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Secret CIA Flights Won't Go Away
Reports keep coming of covert CIA flights through Europe that carry terrorist suspects to places where torture is legal. A German paper on Friday reports that they haven't stopped, which could be awkward for Angela Merkel if she wants to make nice with Washington. .... http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...386824,00.html
This has gone on and on in Swedish press, and to be honest im hoping the swedish police/military gets their thumbs out of their asses and arrest/search that/those plane/s if they decide to land here again.
As long as their documentation is in order, why bother... :huh:
well I dont really like the idea of CIA planes in sweden, torturing people.... just aint right.
Justification of "sticking your nose into everywhere". I doubt they could be prevented under legitimate terms. They have reasonable (!) causes.
Reasonable cause to stop flights like that? Or reasonable cause to send people to countries that will use torture by default?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
reasonable cause (!) for the fight against terrorism : "We're saving the world from the evil"
I did not start this thread to show what the CIA does. I guess that is nothing new. I guess they alwasy did what they liked to do and did not care about the host countries.
The new thing is that the hosts are upset and it looks like they will not accept that any longer. The funny thing is that our new Kanzlerin always wanted to improve the relatioship to Bush and now she makes her first trip to Washington DC and what is she talking about - CIA, torture, ... ~D
Who elected her anyway?!?~:rolleyes:
If they're so upset about these flights, they should do something about it.
exactly, dont let them land, if they do... arrest the crew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
... then just wait for the Bushites to cry and whine about it.
I guess the arguing will be something like :
"There are no flights.
And if there are, that's the democrats' fault."
or
"This is War on Terrorism man ! Your hippie ideology won't save you when OBL will be rapping your wife and eating your children. Plus, these guy are probably really bad and deserve to be tortured. I mean, Castro tortures people, so why couldn't we ?"
Edit : I almost forgot the good old
"Define Torture", or even "Define Flights"
~:eek:
Are you kidding? Arresting Americans? :scared: Who work for their country and fight for freedom?
That would mean that German governments supports terrorists. And Germany has the potential to build and use chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. You know what the US does with those countries!
Well, they are CIA. I'm guessing they could sneak their way to, and through, places if they wanted to.
:hide:
Isn't it legal by international law to intervene with anti-aircraft guns and fighters when military aircraft of another nations flies over your air territory? If they're working in WOT, i.e. a war, then they're military personell and it's justified to shoot the planes down according to international law. Or?
Moving people to torture them outside the US because it's illegal in the US is hypocrisy. Either torture them in the USA and take back the signing of UN human rights documents, so it becomes obvious that the US regime is committing crimes which will have no positive effect at all for the USA, acts which aren't supported by more than a minority of the US population, and which isn't justifiable in any way, especially not against people which haven't gone through any sort of trial and where there's no burden of proof at all required before the torture, often so harsh that it is lethal, begins. If it's part of the Bush political program to torture people to death without a trial, then it should **** well have been written clearly, BEFORE the election took place, as one of the points on their political agenda.
If the torture victims will die anyway, just shoot the planes down so the torture hurts the guilty too. The CIA guys on them are carrying out inhumane, unjustified actions, and it's more or less only by fanatical literal interpretation of law that they can be called legal. Of course, give prior warning over radio that you'll open fire against these military flights before opening fire, and give them a chance to turn around. If they're out of fuel let them take down to refuel but only if they use the fuel to go back in the same direction they came from. If they abuse the ability to refuel more than three times, take it away.
your right about the use of arms against hostile aircraft but CIA covery cannot be considered combatants and to some degree have extraterritoriality in many places which i think is just BS.
also finding a loophole in international conduct is dispicable if the only end to it will be the torture of some terrorists (if we can prove thats what really happens) even protecting the country can stop at some degree, i can agree with the adherence oh high stress on the enemy but not downright torture. we act as if we are better then other countries by invading there airspace, and that is not how to cement international relations.
Send these CIA ghost detainee fights to Shannon if you have a problem with people in legal limbo and under threat of possible torture using your airports . Bertie could really do with the landing/ATC fees and refueling payments to make his break up of the airport authorities look viable .
Oh damn , he has already done it, cheap whore that he is .
