Mullahs follow in the footsteps of Alexander's army

Iran's dam will sink tomb of Cyrus the Great

Iran, Aug. 31 – Iran is building a dam which once completed will destroy the 2,500-year-old historic ruins of tomb of the first Achaemenian king of ancient Persia.

The Sayvand Dam being constructed in the central Fars province will inevitably cause river waters to submerge Persepolis, the capital of ancient Persia, and Pasargard, the site of the mausoleum of the first Persian conqueror Cyrus the Great.

The dam which is near completion is some eight kilometres from Pasargard and 50 kilometres from Persepolis, according to an official in Iran’s Cultural Heritage Organisation.

The dam is to start operation in early 2006.

Water built up from the dam would destroy the historic sites which contain magnificent artefacts about ancient Iran’s heritage and have buried underground much of Persian civilisations’ hidden secrets.

Cyrus the Great, believed to have been the first king to have introduced a universal declaration of human rights, lived from 580-529 BC

According to a report by Cultural Heritage News agency, the dispute between officials of the Power Ministry and those of Iran–s Cultural Heritage and Tourism Organization can only be resolved through the intervention of top-ranking authorities.

The head of the Pasargad archeological complex, Babak Kian stated that due to the construction of Sivand Dam eight kilometers from Bolaghi Pass, most of the historical monuments are threatened with submersion.
The 18-kilometer Bolaghi Pass is located 84 kilometers from Pasargad site and is considered part of it. According to many experts, the pass is the most important archeological route of the country and served as a link between Pasargad and Persepolis.

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:no:

Same thing that Hasankeyf is facing. I don't know what is currently happening in Hasankeyf though.

People can not be that much arrogant and selfish. I can't help myself swearing so hard when such things happen. Do we always have to destroy the heritage of the ancestors for our own progress ("Progress" is open to discussion) ?

<backroom mode>
Maybe they wouldn't have built this dam if they allowed to develop their nuclear program
<\backroom mode>

We can't keep every site of historic importance, there's little room as it is, it's a shame, but the needs of the current people (electricity) surely outweigh the 'wants' of a history geeks.

:hide:

Sad story.

This news is from 31 august and the dam will be ready in early 2006? Those Iranians are damn quick builders!
Anyway, a sad story indeed, sounds comparable to former events in Egypt and China. doc_bean I think is, unfortunately, right in the fact that we cannot preserve everything. (Just remember how much historical treasures in Europe already have been destroyed, and are still being destroyed, on purpose or not, every day). Did Iran organise some special archeological mega-survey before the final destruction?

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Бα&#223;t@rдς
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Originally Posted by doc_bean

<backroom mode>
Maybe they wouldn't have built this dam if they allowed to develop their nuclear program
<\backroom mode>

We can't keep every site of historic importance, there's little room as it is, it's a shame, but the needs of the current people (electricity) surely outweigh the 'wants' of a history geeks.

:hide:

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Considering they have gone on anyway I think the issue of the Iranian nuclear program is of no point here.

If we destroy the few things that truly define our ancentry then in time we will not know who we are...

In Sweden they used to knock down all the old buildings in their towns and cities, and now I know why when I visit there that I have felt their cities and towns to be somewhat impersonal. They have no heritage... they are just places where you live now. That is sad.

As noted we do not live off bread alone.

Well-put Kraxis. If they destory their links to the past it detaches Iran from its history, and a very rich history it is. It's like the mistreatment of the ruins of Babylon on Iraq.

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Originally Posted by Brutus

Those Iranians are damn quick builders!

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Not quick dam builders?

I’ve heard this rumour before.

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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

I’ve heard this rumour before.

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Please tell me that it is not true, and just a rumour. I would like to see Persepolis some day... Stand among the pillars, imagine the grandness and splendor of Xerxes' court. Or ven how Alexander and his buddies 'accidentally' began burning the carpets for fun. And the frieses of the Immortals and all kinds of emmisaries... Me want, but me no get.

