What's your opinion?:san_rolleyes:
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What's your opinion?:san_rolleyes:
High turnout (including many Sunnis) and the day was relatively peaceful - so I would say things look very good so far.
Stop whining, Dave! :san_grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
looks good so far, as was stated a good turnout and terrorists at bay by the astounding number of Irqi soldiers out (abot 95% of the force) though i have heard little of the candidates i hope they are willing to display the severed heads of terrorist on pikes around the city.
One dead close to an election place in Musul. Two mortar shots on the Green Zone in Baghdad where governmental and diplomatic offices reside.. Peaceful in general..
Good turn-out as well: I hear many Shiites even voted twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Same told about Kurds.. Turkmens say so..Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Who cares its just puppet government anyway right?
But who´s puppet ~:eek:
Since the South is fimly in the hands of two Shiite militias who convince all voters to vote Shiite of their own democratic volition and since all the people intimidated, demoted, chased, tortured and killed by the Shiite government's own militias look and sound surprisingly Sunni, my money is on Iran.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
Except for the North where the blessed Kurds 'police themselves' and have already struck oil deals with foreign companies without the knowledge of the government in Bagdad.
That might well be - but, quite frankly, I did not expect an election process that meets all democatric standards yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Yes - there will be irregularities. It will be important to see how this is dealt with. However, even more important is the fact that a group that boycotted the last vote is now participating - a prerequisite to stabilize the country.
So, so far I would prefer to see the glass as half full with regard to the elections.
Let's see how things develop. It would be foolish to expect that these elections will cause a radical improvement of the situation in Iraq - but at least they seem to be a step in the right direction, which cannot be said about all developments in Iraq.
That area is now full of puppets, "divide and control" always worked throughout the history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
"divide and control"
LEN , I think someone forgot to implement the "control" part of that .
You really think so ? ~;) I think you should re-consider. The "elders" from overseas and those already around got what they wanted and now are leaving all the mess to Turkish troops very soon, if the news turn out right.
The glass has long been broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
So, what's your alternative to these elections?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
In addition to what AdrianII might say, I'd go for calling the Superman and let him rewind the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
If we are looking for something rational, get out of there and let things settle among the natives of the country.
We have been there before, when I first posted about losing my faith in this whole Iraq thing. That was after I read the proposed new Constitution. After I gradually became convinced that the insurgency was more home-grown than foreign, and that the Shiites were indeed taking over the central government and the entire South and installing their militias as police and army units, that proto-sharia Constitution was the final straw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
I would say: split the nation in three, and split the oil dividends of the Iraqi territory in three as well, to be managed by an international authority together with the three governments. It is not going to be pretty, but it probably never was to begin with.
But isn't an election supposed to be a step in that direction?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
You wanted proof as to why the other threads i created on this subject should be reopened? Just read Left's and Adrian's posts, that's all you need and soon I'm sure they will be others chiming in on their support for failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
I mean total evacuation of the foreign soldiers there that will lessen the reaction. The inner balance will somehow be acquired -not in a peaceful way for sure but at least it will tend to decline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
I see quite a difference between considering something to be a failure and supporting failure (or "counting on the victory of terrorists").Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
I'm sure you see it as well.
DD, I suggest you cooling down because furious mood lessened your comprehension.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Besides, there is no victory of terrorists in sight. A Shiite fundamentalist victory, that is what I am talking about. It should be contained, lest we have two Irans on our hands instead of one. If it isn't too late already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
As for Dave:
1. I am not a liberal
2. I do not support total failures (like Bush and Rumsfeld)
3. Where are your own views?
4. Why would you cause your own thread to be locked?
Judging from the lack of alternative ideas for a democratic Iraq from members of this board on the left side of the political spectrum, I'd have to say that one has to wonder if they actually would prefer Saddam in power than the Iraqi people choosing their government themselves. Oh well, there I go again. But please, I'll sit back and see if someone could answer these questions...
