Worst off path Crusade ever!

Hey guys, I've been devoting my time to reading in the Archives and found some old threads dealing with this topic. So, I'm opening it back up to vent some frustration!!

I've played 11 campaigns and know the Crusade movement rules and such. I don't believe it. I refuse to believe it. The computer CAN and DOES wander anywhere he wants to (within SOME reason) and leaves on his crusade whenever he darn well pleases.
I was playing as the French. A German crusade bound for somewhere in Holy Land (it's been a while) wandered into France and moved around, CHASING MY MAIN ARMY through EVERY SINGLE TERRITORY in France....that's not a misprint. I had tried to move out of it's way. (In several campaigns, I have done that only to have it illogically move right to where I moved my army) This lasted for 7-10 turns. It then wandered down into Spain all the way to Cordoba even and this took 10 turns or so. It then came back up into France and we repeated the previous dance for 7-10 years again.
~:mad
It then went back through Germany to it's doom I guess.

:knight: player crusade
:charge: AI crusade

That's crazy. If there was some real reason....I sure couldn't figure it out. Supposedly you don't have to take the quickest route to your target, but think about how illogical that idea is. If that were true.....EVERY province that borders where your Crusade is one step closer to the target....just taking a longer route....(all right fellers, we're headed to Turkyland to kick some butt. We're gonna get on this here ship and sail from France to Cathay. Then we'll march to India and take a ship to London, where we'll march to Byzantium and sail to Stockholm. Then we'll march through Denmark, France and Spain...across Africa...from Palestine we'll sail to Venice and then march to Anatolia to fight!.....hope we're not all old men by the time we get there). Also, Crusades didn't take 30 years marching to the target. Historically, they lasted 3-5 years TOTAL. This is one reason I've always been in favor of a change to a 3 turn year (Spring, Summer, Winter....penalties to campaign in Winter.....except for GH which thrived in the Winter and historically campaigned pretty much only in the Winter) in any future version. One way the wandering Crusade problem could be helped is to have a Crusade end if it doesn't fight it's first battle within x number of years (about 5 should be fair).

I have NEVER had the movement options that the AI seems to have with it's Crusades. Only rarely is there even more than one choice of province to move to.

I've never seen that happen. What faction are you?

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Originally Posted by miho

I've never seen that happen. What faction are you?

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I was playing as the French in my 2nd or 3rd campaign. It was also before I got VI.

happens to me all the time too (see the thread 'arrrgh, i hate crusades!' by Cowhead 418) and is very annoying. you can get round the enforced route with YOUR crusades by shifting them by sea before you reach Byzantine turf and lose men through lack of Christian zeal, but short of refusing permission to enter your land (which at best gets you ex'comm'd for being aggressive and at worse gets you a war you didn't want as well) there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about AI crusades wandering aimlessly through your provinces and generally messing about instead of getting down to business against the heathen.

i suppose you can reduce zeal in your provinces by various means listed in the guides, to reduce troop losses, but i agree that AI crusades could have been better regulated. although part of the 'fun' of crusades is that they're rather unpredictable, and historically often got a bit 'sidetracked'...the Second Crusade attacked the nominally Christian-allied city of Damascus and the Fourth Crusade ended up sacking that well known Muslim enclave of, er, Constantinople.
~:doh:

Crusades tend to hang around Poland a lot also. Early in the game all you can do is move your troops away and hope it will move on quick. After about 1250 or so I normally start telling them they can't pass. Since no one ever helps me with the Horde, I get bitter.:poland:

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Originally Posted by m52nickerson

Crusades tend to hang around Poland a lot also. Early in the game all you can do is move your troops away and hope it will move on quick. After about 1250 or so I normally start telling them they can't pass. Since no one ever helps me with the Horde, I get bitter.:poland:

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Of course not....that ungrateful Western rabble whom you are defending!

I always think of it as they're recruiting people.

Well, yeah, basically I like it this way. It'd be boring if the AI's always aim for their main goal.

Oh ya, last time I emptied my province and they sack something thousand florins from me lol.

they looted you? i've played 'chase the army' with a crusade before, in a desperate attempt to avoid losing my men without offending the Pope, and left a number of frontier provinces undefended as a result, but never noticed any looting...ah, but i did have a peasant garrison. so, if there's no garrison at all, they loot the province, even a fellow Catholic province?

