BLIAR surrenders to federal Europe

HEADLINES IN THE PAPERS

The Times :

Originally Posted by :
Blair surrenders chunk of rebate as EU wheeling and dealing ends

The Mail :

Originally Posted by :
Leaders agree deal over EU budget -
Tony Blair sacrificed an extra £2.7 billion to salvage an EU budget deal he insists is in Britain's interests

The Telegraph :

Originally Posted by :
Blair set to give up £7bn in rebate fiasco - Tony Blair was preparing his biggest climbdown over Europe last night, offering to slash Britain's EU budget rebate by £1 billion a year without winning any commitment from France on early reform of farm subsidies.

The Independent : - No story or article (still Fridays news)

The Guardian :

Originally Posted by :
Blair clinches deal with offer of big rebate cut - Tony Blair last night brokered an agreement on the EU budget which will see Britain give up £7bn of the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher more than 20 years ago as part of a broad deal to pay the bill for Europe's enlargement to the east

ARTICLE FROM THE BBC WEBSITE

Originally Posted by :
European leaders have agreed the next seven-year EU budget after two days of what UK PM Tony Blair described as "extraordinarily complicated" talks.
The UK gives up 10.5bn euros (£7bn) of its budget rebate, after initially offering 8bn, while the overall budget grows to 862.4bn over seven years.

In return, the EU will review all its spending in 2008-2009, including the expensive Common Agricultural Policy.

Mr Blair said it was "an agreement that allows Europe to move forward".

Referring to budget commitments to new, mainly east European member states, he told reporters: "If we believe in enlargement, we had to do this deal now."

The EU leaders also agreed to grant formal candidate status to Macedonia.

The decision had been delayed by the budget impasse, with France especially sceptical about the wisdom of expansion plans for the bloc while finances remained undecided.

'Solidarity budget'

The 2007-13 budget figure agreed represents 1.045% percent of EU output, up from 1.03% in an earlier proposal but still well below the 1.24% sought by the European Commission.


Commission head Jose Manuel Barroso nonetheless hailed the extra money, saying: "Without solidarity there is no union."

The rebate money will be used exclusively to fund the development of the EU's 10 new members, mainly from eastern and central Europe.

Polish Prime Minister Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz, whose country will get 4bn euros in regional aid, said it was a "budget of solidarity... good for the sake of Poland and for the sake of the development of Europe".

French President Jacques Chirac, long at odds with the British leader on budget issues, praised Mr Blair's movement on the UK budget rebate.

By accepting the need to "deeply transform" the rebate, he said, Tony Blair had made a "legitimate but politically difficult" gesture.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, said to have played an important part in securing the final compromise, greeted the deal as "a good accord for the future of Europe".

A row deferred

After a pretty awful 12 months for the EU, its leaders will be glad to end the year if not exactly on a high, then on at least a success when yet another crisis was seriously on the cards, the BBC's Mark Mardell reports from Brussels.

In practical terms, the Eastern European countries can now start planning how to spend the cash they will get.

Angela Merkel played an effective role as a peacemaker rather than just as France's staunchest ally.

Tony Blair's grand project was to give Europe a modern budget, refocusing the spending of the European Union so it can face up to the challenges of globalisation rather than subsidising farmers.

He has achieved nothing like that, our correspondent says, not even the certainty that a review will apply to this budget round.

But he has ensured that the EU will return to the subject. This is a row deferred but a row that will happen, our Europe editor adds.

Your comments please:

Sounds like the UK got screwed. Essentially, they're kicking in all that extra money for nothing more than the promise that they'll "review" their spending policies.... wow, Blair must've really played hardball to get that from them. :san_tongue:

he's done it again....it's like being 'happy slapped' by Bliar and his cronies....:san_huh:

Isn't it amazing how willing this bunch of hypocritical, disingenuous and mendacious idiots love to give MY money to the EU.

Still looking on the bright side the more the EU is exposed as the sham it is, the faster, we in the UK, will open our eyes and tell the whole 'gravy-train' lot of 'em to sod off.