I wonder if Italy is still allowing these flights , since they put out those arrest warrents for the CIA agents for kidnapping they must have firm legal grounds to stop all CIA flights to see if these fugitives from justice are on board . ~D
As long as their documentation is in order, why bother...
How do you get documentation in order for someone who has been kidnapped ?
I hope you know that that would not go over well with the CIA. We'd have a rise in dissappearances in Sweden methinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazul
And so the **** what? Their on planes, what does that have to do with you guys?
And so the **** what? Their on planes, what does that have to do with you guys?
Ever heard of a thing called soveriegnty , it covers land sea and air .
Ever heard of criminality or jurisdiction ?
Ever hear of escorts? Ever heard of transgression or threat of war? If you were to stop these flights it would be a transgression, and some very nasty things may happen. It's best just to ignore them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I think CIA planes are safe from Sweden. ~;p
If the plane is not flying under diplomatic recognization - then the plane must comply with the regulations and the laws of the nation in which it is overflying and/or landing in. If the plane is flying on a diplomatic mission it falls in a different catergory, not sure of all the rules in that regardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
If they are using planes under the guise of diplomatic couriers - then maybe your comments here would be correct - but I am willing to wager that the planes are flying under a different guise then diplomatic.
If the nation where the plane plans to stop does not want the activities on their terrorities or the individuals - that nation can refuse them permission to land. If the nation allows the plane to stop but suspects actions that violate their laws - they then have two choices - arrest all involved and take ownership of situation - or allow the aircraft to depart. Most nations will ignore the situation while its own their soil - but complain after the fact. To bad they don't have the backbone to attempt to arrest the CIA agents and take the plane when its on their soil.
Ever heard of transgression or threat of war? If you were to stop these flights it would be a transgression, and some very nasty things may happen. It's best just to ignore them.
~D ~D ~D ~D ~D ~D ~D oh my~D ~D ~D ~D ~D stop it hurts~D ~D ~D
bloody hell capo what are you on ?
We will violate your soveriegnty ignore your laws and jurisdiction as well as our own laws and if you don't like it we will threaten you with war .:stupido: ~:doh: :stupido2: ~:doh: :stupido3: ~:doh:
Don't worry here comes some helpful medication:nurse:
as redleg said, no one is forcing sweden to let the american cia use their airspace. there's some agreement between both countries involved here. i doubt sweden is completely ignorant of what's going on, too. so what, exactly, is the issue?
YAY PILLS! w00tage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
so what, exactly, is the issue?
The issue is that the governments condemn it , launch inquiries into it , say they are protesting about it , but do bugger all to stop it .
Then again thats governments for ya~:handball:
Capo YAY PILLS! w00tage.~:thumb: stick to the ~:cheers: it messes your head but its legal .
Sweden is completely ignorant of what is going on. That is the issue. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by solypsist
You captured the essence perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
BTW, your plane leaves in an hour~:cool:
ichi:bow:
Then its up to them to pay attention to what is going on in their airspace and on the ground at their airportsQuote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
You mean that Sweden is stupid to actually trust US when they declare the flights ?? ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
It would seem so wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
- its up to Sweden to insure that all aspects of its laws are honored by those who cross into thier soil. Its also up to the individuals who come into the terrority - but the enforcement aspect of the law is the responsiblity of the government which wants its laws obeyed.
If the plane lands on Swedish soil - and they believe or chose not to believe the declartion of the pilot it is still their (Sweden) resposiblity to verify that their laws are being obeyed and that the declartion is correct. If they chose to believe the declaration - then if it turns out to be incorrect - well its kind of hard to scream foul when you did not actually check anything.
But yeah is kind of stupid to trust anything if you don't verify the declarations some of the time. Trust on the part of the port authories is no excuse for slopply enforcement of the law, especially when it seems that your aware that the, you know it is happening concerning charter flights coming out of the United States flying to other countries, but you still just allow it to continue.
Wait what country allows torture besides the special case of USA...Sweden?!!! It cannot be can it?~:eek:
There's a side issue here. When a "criminal" tries to scape "justice" and fly to a foreing country in wich the "justice" has no jurisdiction, everyone sees him as a...well a worst criminal, and he must be repressed even worst. But when the organs of the state do it, oh no it's ok, after all it's political action. I understand that this kind of actions by any given state are simple and plain amoral and ilegitime.