I was Byzantine and the crusade was of Germans. I wasn't sure whether or not they could take away my orthodox troops (still am not sure as I never tested it) so I emptied my province anyway. It's a habit I picked up from playing as catholic lol. Well, I didn't like them at the time but I was too weak to fight them.

aha, right. yeah, i've noticed my crusades looting Orthodox provinces (some times for quite a lot, heheh), but not Catholic ones.
i don't think you can take Orthodox troops as the province has no Catholic Zeal, but you can certainly lose men at a vicious rate, a nasty shock when you arrive in Antioch with 500 worn out guys and there's 3000 eggies sitting there going 'if your name's not down you're not getting in'.

i've been joined for a crusade battle in Antioch by a Byzantine allied army (! not that historically innaccurate really) but never tried to pinch their troops. anyone tried sitting half a dozen Catholic bishops in an Orthodox province for a while and then marching a crusade through? do you get any Byzantine troops joining you that way?

IIRC Catholics can be looted by crusades as well, if the crusade sits in your province long enough. I remember a game from a long time ago where I was one of the smaller Catholic nations (may have been Poland) and a crusade was aimed at a province on my eastern border. The crusade arrived, got beat back, and then never attacked again, eventually disbanding after a dozen or so years and looting thousands of florings. The worst part was that once I agreed to let it pass I couldn't do anything about it but sit there and watch it eat my florins.

This was on vanilla MTW, I've never noticed a crusade just sitting outside it's target on VI (it always seems to attack, regardless of the hopelessness of the situation in VI).

Heres one. in my current campaign a Spanish crusade has been sitting in Switzerland (which I own) for almost twenty years. It soaked up a bunch of troops, and then started to die out slowly. The worst part is, it is surrounded by other Spanish provinces. No enemies. They came to Switzerland, liked the chocolate and skiing, and never left.
:poland:

wow, never seen that before, a crusade refusing to move despite not having any enemy provinces next door...perhaps they had to give up all their weapons upon entering Switzerland?
package holiday crusading tourism! i recently had a German crusade from Burgundy attempt to get to Syria via Aragon, unfortunately as i was Spanish, this involved it pinching my very expensive royal army in Toulouse first...
~:mecry:

I've found its easier to play as the English when you don't want a crusade to go through you. otherwise i usually play as the biz and they just loot alot of my florins even though im allied with them.:duel:

When declaring a crusade, can you use other faction's sea lanes?

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Originally Posted by elbasto

When declaring a crusade, can you use other faction's sea lanes?

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I don't know, but that brings me to another wierd Crusade situation. I've twice had a French Crusade get "stuck" in Venice. ~:pissed: The first time was a while a ago, so I don't remember much. The second time it had been a while since I went across Central Europe. I thought I'd like some Italian Light Infantry in the Crusade, so I decided to risk it (for many games, I had simply gone straight to Outremer via ships or marched across Germany, Poland, the Balkans, and Anatolia). Again, I get to Venice and am unable to move. I thought Maybe it was forcing me to chose a sea route, so I established it. Still can't move. I checked and doublechecked that there were Egyptian ships anywhere blocking my route. So, maybe I'm forced to use the Italian fleet. No Egyptians blocking them either and they did have a route to Outremer. Those are the facts. What I was missing I don't know. So, don't try to tell me that the computer works by the same rules we do. :helloo: I DON'T BELIEVE IT. I was stuck and could NOT (edit) move. I was obviously being forced to make a certain move that for whatever reason I missed, I was not able to do. I could not "go a longer route" and again, as I pointed in an earlier post....any province is one province closer to the target...just by a "longer route." So, that logic is flawed. :gah2: The computer's Crusade movement restrictions are VERY DEFINATELY "looser" than a human player's. :charge:

Now, the kicker from the earlier scenario. Do you know how I was able to move eventually?

***I DECLARED WAR ON THE ITALIANS***

Instantly, I was able to march to Croatia. ~:confused:

What happened?

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Originally Posted by The Darkhorn

So, don't try to tell me that the computer works by the same rules we do. :helloo: I DON'T BELIEVE IT. I was stuck and could move. I was obviously being forced to make a certain move that for whatever reason I missed, I was not able to do. I could not "go a longer route" and again, as I pointed in an earlier post....any province is one province closer to the target...just by a "longer route." So, that logic is flawed. :gah2: The computer's Crusade movement restrictions are VERY DEFINATELY "looser" than a human player's. :charge:

Now, the kicker from the earlier scenario. Do you know how I was able to move eventually?