Finally some sense has come to the minds of the stubborn brits. About bloody time that rebate was cut away from the wealthy britain and redirected to the 10 new poorer countries - now we only need to cut away the farm subsidises

This in no way solves the problem. The system still needs to be redesigned from the ground up, keeping the new nations and the different relations between older EU members in mind. There's a limit to how much strain ageing legislation can take, and this has been put off for too long.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
Isn't it amazing how willing this bunch of hypocritical, disingenuous and mendacious idiots love to give MY money to the EU.

Do you smell this stench, too? Yes, I think it's egocentric reactions like yours that stink so strongly.
Considering the UK's rebate should no longer exist (nor should the CAP in its current form), be happy he didn't give up all of it. If you want your damned money back (and may you choke on it), call for a referendum and leave the EU. You'll have to pay tariffs again but you'll have your money back, your "oh so precious" money back.
I gather from the overall British reactions on this forum that setting aside one's pride and one's interests for a while is akin to a deadly sin.

Originally Posted by :
Finally some sense has come to the minds of the stubborn brits. About bloody time that rebate was cut away from the wealthy britain and redirected to the 10 new poorer countries - now we only need to cut away the farm subsidises

Couldn't say it better.

the problem is, as I have stated before, that the poltical elites in the UK and even the EU, have 'steamrollered' the idea of a one European State, whereas, at least in the UK, we were told that this was a free trade zone, similar to EFTA and FTAA, not a way for the '2nd world' in Europe to suck up money from the developed north.

I have family living in southern Europe and it's clear that without funding from the north the populace would still be barefoot peasants riding around on donkeys if this wasn't the case.

I, for one, would have liked the common courtesy from our political leaders to be asked if this is what I wanted.

Originally Posted by :
Do you smell this stench, too? Yes, I think it's egocentric reactions like yours that stink so strongly.

So you think I should have no say in where and how MY taxes are spent?

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
So you think I should have no say in where and how MY taxes are spent?

Oh we certainly understood it is YOUR money, be reassured. What can I add besides that your reasoning is egoistic?
If you're so unhappy, exile then.

Originally Posted by Ldvs:
What can I add besides that your reasoning is egoistic?

So wanting to make sure that the money that you have worked hard to earn is being well spent is being egotistic? To me it just sounds sensible.

Originally Posted by Marcellus:
So wanting to make sure that the money that you have worked hard to earn is being well spent is being egotistic? To me it just sounds sensible.

I didn't say it wasn't sensible, I criticise the fact the majority of the British is clearly unwilling to give money to help finance the poorer countries.

Like France?

Originally Posted by Ldvs:
I didn't say it wasn't sensible, I criticise the fact the majority of the British is clearly unwilling to give money to help finance the poorer countries.

Like France? :san_kiss:

As I stated in the above thread, no one asked us, it just happened. It might seem ok to some of our mainland fellows to be content to be led from the top down, but it just isn't the way we (in the UK) go about doing things. We fought hard for hundreds of years to gain our poltical freedoms and yes, our 'common' law did a lot to bring that about.

We should leave the EU to drown in a morass of corrupt bureaucracy.

EDIT:damn beaten to it :)

Taxation without representation?

haha! i'm so lucky to live in the U.S.A, where crap like that never happens. Wait, it does happen. Carry on then.

I'm not in favour of the British rebate per se, but I sympathise with Tony Blair's...previous position: only discuss the rebate if the CAP is also up for discussion.
Because France has a lot of farmers, the CAP works and feels like a rebate on their net contribution. Except that this "rebate" isn't going to the French treasury, but in the pockets of French farmers- a small, yet influential group of people that starts to bitch and moan once the policial leaders talk about discontinuing their allowance.
And now Blair has yielded the rebate, for a vague promise that the budget may be reformed in 2008 or 2009. Frankly, I have no hopes the CAP will change in a meaningful manner because France (like any other EU country) can veto any budget proposition she doesn't like.

I'm normally an enthusiast for European cooperation, but it sure isn't easy to hold on to that position. In my opinion, and I guess in that of many others, the entire EU budget should go down the crapper and be redesigned from scratch, ideally so that nobody needs to get special rebates because the calculations end up unfair for them.