I am not so worried about the flights itself. I am amazed that the European governments are upset. That is the issue. The Us always did things that were not very kind to their hosts. I remember some years ago TV quoted a report of German itelligence. It was clear that the CIA used the intelligence network in Germany (and they had and hace a lot of it) to spy German companies and give information to their US competitors. After the report the German government had to ask the US about this issue. They replied that German companies have nothing that could be of interest for the US companies. End of the story! And this was in the Clinton age.
So I am curious how it is going to end this time.
And I am curious what Merkel is going to do. She is just on her trip to Bush to tell him that she is his new pet. Bad timing~:joker:
what the f**k is that supposed to mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
anyway, what I was trying to say is that if the yanks want to torture people they should get the hell of swedish soil and do it in the USA. Or are they such cowards they dont dare to do the torturing on their own soil? I guess thats the case.... Wanker-CIA.
Of course a lot of governements know what's going on with these planes. They're saying they'll investigate the issue so they don't appear as being totally powerless. They just don't have the gutts to stop the planes and arrest CIA agents. I mean, as someone said, as soon as one country will try to do that, official US propaganda will explain why this country is betraying democracy, helping the terrorists, and so on.
I remember, not so long ago, a few european countries said the War in Irak was a total joke, and puf, their goods were boycotted in the US, they were described as traitors, as lamers, etc.
Any European country I know? ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Your countries won't do anything because you like using the intel gleaned as well when the CIA shares it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Sure, the Freedom Fries movement was idiotic, but let's not pretend that that was when you were first described this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Or is it the other way around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
"Here, take our intel, as a reward for your "cooperation", now you're also culprits to the torture/killing and will look stupid if you officially pursue a view against the torture." That, with the (of course empty) threat of defaming and possibly attacking the countries in question, is a classical combo threat+bribe to keep cowardly state leaders silent.
It's difficult seeing exactly which point you're trying to argue against. Are you trying to defend the actual torture and killing without trial, or just saying that a case of "why don't you see the beam that is in your own eye" may perhaps exist in the situation?
And you think the world community hasn't learnt anything from Stalin's USSR? That mystically disappearing people equals killed people, and that they therefore end up martyrs just as much as those officially killed? Creating martyrs who died because they refused to accept government-driven torture and murder without trial will not exactly put the USA in a good light. It's a good way of creating a real tension, other than the rhetorical tension, between the USA and Europe, which would hurt both the USA and Europe in the future when East Asia will rise economically (and as a result, militarily). Not even the Bush administration would be foolish enough to make such a move in response to Europeans making arrests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
The latter. It just seems a little naive to think that it's only the CIA that could be doing dirty work here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
I'm not saying it's okay, but let's try and look at the whole thing. Then we can realize how pointless it is trying to solve any of these problems and go back to our video games and coffee.
:coffeenews: :charge:
Our intelligence is enough, thanks ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Never said so. Each time France doesn't lay down with America, we're targetered by economic measures and crappy propaganda. That's fairly usual now (note : It works the other way around, we like to blame america for nothing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
That might explain why other countries won't protest against these flights. At best, they'll be ignored and the planes will stop in Algeria instead of Spain, and at worse (ie. if Bush needs to find another international target due to his national issues), they'll be described as terrorists' b****, traitors and antichrists.
Edit : Glad to see you're back :)
Yeah, that was Russia, and two other socialist-hippies countries, but I can't remember which ones... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Your countries won't do anything because you like using the intel gleaned as well when the CIA shares it with you.
would this be the intel that helped convict a terrorist involved in the 9/11 attacks ?
oh no sorry , wrong case , the conviction was overturned because the intel wasn't shared was it .
See it is vital in this war on terror to be able to do anything you like to bring terrorists to justice , well ..... apart from actually bringing terrorists to justice~:confused: .