***I DECLARED WAR ON THE ITALIANS***

Instantly, I was able to march to Croatia. ~:confused:

What happened?

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Possibly the shortest route to Outremer was through Cyrenia? The crusade can only move one the shortest possible way (which can lead to annoying situations when the Italians or Scilians are connecting and disconnecting shiproutes every other turn. Anyway, I think everyone agrees that the computer cheats when it comes to crusading movement restrictions.

I usually don't bother much with Crusades but in my current English campaign (after a few months not playing) I decided to utilize them. I built the necessary buildings in my border province of Lorraine and carefully cultivated zeal in that province plus several enemy (but Catholic provinces) on the way. Finally I decided to Crusade to Constantinople (which the GH had taken). My only choice for movement after 20 years work? Friesland! (which I owned)

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Originally Posted by elbasto

When declaring a crusade, can you use other faction's sea lanes?

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The French used my Byz ship route from Bulgaria through to Tripoli,they were allies at the time yet pillaged a few hundred florins from me.As my emmisaries use other`s ship lanes I can`t see why not.

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Originally Posted by VeroImperatoreDiRoma

The French used my Byz ship route from Bulgaria through to Tripoli,they were allies at the time yet pillaged a few hundred florins from me.As my emmisaries use other`s ship lanes I can`t see why not.

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Emissaries don't use ship lines. They can hop from port to port without ships.

Apologies!

I`m slowly advancing with the trade lanes etc. off topic a little but I notice I attack enemy`s ships and they speed off sometimes without combat,is it to do with your fleet`s speed? Or just something your enemy can do?

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off topic a little but I notice I attack enemy`s ships and they speed off sometimes without combat,is it to do with your fleet`s speed? Or just something your enemy can do?

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I don't know for sure but I guess they speed away or move the ship. There's no way to find it out but you basically "run away" if you move your ship. You never know whether the AI is attacking you or not unti one of the ships sink. I guess a ship can "escape" from battle if it has better speed otherwise why would the ships have speed level?

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

they looted you? i've played 'chase the army' with a crusade before, in a desperate attempt to avoid losing my men without offending the Pope, and left a number of frontier provinces undefended as a result, but never noticed any looting...ah, but i did have a peasant garrison. so, if there's no garrison at all, they loot the province, even a fellow Catholic province?

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It depends on the province. Faction capitals (ie Byzantium or Egypt) will usally get looted by a crusade. Most other provinces don't have to worry about the plunderers.

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Originally Posted by Weebeast

I don't know for sure but I guess they speed away or move the ship. There's no way to find it out but you basically "run away" if you move your ship. You never know whether the AI is attacking you or not unti one of the ships sink. I guess a ship can "escape" from battle if it has better speed otherwise why would the ships have speed level?

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If one fleet attacks another that is ordered to move to another sea area (which happens often because the A.I. appears to know when you order an attack on his fleets), it depends on the relative speed of the fleets if there is a battle. The speed of a fleet is that of its slowest ship and if the speeds are equal, there is a 50% chance that the escaping fleet is caught. However, you can order multiple stacks to attacks an enemy fleet, and if one succeeds in caching them, the following fleets will also get them. So it can be worthwile to seperate a fast but weak ship from a fleet and ordering it to make a first attack, and next (in the same turn) ordering the rest of the fleet to attack. Your fast ship will probably be defeated, but the second, stronger fleet can catch up and kill the escaping enemy fleet.

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Originally Posted by Lars Jorgensun

It depends on the province. Faction capitals (ie Byzantium or Egypt) will usally get looted by a crusade. Most other provinces don't have to worry about the plunderers.

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Actually, it is determined by the religion of the province. A crusade in a predominatly Catholic province will cause parts of the garison to desert (depending on the zeal), a crusade in a predominantly Mulsim or Orthodox province will loot the province. This aplies off course only when the faction that owns the province has given permission for the crusade to pass. If they haven't, the crusade will fight an ordinary battle.