I fully second Kraxis. Dammit, I want to be able to visit the tomb of the greatest ruler of all time!

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Considering they have gone on anyway I think the issue of the Iranian nuclear program is of no point here.

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I was in backroom mode ! I didn't need a point !

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If we destroy the few things that truly define our ancentry then in time we will not know who we are...

In Sweden they used to knock down all the old buildings in their towns and cities, and now I know why when I visit there that I have felt their cities and towns to be somewhat impersonal. They have no heritage... they are just places where you live now. That is sad.

As noted we do not live off bread alone.

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I'm all for keeping history alive and remembering who we are and staying in touch with our heritage, however, it can't always be the most important consideration when making a decision. If this happens it will be a sad thing, but they obviously deem it necessary. Unlike, say, the Taliban blwoing up those Buddha statues, this isn't destruction out of hate, the Iranians tend to be very proud of their long and colourful history (do a search on 'Arabian Golf') and I don't believe they would make such a decision lightly.

Cyrus the Great was the founder of the Iranian nation. Surely they cannot simply relegate his humble tomb to a watery grave.

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All those worthless populist arguments... No, I shall not debate.
:thinking2:
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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Cyrus the Great was the founder of the Iranian nation. Surely they cannot simply relegate his humble tomb to a watery grave.

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Oh but they can. The Mullahs hate the ancient infidel kings to an extreme degree.

So, are there at least any plans to capture it all on video/photo before it's too late? There's good technology for capturing any area with only a few photos and make a virtual reality world of it. Not that it's as good as the real thing, but if they're going to destroy the real thing that's at least better than nothing.

Those bastards. Their destroying Persepolis? Why? ~:mecry:

This is just as bad as when the Taliban destroyed those Buddhas. Worse, because I like the Persians a lot.

And there is no excuse. There is never a good excuse for defilling historic sites. And they are only doing it because, as D&#226;ri&#251;sh said, the Achaemids were not Muslim.

edit: And at least Alexander did not destroy Persepolis, just looted it. This is far worse.

Now that's a good reason for the US to invade Iran. :hide:

Maybe they are doing it on purpose?

Like Dâriûsh said, the religious guys don't like the Persians very much.

Is there any other place the dam could be built?

It is not as bad as it seems. Pasargadae and Persepolis will not be flooded. Sad enough Humidity from the new lake can evemtually damage Pasargadae and several minor sites will be flooded.

From http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?id=5615&section=2

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Tehran, 12 September 2005 (CHN) – These days a widespread rumor is heard among Iranians and culture lovers around the world that the historical sites of Pasargadae and Persepolis will be drowned after Sivand dam is put into service. But considering the distance of the dam and its reservoir perimeters all the rumors are totally dismissed, and the safety of the world heritage sites guaranteed.

Sivand dam project has been one of the most sensational development projects in Iran due to cultural heritage issues. After being flooded, it will drown Bolaghi Gorge with 130 historical remains, however, the damn is not a threat to the historical sites of Pasargadae and Persepolis.

The rumor of drowning of Pasargadae and Persepolis actually started abroad Iran, by some opposition groups who want to take political advantages of the situation by exaggerating and manipulating the reality. They have claimed that by the dam being flooded, not only the historical site of Morghab plain will be drowned, but also Cyrus Tomb and Persepolis will be drowned forever. The claim has caused many serious worries around the world, initiating even a cyber petition against the flooding.

CHN has talked with some Iranian officials concerned with the situation. Mohamad Hassan Talebian, director of Parse-Pasargadae Research Center, explains, “The perimeters of the lake behind the dam at its largest reach 7 kilometers from Pasargadae site [9 kilometers from Cyrus Monument], and Persepolis which is ten times farther, is located 70 kilometers from the lake. Therefore, there are no threats to these two historical sites.”