It's the CIA doing the torture and killing. If others like it, then it's not their fault. Compare it to if you own a shop and your worst competitor's shop is vandalized and robbed. Do you consider yourself guilty? It's up to the CIA to decide whether they want to carry out torturing and killing or not, whether they'll use public trials or not. The decision lies entirely in the hands of the USA. If they're doing it as part of an alliance with another country, then it's foolish to make US hands carry out all the work and not let the ally do the rest. Show me proof that another country is carrying out torture and killings, and I'll despise their actions as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
So what parts of the whole thing is it you claim we're missing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
What intel would that be? And how has it been useful?Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
What intel would that be? And how has it been useful?
Well it can be very useful , look at that bloke who was transferrred to Morrocco to be tortured , he gave loads of information about the planned Sarin attack in London , which was really useful as it was a load of rubbish , but it meant Blair and Co. could scare the hell out of Britain for two years before they finally had to admit it was all rubbish .
It did give a chance for a judge to threaten Blunkett with jail though , so there is a bright side~;)
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
No, but if I looked the other way while it was being robbed I would.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
I don't know myself, but why don't we try and explore that instead of stating that the planes be shot down?Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
don't know myself, but why don't we try and explore that
Where would you like to start ?
Accountability ? well the White house/State Dept says it is going to answer Europes questions over the issue ...soon...very soon ... honestly we are getting round to it but you must understand these are hard questions and we need to think up some really almost convincing answers .~;)
Torture ? Oh no no no , civilised countries don't do torture and if they sign agreements banning torture then they cannot aid or fascilitate its execution in any way .
Inquireys ? well if they turn up what they expect to turn up then two countries that tried for years before being allowed to join the EU are going to get their voting rights taken away . I wonder if that will be extended to other EU countries involved ? I doubt it
Diplomatic Immunity ? Judge says no , grave offenses are not covered by diplomatic immunity and many of the operatives have no diplomatic status anyway .
Sharing intelligence ? see earlier posts on not sharing intelligence , or sharing intelligence obtained through torture which is such a reliable way to get innaccurate information .
Doing something about the issues ? yeah well as its politicians making a big noise while doing nothing then as usual little will be done~:handball:
Good - a discussion on the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
That is only one part of the accountablity. One must look at the complete picture. How many nations are protesting the action in public - but within the confines of the government are supporting and even assisting the United States with its actions. Having the White House account for its actions is what needs to happen - but others must also be held to account. The United States is not doing this without the knowledge of the governments of some the nations that are asking for the accountablity.Quote:
Accountability ? well the White house/State Dept says it is going to answer Europes questions over the issue ...soon...very soon ... honestly we are getting round to it but you must understand these are hard questions and we need to think up some really almost convincing answers .~;)
However one can send criminal suspects back to their country of origin. However I don't agree with the CIA having secert little holding places to question their "guest" - sending the "guests" back to their country of origin is one thing - and is allowed, sending to another country to get information however should be questioned, investigated, and prevented if found to be in violating the treaties on this.Quote:
Torture ? Oh no no no , civilised countries don't do torture and if they sign agreements banning torture then they cannot aid or fascilitate its execution in any way .
So the hyprocrisy is not just the United States now is it?Quote:
Inquireys ? well if they turn up what they expect to turn up then two countries that tried for years before being allowed to join the EU are going to get their voting rights taken away . I wonder if that will be extended to other EU countries involved ? I doubt it
Then the when the plane lands in the country that questions the validity of the aircraft's stated course and purpose - they should investigate. If they don't the onus of being accountable for a crime also falls on them.Quote:
Diplomatic Immunity ? Judge says no , grave offenses are not covered by diplomatic immunity and many of the operatives have no diplomatic status anyway .
~:eek:Quote:
Sharing intelligence ? see earlier posts on not sharing intelligence , or sharing intelligence obtained through torture which is such a reliable way to get innaccurate information .
Yep the hypocrisy of the European governments and thier politicans on this issue is very evident for all to see. And the ones that could do something about it have no backbone to make the arrest when the plane lands on their terrority.Quote:
Doing something about the issues ? yeah well as its politicians making a big noise while doing nothing then as usual little will be done~:handball:
That is only one part of the accountablity
skip to the last bit you quote from me Red .~:handball:
Then the when the plane lands in the country that questions the validity of the aircraft's stated course and purpose - they should investigate. If they don't the onus of being accountable for a crime also falls on them.