Originally Posted by Ldvs:
I didn't say it wasn't sensible, I criticise the fact the majority of the British is clearly unwilling to give money to help finance the poorer countries.

Why should the citizens of Britian want to give money to finance the corruption and the governments of other nations. Its one thing to help the people of other nations - but its a different story when the money is only used to futher feed corruption.

I wasn't aware that "corruption" was one of the official spending posts of the EU budget. Nor was I aware that the UK's contribution was fully directed towards it. Could you perhaps direct me to an online source?

:san_wink:

Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder:
I wasn't aware that "corruption" was one of the official spending posts of the EU budget. Nor was I aware that the UK's contribution was fully directed towards it. Could you perhaps direct me to an online source?

:san_wink:

Sure I can - all one has to do is look at the budget and certain EU projects - the Eurofighter comes to mind real quick

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ht/3027212.stm

Originally Posted by :
Bad accounting, along with bad management, nepotism and the fraud that resulted from it, brought down the entire European Union Commission, then headed by Jacques Santer, just four years ago. The new team, headed by Romano Prodi and Neil Kinnock, promised that affairs would from now on be very different.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...0/ixworld.html

And that was just the top two articles from a search using "European Union Corruption"

It seems the EU has more fraud, waste, and abuse (two of those terms mean corruption also) then even the United States Congress. Laughable isn't?

Originally Posted by :
the Eurofighter comes to mind real quick

??
The EF Typhoon is not even an EU project, and I haven't heard of any outrageous form of corruption in it either.

Originally Posted by :
It seems the EU has more fraud, waste, and abuse (two of those terms mean corruption also) then even the United States Congress. Laughable isn't?

Fraud and abuse are indeed prime examples of corruption. Waste however does not imply corruption- just because something is innefficient doesn't mean it's corrupt.

Anyway, I am aware that corruption is a big problem with the current EU, however the UK doesn't seem disadvantaged more then anyone else because of it (unfair budgetairy policies are not a form of corruption, but mismanagement). But what ticked me off about your post was this:

Originally Posted by :
but its a different story when the money is only used to futher feed corruption.

Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder:
??
The EF Typhoon is not even an EU project, and I haven't heard of any outrageous form of corruption in it either.



Fraud and abuse are indeed prime examples of corruption. Waste however does not imply corruption- just because something is innefficient doesn't mean it's corrupt.

Anyway, I am aware that corruption is a big problem with the current EU, however the UK doesn't seem disadvantaged more then anyone else because of it (unfair budgetairy policies are not a form of corruption, but mismanagement). But what ticked me off about your post was this:

Was it incorrect - or wrong. Any money given to the EU by any nation is indeed used to futher feed the corruption, in an indirect way.

Hell but since some like to make generalizations about the United States - I think its fair to make the same generalizations about other nations or groups.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
Like France? :san_kiss:

As I stated in the above thread, no one asked us, it just happened. It might seem ok to some of our mainland fellows to be content to be led from the top down, but it just isn't the way we (in the UK) go about doing things. We fought hard for hundreds of years to gain our poltical freedoms and yes, our 'common' law did a lot to bring that about.

We should leave the EU to drown in a morass of corrupt bureaucracy.

EDIT:damn beaten to it :)

Yes, like France. It´s called "British rebate" for a reason.
If you weren´t asked that´s a national problem. Your politicians signed treaties that were clearly not about a trade zone. If you weren´t informed that´s a problem between you and your national politicians. Maybe you are the one lead "from the top down"?
And if you leave the EU it is more likely that the one drowning is you.

I don't really see a problem with the deal, it not only is fair in terms of helping the new countries but it also is a stepping stone onto getting CAP sorted. This is one of the things I shall say well done Blair on.

Originally Posted by JAG:
I don't really see a problem with the deal, it not only is fair in terms of helping the new countries but it also is a stepping stone onto getting CAP sorted. This is one of the things I shall say well done Blair on.

I agree.

Shadeswolf, since you did some work on this before... Won't this new arrangement make the UK the largest net contributor to the EU?

Originally Posted by :
I didn't say it wasn't sensible, I criticise the fact the majority of the British is clearly unwilling to give money to help finance the poorer countries.