Would these elections be happening right now if the over throw of Saddam had not happened? Would the UN have found a diplomatic way to remove Saddam from power allowing the Iraqi people to decide on their own future? How much more starvation and endless amounts of cash from the Food for Oil scam would still be caused by the lack of action from the world community?
According to recent polls that would not be what the majority of Iraqi people wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
I'll tell you what -- even though I was always against the invasion, I was hoping that it would result in something acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
There might have been fair elections under U.S. and UN supervision if it hadn't been for this horrible lack of security and basic infrastructure in the country. Because of the insecurity and lack of infrastructure, the new Iraqi political system was soon organised along tribal and religious lines, backed up by brute force, at the expense of all political groupings that wanted to reach across ethnic and religious lines.
And how can you expect fair elections in a country where members of government have their own militias and torture chambers? The American Presidential envoy Zalmay Khalizad has declared only yesterday that just two raids on such secret government prisons had turned up 120 torture victims. Go figure what that means for the general atmosphere in which these elections take place. They are dominated by warlords and driven by fear, tribal bonds, hatred and greed.
My God, man -- if non-Shiite politicians in the South are afraid to talk to the foreign press for fear of being recognised, what does that tell you about these elections?
That post was for Ser on responding to a PM he had sent me. Sorry for the confussion comrade...Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Questions countered with questions :Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
If it was all about liberation, why was the main cause told to be the chemical and nuclear weapons ? Why did US have to lie about invasion. Legislation of war, misinformation of misinterpretion of information? Yes and I'm Zeus.
The temporary government was already "favored" by US. Do you think anyone whom US dislikes can come into power through elections in Iraq honestly ? Do you think it will ever be a totally independent Iraq or Amer-Iraq from now on ?
Edit : No probs, DD. I wish for a better dialogue from now on.
The Sunnis being more involved in politics is pleasing; hopefully this will lead to some kind of a representative and stable government. They might not agree on all matters, but at least they are joining the political process now. Hopefully it's not too late just yet.
They can and probably will. I seriously doubt that the Sunnis will elect many American lapdogs as their representatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
I glad its going well and hope Iraq will be able to stand on its own 2 feet
I glad its going well and hope Iraq will be able to stand on its own 2 feet
Make that its own six feet while kicking the shite out of each other along tribal/religeous lines SFTS .
It would have been 10 feet but the turkomen and christians seem to have had their legs cut off already .
Im just trying to be optomistic :san_embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I would like to be optimistic , but this election wil be followed by more wrangling and assasinations until they finally decide to throw an inconsequential position with no power but a big title to a secular leader to try and shut them up and play ball , then it goes back to making a constitution as the last final and definitive step they took that way left the main issues still undecided , so with the Shite religeous groups calling the shots that means uh oh a new Iranian sub-state .
Meanwhile with the Kurds miraculous voter registration program they are likely to add another province to their self governing body which is great , if you happen to be a Kurd living there , if you ain't then its time to move out quickly before you end up having an unfortunate accident . The self governing body will continue on its way and break away , leading to lots of wider problems .
Wow, Adrian can talk a whole heap of sense at times, very well put sir.
One of the only good things to come out of the whole Iraqi invasion, at least, has been the proven failure of the 'new norm' of military action, that being preemptive war.
Dave, the elections are a sham, not only are they far from being fair and free - of which the basis of elections are meant to stand on - but also they are for an office which has it's economic policy dictated to it by the IMF and US corporations and it's social policy dictated by it's lack of economic control. So, win, win for the US, is that why your so happy?
Pre-emptive war isn't a "failure" JAG - it's just being implemented in a less-than-satisfactory manner.
Certainly we got the "war" part down, just the follow-up is amiss.
Which shows why you don't get it... The 'after' was the war, the actual fighting was merely process which was needed to go through to get there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
Not at all, we could've rolled in and devastated the place and left again- war won. It's the nation building that's proving more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
I think mistakes were made early on, but we're taking the right steps now- this election being a case in point.