That bit you are addressing is from a case where charges have been filed , warrants issued and applications for extradition lodged . The defense(US govt) says no to extradition and appeals , the judge throws out the appeal as baseless under law .
So who is the onus on now Red ? are they going to appeal again on other grounds or are they going to hand over the fugitives . Only one suspect had claims to diplomatic immunity (which has been rejected) so even if Lady had won the appeal the other 21 would have to be handed over , and they cannot say that the charges are false or without foundation or they wouldn't be fighting through the Italian courts would they .
So the hyprocrisy is not just the United States now is it?
Wow Red nearly the whole topic goes on about the European governments actions , did you miss it ???? Or has the persecution complex kicked in ~;)
Actually I only address your bullet comment on this one - the rest of the points I address as I went. Each issue warranted its own seperate discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
It doesn't quit work that way - when the official at the port decides that a possible crime is being committed.Quote:
Then the when the plane lands in the country that questions the validity of the aircraft's stated course and purpose - they should investigate. If they don't the onus of being accountable for a crime also falls on them.
That bit you are addressing is from a case where charges have been filed , warrants issued and applications for extradition lodged . The defense(US govt) says no to extradition and appeals , the judge throws out the appeal as baseless under law .
The onus is on the individuals who committ the crime and the officals who allow the crime to happen. Regardless of the country or countries involved. Yes indeed the United States could be doing an illegal act - but again if the plane lands in a soveriegn land and they know that a possible crime is being committed and they refuse to do anything about it. They are just as culible in the activity as the United States.Quote:
So who is the onus on now Red ? are they going to appeal again on other grounds or are they going to hand over the fugitives . Only one suspect had claims to diplomatic immunity (which has been rejected) so even if Lady had won the appeal the other 21 would have to be handed over , and they cannot say that the charges are false or without foundation or they wouldn't be fighting through the Italian courts would they .
Nope just stating the obvious - good to assume you think otherwise. Maybe your guilt is beginnig to also set in.~:joker:Quote:
So the hyprocrisy is not just the United States now is it?
Wow Red nearly the whole topic goes on about the European governments actions , did you miss it ???? Or has the persecution complex kicked in ~;)
News:
1) Condoleza promised to clarify the flights to the European nations. She did not tell when or how.
I really wonder what the Americans understand of 'normal relationships' and how Merkel wants to improve the relationship Germany / US.
2) The first German is captured by terrorists in Iraq. Merkel realy has a tough start.
Exactly, that's why we think European governments are acting wrong according to most posters in this thread. They refuse to do arrests or shooting the planes down or anything similar, while at the same time saying they're worried about the flights. Either they know of the crimes and do something to stop them, or they must pretend not to know about them. This way is ridiculous both ethically and rhetorically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
That's what I tought we were already exploring in this thread. Why is arresting the guilty or shooting down military flights, which is allowed by law, a bad solution in your opinion? Explain that, and we'll have an interesting discussion started. I don't go into any debate claiming my view is perfect, I state my view, or part of it, until I get contra-arguments with motivations. If the contra-arguments are valid, I adapt my opinion accordingly, without forgetting the arguments which supported my initial view, trying to make a view which has all the pro arguments but none of the contra arguments against it - Click. However if you keep hiding what your arguments are, there's no way both our arguments can be tried for correctness, and the discussion has been pointless, because neither of us understand the other part better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
It makes me happy to hear that US officials admit their mistake and are considering to be honorable and correct the mistake. While it's obvious the torture is either used as a way of spreading fear/making examples or for quickly getting information about terrorist cells before they disperse, and this is an understandable approach to some extent seen from a strictly military view, it turns out it's not very effective to use fear of death against suicide candidate terrorists and that speed of action and the element of surprise isn't as important in an already drawn-out war, where the USA also have superior tactical strength. It turns out both the ethical aspects of torture, and the lack of military effectiveness of it, are pointing in the same direction when it comes to hinting which decision to make in the matter to torture or not to torture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Se only promised to give some information; did not tell when and what. To me it sounds like the diplomatic version of: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESSQuote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Rice will be visiting European countries next week I believe. Germany has been mentioned by State as one possible destination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
I think Redleg and Proletariat are right. 'The United States is not doing this without the knowledge of the governments of some the nations that are asking for the accountablity'.