Personally, I find the whole notion of national welfare/income redistribution to be stupid and wasteful. If they really wanted to help the "poorer" countries, they should break down more trade barriers and get rid of their tax homogenization efforts. Just because many of the current EU members have bloated welfare states doesnt mean that new members should be forced to hike their taxes to make previous members competitive.

Originally Posted by A.Saturnus:
If you weren´t asked that´s a national problem. Your politicians signed treaties that were clearly not about a trade zone. If you weren´t informed that´s a problem between you and your national politicians. Maybe you are the one lead "from the top down"?
And if you leave the EU it is more likely that the one drowning is you.

It's all clear to me now, just as it was to the voters in France and the Netherlands, thankyou for pointing that out. :san_rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with bloated welfare states but with lacking infrastructure. Increasing infrastructure in states you want to trade with isn´t a form of wealth redistribution but investment. It has worked very well before.

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S:
Like France?

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
Like France? :san_kiss:

We pay our share. As Germaanse Strijder pointed it out, the subsidies only benefit a small minority, not France as a whole.
Moreover, we are net contributor, meaning we pay for those subsidies.

Originally Posted by Ldvs:
Moreover, we are net contributor, meaning we pay for those subsidies.

Although I don't support the rebate in the long term, a similar argument could be made: "We are a net contributor, meaning we pay for the rebate".

Although I agree with the deal Blair has made, it is quite disgusting for French members of the board and the French govt to a) defend the CAP and the way the budget is structured and b) have a go at the UK, just after we have given some of the rebate away and NEGOTIATED for the common good, something the French sometimes need to take a little in mind.

That really makes mine and most peoples blood boil.

Originally Posted by JAG:
Although I agree with the deal Blair has made, it is quite disgusting for French members of the board and the French govt to a) defend the CAP and the way the budget is structured and b) have a go at the UK, just after we have given some of the rebate away and NEGOTIATED for the common good, something the French sometimes need to take a little in mind.

That really makes mine and most peoples blood boil.

Nobody likes the CAP and I see few, if any, people here defend it. It is in dire need of reforming. Rather than an instrument for common policy as it was once hailed, it is the epitomy of caring for nationalistic, particularistic elements.

The rebate needs to go to too, and this a great step towards it. It was a silly practice to begin with, even though it made some sense in 1983, when the UK, having joined the EU only 10 years earlier, was still one of the poorer members yet was a net contributor.

Rather than the UK 'surrendering', the way I see it, the UK has taken over the driver seat from the traditional France-German axis. The EU is about moving forward, about international cooperation for the common good of all. It should act as a counter-balance for petty, nationalistic, protectionist policies.

All that Chirac has done in the past six months since the referendum, is giving in to the impression that the EU is only about who gets to help himself most from this huge pile of gold in Brussels. Thereby proving that those who are oppossed to the EU for this very reason were right after all.

He shouldn't have gone after Britain in may, he should've stepped down to make way for politicians who aren't 142 years old like he is and who can breath some fresh air and ideas into Europe, like Blair did.

Couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by JAG:
Although I agree with the deal Blair has made, it is quite disgusting for French members of the board and the French govt to a) defend the CAP and the way the budget is structured and b) have a go at the UK, just after we have given some of the rebate away and NEGOTIATED for the common good, something the French sometimes need to take a little in mind.

That really makes mine and most peoples blood boil.

I never thought I would see the day....:san_laugh: , but I agree with JAG on this. (Well apart from Bliar giving my hard earned money to some peasants in Europe.:san_grin: )

Perhaps this could be Bliars masterstroke, forcing the French to accept the Anglo-Saxon model for running an economy and forcing them to drop the 'dinosaur' social model.

