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what you guys think of this?
I personally feel that my country did the right thing as our harsh laws have given us a virtually durg-free environment and we have no worries of pushers handing drugs to kids on the streets. Also he is a drug trafficker and if we don't deal with him harshly, people like him may start using singapore as a stop over and ruining the socially. So I stand by my government decision of a death sentence.
Link
I disagree wtih the death penalty, I think a mandatory death penalty is inhumane, however I respect Singapores sovereignty and their choices in setting their penalties.
I agree with the death penalty, just not for drug crimes. I think it should be reserved for particularly gruesome murders/rapes/assaults. Then again, from what I know, the policy has worked wonders in your country and I'm an advocate of the punishments acting as deterrents too.
I hope they give his mother the visit with him before he dies though, it's a bit callous if they don't.
I don't like the TWUs' threats one bit.
I can't imagine this is really going to help Singapore a lot with Australian tourism and trade, but it's hardly as if their laws are a mystery to anyone. If it was all more dubius, eg he claimed they weren't his, then I'd be more suspicious.
I disagree with the death penalty in principle in all cases, but I can't see any reason why this person should not expect to have the laws of Singapore applied to him just as they apply to anyone else.
Er... I have never seen or heard of 'drug pushers' handing drugs to kids on the streets in England, and we don't kill people for selling drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
Prohibition and harsh sentences like this merely drive drugs further underground and create injustices.
Personally, I think most drugs should be legal anyways. People should be able to do w/ themselves as they please. I'm sure the guy did what he did w/ a very concious effort; I wouldn't imagine smuggling drugs in would be very easy. He knew what he was doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
It may not happen in your country but in the past before a concerted effort against drugs was made, pushers were caught outside the gates of some schools and we have herion addicts as young as 12 years of age.
What you mean by injustices?
Those are drug traffickers and they are doing harm to our soicety
As for this I am not too sure because prison rules do not allow physical contact for those on death row and their familiesQuote:
Originally Posted by lugh
I would say that state murder is doing harm to your society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
I think it is the right decision.:knight:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
I am against the Death Penalty in principle, so I am against this one.
People who buy drugs, are not forced to buy them. People who sell drugs are just like the people who sold "Alcohol" during the Prohibition. Just criminals not murderers. (Tho some did kill to protect their patch, just like drig pushers today)
He had not killed anyone.
I am also principally opposed to the death penalty, but even if I were not I would be of the opinion that it is disproportionate and cruel in this particular case because Nguyen has not killed. I shun Singapore whenever I fly Eastward because two of my fellow countrymen have been convicted there on trumped-up drugs charges that were clearly politically motivated, and since Singapore is not a free country there is virtually no recourse in such cases. If the country gets its house in order at some future date, I will reconsider.
singapore is a strange place... although i dont agree with thier laws, i know that if i step foot in the country i am bound by them, so i have to be careful, its a shame others dont realise this as well
Actually it's a very good question: Why am I bound to the laws of another country?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrowan
On the subject. Everything was said about the irrational and authoritarian approach to the drugs subject that all countries around the world seem to fall into, so I won't repeat my thoughts on that matter. Regarding the death penalty, it seems that many systems have stucked on previous human generations, and still use the excuse of vengeance to transmite either state incompetence or society failures to the individual as a form of purge. The reality is different, and death penalty actually "ends a life" thing that under no circumstances can be done to any person whatsoever, but doing it as an example in a case of drugs? It's terrible, if I were the judge on that case (or the congresist if any) I don't know if I'll be able to sleep at night... :no:
Yes, thats why we also give death sentence to themQuote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Because you weren't born in the US ? :hide:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Anyway, death sentence very bad, drugs trafficing bad, drugs trafficing in Singapore very stupid
It boild down to what purpose you think this aspect of the justice system serves. I nthis case, it's as much about detterece as punishment. There's good indications that the crackdwon by Singapore with the death penalty has reducedthe level of trafficking. Personally, if the death penalty reduced the level of pre-meditated murder or serial rape for example, in Ireland, I'd be all for it. Then again I also support the stripping of citizenship and constitutional rights for criminals too, so I'm a tad on the right in these things.Quote:
The reality is different, and death penalty actually "ends a life" thing that under no circumstances can be done to any person whatsoever, but doing it as an example in a case of drugs? It's terrible, if I were the judge on that case (or the congresist if any) I don't know if I'll be able to sleep at night...