France does have a rather long and unpleasant history of it's own in using 'unconventional methods' to counter terrorism:
Now I don't know about a place like Sweden, but the French secret services are and have always been run by cynical, 'realist', objective oriented policies. (Rainbow Warrior, anyone?) And we know we are a target to terrorists.Quote:
The French experience that was developed during the wars in Indochina and, especially, in Algeria emphasized the role of intelligence in counterrevolutionary warfare. This approach gave the intelligence services a central role in the repressive campaign. Torture was defended as a legitimate military device in the counterinsurgency effort. The main argument given was that military necessity demanded the use of torture in order to extract information from the enemy. Information had to be obtained rapidly in order to prevent further acts of violence. According to this rationale, the rules of war did not apply to a new type of war without clearly defined battle lines or large concentrations of combatants and weaponry. Thus the state could resort to "unconventional methods" to protect its citizens from an elusive and insidious enemy: terrorism/subversion.
The relations between the American and French intelligence agencies have been surprisingly good, despite the Iraq affair, with a great deal of information sharing. Now the nasty thing with secret services is that they tend to operate in secret, so it's not possible to know everything that goes on, but I'm under no illusion that the Americans are asked where and by which means they got their information from.
think Redleg and Proletariat are right. 'The United States is not doing this without the knowledge of the governments of some the nations that are asking for the accountablity'.
Yep France has allowed two flights , Austria has a case though , but that is over violation of airspace . Germany tops the list with 96 flights followed by Britain with 80 .
The relations between the American and French intelligence agencies have been surprisingly good, despite the Iraq affair, with a great deal of information sharing.
I wonder with all the senseless french bashing if some people realise that without French help America couldn't have blown up those involved in the attack on the USS Cole .
Sure do. I'm quite fond of the French anyhow, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they're co-operative with my government's foriegn policies. Sorry Tribesman, not every American fits your preconcieved notions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I was only bothered that the first page of this thread came across as not leaving enough blame on all the likely parties. I'm not excusing anything the CIA's done. Let's just be fair.
I don't even know what the CIA has actually been guilty of so far, but from the posts on page one you'd think half the backroom Euro's were a bunch of ex-spook whistle blowers who know the ins and outs of every dungeon and torture chamber the CIA runs in eastern Europe.
Which reminds me of the glory days of Dutch military intelligence right after World War II, when The Netherlands tried to regain control of their former colony of Indonesia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat
Our military intelligence did an excellent job torturing suspects both publicly and behind closed doors, burning down entire villages and targeting all the wrong installations and areas. A new age had dawned in warfare, the age of... terrorism! To fight it, we believed new rules were required, or better still: no rules at all. With hindsight, it brought us just as far as it did the British and the French: nowhere. The only differenc being that we got there quicker. Within the span of a mere two years we had managed to turn not only the entire Indonesian population squarely against us, but all of world opinion from the United States to China and from Brazil to the Soviet Union as well. Bravo!
Of course the triumphant, yet ever so timely homecoming of our valiant troops in 1949 was not at all marred by the sight of tails hanging limply between legs and pockets disgustingly overflowing with the illicit proceeds of 350 years of mass murder, repression and economic exploitation.
~:rolleyes:
Cool down, Red Inquisitor! No body said that the US invented torture. Actually, isn't torture a bid antiquated?
Sorry Tribesman, not every American fits your preconcieved notions.
Yes they do they are all the same ~;) some people some people some people
Just in case people didn't know , in the new dictionary some people is now defined as Every American~:rolleyes:
Well you learn something new every day don't ya ~;)
That is precisely what Meneldil, I and others are trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
well the White house/State Dept says it is going to answer Europes questions over the issue ...soon...very soon ... honestly we are getting round to it but you must understand these are hard questions and we need to think up some really almost convincing answers .
It looks as if , after much thought and delibertion on the answers to Europes questions , they are ready to give a reply .