“The humidity changes which will be caused by the flooding of the dam may be a threat to Pasargadae. But we can not yet be sure about that,” he adds.

According to Talebian, after the dam is flooded, humidity levels will be measured and then, exact remarks can be given on the humidity and its threats to the site.

Another issue that can help eliminate the worries is the existence of a big mountain between Sivand dam and Pasargadae, a mountain through which Bolaghi Gorge passes.

Masud Azarnoosh, director of Iran’s Archaeology Research Center, told CHN about the mountain. “There is a mountain in between the dam and Pasargadae which separates the Sivand dam and Pasargadae plain. Bolaghi Gorge passes through this mountain, and it is the site that will be drowned with its 130 historical remains. The geology and archaeology studies indicate that the level of the water in this part is 20 meters below the Cyrus Tomb, and that the tomb is located 9 kilometers from the dam. Considering such a distance we can say for sure that there is no threat that Pasargadae will be drowned,” Azarnoosh said.

Referring to the letters sent to the Cultural Heritage and Tourism Organization of Iran, he appreciated people’s concern about the issue, and assured them that considering the 70-kilometer distance of Persepolis from the dam lake, there are no threats to this historical site.

Regarding the threat of humidity changes for Persepolis, he explained that, since there is a big mountain between Sivand dam and Persepolis, most probably the humidity will not cause as much harm to the Persepolis, but nothing is sure yet.

After all, the bitter part is that after the dam is flooded, the Bolaghi Gorge with 130 historical remains will be drowned for sure which include parts of the ancient King’s Road as well.

During the past months eight international teams have been excavating the site to save some parts of the evidence before the flooding of the dam which according to Seyed Mohamad Beheshti, director of the Research Center of Iran’s Cultural Heritage and Tourism Organization, this is the first time that eight international groups are working together to save a historical site of Iran.

“How can a country that is right now holding an exhibition of its Achaemenid empire in the British Museum be so neglectful of an important national heritage such as Persepolis and Pasargadae and let them be drowned,” said Beheshti, expressing his surprise of some people making rumors without having proper information on the matter.

The 18-kilometer Bolaghi Gorge, located in Fars province, has been according to some experts the passage way of King’s Road, the most ancient road of Iran. Some evidence from the cave dwelling period and settlements dating to the prehistoric times to the Islamic period are found in the site as well.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Now that's a good reason for the US to invade Iran. :hide:

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In Iraq they stationd on the ruins of Babylon, and caused quite a bit of damage there.

They should just have a revolution, and start calling themselves persia again !
:duel:

Well seeing as how many Iranian speaking people called themselves "Aryan", and Iran is derived from that...

I'm a bit more relaxed now... Though I certainly don't like it, I can accept this lesser 'body-count' much easier.

Steppe you'd better not be trying to bait someone.

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Well seeing as how many Iranian speaking people called themselves "Aryan", and Iran is derived from that...

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You should hear the comments some "Iranians" make on what they call the "clergical dictatorship." ~;)

cunctator -- Ah, that rests my mind somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Steppe you'd better not be trying to bait someone.

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I'm not. I'm saying that calling themselves Persian would be illogical, since most of the people who controlled Iran called themselves Aryan (Sassanians, for example).

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I'm not. I'm saying that calling themselves Persian would be illogical, since most of the people who controlled Iran called themselves Aryan (Sassanians, for example).

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it would be cool though ~:cool:

If they can build a damn, surely to goodness, they have enough expertise to transplant the tomb?

The Bolaghi Gorge is still a massively important site that's looks likely to be lost.
That's where they found the 7000 year old Sassassinid mummy, no? And there's an Achaemenid settlement, prehistoric sites, lot's of stuff.

'Course, that just isn't sexy enough to be saved.

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7000 year old Sassassinid mummy

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There's a slight technical problem with that. ~:rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I'm not. I'm saying that calling themselves Persian would be illogical, since most of the people who controlled Iran called themselves Aryan (Sassanians, for example).