All this also applies to anyone saying he shouldn't die since he hasn't killed, it's a deterrent more than punishment.
The first time. Heroin is an agonist opioid, it creates a physical reduction in endorphin and the short story of this is that this is what creates withdrawal. Most other drugs are antagonist, and as a result less addictive, for example cocaine. heroine creates an actual physical dependency, not a psychological one.Quote:
People who buy drugs, are not forced to buy them.
The stuff is pure evil, I'd much rather the US moved their Columbian crop spraying operation to Afghanistan and start cracking down on opium production rather than coke.
Come on Singapore is not that a scary place, it is really friendly as long as you don't break the law ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I am not familiar with this, can you tell me more about it ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
And as long as you do not oppose the money-grubbing Lee clan. As a journalist I would be breaking the law by merely putting my paper to paper. So no, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
I am not against Death penalty by principles. I am against foor good real reasons: What happend if you execute an innocent? Don't tell me that only the poepel you are sure they are guilty are killed because I hope that nobody will put a personn in jail for 25 years if there is no real proof the accused is guilty...
Sorry for thr spelling mistake, but I am tired... Worked all Saturdays and one Sunday this month... Need money before Xmas
I think he was just executed. Its 5:31am in Singapore. The newspaper stated that he would be executed before dawn on Friday.
I would have preferred him sent back to Australia to serve a life sentence. :bow:
Though I am a far right winger American and definitely believe in the death penalty for violent crimes; i.e. rape, murder. . I think that the death penalty for this man is a little extreeme.
Is this the mans first time being cuaght with drugs in his possession, what other crimes has he commited? If it is his first offense ten to twenty years would have been just. If not not a long sentence, but not death for drugs.
Huh?~DQuote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
Death penalty is a rest of vengeance like mentality. Justice is not about vengeance. It doesn't serves a purpose of general prevention, you've life in prison for that (even if it's wrong) at least you can take the person out of jail you cannot bring him back from death. Death penalty for utilitarian purposes is even more terrible, I hope to never see it here, in fact it's unconstitutional here.Quote:
It boild down to what purpose you think this aspect of the justice system serves. I nthis case, it's as much about detterece as punishment. There's good indications that the crackdwon by Singapore with the death penalty has reducedthe level of trafficking. Personally, if the death penalty reduced the level of pre-meditated murder or serial rape for example, in Ireland, I'd be all for it. Then again I also support the stripping of citizenship and constitutional rights for criminals too, so I'm a tad on the right in these things.
All this also applies to anyone saying he shouldn't die since he hasn't killed, it's a deterrent more than punishment.
I'm anti-drug and I never took drugs; however, I know some friends who have taken drugs and distribute them to other students. They are actually good people who need help, not a punishment that's like a revenge. You shouldn't be afraid of those people. They're very different from the people who forced China to import opium many years ago. ~:grouphug:
Don't mess with drugs in Asia. If you do, expect to die (officially or unofficially).
Agree...Quote:
Originally Posted by solypsist
I was chatting to my friends this morning about the news. As mothers, some of us were thinking, whose responsibility was it, didn't the mother know that her son was on debt and the other one was trying to repay by drug-trafficking? And who is the death sentence really punishing? The one who is being excuted or the ones who love him and watch he die?
When I studied in the U.S., I was surprised by how many students took drugs. My roommate's friend shared the drugs with his other friends. I was annoyed when they came over and got high all night; but I never wished them to get executed. They're all people like us. I think Singapore doesn't execute the buyers, but I still think the punishment on the seller is excessive.
