bryansk to North Caucasus. Each front is stronger than its German opponent. We will chase the Germans out of Ukraine.”

Zhukov shakes his head: “This is far too dangerous. We do not know where the German tanks are. If we act without care we may run into a trap like we did this spring.”

Vatutin agrees: “Your right, General Zhukov! The most dangerous parts of the German army are the tank corps. Intelligence reports that they have new improved tank models. Maybe the T34 is outgunned now. We must beat them before we launch a big invasion. But how can we beat them if we do not know where they are? Let’s see if comrade Konew knows the answer!”

“Of course I do, Vatutin! We have to attack something that is so precious to the Germans that they will attack us. Then we can use our advantage regarding ATGs, too.”

“I see we have the same idea.” Vatutin replies. “So let us start the operation with our three fronts. We have the most tank units in the whole army. And thousands of ATGs. Let’s break through the German lines. Then stop Central and Voronesz while Steppe turns south to attack Charkow. If we are lucky we can encircle the 8th army! I bet Fritz will attack us then!”

Konew disagrees: “No, no, no! Charkow is nothing but ruins. I doubt that the Germans will try to defend it. And I doubt that Stalin wants only one front to attack. No! We must think big! Let’s break through the lines and then keep on pushing straight westwards! Voronesz will go straight to Kiev while the other fronts secure the flanks. The Germans will try to stop us. Kiev is too valuable to loose. Then we have all three fronts ready for the big strike. Once we defeated the German tanks Voronesz and Central can take Kiev while Steppe heads for Tscherkassy and crosses the Dnjepr there. The other fronts – Bryansk, Southwestern, South and North Caucasus can then join the attack. And while they attack the Germans frontal Steppe will break in their rear and take Odessa. Central and Voronesz can assist and cover this operation. Finally we will cut off the entire Heeresgruppe Süd!”

Now Zhukov has to decide.

1. Rokkosovsky’s proposal: Attack at the entire front. If the Germans are really in disorder this might be the best decision. However you have no idea where those damned German tanks are. If they ambush you this operation could end as a big fiasco.
2. Vatutin’s plan: Start with a small scale attack. Taking Charkow would certainly threaten the Donesz area and give you a good position for further attacks. However, Stalin will not be very happy to see only one front fight.
3. Konew’s plan: Cutting off the entire Heeresgruppe! Stalin will love this plan. It would defeat the Germans at the southern area completely and open the door to Romania. This could end the war. But isn’t this too daring?

Now this is tricky. If we act as Russians, we probably choose 1 or 3 with 1 being favourite as this is similar to what happened in 1944. It also seems the more cautious, all out attack version. With our inside knowledge maybe 2 is better - an initial strong probe, some sucess then possible exploitation - but the Russians don't know the true picture.

So I think 1 - it seems the most Russian and Rokkosovsky was Zhukov's (and mine!) favorite general.

As for Churchill, I think a large scale Dieppe raid would appeal to him. It could stir up a hornet's nest and if things go well, then it could be expanded. If it goes badly then just withdraw. Its main use would be to draw a response from the Germans - and the Vichy French - would the Vichy government see it as an opportunity to cut their losses and come back to the Allies? Memories of Oran might be a problem - but they didn't put up a fight to Torch did they.~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Now this is tricky. If we act as Russians, we probably choose 1 or 3 with 1 being favourite as this is similar to what happened in 1944. It also seems the more cautious, all out attack version. With our inside knowledge maybe 2 is better - an initial strong probe, some sucess then possible exploitation - but the Russians don't know the true picture.

So I think 1 - it seems the most Russian and Rokkosovsky was Zhukov's (and mine!) favorite general.

As for Churchill, I think a large scale Dieppe raid would appeal to him. It could stir up a hornet's nest and if things go well, then it could be expanded. If it goes badly then just withdraw. Its main use would be to draw a response from the Germans - and the Vichy French - would the Vichy government see it as an opportunity to cut their losses and come back to the Allies? Memories of Oran might be a problem - but they didn't put up a fight to Torch did they.~:cheers:

---

King,

1) is what they did after Kursk, when the German tank divisions were exhausted and German troops were send to the western fronts. So our scenario is a bit different. ~:)
3) is similar to the operation early this year when Manstein managed to stop them. So I would not call it 'Not Russian'!
But I do not want to influence you. Aren't you called 'hammer of the east'?~:cheers:

Regarding Vichy: Petain has nothing to win when the Allies take France and bring de Gaule. Though he will not support the Germans I doubt that he will ever fight with the Allies. His army is a different thing. Most of his troops wont fight the allies if they attack France. Some may even join them.

Dieppe: What can Churchill win with another small landing? Although he controls the sea the Grman Luftwaffe is still fighting and the German army in France is strong enough to fight a small scale invasion. Probably the German staff would call some units from Russia to enforce France; but that is not what Churchill wants right now. And theUS would be angry too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

King,

1) is what they did after Kursk, when the German tank divisions were exhausted and German troops were send to the western fronts. So our scenario is a bit different. ~:)
3) is similar to the operation early this year when Manstein managed to stop them. So I would not call it 'Not Russian'!
But I do not want to influence you. Aren't you called 'hammer of the east'?~:cheers:.

---

Both seem quite Russian to me, but the more Russian seems 1) - attack all along the line and find the weakness as opposed to long sweeping encircling attacks. As for the "Hammer of the East" - that is from my MTW exploits as the English in a recent campaign as opposed to anything deeper!! After more recent exploits, it should be changed to destroyer of the Welsh!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Regarding Vichy: Petain has nothing to win when the Allies take France and bring de Gaule. Though he will not support the Germans I doubt that he will ever fight with the Allies. His army is a different thing. Most of his troops wont fight the allies if they attack France. Some may even join them..

---

I just see the Vichy involvement as another angle - sort of rats leaving the sinking ship etc - Petain wouldn't welcome DeGaulle, but a coup or revolt - who knows??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Dieppe: What can Churchill win with another small landing? Although he controls the sea the Grman Luftwaffe is still fighting and the German army in France is strong enough to fight a small scale invasion. Probably the German staff would call some units from Russia to enforce France; but that is not what Churchill wants right now. And theUS would be angry too.

---

I threw Dieppe in as another possibility - Churchill seemed to love these sort of adventures and it could spark a French/ Vichy uprising, especially if the germans become embroiled in some form of struggle in Germany.

Overall, I think the allies would seek to keep the germans off balance and exploit what happens.~:cheers:

Churchill already has a new operation against Germany on stock: GOMORRHA. It is already prepared and ready to launch. In combination with Husky - let's see how the Krauts react!

In Germany there is now a kind of hidden military government, formed by Guderian, Rommel and Manstein. Just like this story is ruled by the three K's: King Kurt, kagemusha and Kraxis. ~:joker: I wonder what strategy the other two prefer for the Russians.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

kagemusha,
I do not think that it is easy to find an agreement with US and GB - though not impossible either. You cannot say, well the Nazis were the bad guys who bombed your towns and sunk your ships, but we are German military and we are different. The best card is the fear of communism. At least Churchill does not want to have a communist European mainland. Roosevelt - I guess he does not care.
Another option is to make peace with Stalin. Although our three generals would not like that this option would increase the pressure on the US.
Please do not forget that the German military wants to have a German domination in Europe.