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If one fleet attacks another that is ordered to move to another sea area (which happens often because the A.I. appears to know when you order an attack on his fleets), it depends on the relative speed of the fleets if there is a battle. The speed of a fleet is that of its slowest ship and if the speeds are equal, there is a 50% chance that the escaping fleet is caught. However, you can order multiple stacks to attacks an enemy fleet, and if one succeeds in caching them, the following fleets will also get them. So it can be worthwile to seperate a fast but weak ship from a fleet and ordering it to make a first attack, and next (in the same turn) ordering the rest of the fleet to attack. Your fast ship will probably be defeated, but the second, stronger fleet can catch up and kill the escaping enemy fleet.

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Cheers for that detail man. I'm not gonna stack my ships anymore so that the slowest ship doesn't put down the fast ones. Plus, I always thought that if I win a land battle I'll also win the naval battle regardless the ships' strength lol.

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Originally Posted by Weebeast

Cheers for that detail man. I'm not gonna stack my ships anymore so that the slowest ship doesn't put down the fast ones. Plus, I always thought that if I win a land battle I'll also win the naval battle regardless the ships' strength lol.

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One thing about seperating ships though. One on One they tend to lose 70% to the Italian and Sicilian alliance breakers. Any other ships DON'T seem to be able to help it in that situation. The AI attacks your "stack," in this case of one ship. It would be better to keep them all together when at peace and just sitting there. It may even discourage these notorious trade route disrupting attacks anyway. The AI's not likely to attack your stack of 2 barques and a caravel with his firegalley, but he will laugh and sink your stack of one of your barques while your other two ships watch, cheer, and drink beer.

Yeah, definitely keep them stacked up when not trying to chase down a fast ship. I can't ever seem to win one on one, regardless of how much higher my ship's command is. The absolute worst thing about naval battles, though, is having your superior ships, with superior numbers, and a superior leader, all get whooped by an inferior force without sinking a single galley.~:mecry:

Cheers for the info once again! In general do you attack ships belonging to factions you are at war with at every opportunity? Or is it best to show a bit of naval might then ease off (as long as they aren`t attacking you)

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Originally Posted by VeroImperatoreDiRoma

Cheers for the info once again! In general do you attack ships belonging to factions you are at war with at every opportunity? Or is it best to show a bit of naval might then ease off (as long as they aren`t attacking you)

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Once late into the game and no one will make peace with me...I just like to keep 'em sunk. Put 3-4 ships off the coast of each of their ports and sink every ship as soon as it comes out.

Cheap and takes micro managing, but effective.

Massive naval showdowns are pretty good fun, although in my recent campaign on XL mod the Danes are beginning to look dangerous. They have several stacks of ships near Spain, and though not as insane as they are on the screenshot I've seen floating around, they're getting there.

Running a crusade through your enemy's armys is the best way to start a war ~;)

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Originally Posted by The Darkhorn

One thing about seperating ships though. One on One they tend to lose 70% to the Italian and Sicilian alliance breakers. Any other ships DON'T seem to be able to help it in that situation. The AI attacks your "stack," in this case of one ship. It would be better to keep them all together when at peace and just sitting there. It may even discourage these notorious trade route disrupting attacks anyway. The AI's not likely to attack your stack of 2 barques and a caravel with his firegalley, but he will laugh and sink your stack of one of your barques while your other two ships watch, cheer, and drink beer.

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Absolutely! Naval fights are just between two fleets and one-ship fleets are considered irresistable by the A.I. Only separate a single fast ship if you want to catch a small enemy fleet that is most likely going to flee when you attack with the big stack.

When in Naval war, I always try to clear the sealanes of opposing fleets as fast as possible, but land war has the priority. BTW, several players say that succes in sea battles is inversely related to succes on dry land, so sending a unit of peasants on a suicide attack just before a decisive sea battle is a good way of ensuring success. I have never tried this, though.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Absolutely! Naval fights are just between two fleets and one-ship fleets are considered irresistable by the A.I. Only separate a single fast ship if you want to catch a small enemy fleet that is most likely going to flee when you attack with the big stack.

When in Naval war, I always try to clear the sealanes of opposing fleets as fast as possible, but land war has the priority. BTW, several players say that succes in sea battles is inversely related to succes on dry land, so sending a unit of peasants on a suicide attack just before a decisive sea battle is a good way of ensuring success. I have never tried this, though.

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I find if I keep 2-3 ships in every zone with a a couple of larger ones to augment storm losses, I avoid the backstabbing naval attacks.

MostCrusade I launch are against...MONGOLS