I understand the respect one must have on another country's law even if I disagree with it. Actually, Singapore is a wealthy city with low tax. Singapore's laws are not bad when compared to some other countries. Afghanistan under the Taliban comes to mind. I would've gladly broke the Taliban's laws if I was able to get away with it and live (and if the Taliban was still in power).
Btw- Japan and South Korea doesn't execute the people who distribute drugs, and very few of their citizens take drugs.
I think Singapores society is messed up if it values life so little. Maybe drugs would do you some good.
Singapore is all about happy facism, its just raising its head again.
Yes, most people think that the punishment is excessive but only with such a way can we send the message over to those traffickers that we really mean business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
I agree that our laws are harsh but by comparing it to the Taliban reigme is way overboard as I believe most of our laws are similar to britain except the death penalty and chewing gum ban etc. And because of our laws I can walk home in the middle of the night without fear of being mug or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
I don't think Japan is that drug free as for Korea I am not too sure but one think is certain they are no where near the Golden Triangle.
We value life more then anything that's why we have such harsh punishment on drug traffickers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Efrem
you don't show value for life by killing people over something so small as drugs. That is holding the value of life too low. A human life is more importtant than some drugs.
While I disagree with the death penalty in principal and find it completely disproportionate to the crime in this case it's hardly as if Van Nguyen didn't know what he was getting into; he attempted to smuggle drugs into a country with strict drug controls where he could expect an execution if he were caught, and that's exactly what he got. A remarkably elaborate way of committing suicide, really.
As for the punishment itself as related to the crime it was applied to, thoroughly barbaric.
Sorry I didn't mean it that way. I didn't mean that Singapore's laws were like the Taliban regime. I was trying to say that there are other countries with laws that are worse than Singapore. I put the order of the sentences wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
I've been to Singapore and I felt safe there; but I don't think drug addicts will mug anyone just because they're high.
What do you mean small, drugs destory thousands of lives and that is not a small matter and like you said human life is more important then drugs so by giving such a harsh punishment people will learn not to risk their life for drugs by trying to use Singapore as a transit point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Efrem
Hahaha so it's all a misunderstanding, no problem ~;) I don't mean getting mugged by addicts but more of not getting rob or hurt by some street gang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Someone has to die, it be the drugtaker or seller. No big deal.
He might not have killed some directly, be he could certainly have done it indirectly.
Not directly focused at you Efrem but this BS liberal attitude is more destructive than a nuclear bomb! Nruyen is a piece of crap drug trafficker who was stupid enough to break a law that he knew had a death penalty punishment. He should be burned on a steak with a big sign next to it that says, “Drug traffickers stay the hell out!”Quote:
Originally Posted by Efrem
Human life is valuable, that’s why it needs to be protected from the evils that are out there. Do you invite the wolf that just ate all your chickens into your house and give it a hug and tell it not to do it again? NO, you shoot the mother f’er and save your family from having their faces chewed off. Singapore’s laws are harsh but I’ll bet they wont have as much drug trafficking problems in the future. The despicable part is that Nguyen and others like him and worse break laws that force the good people of the world to follow thru with punishments that shouldn’t have to be used. Screw them, IMO they deserve the punishments they get.
The death penalty is bad, war against terrorists is wrong, drugs are ok, we shouldn’t say merry Christmas, wal-mart is the devil, suicide bombers just want an escape from the pain, and gay marriage is ok! I feel like I just woke up in the twilight zone. Stick a fork in me… I’m done!
:hanged:
In trafficking drugs, he did not harm another human. His actions may have enabled people to harm themselves, but he is not the force killing someone who OD's. Since he is not directly the force killing them, the action the government did to him is disproportionate, and greater, to the action he did to society.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
Korea and Japan has one of the lowest execution rates in the world, partly because they have very low crime rates. So I'm sure there are ways to prevent crime without the execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
No one has to die, ever, that kind of logic is contradictory with the premise of no more deaths. That only shows a disvalour for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
That doesn't matter. That way I could blame his father for having him, it's not an apropiate cause. Drugs don't kill more than tabaco or alcohol, many do it less than the last. This kind of aproach is barbaric and authoritarian there's no other name to it. What amuses me the most is that kind of hypotetical thinking "he might this, he might that", law cares about reality not what may happen. :no:Quote:
He might not have killed some directly, be he could certainly have done it indirectly.