---

I think at this time after the Stalingrad and US joining on the war.Any field Marshall with half of brains know that the military victory for Germany is out of the question.
I believe that the most areas Germany could claim in a peace would the Eastern Prussia,Sudeten land,Elsas Lothringen and maybe that the Austria would unite with the Germany.
Our military is too stretched at the moment.We should leave from the areas that are not essential to our survival and protect the Fatherland.
Only way we can think that the Western Allies are willing to make peace with us is to make the Communist threat more scary then us.
I think we should continue the fight against Soviets.And infact i would be pleased to see a major Soviet attack against our forces at this stage.At the moment we still have the forces Germany possessed prior to the Battle of Kursk,and major Soviet attack against these forces could lead even more devastating defeat for the Soviets then our defeat against them in Stalingrad.
If they think they have impressive antitank guns,let them attack against our 88mm tank killers.:knight:

kagemusha,

1) Which areas would you give up? And what exactly would you do to make peace with the US?

2) Which option do you chose for Zhukov?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

kagemusha,

1) Which areas would you give up? And what exactly would you do to make peace with the US?

2) Which option do you chose for Zhukov?

---

1) France.The Communist coup after the withdraw of our our forces it would be more then likely that an communist coup would accur there. Also the Western Allies have no capacity in this point to immediately send in enough soldiers to take control of the area.And if they do,would they like to take the casulties for crossing the Canal and Mediterranian, under our attacks becouse they just dont want make a cease fire with us based on principle.
We would still hold Netherlands,Belgium,Denmark and Norway for stakes for better conditions in the possible peace negotations.

2) option number 1)If the Soviets assault every where they dont stand a chance. Without a concentrated attack on some weak point it will be like the wawes against a beach rock.(Notice its completely biased answer towards the Germans).~;)

1) I will think about it! I guess I have to prepare a peace offer, but first I have to install a government ~;)
2) Please try to chose what is best and mostlikely for the Russians. I want this scenario to be as plausible as possible. It is a pity that we do not have any Russian or American members on board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

1) I will think about it! I guess I have to prepare a peace offer, but first I have to install a government ~;)
2) Please try to chose what is best and mostlikely for the Russians. I want this scenario to be as plausible as possible. It is a pity that we do not have any Russian or American members on board.

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Ok Franconicus - san.~:) If i were the Russian commander i would choose the option 2) The Vatutins plan. A small class attack would not lead into big catastrophy,and if the Germans would be stupid enough they could even start an counter attack and be lured into trap.

So one vote for Rokkosovsky's plan, one vote for Vatutin and no vote for Konew.
We have not enough votes for a good democracy ~:cool:

Hmmm... Zhukov was a bright man who didn't like Stalin's idea one bit, but he did them to his best ability.

So Stalin want #1, but Zhukov is very much against that, so it is out. #2 is moer what Zhukov wants. A limited offensive to test the Germans and prepare. But here Stalin will object too much for safety.

#3 on the other hand will be so-so with both thus it is the only option Zhukov will entertain to any degree. But trouble is that it is Konev that proposed it (I would swap persons on #1 and #2, Rokossovsky was a brilliant tactician while Vatutin was more classical Russian), and Zhukov wasn't too keen on him.

#3 it has to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Hmmm... Zhukov was a bright man who didn't like Stalin's idea one bit, but he did them to his best ability.

So Stalin want #1, but Zhukov is very much against that, so it is out. #2 is moer what Zhukov wants. A limited offensive to test the Germans and prepare. But here Stalin will object too much for safety.

#3 on the other hand will be so-so with both thus it is the only option Zhukov will entertain to any degree. But trouble is that it is Konev that proposed it (I would swap persons on #1 and #2, Rokossovsky was a brilliant tactician while Vatutin was more classical Russian), and Zhukov wasn't too keen on him.

#3 it has to be.

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Excellent analysis. So its 1 : 1: 1. Hope we get another vote or the war is over before the Zhukov has made up his mind ~:mecry:

So now we have one vote for each.Who is going to give the decisive vote?:duel:
Edit:GAH!Franc beated me.~:mecry:

No I didn't!
Maybe you should take a look at the map. I think the strategic plan is very important. So we better think twice (or threetimes) ~:cheers: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Karte_Ukraine.png

You are right.~:cheers: Here is a link that shows the Kursk Operation and also almost the whole Eastern Front in 1943.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:E...to_1943-08.png

Quote:

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Konew’s plan: Cutting off the entire Heeresgruppe! Stalin will love this plan. It would defeat the Germans at the southern area completely and open the door to Romania. This could end the war. But isn’t this too daring?

---

Stalin would leap at this plan. He would see it as a second Uranus and would likely be giddy (not often do I describe dictators as giddy) at how a victory like that would look. And since it is Stalin's decision, #3.

Thank you JimBob, you really saved my day ~:cheers:
It's good to have an American on board. Maybe you can help us with the next question?

So after a strong finish number three made it: Konew's plan. So let's give Zhukov a break to think about the details. We have to fix some details before the fighting can start again:


THE NEW GERMAN GOVERNMENT

Just a couple of hours after Himmler’s death you arrive. You talk with Guderian and Rommel. You are very satisfied with the situation so far. In fact it is just the three of you that rule the country now. July 2nd you have a meeting of the new formed government formed:

Goebbels, pro forma Kanzler
Guderian, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
von Manstein, Commander-in-Chief East, responsible for the operations against Russia
Rommel, Commander-in-Chief West, responsible for all fronts against the western allies
Galland, Commander of the Luftwaffe
Dönitz, Großadmiral of the Kriegsmarine
Speer, Armament Minister
Ameluxen, Interior Minister
Adenauer, Foreign Minister
Graf Schwerin von Krosigk, Finance Minister

Rudolf Amelunxen and Konrad Adenauer are former members of the Zentrum party. Adenauer has excellent connections to the Vatican and to the Ford Motor Company.

Guderian opens the first meeting. He explains the goals: Keep the order, install a constitutional state, end the war against the US and GB, defeat the Soviets and install a German state in the borders of 1939.

He shortly summarizes the activities since Hitler’s death. The leaders of the putsch are arrested; the structures of the SS are battered. The next steps will be the execution of the SS as a political organization.

Rommel and you report of the situation at the fronts. You estimate that the Russians will soon attack with the emphasis at the south.

Rommel talks about the threat of an Allied landing in the next of weeks. Possible targets are Greece, Italy or Southern France.

Dönitz describes the naval situation. The Med is under control of the western allies. The big surface ships cannot operate any longer. Radar technology and very long range planes made the losses of the submarines raise dramatically, while their successes are decreasing. He ordered to stop the fighting until new improved submarine types are available. Only a small number is currently attacking ‘soft spots’.

Galland’s analysis of the air war is not pleasant. The Luftwaffe is in defense everywhere. The losses in Africa and in Russia are devastating. At no front the Luftwaffe is able to keep initiative. And Germany will soon have to face a new Allied offensive over the home territory. The Luftwaffe is not prepared for this challenge. Galland demands to put a strong focus on the fighter production. The bombing of GB leads to nothing. Resources must be taken from the bombers. You contradict. You need more support on the Russian battle ground. But Galland insists: If we do not try to get back the domination in the air now, we will loose it forever. Speer and Rommel support his position. Galland also says that he is enthused by the new jet fighter of Messerschmidt. This is the weapon to stop the Allied bomber armadas. One jet will be worth 4 conventional fighters.