And the reply is basically....stuff you ~:eek:
I thought they had run out of paint, but it seems they haven't. And since there a still a few inches of corner left...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Painted into a corner Adrian ? They have painted the whole floor and the walls , and now are hanging from a corner of the ceiling that hasn't quite been fully painted yet and are trying to say that the ceiling is really the floor and its the rest of the world that is upside down .
Politicians, don´t you love them? Rice has begun her answering with saying "we´re saving lives". Yep, if you got to explain whether or not you have tortured people all across a continent, it´s always good to start with "we´re saving lives".
The former German Minister of Interior Otto Schily apparently new of what was going on. What a carrere: he defended terrorists (in court), prosecuted terrorists (unsuccesfully) and helped torturing them. Seems to be some kind of hate/love relationship. ~:rolleyes:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/....ap/index.html
Sounds like a clear denial.Quote:
But she also offered assurances that the United States respects the sovereignty of other countries, that it does not condone torture under any circumstances and that it does not allow detainees to be transported to countries where they will be tortured.
The Germans should have arrested her, whisked her away to a secret location in Croatia and tortured her until she came up with all the names of these secret CIA locations. Besides a few days of waterboarding should take care of the hair-do, which in itself is a severe threat to global security.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Sounds like a clear denial.
Yes a denial of what everyone knows is true . So who is she trying to convince ? herself maybe .
If as she claims they don't do torture then why try to get the CIA exempted from the ban on torture ?
If as she claims they don't send people to places where they are tortured then why do they send people to places where they are tortured .
Is there anything in her adresses from the past two days (apart from her pointing out the complicity of other governments) that cannot be picked apart and shown as rubbish by anyone with an ounce of of sense ?
Pretty much sums up the hyprocrisy of most of the European Governments doesn't?
So if you want the information your seeking - apply pressure to your own governments to find out what they know. Unless of course you don't live in a democratic country..........~:joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN article
Looks like Condi is having one of those 'Powell moments'. Asked by the President to lie, complying with a wry smile, knowing it will do neither her nor the U.S. any good in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
This thread has gone from a joke to just being ridiculous. I'm surprised by the amount of CIA insiders who posted, though. Glad to know every single thing alleged was verified by you all.
I guess the only thing Condi could've said that would appease this crowd is something like this.
"The United States agrees with every charge alleged, has outlawed itself, and it's immediate dissolution is commencing."
Condi has it tough. Whether this stuff went on or not, she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. Too bad no one in this thread seems to care what has or has not happened. It's already been decided what occured and you guys are sticking to it.
~:cheers:
In case you haven't noticed, that is exactly what has been happening over the past week. Brits, Frenchmen, Germans, Dutchmen, Italians, Spaniards all demand to know what has been going on and what their governments have known about this. The European Commission has announced that member states who are found complicit will face serious repercussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
And please don't turn this into a 'European issue', that is just nonsense. Americans too demand to know what is going on, and certain elements in the U.S. are using the present European concern as a pry bar. Did you see the story about scores of renditions leaked by CIA people to the Washington Post on Sunday, the day before Condi's European trip?
Oh, and the leaking goes on and on.
Yes, I just wrote that she has a 'Powell moment'. Maybe she should have chosen another profession, chosen to work for a different politician, or no politician at all. It is her choice and I do not pity her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
I do pity the innocent who are picked off the streets -- and streets in countries that are allied to the U.S. at that -- and deported to unknown destinations, held incommunicado and forced to 'confess' through 'waterboarding' and other torture. Hundreds of people have now 'been disappeared' as, I believe, Joseph Heller first put it in Catch-22. The only reason why the U.S. would render 'high-profile detainees' to countries that routinely practice torture is in order for them to be tortured.
I asked you before: what information has the U.S. provided to Europeans that has been useful in the fight against terrorism? If there was anything worthwhile, we would know. We know about dozens of plots that were foiled by European agencies, who have more human intelligence and better sources in the Arab and muslim world than the United States.
I suspect that the main reason why European governments and their secret services have been cooperating with U.S. intelligence is that they want to stay posted about what the opposition is up to. The opposition being the United States, not Al Qaeda. European governments are more concerned about future war plans made in Washington than those made in Afghan caves. And rightly so.