Yes I can see it now. Privatisation. Low Taxes. Slashing benefits for the underclasses. Closing down unprofitable businesses. De-regulation. Witholding funds from nationalized industries. Laws to prohibit strikes and secondary action ..... yes I think I just fell in love with Goldstein err...sorry 'uncle' Tony, what a great man.... *tears well up*......:san_kiss:

England had a pretty sweet deal on our expense, nothing but fair they pay a bit more. We have practically been funding the entire bloody thing :san_angry:

The Dutch have my sympathy. Maybe you needed a strong leader to 'handbag' 'em to get your money back? :san_laugh:

Originally Posted by :
Yes I can see it now. Privatisation. Low Taxes. Slashing benefits for the underclasses. Closing down unprofitable businesses. De-regulation. Witholding funds from nationalized industries. Laws to prohibit strikes and secondary action ..... yes I think I just fell in love with Goldstein err...sorry 'uncle' Tony, what a great man.... *tears well up*.....

If you believe that what you describe is even the situation in the UK, you are barmy. Plus there is nothing wrong with the social model, we in fact have a lot to learn from it.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
The Dutch have my sympathy. Maybe you needed a strong leader to 'handbag' 'em to get your money back? :san_laugh:

A little bit of magic is all it takes :san_grin:

http://www.regering.nl/Images/balken...cm42-17635.jpe

Originally Posted by JAG:
If you believe that what you describe is even the situation in the UK, you are barmy. Plus there is nothing wrong with the social model, we in fact have a lot to learn from it.

I know your only a kid and so you have no experience of this but trust me JAG it would be a big mistake to return to the 70's. Thatcher did this country the biggest favour by binning that particular type of torture for the working classes.

Don't bring Thatcher into this. I remember her only too well, and the myth that she saved Britain.......please, don't make me laugh Tory-boy.


*shudder*

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
I know your only a kid and so you have no experience of this but trust me JAG it would be a big mistake to return to the 70's. Thatcher did this country the biggest favour by binning that particular type of torture for the working classes.

Thatcher did nothing for anyone but the top tier of society - which increased it's wealth, while the rest of the country saw their wealth decrease - and destroyed social mobility in this country.

No, what we need is the social model, the social model of Sweden for instance which boasts not only the best hospitals, schools, child care and equality in society but also the best social mobility.

You guys on the left are always good for a laugh and a fairy story.

I wonder where you guys get your ideas from? Someone brought up in a back to back in Manchester in the 60's and then a council estate in the 70's is bursting your petty bourgeoise ideals...Tory boy indeed.:san_laugh: :san_laugh: I havn't voted tory for 20 years. Clearly you guys are spouting the same tired and discredited socialist ideals.....you must get it out of a book rather from experience. Socialism is the enemy of the working classes. Never has the ordinary guy been more shafted than by looney policies and ideals from the left.

Originally Posted by JAG:
Although I agree with the deal Blair has made, it is quite disgusting for French members of the board and the French govt to a) defend the CAP and the way the budget is structured and b) have a go at the UK, just after we have given some of the rebate away and NEGOTIATED for the common good, something the French sometimes need to take a little in mind.

That really makes mine and most peoples blood boil.

Well, look at it from a German perspective. We pay the most and don´t even get appropriate representation in legislation.

Thatcher campaigned harder than anyone to take the UK into Europe. I still remember the silly cow with her pro-Europe t-shirt haranguing everyone to vote yes in the 70s. We shouldn't have joined in the first place, but we burned a lot of bridges and our national interests are now inextricably linked with the EU.

Blair has a lot to lose by compromising over Britain's rebate (witness the rabid attacks in the press and by people on this thread over this issue), but he has proved quite courageous in looking at the long term. It is easy just to say no and it would have given him an easy ride with the 'Sun' or 'Daily Mail' style 'No Surrender' mentality.

Bliar brave? not really....hasn't he said that he wont be standing as leader at the next election. A brave politician is, by definition, a contradiction in terms. :san_shocked:

Something had to be done, true. If the CAP and the endemic fraud in the EU had been properly addressed at this time, then I'm sure that most people would see this as an attempt at sorting the mess out. As it is, the UK feels like a 'here we go again' deja vu...more and more money squeezed out of the voters to fund the grandiose schemes dreamt up in Bruxelles.

Wasn't it a manifesto pledge by BLiar to keep the rebate?...silly me believing that that lying liar would keep his word. I read in the Times today that Brown is furious that Linton had wrested billions from the treasury without asking his permission. A debarcle comes to mind.