Speer promises to increase the production of tanks and planes. His target is a 50% increase in 1943 and the same in 1944. This will include new technology weapons like the Tiger or Panther tank. The Me262 had already its start of production. Other weapons are in development.

To increase the production Speer demands support to reach his goals. Massive bomb raids at day must be prevented. Additionally he needs hundred thousands of slave labors.

Adenauer gives an overview of the external situation. Stalingrad has damaged the image of Germany. Istanbul finally decided not to join the war against Russia. Should the Germans loose Crimea they might even join the Allies.

The situation in Rumania is very critical. The government there will probably try to make peace with Russia in case Germany looses Crimea. Hungary and Finland are still on our side. Adenauer will meet the ambassadors tomorrow. Manstein offers to visit Romania on his way back. He will ensure the Romanian leader that he will keep beat the Soviets.

Italy is most critical. The government of Mussolini is not strong. Further more the Duce is capricious and may try to make peace himself. The Italian army is neither willing nor able to fight the Western Allies. Two German divisions are currently supporting the Italian troops at Sicily: The Panzerdivision ‘Hermann Göring’ and a Panzergrenadierdivision. General Student concentrated 20,000 paratroops in the surroundings of Rome. Since last night Student and his men control Rome and the Italian government.

At the first meeting you make some important decisions:

1. Gestapo and SD will be suspended. The SS will convert to a military organization. All members get a military training by the Wehrmacht and will be integrated in new SS divisions. Most of the grades will come from the Wehrmacht. The SS divisions will be integrated completely in the Wehrmacht organization.
2. All prisons including the KZ will be under control of the Interior Minister. For a period the Wehrmacht will guard the prisoners and take care of food and medical care.
3. All executions have to be approved by the Interior Minister. Excluded are all convictions from the military courts.
4. Manstein will prepare a defensive operation to stop the foreseeable Russian invasion. The eastern front has priority. The goal is a decisive victory against the Russians and a good defensive line for the winter. Then troops will be released for other fronts.
5. Rommel will hold off any operations of the allies in the Med. He will also assure that the Italian government stays at the side of Germany.
6. The submarines will return to their bases and the bomb raids against GB will be stopped at once. The fighters will continue to repel Allies’ bomber raids.
7. The production of tanks and planes will be increased. Speer promises an increase of at least 50% in 1943 and in 1944.
8. The production of fighters and the training of fighter pilots have priority. The production of the Me262 will be accelerated. The organization for an effective home defense will be implemented at once.
9. A peace offer will be prepared. Diplomatic contacts will be built up to London and Washington immediately.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

WAR vs. BUSINESS

While the new German government starts to work the President of the United States meets representatives of the industry. The delegation is composed of Thomas J. Watson, IBM and President of the International Chamber of Commerce, ‘General’ William S. Knudson, former GM, now member of the National Defense Advisory Commission, Alfred Pritchard Sloan, Jr. (GM), Walter C. Teagle (Standard Oil), Prescott Bush and Henry Ford (Ford Motor Company). These men represent the biggest American industry companies.
Sloan starts the talking: ‘Mister President, first of all let me thank you that you for greeting us. You know all of us and know that we are strong American patriots. You know that we did the best we could to supply our boys with the equipment they need to fight fascism. We asked for this meeting because we all are concerned of the latest development in Europe and we would like to offer the government our advice and support to react in an appropriate way. But before we start the conversation please let me give you the best regards from Mr. Rockefeller. He shares our concerns and supports our visit.’
Roosevelt looks surprised: “Well, gentlemen, I thank you for your offer. What exactly are your concerns?”
Ford piped out: “The new situation in Europe. Hitler is dead. Isn’t it time to adjust the American foreign policy? We think that there is a good chance to come to an agreement with the German government. Most of the Germans are not mad fascists but reasonable businessmen. So I guess there should be a way to end this crazy war. Of course the Germans are worried about communism. But who would not in their position? I always thought that it was wrong for the US to support stalinism.”
Knudson cuts in on him: ‘’Ford wants to say that destroying Germany may not be the best strategy for America now. If Germany accepts a Europe of free and democratic nations and a free market, why should be bomb them? Do not forget that Germany is a strong bastion against communism, Mr. President. So why weaken them? If we find an arrangement with the Germans we could easily control the Soviets and we could concentrate our military efforts on Japan“.

“Germany would have to proof that it wants to return to a democracy of cause, Mr. President. And it would have to make concessions regarding the conquered territory. But an agreement is feasible. We could help you to contact the right persons at Berlin. It would be honor to serve our country this way”.
“Gentlemen, thank you all for your visit! I will think about your offer. If I made up my mind I will tell!”
What is Roosevelt going to do?

1. Keep on fighting until the unconditional surrender of Germany.
2. Listen to the advice, contact the Germans and send them the conditions for peace negotiations.
3. Wait until the situation is clearer and, first of all, consult Churchill and Stalin.

No truck with these appeasers - press on for unconditional surrender. Twice in the last 30 years the germans have thrown Europe in to choas with their militaristic ambitions, why let them off the hook now. Germany and Russia can exhaust themselves in the east and the US has a massive market they can dominate with their untouched economy while Europe's shattered economy will be totally reliant on the US for recovery. 40 years after the war ends every body will drink Coke a cola (hang on isn't that what happened in real life???) Twice this century Americans have had to die in Europe to solve its problems, to leave a strong Germany risks coming back again.~:cheers:

I think the Tycoons have a point.But my answer will be number 3). At the moment US is still at war with the Germany and we should not send separate peace offerings without GB and other Western Allies knowing about it.We should contact Churchill and other Western allies leaders maybe in a secret meeting. At the moment we should also try to keep Stalin under the belief that everything is going as promised. In a military side we should postpone any major operations before the situation clears up. We should also contact someone in the German government secretly,so we could really find out whats happening there.
Incase that the Germans are turning away from facism,we should really think who is the bigger threat Germany without Nazi leadership or the communist dictatorship of Soviet Union.
If the German government is willing to pull back in the 1939 borders in the West and shows it can stop the Soviet attacks against it.it would really make sense to make peace with them. US wouldn not have to send more of its troops in Europe.We could concentrate on Fighting of The Japanese. And our indystry could make sure that the Germans and their Eastern allies can keep Europe free from communism.As i stated before What is worse a strong Germany in the Middle Europe or Soviet Empire in the Eastern Europe?

The situation is changed from 39... Germany will not have a 'we were stabbed in the back' excuse for a new war, in fact she will be allowed to fight her war to the end (against the SU). This is a prudent direction of power... And it is controlled by the Allies, it can't be any more perfect than this. Fascism is 'dead' and communism has certainly not strengthened. Western ideas will prevail if Germany can become a democracy again.

#3, Churchill needs to be in, besides Roosevelt wouldn't do any major deal without talking to him at least. If anything Mr. R. was a personal person, he believed in personal relations, thus Churchill needs to be contacted.
The trouble is Stalin... Roosevelt was not too distant from him, sure he was a leader of communism but Roosevelt again tried to play the personal card, and Stalin jumped at it, securing a lot in return.
I think he lacked the cynicism to ignore Stalin, but this time I think all his advisors will be able to pull him away.