It was a joke, you missed my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
More hard evidence that this whole thread has been based on. Keep it coming! ~:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Adrian, I already conceded that you know more than me. You and Tribesman and all the other ex-CIA employees who posted here. You obviously have had access to top secret documents and have seen all the hard evidence necessary to find all parties guilty already.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I'm just surprised with all your vast and intimate knowledge of the inner workings of all these intelligence organizations, that an ignorant pleb like me, who is just trying to follow the investigations in the media as best as she can, is even allowed into this discussion.
:bow:
A citizen of the USA suggesting that European governments aren't being honest with their citizens? ~:joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Nice drama act. Keep it up and you might win an award some day ~:cheers:Quote:
I'm just surprised with all your vast and intimate knowledge of the inner workings of all these intelligence organizations, that an ignorant pleb like me, who is just trying to follow the investigations in the media as best as she can, is even allowed into this discussion.
It is your fellow citizens themselves who keep most of the information coming. They don't need me to tell them what's what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
A most encouraging thing about this whole torture business is that more and more Americans are speaking up and demanding to know the truth, that American soldiers are speaking up, that intelligence people are speaking up and that politicians are acting on it. John McCain has done a fantastic job.
There is Army Captain Ian Fishback of the 82nd Airborne Division who wrote a public letter to McCain saying that White House and Pentagon policies have cultivated torture on the battlefield. For 17 months, Fishback sought clarification from his superiors and got none. 'I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder,' he wrote to McCain in September: 'I and troops under my command witnessed some of these abuses in both Afghanistan and Iraq. It is morally inconsistent with the Constitution and justice in war. If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession.'
There is Army Spc. Tony Lagouranis who worked as an interrogator at Abu Ghraib and in a special intelligence unit in Iraq in 2004. After many failed attempts to report wrongdoing he became frustrated and went to the media. 'It's all over Iraq,' he said on Frontline in late September: 'The worst stuff I saw was from the detaining units who would torture people in their homes. They were using things like burns. They would smash people's feet with the back of an axe-head. They would break bones, ribs.' At the root of the abuse, he said, was a 'frustration that we weren't getting good intel' and therefore the treatment of prisoners degraded into 'pure sadism.'Where has my lady been lately? A lot of real ex-CIA employees have already spoken, on the record. Here is an interesting article that quotes long-standing CIA operatives who are knowledgeable about torture. They also address the point that Lagouranis was maming about the futility and self-serving aspect of torture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Merle Pribbenow for instance, a 27-year veteran of clandestine CIA operations, makes a very convincing case why torture is counterproductive. Not only will the victim in the end ‘confess’ anything his torturer wants to hear, but the torture becomes an end in itself.
And there’s the former CIA top interrogator in Saigon, Frank Snepp, who states that the acceptance of torture within the service is a sign of a serious problem: torture is not only inhumane, it gets in the way of the actual process of information gathering.
They are all worried about the institutionalisation of torture in the American intelligence community. As one of the, a 30-year veteran, says: 'I think as late as a decade ago, there were enough of us around who had enough experience to constitute the majority view, which was that this was simply not the way we did business, and for good reasons of practicality or morality. It's not just about what it does or doesn't do, but about who, and where, we as a country want to be.'
So no, I don't think Americans need AdrianII to tell them what is going down with these black sites and saltpits and stuff. They are quite capable of doing that all by themselves.
:bow:
So is it an European issue or is it not? It seems that with this statement that it is indeed an European Issue also.....Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Oh I see it as a issue that affects both the United States and Europe. With several nations playing dirty.Quote:
And please don't turn this into a 'European issue', that is just nonsense. Americans too demand to know what is going on, and certain elements in the U.S. are using the present European concern as a pry bar. Did you see the story about scores of renditions leaked by CIA people to the Washington Post on Sunday, the day before Condi's European trip?
Oh, and the leaking goes on and on.
Agreed! :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Right back at you - European Nations have a longer history and more checkered past of not being honest with their citizens then the United States does.............Quote:
Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder
Maybe that's why ~;)Quote:
European Nations have a longer history