I wonder how many pensions were raided to fund this. How many schools and hospitals could this money have helped :san_huh:

Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder:
I'm not in favour of the British rebate per se, but I sympathise with Tony Blair's...previous position: only discuss the rebate if the CAP is also up for discussion.
Because France has a lot of farmers, the CAP works and feels like a rebate on their net contribution. Except that this "rebate" isn't going to the French treasury, but in the pockets of French farmers- a small, yet influential group of people that starts to bitch and moan once the policial leaders talk about discontinuing their allowance.
And now Blair has yielded the rebate, for a vague promise that the budget may be reformed in 2008 or 2009. Frankly, I have no hopes the CAP will change in a meaningful manner because France (like any other EU country) can veto any budget proposition she doesn't like.

I'm normally an enthusiast for European cooperation, but it sure isn't easy to hold on to that position. In my opinion, and I guess in that of many others, the entire EU budget should go down the crapper and be redesigned from scratch, ideally so that nobody needs to get special rebates because the calculations end up unfair for them.

Britain used to have farmer, but we have no CAP so they go out of business as they are uneconomical are compared to state sponcered farming

Originally Posted by JAG:
Thatcher did nothing for anyone but the top tier of society - which increased it's wealth, while the rest of the country saw their wealth decrease - and destroyed social mobility in this country.

No, what we need is the social model, the social model of Sweden for instance which boasts not only the best hospitals, schools, child care and equality in society but also the best social mobility.

Hmm, taxing everyone til they're equally poor and living off/being dependant on the government teat isn't exactly what I'd call social mobility either.

Originally Posted by Fragony:
England had a pretty sweet deal on our expense, nothing but fair they pay a bit more. We have practically been funding the entire bloody thing :san_angry:

All things considered, Holland did get a decent deal this time round.

Originally Posted by Ldvs:
I didn't say it wasn't sensible, I criticise the fact the majority of the British is clearly unwilling to give money to help finance the poorer countries.

You mean they are unwilling to help finance policies for the benefit of the whole Union including Britain itself (in particular the EU's monetary convergence, something from which Britain will benefit enormously now that other member states have succesfully pioneered it). I think patience with those funny British rebates was wearing rather thin and so were the British excuses for them. Blair's decision was the right one. :bow:

Originally Posted by JAG:
If you believe that what you describe is even the situation in the UK, you are barmy. Plus there is nothing wrong with the social model, we in fact have a lot to learn from it.

Hah yeah. Bring on the endless strikes! That'll help the economy and make everyone richer.

*Does the French-socialist striking dance*

Originally Posted by BDC:
Hah yeah. Bring on the endless strikes! That'll help the economy and make everyone richer.

*Does the French-socialist striking dance*

They are coming. The power of the unions in the UK are on the increase. We have already seen example of Strikes already. I fear we have far more to come.

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf:
They are coming. The power of the unions in the UK are on the increase. We have already seen example of Strikes already. I fear we have far more to come.

Damn right and under Labour they will continue to get more power in the inner circles of govt and in the wider society.

Originally Posted by JAG:
Damn right and under Labour they will continue to get more power in the inner circles of govt and in the wider society.

Oh dear God. I thought we'd done away with this nonsense. BTW JAG have you ever been on strike? I have.

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf:
They are coming. The power of the unions in the UK are on the increase. We have already seen example of Strikes already. I fear we have far more to come.

Yes - isn't it awful darling. I mean the economy is booming. Shareholder profits are up, directors rewards and bonuses spiral ever onward, and these rascals have the nerve to try and increase their wages! The rogues! They should be flogged! Fancy that - the people who are working to make the wealth want a share in it? It's damn communism and i won't stand for it! I suppose Hitler had the right idea - although the politically correct ninnies won't even let you say that any more... etc.

Originally Posted by JAG:
Damn right and under Labour they will continue to get more power in the inner circles of govt and in the wider society.

So you really want unelected people with only their own interests at heart in charge of everything? At least politicians have to get reelected every four years.

Originally Posted by BDC:
So you really want unelected people with only their own interests at heart in charge of everything? At least politicians have to get reelected every four years.

Yes, I damn well would and much for the reasons Idaho puts so well.