I would suggest that you consult Churchill, but leave Stalin in the cold. Baring that, #3. The German military seems to be throwing off it's tradition apoltical stance, and it seems to be in the Wests favor. Who knows, maybe Germany will become a democracy, which, with the support of the military, would be most stable. Maybe make that a condition for peace? The drafting of a democratic constitution. Cease fire, of a sort, until then.

Hmmm, maybe Manstein will set up that backhand blow?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by discovery1

Hmmm, maybe Manstein will set up that backhand blow?

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Shhhh... Don't expose my little plan here.~;) ~D

So most of you want peace talks. At least one success for Manstein! But that leads to a couple of other questions:

1. What would be the requirements of Roosevelt for making peace?
2. What would be the requirements of Churchill?
(I know very well the position of the Germans and I can guess what Stalin wants!)

3. Include Stalin
3.a. Yes
3.b. No
3.c. Churchill and Roosevelt wouldn`t care if Germany goes on fighting the Soviets.

4. Postpone the attacks on Sicily and the bombing?
4.1. Yes.
4.2 No. Proceed as planned
4.3 Increase the attacks! This will show the Krauts that they have no other option than to do what the Western Allies want.

I know a lot of questions. Maybe I can give you the next chapter tomorrow!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

So most of you want peace talks. At least one success for Manstein! But that leads to a couple of other questions:

1. What would be the requirements of Roosevelt for making peace?
2. What would be the requirements of Churchill?
(I know very well the position of the Germans and I can guess what Stalin wants!)

3. Include Stalin
3.a. Yes
3.b. No
3.c. Churchill and Roosevelt wouldn`t care if Germany goes on fighting the Soviets.

4. Postpone the attacks on Sicily and the bombing?
4.1. Yes.
4.2 No. Proceed as planned
4.3 Increase the attacks! This will show the Krauts that they have no other option than to do what the Western Allies want.

I know a lot of questions. Maybe I can give you the next chapter tomorrow!

---

Well, I know I want to see Stalin left out in the cold. Hell, maybe even send the Jerrys weapons if they keep fighting the Sovs. And I know Churchill would be happy to let the Sovs and Jerrys keep fighting.

The others

1)Well, the recreation of states in the west. Almost certainly democratic ones. Also possibly a free Eastern Europe, although that won't happen as long as Jerry is fighting a war with the Russkies. Maybe even a constitutional gov in Germany.

2)Hmmm. Probably something harsh.

4)Hmmm. I don't want the Jerrys weakened in their fight against the Russkies. And maybe they would take it as a sign of good faith maybe. Manstein is a fairly honorable chap, yes?

No one ese is replying...

I guess I'd better answer Churchills reqs.
Hmmm, Definitely pull out of Western Europe and Italy. Maybe Greece and Yugo too. Guarantee free and open elections in parts of Eastern Europe that have been occupied by Germany postwar. AND NO PEACE WITH THE SOVIETS! DEATH TO COMMUNISM!

Oh, and Churchill may also want some looks at Germany's lattest goodies, or at least the Me262.

Has the killing of 'undiserables' stopped? It seems to me that you don't make that clear in the latest post.

1. Gestapo and SD will be suspended. The SS will convert to a military organization. All members get a military training by the Wehrmacht and will be integrated in new SS divisions. Most of the grades will come from the Wehrmacht. The SS divisions will be integrated completely in the Wehrmacht organization.
2. All prisons including the KZ will be under control of the Interior Minister. For a period the Wehrmacht will guard the prisoners and take care of food and medical care.
3. All executions have to be approved by the Interior Minister. Excluded are all convictions from the military courts.

Undesireables? If you mean SS leaders, Gestapo and all those criminals - not yet. Regarding KZ - Jews, politlcal criminals (beside Nazis) - yes. All prisons are now guarded by Wehrmacht soldiers. They guanrantee food and medical care. And they are under the control of the Interior Minister, a democrat. However, they are still not free!

'Manstein is a fairly honorable chap, yes?'
Manstein is still in the fog. :hide: He is just leader of the easern armies. Kanzler is Goebbels!

Quote:

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Undesireables? If you mean SS leaders, Gestapo and all those criminals - not yet. Regarding KZ - Jews, politlcal criminals (beside Nazis) - yes. All prisons are now guarded by Wehrmacht soldiers. They guanrantee food and medical care. And they are under the control of the Interior Minister, a democrat. However, they are still not free!

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K. thanks. I saw the part about food and medicine and changing of the guards, but didn't interpret that to mean that the killing had stopped. Even Autzwitz had a medical bay for the prisoners, not very good but there was one.

Quote:

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Manstein is still in the fog. He is just leader of the easern armies. Kanzler is Goebbels!

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Oh, right. Don't know much about Goebbels, other than he has a wife and a lot of kids. The wife dated a promonent zionist for a while, btw.

I think we have to be careful that we don't judge events with the benefit of hindsight of what happened after the war - ie the cold war etc. We have to view it in the circumstances of the time. Why should the allies - ie UK and USA suddenly change sides and throw in with the Germans against the Soviets. Germany has been waging a savage war against all of Europe for nearly 4 years, their horrendious treatment of the occupied countries and the Jews is already well known and all will remember that the Prussian Militaristic tradition which has taken over from Hitler was the driving force behind WW1 and every town in England has a memorial to that folly. Manstein's actions are those of a desparate man who knows he and Germany are loosing, so like a desparate football club chairman, they have sacked the manager and now hope that every thing is all right. The no conditional surrender stance adopted by the Allies was based on sound political reasoning - they wanted to ensure Germany was completely beaten and that it's militaristic stance was completely smashed. The UK and USA were no doubt worried about Communism, but were happy to see the Germans and Soviets exhausting themselves in their struggle on the Easten front.

So my stance remains the same - the Allies would not take the foot off the pedal, but would press home the advantage where ever they saw the opportunity - a strong Germany means more trouble in the future, and I am sure they would grab any opportunity to beat Germany into surrender. Churchill had his opportunity for peace with Germany to let them fight Communism in 1940 and he choose to fight on when all looked hopeless - so why should he give up now, when Germany is on the ropes.~:cheers:

The question is, what are the Allies fighting for, isn't it? The answer may not be the same for the UK and the US.

As far as I see (but please correct me if I am wrong)

- Churchill does not want to have a fascist Germany
- He does not want to have a German domination
- He wants to have balance in Europe
- He wants to make sure that there will not be a WW2
- He wants to keep the British Empire as a dominant power in the world
- He does not want to have an increased Soviet influence

- Roosevelt wants to secure Britains independance
- end fascism
- make the US the dominant power
- increase the power of the US industry
- avoid losses of American life
- maybe somekind of UN under US dominance to avoid further WWs.
- a cooperation with the Soviets

- Stalin wants to get his country back
- revenge
- control of central Europe to secure his empire
- being recongnized as equal partner of GB and the US

Franconicus

Seems on the money to me - maybe we need a similar list for the Germans - or is their wish simply to stop the war because they see nothing but defeat in the long run. Trouble is - in the words of Basil Faulty - "you started it, you invaded Poland"

The more I think about this, the more difficult Manstein's position is. To preserve Germany, he needs to return to 1939 borders, "say sorry" - ie massive demilitarisation, disbanding of most his armies, some form of justice for the victims of German aggression and oppression and some form of economic redress - but learning the lessons of post 1918. But this is probably too much for him or anybody to do - from a tradition point of view and the inevietable opposition from the significant portions of Germany who still believe in their invincability. Also would that be enough for the Allies?