Oh, I admit that the penalty is harsh but it is what it is. People could lobby to have it changed (I love my democracy but Singapore is a different ball game) but for now it is what it is and IMO it is harsh but just. Someone doesn’t need to kill to be worthy of the death penalty, they just need to be an evil. With the situation in Singapore it is just like seeing a giant sign on an electric wire that says “Danger you will die if you touch this wire” then having someone touch it and complain that they are dead. Don’t touch the wire, don’t traffic drugs, and don’t force good people to enforce deadly punishments.:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
The world has a population problem, get over it.
So killing a couple of dozen people a year changes that?
No. He gives drugs to a drug taker that could die of it, or he get caught and killed; someone usually dies; this time the seller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Erm, that doesn`t matter at all if it is the case; the kill ratio is what counts. Do not come here and tell me that drinking alcohol or smoking tobaco is just as dangerous as taking drugs. The drug seller either kills people, or ruins their life, hence this death penalty.Quote:
Drugs don't kill more than tabaco or alcohol, many do it less than the last.
We only have death punishment for serious crime like murder, kinapping and drug trafficing. For the other crimes they are punished by caning, jail terms and fine so i don't think our low crime rate is largely due to execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
I have to disagree here because i feel that the crime he comitted will do more harm to the society then what we do to him. His action will destory lives of thousands and we punished him for it. I know that you may think that we could just jail him or something, there is no need to kill but that is the law of my country and by comitting an offence on our soil he is subjected to our law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
You still don't understand it. First not always drugs kill, actually you can't die from abuse of marihuana. Second that doesn't matter for a penal case, but if you go to the moment when the police finds about him, not always he'll end death, but even then how is that this justifies capital punishment...It really escapes all logic.~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
I see that many people have problems to separate matters and treat them logically. The crime of the drug seller is to just sell the drug, not to kill, those are two separete actions, to separate moments that have two different disvalues. And you're right kill ratio doesn't matter, because all of this should be legal, wheter it's heroin or marihuana, in fact as said previously it's, but the problem is that people tend to forget that the Constitution is the primary law, above all others, of course I don't know what the Constitution of Singapore states, but if it suprimes individual freedoms, then excuse me but I'll stay here thanks.Quote:
Erm, that doesn`t matter at all if it is the case; the kill ratio is what counts. Do not come here and tell me that drinking alcohol or smoking tobaco is just as dangerous as taking drugs. The drug seller either kills people, or ruins their life, hence this death penalty.
Also I didn't know that "ruining a life" is a crime...LOL it's amazing how people see criminal law, they're capable of extending the states power to provide for their happines and selfconformity.~:rolleyes:
"Some 420 people have been hanged in Singapore since 1991, mostly for drug trafficking, an Amnesty International 2004 report said. That gives the country of 4.4 million people the highest execution rate in the world relative to population."Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
-SINGAPORE (Reuters)
In addition to that, there are people in Singapore who appose the execution, unless that news is wrong.
Singapore is a ruthless pseudo-fascist country that does not possess democracy and rigidly controls its own society. Nonetheless, it is a much better place than its surrounding countries, unfortunately, and ruthless penalty on criminals play its part. Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, India, Vietnam, etc, are all screwed up on various levels. Australia excepted. Most of the Asians nation (except Japan, perhaps), notably, however, are not-too liberal at all, if we base "liberal" on the American notion, and they have harsh penalties; if a criminal is ever caught, of course, considering the corruption.
I disagree on death penalty on principle, even if I have no mercy on drug"gies." Those who trade drugs should be on life sentence, but they should live. Those who claim hypocrisy of society when compare drugs to alcohol: I say I hate alcohol as much as drugs, but, unfortunately, it being mainstream protects it from the minority (really, really minor) attempts at ending its widespread and legal distribution. One only needs to see the failure of the Prohibition.