Do you really want the people who work so hard so little to be constantly screwed over?

I would happily have given up the rebate to see the end of the CAP. I despise the giving of public money to subsidise private concerns and the CAP does this on a grand scale. Sadly Blair has not achieved this, nor am I surprised what with France having such a vested interest in an unreformed CAP. If countries like France treat the EU as a gravy train how can we be surprised at the level of corruption further down the organisation?

Unions can be a powerful and useful factor in the workplace, but have no place in the political arena. They tend to lose sight of their purpose and play political games with their members as pawns and their members' jobs as the stakes.

Originally Posted by JAG:
Yes, I damn well would and much for the reasons Idaho puts so well.

Do you really want the people who work so hard so little to be constantly screwed over?

I thought you are a card carrying member of new labour? Arn't you supposed to accept democracy as the only type of government?

You sure are a funny fellow. What happened to you as a child? Did some big awful capitalist pinch your sweets?:san_laugh:

Originally Posted by Idaho:
Yes - isn't it awful darling. I mean the economy is booming. Shareholder profits are up, directors rewards and bonuses spiral ever onward, and these rascals have the nerve to try and increase their wages! The rogues! They should be flogged! Fancy that - the people who are working to make the wealth want a share in it? It's damn communism and i won't stand for it! I suppose Hitler had the right idea - although the politically correct ninnies won't even let you say that any more... etc.

Welcome back I havent seen you for a while.

Originally Posted by :
Yes - isn't it awful darling. I mean the economy is booming.

A false economy created by idiots borrowing money they dont have to buy I-pods and stuff they dont wont or really need.

Originally Posted by :
Shareholder profits are up, directors rewards and bonuses spiral ever onward

Free trade is a wonderful thing, shareholders take the risk and bosses implement policy, obviously successful policy.

Originally Posted by :
and these rascals have the nerve to try and increase their wages! The rogues! They should be flogged! Fancy that - the people who are working to make the wealth want a share in it? It's damn communism and i won't stand for it!

A quick search on the last two pages of BBC news on strikes gives me the following.

Firefighters may strike over cuts
British Gas strike threat lifted
T5 builders in walk-out over pay
GKN staff set to strike over pay
BA worker is sacked over strike
Teachers strike over pay changes
Civil servants to vote on strike
Courts staff set date for strike

Eight area concerning strikes and arouind 50% are payed by the government, what a surprise. Interesting results dont you think. Glad to see how my taxes are being spent. Have you ever seen a poor teacher or civil servant.

Originally Posted by :
although the politically correct ninnies won't even let you say that any more

Be careful mate, all your left-wing mates wont like you using 'the evil name', they might even call you a fascist.

Originally Posted by :
You sure are a funny fellow. What happened to you as a child? Did some big awful capitalist pinch your sweets

No he asked for more lentils at school :san_shocked:

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf:
No he asked for more lentils at school :san_shocked:

Well that explains it then. :san_embarassed:

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
You sure are a funny fellow. What happened to you as a child? Did some big awful capitalist pinch your sweets?:san_laugh:

I am afraid that your and ShadesWolf's opinions seem to substantiate yet again Napoleon's claim that Britain is a nation of shopkeepers. Fortunately under Blair it has risen above that suspicion.

The EU is a single market with 450 million consumers/producers who account for 40% of world trade and 50% of British overseas sales in goods and services. A large share of overseas investment in Britain is due to its access to the single European market. Four million British employees have jobs linked to this inner-European trade.
Better count your blessings.

The notion that a medium-sized economy like Britain can still set its own interest rate free from outside intervention (the main argument for not joining the eurozone) is an illusion. Sterling will be up for grabs sooner or later. Just ask Nigel Lawson -- and when you do, don't forget to mention the year '1985'. Better cut your losses.

:bow:

link?...or rhetoric?

Sad but true.

Originally Posted by :
The notion that a medium-sized economy like Britain

Last I heard we were 4th in the world, but hey, if it don't fit your agenda, lets just 'massage' the facts.

Another lie from the lying liars on the left.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
link?...or rhetoric?

Sad but true.

Once you produce one yourself you'd have some right to criticise the lack of links in others' posts; thus far, only Redleg has produced links in this particular thread.