Perhaps Manstien needs a significant gesture to back up his position - how about giving up Italy? - It doesn't have a great strategic use - as opposed to say Romania with its oil - and there is a natural defensive line along the Italian border. Also, the power vacuum and resulting chaos might distract the Allies for some time.~:cheers:

Right!

This could be the position of Germany based on the assumption that the war is not lost.
1) Germany wants to have a peace.
2) Germany should verted into a democracy, a moderate one. One man one vote, but with limitations for the smaller parties and laws against radical groups esp. communists. Maybe even a kind of 'House of the Lords'?
3) Territorial aspects: Keep Austria, this is German! Keep Sudetenland, as it is German too. Get the territories in Poland that were lost in WW1. Maybe Poland can get some compensation. Maybe a weak claim on Elsac and Lothrain. You could ask the people there.
4) Keep the other nations in the east and southeast as small as possible. Insist on the right of every nation to have a state. Esp. the Balticum, Balcan, Slowakia ...

Lessons learned from WW1: That is an issue for the allies too! What are their lessons learned? Kill as many Germans as possible and then reduce industry to a 3rd world country? Not good for exports! Weaken them, demilitarize them - not good for a strong democracy. Did not work after WW1.

So what is the vision of Churchill? I know he would not have mind if all Germans were killed, but I guess he would not have been pleased with Central Europe being empty and open fot the Sovites.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

So most of you want peace talks. At least one success for Manstein! But that leads to a couple of other questions:

1. What would be the requirements of Roosevelt for making peace?
2. What would be the requirements of Churchill?
(I know very well the position of the Germans and I can guess what Stalin wants!)

3. Include Stalin
3.a. Yes
3.b. No
3.c. Churchill and Roosevelt wouldn`t care if Germany goes on fighting the Soviets.

4. Postpone the attacks on Sicily and the bombing?
4.1. Yes.
4.2 No. Proceed as planned
4.3 Increase the attacks! This will show the Krauts that they have no other option than to do what the Western Allies want.

I know a lot of questions. Maybe I can give you the next chapter tomorrow!

---

Ok.Here are my answers:

1. I think that the main consern for US is to get peace in Europe and to secure its markets there.

2.For Churchill,during this war the GB have realized the power of US and they will shift their main alliance from France to US,no matter the outcome of the war.So basicly if the Germany can make peace with the US.GB will come along.The best way to assure US of Germanys intentions would be to resingn the alliance with Japan.

3.) option c) We still have to remember that GB and France were very close of declaring war to Soviet Union on Winter 1940,because of the Soviet war against Finland. Also the first reaction from US in the start of Operation Barbarossa,was not very shocked at all. We have to remember that we are not talking about which country likes witch but these are real politics.Cold calculations.

4. option 1. We have to know what is happening. If germany would just retreat from every where what would that do to political balance of the Europe?Do we want to have an Soviet occupation on whole of the Eastern Europe,if Germany is ready to pull of from Western Europe. What about the Northern Europe?

There are lot of tough questions there.As from the Western Alied point of wiev.If we have an option to stop the war with the Axis and regain the territory that Germany have occupied without fighting it back.Why should we not take that option.If Germany would continue to fight the Soviets, they would not have the resources to attack the Western Europe again. We have to remember that Germans have not invaded most of the Eastern Europe.Infact those countries are their allies.And about the Poland.Also Soviet Union invaded Poland. And the Baltics,Romania and Finland before the Operation Barbarossa. How i see this,this is the perfect opportunity to control the Soviet ambience without declaring war to them.Also we can control the Germany because they cant go on fighting Soviets without our industrys help for a long time. The best possible outcome from this could be that the Soviets and the Germans exhaust them selves fighting eachothers and finally leave the Western allies as the most powerfull factor in the Europe.:bow:

PREPARATONS

4th July. Now that the situation at home is stable you fly back to Russia to meet all commanders of the Heeresgruppen, Luftflotten, armies and squadrons in the east.

“Gentlemen, you all received new orders in the last days and most of you may be confused. Well let me explain our plan.

We expect the Russians to attack soon, maybe within the next two weeks. The Russians have most of their troops at the Kursk area, so most probably they will attack at the seam of HGr. Mitte and HGr. Süd. There is little doubt that the center of the attack will be in the south. Please do not cherish any illusion – the Soviets will want to bring about a decision and they will carry everything they have to the south.

The main shock armies will be the Central Front, the Woronesch Front and the Steppe Front. Central and Woronesch have in total 1.3 million soldiers, 3,400 armored vehicles and 19,000 guns and grenade launchers. Steppe is weaker. They have 600,000 men, 1,200 tanks and 9,000 guns. These three fronts are supported by 2,400 planes.

As you see the Russians are strong, at least at numbers. That should not worry us much. We know that our tanks are better. If the new models and the modifications of the old model IV keep the promises the advantage of the Russians is compensated. We have a remarkable lack of infantry, especially mobile divisions, and a lack of artillery, especially heavy guns. The Russians have a huge advantage in ATGs.

We must keep in mind the Russians have better weapons and equipments than during the last years. Their moral is good and the commanders of the fronts are very experienced. However, most of the units come straight off the training camps and the soldiers and the lower ranks have never seen a battle before.

In the air the Russian dominance is not that big. We should be able to cancel this.

The strategic goal of this operation is the destruction of the Russian offensive armies in the south. This should give the new government the leeway to find a diplomatic solution.

The name of the operation is ‘Catalaunian’. It is divided in several phases. Phase 1 is operation Goth, the redeployment of our armies to the Gothenwall.

I want to thank General Kluge and General Model for the excellent planning of operation Goth. Model will give you now details.”

“Thank you, Feldmarschall! Gentlemen, let me start with some changes of the organisation. The commander of the 2nd Army is the new military governor of Ukraine. For the upcoming operations the 2nd Army will be under my command. The army will get some reinforcements: Two Romanian divisions, which will form together with the 1st Hungarian the XXXI. Army Corps. Additionally it gets the XX. Army Corps of the 9th Army.

Operation Goth consists three steps:

1. Shortening of our position. Currently 4th army is clearing Bryansk. The retreat of Charkow bow is prepared. 1st Tank Army and 6th Army will retreat to the Gothenwall as soon as there is a Soviet attack.
2. This releases our tank formations and we will pull them back. I know that our lines are very thin then.
3. Finally all our armies will take their positions at the Gothenwall.

I know that this is a very complex operation. Discipline and mobility are the key to success. Be aware that the Russian will attack you during your manoeuvre with superior tank and air force units.

You find the complete operational plan on your desk. Do you have any questions so far?”

Mackensen, commander of the 1st Tank Army: “Model, do you really think we can execute this manoeuvre while the Russians attack?”

“Yes, although I know it will be tough. But some units are already on the way and we have probably another two weeks before the Russians attack. I know it will be tough but if you get in trouble Army Group will find a way to quarry you out!”

“Why do you think we can beat the Soviets? They have so much more tanks and armored vehicles than ever before. Their divisions are fully motorized with brand new American trucks.”

Manstein stands up and smiles: “That is right! That will lead to their disaster!”