Ah, I could expect myself thrown out of the .org soon for hating beer. ~:joker:
Gentlemen, if our country don't impose death penalty as a deterant to would be offenders, we'll be seeing more similar tragic cases like this:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848092.stm
" No Parents should bury their children " does this quote sounds familiar? ~;)
This is why I'm so anti-conservative.Quote:
Nruyen [sic] is a piece of crap drug trafficker who was stupid enough to break a law that he knew had a death penalty punishment. He should be burned on a steak with a big sign next to it that says, “Drug traffickers stay the hell out!”
Human life is valuable
While I agree he seemingly made a stupid mistake (I don't don't know all the details and neither does Yesdachi), his life is valuable. Did he receive a trial with due process? Were his rights acknowledged? I thought Americans cared about these rights.
In my opinion, Yesdachi does not always consider human life valuable.
I think that it should be mentioned that the ASEAN countries where under heavy pressure 40 years ago due to all the drugs coming from the area. The golden triangle was filled with warlords that lived of drug trafficking and had political powers. The imposement of hefty penalties was due to weak law enforcement so a statement needed to be made. Even if I am against the death penalty, it worked and most offenders these days comes from countries like Australia, where you don't feel the fear.
In Asia a human life is worth much less than we are used to. It's sad, but reality.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848092.stm
Nice try, but there was recently a Police investigation into this as there was more than a suspicion of foul play. The family suspect that she was 'offed' because she was going to spill the beans on her junkie mates and suppliers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Stor...275540,00.html
Looks very iffy to me at least.
I think it has much more to do with the nature of tribal society where the individual is subordinate to the clan, tribe or nation. In Asia, this demand of subordination is reinforced by totalitarian leaders and by strong remnants of confucianism in a number of East-Asian countries. Individual pleasures divert the individual's attention and activity away from the group/tribe/wider society.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
Secondly, totalitarian societies try to eradicate drugs because they are stimulants of the human imagination and as such subvert the hold of the thought police over society.
And thirdly, drug traffic usually fosters rival centers of power and corruption that obstruct the official power and corruption rackets run by the powers that be (for instance in Thailand or Pakistan).
Firstly, all smoking can kill, logic should tell you that. Secondly, when someone sells (I`m talking about heavy drugs like heroin, wich I assume Van Ngyen was trafficking) drugs, the seller is leading the buyer closer to death and is fully aware of it. The buyer might die of an OD of what he bought. This is what one might call attempted murderer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Ever heard about common sense?Quote:
I see that many people have problems to separate matters and treat them logically. The crime of the drug seller is to just sell the drug, not to kill, those are two separete actions, to separate moments that have two different disvalues.
Argumenting about individual freedom.... :no: I don`t see why people should be able to ruin themselves if they want to, that`s just silly. They might be able to drag others with them into selfdestruction too. So much for individual freedom.Quote:
And you're right kill ratio doesn't matter, because all of this should be legal, wheter it's heroin or marihuana, in fact as said previously it's, but the problem is that people tend to forget that the Constitution is the primary law, above all others, of course I don't know what the Constitution of Singapore states, but if it suprimes individual freedoms, then excuse me but I'll stay here thanks.
Whoa; rape isn`t much else than "ruining a life". Imagine a society where as long as you don`t murder someone or doesn`t steal something, you can do whatever you want.Quote:
Also I didn't know that "ruining a life" is a crime...LOL it's amazing how people see criminal law, they're capable of extending the states power to provide for their happines and selfconformity.~:rolleyes:
Again that's all you've assumptions. It's wrong to kill a man under any circumstances, it's even worse for the state to do it and it's even worse if you only have assumptions. That's an attempted murder if the seller represented the possibility of the buyer dying because of the product. However that's not the case here, and not even death justifies another death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
I agree with you common sense is valuable, but it must be corrected in order to understand things. Specially things that have so terrible concecuences as an authoritarian law and capital punishment.Quote:
Ever heard about common sense?