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Good! But it would serve you well to make certain that that is your intention. The word Aryan has become... shall we say 'loaded' these last 60 years. Wouldn't want a case of mistaken identity.~;)

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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There's a slight technical problem with that. ~:rolleyes:
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"slight" is the understatement of the year ~D

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I'm not. I'm saying that calling themselves Persian would be illogical, since most of the people who controlled Iran called themselves Aryan (Sassanians, for example).

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I am Iranian and Persian. Farsi, the language, is Persian, and I think it would be more correct to use the word Persian when talking about Farsi-speaking Iranians in English. For instance, Kurds and Balochs are not Persian, but they are Iranians.


Pardon the off-topic.

Kurds should be called "Iranic" in the way that Azheri, Khazars and others are called "Turkic". Persia (and Persians) is the correct terminology for the particular people (the ones that are noted by dynasties as Achaemenid, Sassanid and so on) but there is a larger group of people that are "Iranic" (and that included in antiquity people as the Persians, the Medes, the Sakae, the Parthians and many others).

Good point. I was not sure how many Persians inhabit Iran opposed to just Iranian speakers...

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Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

"slight" is the understatement of the year ~D

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Whatever, half remembered scanned article for the lose?
Some kind of important burial sites are there, no?

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I didn't intend a mockery but couldn't resist it sorry. ~:) Sassanids didn't come to existence until III. C. AD
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It's quite allright.
I had to go see what could possibly be wrong with what I posted, so I went looking around. The era isn't really my thing, but it's interesting nonetheless. So thanks, I guess.. :bow:

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7,000 years (VI.M BC) would be way pre-Persian. Even before Medians I assume (didn't check with the dates).

Thanks Kenny!
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Yeah, pre Medians as well.

Pre IE, actually, if believe in the IE thing...

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Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

Kurds should be called "Iranic" in the way that Azheri, Khazars and others are called "Turkic". Persia (and Persians) is the correct terminology for the particular people (the ones that are noted by dynasties as Achaemenid, Sassanid and so on) but there is a larger group of people that are "Iranic" (and that included in antiquity people as the Persians, the Medes, the Sakae, the Parthians and many others).

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I would prefer the more widely known Indo-Iranian.

I think about 50% of the Iranian population is Persian. They look like armenians greeks italians. This in its self is proof of the IE heritage. I have seen iranians who look arabic, but the persians look "european" I was so angered by the movie about alexander made by oliver stone. None of those "persians" looked pesian. I even heard arabic when the soldiers were talking. It is a shame how uneducated people especially in the media can distored history, and more importantly distort a people.


there is a documentary being made by an armenian director who seems to have a good amount of knowledge about the Perisan world. The documentary is about the armenian war caled the Vartanantz war against the Sassanid empire in the 5th century. here is the link http://www.archfilm.net/fugitives-princes.htm

also conceptual art which will be used in the documentary
http://www.invaderdigital.com/subpages/ancient1.htm
http://www.invaderdigital.com/subpages/ancient2.htm
http://www.invaderdigital.com/subpages/ancient3.htm ( the 3rd picture down is Vartan and the armenian cataphracts)

That looks brilliant :san_shocked:

Where is that airing? I love it!

But you are right. It was the one major inaccuracy within that film -- otherwise, R. L. Fox did a pretty nice job. But, really, that was a pretty big misconception with the depiction of Medes, Persians, Ferghanans, Skythians, etc etc etc. They might be of a somewhat darker complexion than Germanics or Celts, but they certainly don't look Semitic. Sigh :san_rolleyes:

that is true wizard. Being brunett does not mean someone looks semetic. actualy if i am not mistaken arent there more brunet europeans than blond ones?


I do not know when it is airing, but they are filming the documentary in new zealan. Plus it is not only about the armenian war with the persians, it covers from the 2nd to the 6th centuries a.d the roman and persian world.