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Finally Zhukov has made up his mind. If the Germans are in confusion and starting to retreat then it is time for a massive and decisive strike.

On July 9th he presents his plan to Stalin and the Stavka:

“These are the Fronts that will participate at the operations:

Bryansk Front (Gen. Popow)
Former Central Front (Gen. Rokossovsky) renamed to Belarusian Front
Former Voronesz Front (Gen. Vatutin) renamed to 1. Ukrainian Front
Former Steppe Front (Gen. Konew) renamed to 2. Ukrainian Front
Former Southwestern Front (Gen. Malinowski) renamed to 3. Ukrainian Front
Former Southern Front (Gen. Talbuchin) renamed to 4. Ukrainian Front
North Caucasus Front (Gen. Petrow)

Goal of this operation is to destroy the German tank reserves, to encircle the HGr. Süd and HGr. A, to liberate the Ukraine and Belarus and to reach the western borders of the USSR.
The objectives are Gomel, Kiev, and Odessa.

The Fronts are renamed according to their objectives. Belarusian Front and 1. Ukrainian Front will start the invasion. Once they break through the German lines the 2. Ukrainian will join the attack and take Sumy. These three strong fronts operating behind the German lines will force the Germans to deploy their reserves. So two weeks after the beginning of the operation a big tank battle is expected north of Sumy. At the same time Bryansk Front in the north and 3. Ukrainian Front in the south will join the attack and break through the German lines too. Once the German tank divisions are destroyed Belarusian and 1. Ukrainian Front will march towards Kiev. 2. Ukrainian will cross the Dnjepr at Tcherkassy. Bryansk Front will cover the northern front and march towards Gomel. 3. Ukrainian will attack Charkow and then march to Dnjepropetrowsk. It will cover the southern flank. 4. Ukrainian will attack as soon as the German try to withdraw the 6. Armee. They will besiege Stalino. North Caucasus will put the German forces at the Kuban under pressure. Air armies and Black Sea Fleet will support the operations.

In a second phase we start to cut off the German southern army groups. 1. and 2. Ukrainian will go south to reach the Black Sea at Odessa. Belarus will cover their northern flank. 3. Ukrainian will meet 4. Ukrainian at Saporischja. Then 3. will march along the northern border of the Dnjepr to reach Cherson. 4. will march along the southern border with the same objective. North Caucasus will execute naval landings at Crimea and Odessa. Once this is done the complete German right wing is sacked.

Stalin listens to the explanations of Zhukov. Although he does not understand all the details of the plan he realizes that - if the operations are successful – the Germans will loose big parts of their armies and he will get back White Russia and the Ukraine. “What is about the north? Don’t we attack there, too?”

“No”, Zhukov replies, “once the German forces in the south are crashed their northern position will collapse all by themselves. We will be able to disperse them easily. Our plan can only succeed if we focus our armies at the left wing.”
“When will the operations start?”
“July 18th. The units need time to reach their positions.”
“All right! What will be the name of this operation?”
“Kutusow!”

Stalin is pleased with Zhukov’s suggestions and accepts them. ”Zhukov, I want you to coordinate the attack of Belarus, 1st and 2nd Ukrainian. You are responsible for the success. The other fronts will be steered by Stavka.

After the meeting Stalin talks to General Timoshenkov: “The Americans and the British suspended their deliveries. They pretend to have logistic problems. We have to consider that the Anglo-Americans might change sides. I want you to make a plan for this. You know we need all troops to fight the fascists now. But we can prepare everything to fight the other imperialists too.”

Now Zhukov has to take care about the tactical details of the operation. From recon reports he sees that the Germans have at least two lines of defense. At least the first one seems to be quite thin. Many positions are filled by Hungarians and Romanians. The reports tell that there are still many transports from east to west.

How are the Russians starting their attack?

1. After artillery fire attack with tanks and infantry. So they will easily break through the German lines.
2. Attack with infantry and artillery only. That is enough. In case that there is a German counterstrike or some German tanks the air force will do close support. The tanks will be needed as soon as the Russians broke through.

Number 1). Attack against prepared fortified defensive line.Combined arms attack.Ok now the show is starting.~;)

#1

That is the usual Russian doctrine. Employ the strongest attack right away, unless topography and such are in the way of the tanks.
The Russians got 'scared' when they suffered those impossible losses eariler in the war by using infantry supported by artillery. They know that tanks lessens the losses for the attacker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

Number 1). Attack against prepared fortified defensive line.Combined arms attack.Ok now the show is starting.~;)

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Sorry, kagemusha san, Here is a short cesura before we can start ~;)

HUSKY AND THE PEACE PLAN

July 14th. Red carpet rolled out at your HQ. Guderian and Galland come to visit. They want to get information about the upcoming fights at the eastern front and want to discuss news from home.

You tell them the preparations are in schedule. You received a Soviet radio massage giving a code word to the partisans. You expect the Soviet operation within a week.

Guderian tells you about the allied landing at Sicily. They have a huge advantage in numbers, especially in planes and ships. Italian navy did not fight at all. Most army units run. The German Panzerdivision and Panzergrenadierdivision stopped the chaos and are now retreating to the mainland. Even though the invasion could not be prevented things are not so bad. Guderian thinks that the German troops can hold the front in southern Italy for a while. Due to Student’s paratroops the Italians are still fighting. Kesselring is the new commander for Italy.

After all the loss of Sicily is not a severe disaster. A landing at Greece would have been worse because it would have affected the eastern front directly. So Guderian can even remove the 1. Panzerdivision from Greece and send it to Russia.

Italians will retreat their army from Balkan. German mountain infantry will replace them with Russian auxiliaries and Bulgarians.

In the Reich the situation is under control. The SS is disbanded. Berger did a good job. 432 former SS members were executed immediately. More than 7,000 were captured. Guderian finally had to stop the operation. The captured were pardoned. They are now in so called probation companies and have the chance to redeem them. Half of them is on the way to Naples, the rest is on the transport to Kiev.

The KZ guards were replaced by Wehrmacht’s units. They are on the way to the front, too. They will reinforce Hausser’s SS Corps.

Berger is now leading the transformation of all other SS formations to combat units. In six weeks the first units will be sent to the front.

Ameluxen is busy reorganizing the police. He is trying to get as many former officers as possible. The situation in the KZ is worse than expected. Wehrmacht now tries to give every prisoner enough food and medical care. All work has been stopped.

This of course is a problem for Speer. He already has a severe lack of workers. Guderian and you decide that the POWs of the upcoming operation should be asked whether they volunteer for work in Germany or for the Russian Liberation Army.