I've explained this many times. Have you seen the movie 1984 (the one based on Orwell's book, I think it was "1984" but correct me if I'm wrong). The question that you've to ask yourself is that if you'll like to live in that world. The constitution however already protects the contrary values. The state provides for your freedom, and only that, the happiness of you or any other is unimportant princiapally because it's subjective. State doesn't have to look at morals it has to look at the free exercise of our RIGHTS, not obligations. And again assumptions and hipotesis "they might this, they might that..." I might be a terrorist, however I'm still free.Quote:
Argumenting about individual freedom.... :no: I don`t see why people should be able to ruin themselves if they want to, that`s just silly. They might be able to drag others with them into selfdestruction too. So much for individual freedom.
So for you any crime deserves capital punishment or jail? However rape isn't punished because you "ruined a life" it's punished so you and others will not repeat that conduct again. Ruining a life is a vague concept at best.Quote:
Whoa; rape isn`t much else than "ruining a life". Imagine a society where as long as you don`t murder someone or doesn`t steal something, you can do whatever you want.
Related crime that still points to the same issue---> drugs. Thanks for the link, it give further support to why such deterant should be in place to deal with drug trafficking ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Its not the death sentence that makes Singapore a nice society. After all all the surrounding countries have the death sentence.
The good standard of living in Singapore is due to its economy. Strong economy, based on knowledge skills leading to a well educated wealthy society. Compare that with other local economies that rely on oil wealth or minerals... those societies don't need knowledge and don't have a middle class as a result because they rely on primary goods and being sweatshops.
Asia's 'grim view on drug crime'Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianne Bray, CNN
1. It might even be so easy that they are so many.... ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
2. That would explain the US drug policy.... ~:joker:
3. As in point 2.... ~:cool:
Singapore lives of it's airport, harbor and banking systems. All these parts are providing services to the countries around. Trade is made through Singapore since it's so easy to smuggle goods from there and the banks keeps all the corruption money with high secrecy. The threat against Singpore is that one day will the nations around get their act together and not need Singapore anymore...... ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Singapore is in a very good location as far as trade lanes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bmolsson
Also the other nations would have to get their act together and based on past issues it may take awhile... like them all becoming modern, educated, secular states ~:joker:
Well, they are. If you been in Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur lately, you would know what I mean..... ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
They are indeed scaling up and quickly... however will the societies adapt to a more educated middle class... and will the middle class adapt to a constrictive religious society.
KL is in a interesting situation, they have an oppourtunity to become a tech hub if they choose to do so. They are going down that line... however will it be thwarted by some of the hardline attitudes in Malaysia?
I think the high execution is partly due to the fact that we enforce our laws strictly and give no quarter to the offencers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Yes, there are some people in Singapore who oppose to execution but that is just really a small part of the population and i don't think that it will have much of an impact as major of the population still agree to this form of punishment.
[Devils Advocate :devil: ]
No quarter? It is a Judicial system that does not have the power to choose an approriate punishment for a crime. A judgement without the benefit of judicial choice is not justice, its a shortcut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
Minor or Major it does not matter as Singapore does not a democracy make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow
.
I'm pro- death penalty, pro-corporal punishment (yes, including the cutting off of hands) and pro-forced labour vs. imprisonment.
Singapore seems to be following a consistent way with the first two. Anybody remember when they beat the rogue who vandalized cars parked in the street with bamboo sticks, the TV broadcasting it live?
.
Malaysia is a unique balance act. Political power with the pribumi and the economical power with the chinese. The Northern provinces are a threat to the whole region. I believe that Southern Thailand, Southern Phillipines and Aceh in Indonesia will be a similar "threat" when the polarization finish in those countries as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
The middle class in ASEAN is far larger than you think. Definition is a yearly income of about USD 10,000 and that equals about 25 million in Indonesia. That is larger than Malaysia and Singapore.....