Or do people only need to produce links if their opinions run contrary to your own? :san_undecided:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S:
Once you produce one yourself you'd have some right to criticise the lack of links in others' posts; thus far, only Redleg has produced links in this particular thread.

Or do people only need to produce links if their opinions run contrary to your own? :san_undecided:

I was questioning AII use of figures. We (UK) keep hearing of how much we get from the EU in trade and employment. I find it difficult to find any unbiased figures.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
I was questioning AII use of figures. We (UK) keep hearing of how much we get from the EU in trade and employment. I find it difficult to find any unbiased figures.

If you mean the GDP, then we are indeed fourth by these figures:

Link

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf:
A false economy created by idiots borrowing money they dont have to buy I-pods and stuff they dont wont or really need.

Free trade is a wonderful thing, shareholders take the risk and bosses implement policy.

These two statements contradict each other. You can't toast post industrial capitalism and free trade and at the same time rail against people doing tertiary jobs and buying junk.

Poor teachers and civil servants? Well no I haven't seen them barefoot in the market place rummaging around in the garbage. But I'm not sure why you would want such a thing. I have spoken to many who can't afford a house though.

What kind of salary do you think is suitable for a newly qualified teacher? What salary for one with 15 years experience and extra responsibilities?

The problem is SW is that you just come out with this crap but don't really have much to back it up or any useful suggestions about change.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
Last I heard we were 4th in the world, but hey, if it don't fit your agenda, lets just 'massage' the facts.

Another lie from the lying liars on the left.

Swallow your bile. You're fifth from now on: http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/13/news...a.census.reut/

Originally Posted by Ldvs:
Swallow your bile. You're fifth from now on: http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/13/news...a.census.reut/

Making France sixth :san_wink:

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
Last I heard we were 4th in the world, but hey, if it don't fit your agenda, lets just 'massage' the facts.

Rank does not speak to volume. United States GDP is $US 11.000 billion, Japan's is $US 5000 billion. China will soon overtake Japan. That is the top bracket.

Germany/Britain/France/Italy and some others are all in the $US 1000-2000 billion bracket. That is the medium bracket

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
I was questioning AII use of figures.

No, you were calling me a liar.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
Another lie from the lying liars on the left.

See?

Keep this up and you will never convince anyone.

This white flag stinks... Without any move from france on subsidies what possible thing do we gain by this?

Originally Posted by Marcellus:
Making France sixth :san_wink:

It doesn't upset me much :san_tongue:
If Russia recovers from corruption and once India will have catched up we'll be booted out of the G7 anyway, so better be psychologically prepared :san_grin:

Originally Posted by The_Emperor:
This white flag stinks... Without any move from france on subsidies what possible thing do we gain by this?

Nothing.

Originally Posted by The_Emperor:
This white flag stinks... Without any move from france on subsidies what possible thing do we gain by this?

Simple, by paying your dues you gain political credit and you make the single market stronger, which is a long-term gain.

It does potentially give Britain a moral highground in future debates on the subject, as long as they still dispute the CAP; at least they can now say they did what was best for Europe in the longterm but not necessarily for Britain in the shortterm.

Originally Posted by Idaho:
These two statements contradict each other. You can't toast post industrial capitalism and free trade and at the same time rail against people doing tertiary jobs and buying junk.

Yes yes whatever.
I agree with everything you and that state tell me.

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf:
Yes yes whatever.
I agree with everything you and that state tell me.

Which state? That state? That one over there? Lithuania? Are you sure? :san_laugh:

Yes Yes Im sure
The southern state of Idaho land, where everything is rosy and we all live happily ever after. Everybody loves everybody else and we are all equal. :san_tongue:

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf:
Yes Yes Im sure
The southern state of Idaho land, where everything is rosy and we all live happily ever after. Everybody loves everybody else and we are all equal. :san_tongue:

Okay, who waterboarded ShadesWolf? :stare:

EDIT by Ser Clegane to remove bad language

Well he's probabaly going to be lynched, and a sane (or at least seemingly) govt could save Blighty.
Oh wait, this is Britain, must hold the reserve what!