Adenauer prepared a peace initiative to end the war with the Anglo American. This is the agenda:

1. The war of the Western civilizations is a misery for all nations. It does not make any sense to continue now that the Nazis are gone. For the sake of all nations it should be stopped at once. The new German government has a vision of a Europe of free nations based on the right of self-determination.
2. Reparations: There will be no repressions or humiliations that may result in a new war. The big war nations Germany, Italy, Poland, GB, France and the US will neither demand nor receive any reparations. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Rumania, Serbia, Croatia and Greece will get reparations. These will be paid from both sides (Allied and Axis) 50% each.
3. Poland: Germany will keep the frontiers they had in 1914. As compensation Poland will get parts of the former USSR. Poland may not ally with any nation if this alliance is a threat to Germany. Poland will accept the transit and deployment of Axis troops as long as the war against the USSR is ongoing.
4. France: France keeps its old borders and colonies. Only in Alsace and Lorraine there will be plebiscites.
5. Austria is and will remain part of Germany.
6. Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Albanians get their own national states.
7. Germany proposes to found an European Alliance
 to adjust future conflicts,
 to create more wealth through a common economy,
 to fight communism

Guderian wants to have a media campaign showing the crimes of the Nazis. If this is done he will disband the NSDAP and fill all political positions with members of former democratic parties. Goebbels will resign. He will do it if Guderian guarantees him safety and exemption from punishment. Then a big victory against the Soviets and the peace initiative will be send to Roosevelt and Churchill.

So once more it is evident that the victory in the east is the main precondition for the success.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

WASHINGTON AND LONDON

Media celebrate the successful landing in Sicily. Undefined sources of the White House are quoted. They say that war in Europe will soon be over. Roosevelt will soon find an agreement with Germany.
The papers praise Roosevelt’s wise strategy and call him the greatest president of all times.

Stalin sends a letter to Roosevelt and Churchill. He congratulates to their successful landing. He is very impressed of the naval superior in the Med and expresses his hopes that the landing in France will follow soon.

He also reminds the western leaders that the Black Sea is Soviet sphere and that activities of the western allies in this area would not be according to the alliance.

The Allies aren't going to agree to that, but hey, to get what you want you have to aim higher from the outset.

Which parts do you think they wont agree to?

2, 3 and 4... They will need to be tweaked at the very least.

They don't want to make it so that it payed off for Germany to have gone to war like this. Effectively it is peace that says Germany won.

I think we can find an arrangement about 2 and 4. Isn't 3 an opportunity for Poland. Maybe better than things went in reality?

I agree with Kraxis. This is something we can start with.I think that the Allies demand that Germany have to pay for the GB,France and the Occupied Countries compensations.
I also think that the whole Poland situation should not be concluded in the peace process because Poland is also in war with Soviet Union.( A smart Stategig move would be to try to make a ceparate cease fire with the Polish.That would leave the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in a difficult situation in their relationships).
As for Austria, this would be a good time to show that the new German leadership is found on democracy.We could promise the Western Allies that the Austrians could vote whether they want to be a part of the Germany.If the cease fire is signed.~;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

As for Austria, this would be a good time to show that the new German leadership is found on democracy.We could promise the Western Allies that the Austrians could vote whether they want to be a part of the Germany.If the cease fire is signed.~;)

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Actually they already did that with the Anschluss... It might not be very well known but those elections were 'fair'. What wasn't fair was how the election was forced onto the Austrian government with threats and how the Nazis were rather aggressive in the street prior to the election, but they were comparably silent on the night itself (by the standards of the day, even by other Western standards, it was a quiet election).

I don't think the Allies might be that inclined to try to get money out of Germany, but they will not want to pay for what Germany did. So Germany will have to pay the lesser countries itself. Since Germany actually rebuilt France and the Allies haven't bombed it back to the Stone Age yet there is little more than pride to go for there. One could say that Germany has already paid France (the French will of course object strongly but are of little consequence and are in general ignored in these cases).

3 isn't much of an opportunity for Poland really as the areas in the SU that could rightly be considered Polish are vastly smaller than the areas lost to Germany. The 1914 borders would be almost over Warsaw and the entire Polish industrial capacity would be lost as well. The Poles would not go for this.
A fairer claim would be to demand a referendum, the Germans in Poland still remain and few new Germans have moved in yet. This would likely result in the Danzig sector falling to Germany and some limited gains along the southern border. This would satisfy both German and Polish demands to an extent. Poland gain a lot in the east and loses fairly insignificant areas in the west.
This should of course be offered up on the second round as a "we have made a compromise, now it is your turn."

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Originally Posted by kagemusha

I agree with Kraxis. This is something we can start with.I think that the Allies demand that Germany have to pay for the GB,France and the Occupied Countries compensations.
I also think that the whole Poland situation should not be concluded in the peace process because Poland is also in war with Soviet Union.( A smart Stategig move would be to try to make a ceparate cease fire with the Polish.That would leave the Western Allies and the Soviet Union in a difficult situation in their relationships).

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Clever! One problem is that there is no Polish partner for those negotiations. Doesn't the Polish government sit at London. Of course Germans could install one, same will Soviets do. But the Allies would never respect a seperate peace treaty. Like they ignored the ceasefire between Germany and Vichy!

kagemusha, the German government discussed your proposal regarding giving up territory to show good will all night long. Retreating from Italy would lead to nothing. Italy is not occupied country but more an ally. So German troops in Italy are surely not a root for this war. Giving up France? Petain would gain control but the Allies would attack him soon and his army would change sides. So as a result the Allies would rapidly stand at the Rhine. And the war would have been lost.
Giving up Poland would be a strong sign, because that is the main reason for this war. But how can that be done as long as the German armies are in the middle of Russia?
So leaving Russia is the only option. But before the government makes this desicion it has to think twice about it!

KUTUSOW

July 22nd, briefing at the HQ of Vatutin, commander of the 1. Ukrainian Front. Zhukov stands in front of his Front Commanders: “Comrades, let me give you Stalin’s congratulations to the successful opening of Kutusow. Konstantin, can you give me more details about the progress of the operation of Belarus and 1st Ukrainian?”
“Yes, comrade Zhukov! As you know it started to rain at July 17th. Due to this and the bad condition of the streets not all units and equipment reached their positions in time. But the rain also covered our preparations and helped us to take the Germans by surprise.
The operation was opened by our air force on July 17th. It bombed Konotop, a railway station 70 km behind the front, to interrupt the German connections to the rear. As soon as night fell the partisans started their operations. They assaulted the railroad network and managed to interrupt it more than 300 times. The traffic in the whole area is still blocked. They also attacked Konotop. They managed to penetrate and there was street fighting all night long. When the new day came the partisan retreated and left a destructed and burning town. However, due to short preparation time not all groups were able to reach their operational area.

At the crack of dawn of July 18th our bombers attacked the fascistic airfields. They were very successful. They destroyed more than 200 planes. Until now there are only little activities of German planes over the battle field. However, the night before our attack the Germans bombed Kursk at sundown. They used fire bombs. They repeated their attack twice that night and the quarters near the station was aflame. The railway facilities were damaged and many depots burned down.

At 5:00 a.m. the artillery started firing. 3,000 guns joined the bombardment, including heavy artillery and Katyushas. We had managed to bring all guns in position. However, we did not have as many shells as we planned. Time for preparation was too short. So the drumfire had to end after three hours. Then 60th and 70th army of Belarus and 38th and 40th army of 1st Ukrainian started to attack at 8:15. According to the plan the infantry had close support by the tanks. They overrun the first German line of defense. Losses were low, very low. The German artillery was soon silenced by our brave ground attack aircrafts. In the afternoon we hit the second German line. After a short strike of our artillery the assault teams attacked again. This time the German resistance was much stronger. Their infantry was supported by ATGs and assault guns. We had to regroup and attacked again. At sundown we broke through. Raiding patrols kept fighting the whole night through and in the morning the German resistance collapsed completely.