No, it's not a shortcut but a firm way of handling drug traffickingQuote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Althrough Singapore is not as democracy as US, we do have some influence on our government, as most singaporeans support the death penalty it is very unlike to be an issue at the next general election and if it is not an issue then things will remain the same
He didn’t make a “stupid mistake” he intentionally broke the law. He was caught with almost 400 grams of heroin*, more than 26,000 doses! That’s not a mistake; a mistake is having a pair of nail clippers in your travel bag, not taping a bag of H on your back and trying to sneak thru security! You can’t even admit he committed a crime, you have to say he made a mistake. That’s why I’m so anti-liberal (edit anti –liberal on crime and punishment. I am rather liberal on other topics.). Why try to sugar coat his actions and stand up for him when you know he is a criminal? Everyone should be mad at him for forcing Singapore’s hand. Mistake… pffft.~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
As best as I can tell from what I have read, he did receive a fair trial with plenty of time for investigating and extradition attempts as he was arrested in December of 2002.
As to my value of human life, it is practically the most valuable thing there is, but, and you knew there would be a but, IMO there is a line that people can cross where they change from humans to monsters who cant separate what’s good from what’s bad, they let greed, rage and self gratification overtake the parts that make them human. These are the people that I don’t care for at all. The murders, rapists, molesters, and hardcore drug dealers/traffickers lives have no value to me whatsoever.:knight:
Edit to add anti –liberal on crime and punishment.
*All you need is 15 grams to merit a death penalty in Singapore.
Similarly, if there is a law against being Jewish, it is a Jew's fault for breaking that law. That line of reasoning seems silly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
And still, you're telling me that moving 400g of heroin is equal to, or bigger than, killing an innoncent? Any punishment that is greater than the action committed is inherently unjust. It has nothing to do with how the punishment was carried out, in this case, or with how it was applied. There is no way a reasonable person can say that moving 26,000 doses of heroin, in itself, is equivilant to killing an innocent.
You can't help being jewish though, you can stop being a drug trafficer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
He should take 400grams of heroin then...Quote:
Any punishment that is greater than the action committed is inherently unjust.
Being Jewish isn’t really a choice, well I guess it could be if you decided to become Jewish but for the most part it isn’t but trafficking drugs is. He made a conscience, thought-out decision to break the law. Your comparison doesn’t make sense to me.~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Although not as violent as murder, I think that drug trafficking is every bit as criminal and the punishment could be the same. Hardcore drugs like heroin are very destructive drugs that lead to addiction and the corruption of good people. I would almost consider a distributor/trafficker of hardcore drugs in the same way I view someone distributing/trafficking small pox or anthrax. I think I am a reasonable person, perhaps it’s just a matter of perspective.
Pretty funny doc_bean, about taking 400 grams of H!~:joker:
Actually, murder usually happens in a fit of rage, or as a form of self defense (even revenge is a form of self defense too, in a way). So drug trafficing is usually worse than murder in that it is definetly a concious decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
:bow:
It is[ the case here. Drugs kills. Maybe even worse, they make you a wreck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
What would you prefer of; living a (relative) long life as a narcotic wreck, with a high risk of getting AIDS, and always struggle to get more money for more heroin; or death?
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I've explained this many times. Have you seen the movie 1984 (the one based on Orwell's book, I think it was "1984" but correct me if I'm wrong). The question that you've to ask yourself is that if you'll like to live in that world.
No, I haven`t seen that movie.
Morale and ethics vary from individ to individ, so someone has find out what`s right, and what`s wrong. There`s the constitution; that`s created by the state, and made sure is followed, by the state.Quote:
The constitution however already protects the contrary values. The state provides for your freedom, and only that, the happiness of you or any other is unimportant princiapally because it's subjective. State doesn't have to look at morals it has to look at the free exercise of our RIGHTS, not obligations. And again assumptions and hipotesis "they might this, they might that..." I might be a terrorist, however I'm still free.
You might be a terrorist, but you are not caught as one.
Or economical punishment.Quote:
So for you any crime deserves capital punishment or jail?
Yes, that`s correct. However, it`s correct for any other crime also.Quote:
However rape isn't punished because you "ruined a life" it's punished so you and others will not repeat that conduct again.