The Germans are running away. Information from POWs give us a good picture of the enemy. Belarus fought the 35th Corps and 1st Ukrainian the 31st Corps. 31st was formed by Romanian and Hungarian infantry. It does not exist any longer. 35th had severe losses and is now retreating across the Desna. Prisoners told us that the Germans have orders to retreat to a so called Gothenwall.
At July 20th Belarus advanced to Glukhov and took the town. Now it is moving forward to river Desna. We will reach the river tomorrow.”
Vatutin adds: “1st Ukrainian will reach Konotop this evening. We already succeeded to advance 70 km. This will be the first objective. Our initially plan was to reach Konotop at August 16th.
In this first phase the Germans lost 30,000 men, 30 ATG and more than 200 planes. 1st Ukrainian and Belarus lost 800 men, 18 ATGs and 47 tanks. Our air armies lost 67 planes. Germans 2nd Army is on the run and not able to stop our advance.”
“Excellent”, Zhukov is pleased. “Konew, how is the 2nd Ukrainian doing?”
“We started our operations at July 20th, when the other fronts had managed to break through. We started a frontal attack on Suny. We had to fight the 13th Corps. Unlike everywhere else, there was heavy resistance and we had to clear every single street. Fighting is still going on, but we control 70% of the town now and we will clear the rest until July 24th.
Due to the heavy fighting we lost 9,000 men, 8 ATGs and 32 tanks. Germans lost some 20,000 men.”
“All three fronts did a very good job! Stalin is pleased. Before we discuss how to go on let me tell you news from the other fronts.
Germans left Orel. Popov’s Front took the chance and occupied the town. This is an outstanding success. Germans are also retreating from Belgorod and they take back the Mius front. 3rd and 4th Ukrainian follow them.
There is also news from the intelligence. Our special agent tells us that the Germans started to pull back their armies from Russia. Churchill forwarded an intelligence report telling that the Germans position big formation behind the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev. And German newspapers tell stories about a so called Gothenwall, which will protect Germany from all attacks of the Soviets.
So, comrades! This is the situation today. Now I’d like to hear your opinion how to proceed. Nikolai Fyodorovich, what do you think? ”
Vatutin thinks or a while before he answers: “Our biggest problem is not the German army or the German air force. Both are not able to slow our advance. The problem is the infrastructure. The streets in the operational area are bad, hardly sufficient for civil purpose. Now they have to carry three fronts with 2 million soldiers and thousands of tanks, trucks and guns. The railroad net is slightly better. However, after all the destructions from both sides it collapsed completely. It will take at least two weeks before it will work again.
So my proposal is to put the tank formations in front of our army groups. They can operate despite the bad streets. Let them chase the crippled 2nd Army. We can catch it before it reaches the Dnjepr.”
Rokkosovsky agrees: “Nikolai Fyodorovich is right. We must catch the 2nd Army before it reaches the Dnjepr. But what is even more important, we have to cross that river as soon as possible. Isn’t it clear that the Germans try to built a new line of defense along the Dnjepr. This must be the ‘Gothenwall’. We have to break through before they have time to entrench.
So this is my proposal. Let me and Belarus attack along the southern bank of the river Desna until we reach Kiev. Like Nikolai Fyodorovich proposed the tanks formation will advance as fast as possible while the rest follows. Let Konew’s 2nd Ukrainian do the same in the south. Let Vatutin’s 1st march slow behind the German 2nd Army. Do not put too much pressure on them. If everything goes right we can cross the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev and attack the town from the rear. Then we catch the 2nd Army, too.”
Konew disagrees: “Why do you want to change the plan? Didn’t we agree that the German tank formation would start a counterstrike if we march west? And that we have to keep our forces together to win this decisive battle? Why divert? We haven’t seen a single German tank so far. Let’s keep the armies together. Let’s have the combined force of tanks, infantry and artillery. Let us slowly move forward to Kiev. Once the German tanks are beaten we can still chase the Germans.”

What will Zhukov decide?

1) Let the tanks off the chain and chase the German 2nd Army?
2) Let the armies in the north and south speed up while Vatutin will slow his march? Try to cross the Dnjeor as fast as possible and cut off the German 2nd Army?
3) Follow Konew’s advice. Slow down the advance to keep the armies together and to be prepared to fight a German counterstrike?

What are the orders for the air armies?
a) Attack the 2nd Army and stop her retreat.
b) Support our spearheads. This includes protection, recon and support attacks.
c) Cover all edges. Fight any German plane and tank which tries to approach our armies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Adenauer prepared a peace initiative to end the war with the Anglo American. This is the agenda:

1. The war of the Western civilizations is a misery for all nations. It does not make any sense to continue now that the Nazis are gone. For the sake of all nations it should be stopped at once. The new German government has a vision of a Europe of free nations based on the right of self-determination.
2. Reparations: There will be no repressions or humiliations that may result in a new war. The big war nations Germany, Italy, Poland, GB, France and the US will neither demand nor receive any reparations. The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark, Rumania, Serbia, Croatia and Greece will get reparations. These will be paid from both sides (Allied and Axis) 50% each.
3. Poland: Germany will keep the frontiers they had in 1914. As compensation Poland will get parts of the former USSR. Poland may not ally with any nation if this alliance is a threat to Germany. Poland will accept the transit and deployment of Axis troops as long as the war against the USSR is ongoing.
4. France: France keeps its old borders and colonies. Only in Alsace and Lorraine there will be plebiscites.
5. Austria is and will remain part of Germany.
6. Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Albanians get their own national states.
7. Germany proposes to found an European Alliance
 to adjust future conflicts,
 to create more wealth through a common economy,
 to fight communism

.[/I][/B]

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Sorry - been off the last 2 days sick. Looking at the above, I thought the Germans were mean't to be loosing!! Overall, this proposal leaves a far too stronger Germany and it would not be acceptable to the West. The best plan for the US and the UK is to let the Germans and Russians slug it out and for them to pick up the pieces. Also, what about Poland. Considering that this what the UK went to war for, are they likely to accept the German puppet state that is proposed? - I don't think so. For the purposes of the story, there is nothing wrong in the Germans proposing it, but I think it would make the west more likely to dig in and hold on for unconditional surrender.

As for the russian choices - this is difficult. I think 2 for the ground forces and 3 for the air. The key is to cross the Dnjepr - this must be the basis of the German's defence. No point of going hell for leather for the German 2nd army - it is mainly their allies and poorer quality- getting over the river is key and the close support of the airforce will be the Russians eyes and shield. If the Gothenwall is compromised, the masterplan is undone. ~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Sorry - been off the last 2 days sick.

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Hope you are well now! Do you agree with the chosen Soviet tactics?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Looking at the above, I thought the Germans were mean't to be loosing!!

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In 1943 this is not so obvious. Germany still occupies most of Europe. The industrial potential is bigger than before and its main armies are still unbeaten - despite Stalingrad and Tunis. If they cannot win they will try do make a remis at least.
On the other hand: German government needs the agreement of the German public. And it has to avoid a situation like after WW1. So all critical issues have to be solved - especially with Poland.
Poland has a very difficult future. 1939 has shown that an alliance with France and Britain will not save the country if it is attacked by Germany or Russia. So it has to ally with one of both. Not an easy choice.
Germany has to avoid that Poland allies with Russia or with France. So it will be very difficult to find a stable order in Europe, regardless who wins.