You justified it on the grounds that he understood it was a crime. I applied the model of reasoning to something we could both agree would be bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
Nguyen was not even dealing, they only convicted him of trafficking. They didn't even show he intended to sell the drugs in Singapore. I fail to see such extreme evil in the sole act of moving drugs. Anthrax and small pox are fatal diseases forced on a population. A dealer does not mug someone on the street and stick them w/ a dose of heroin, so that they are always addicted. Personally, I've never had heroin, so I cannot say how addictive it is, but I have had drugs which are considered in the same light, and I'm not addicted. From my experiences, it takes a lot of personal abuse to become addicted to some of those drugs, and I feel that there is a popular misconception.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
I don't see the link between being Jewish and being a druig trafficer though.
...Is anyone going to risk moving drugs through a country like Singapore when they could go through less dangerous places, or directly to the destination country ? Let's be sensible here.Quote:
Nguyen was not even dealing, they only convicted him of trafficking. They didn't even show he intended to sell the drugs in Singapore.
Good for you, the majority of people do get addicted pretty fast to heroin.Quote:
Personally, I've never had heroin, so I cannot say how addictive it is, but I have had drugs which are considered in the same light, and I'm not addicted.
I know people with addictive personalities who can get addicted to anything and people who never seem to get addicted to anything, most people fall somewhere in between. Heroin will probably get most people hooked.Quote:
From my experiences, it takes a lot of personal abuse to become addicted to some of those drugs, and I feel that there is a popular misconception.
It was hypothetical. The justification was, "he understood what he was doing was illegal." The retort was that knowing something is illegal doesn't make it any more just, in some cases. If being Jewish were illegal, one would not justify a punishment on the grounds that the Jew in question knew being Jewish was illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
It was not shown, and conjecture is not grounds for execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
I'm not asking for your personal approval, but thanks. It was an example that, contrary to popular belief, the addiction rates are far from 100%. In fact, I don't know anyone personally who has gotten addicted to drugs, and I know a substansial amount of drug using people. I have enough experience to tell me that how one uses a drug most often determines whether or not they will get addicted.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
Edit: Some statistics, "[The conversion rate of cigarettes]
(i.e., from any use to dependence) was similar to conversion rates for use of cocaine
(24.5%) and heroin (20.1%) (5 )" (MMWR).
You really don't see the fundamental difference between doing something and being something ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Trafficing drugs is an action, being jewish isn't.
Regardless, possesion and traffcing are illegal in Singapore, that was what he was convicted for. the reason they are also illegal and not just the selling of drugs is because the actions are related (almost 100%) and the possesion is far easier to prove.Quote:
It was not shown, and conjecture is not grounds for execution.
I've known a few addicts. Not a pretty thing. But apparently there's a huge amount of 'recreational' drug users (non-addicts) in Belgium, including a ton of cocaine users and some heroin users.Quote:
I'm not asking for your personal approval, but thanks. It was an example that, contrary to popular belief, the addiction rates are far from 100%. In fact, I don't know anyone personally who has gotten addicted to drugs, and I know a substansial amount of drug using people. I have enough experience to tell me that how one uses a drug most often determines whether or not they will get addicted.
Actually, being Jewish is an action... To beleive in the principles of Judaism is to be Jewish... I could have compared it playing billiards if you want to talk about physical actions; cancel that, being Jewish involves many physical actions anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
To admit it is a harsh punishment is to admit it is unjust. And deterrance is not a good basis for punishment in society. There are many things which could be used for deterrence very effectively. There is no question that quartering people for stealing would decrease theft rates, but we do not do it because it is unjust punishment.
We regulate religious actions over here (okay mostly to annoy the muslims when they want to sacrifice animals). The actions of being jewish however, don't normally affect other people, whereas trafficing drugs leads to selling drugs, leads to drug addicts (most of the time with heroin anyway), which leads to drug related crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
I disagree, but then I live in a messed up place when it comes to punishing criminals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
Depends on what was stolen from whom imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori