The European Union

I know there's been a lot of threads about the EU already, but I was just wondering about what my fellow Organs think about the EU as a whole - is the current system working?

Personally, I am for a political union in Europe. I am unsure about the extent of powers this union should have. I think there are problems with the current set up, and I am once again unsure as to whether these can be resolved within the current framework or whether the whole thing needs to be remade. It would probably be simpler if the whole thing was started again.

What do you think?

I also support a political union. I'm wondering how come you haven't got lynched yet in your country for such blasphemous thoughts Marcellus :san_grin:
Unfortunately the current set of institutions does not allow a proper orientation. See how long they fight for small compromises... the unanimity system causes the EU to advance at a crawl.

The EU needs a restart. There's a ton of useless bureaucrats sucking up money while politicians work on re-election instead of the Union. Hey, sounds a lot like democracy in action! :san_angry:

the current eu economy is stronger than the american dollar. that's a good measure of global success even if domestically it may have efficiency problems.

I support the EU. I think so far, as Solypsist pointed out the Euro is worth more than the US Dollar, so they're doing something right. A few minor organizational changes should be noted, but on the beaurocratic level its nowhere near the corruption in say, The Russian Federation.

I support the EU, it makes sense and is a great thing for every European.

There are some changes which need to be done of course, especially makign the people the EU is meant to represent feel more connected with the whole procedure somehow.

Free trade is good- but I take the "economic" option to mean more than just free trade. So, I vote 'no thank you'. But I don't really have a big interest in what they do to themselves. :san_wink:

I only have 1 gripe with the EU..

one unified language please, so when i'm rampaging across the european country admiring the sites, i also get to chat with the local populace!

During my time travelling from munich to venice and back... it was hell. I can see it in peoples eyes, they hate people who talk english ~;p

they have one: it's called English. whether they hate it is irrelevant, they all know it and their economic infrastructure depends on how much of it they know.
i would prefer to chat up the younf italian ladies in their own tongue myself, but whatever works...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by faisal

I only have 1 gripe with the EU..

one unified language please, so when i'm rampaging across the european country admiring the sites, i also get to chat with the local populace!

During my time travelling from munich to venice and back... it was hell. I can see it in peoples eyes, they hate people who talk english ~;p

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by faisal

I only have 1 gripe with the EU..

one unified language please, so when i'm rampaging across the european country admiring the sites, i also get to chat with the local populace!

---

I couldn't agree more and we're working hard on it!

When oh when will those stubborn Germans and English finally give up their petty nationalistic claims and accept French as the natural common tongue of Europe? :san_cry:

We've already got air traffic control sewn up, it's only a matter of time before the rest of you fall into place and start speaking our fair English tongue.

Economic is fine. Political is not, due to some very distinct differences that can tear it apart (French arrogance, mainly. Yes, I know, but that's the main problem I see with it. And I mean arrogance in the foreign relations theater, not in general. The French Foreign Policy seems to be "You cannot intervene in other nations militarily because you are not French, but we, France, can and will!" How Chirac keeps getting re-elected I do not know.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

How Chirac keeps getting re-elected I do not know.)

---

It's because the way the French system works means that they end up with a choice between Chirac and the far right Jean-Marie Le Pen. When given a choice, they 'vote for the crook, not the fascist'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

(French arrogance, mainly. Yes, I know, but that's the main problem I see with it. And I mean arrogance in the foreign relations theater, not in general. The French Foreign Policy seems to be "You cannot intervene in other nations militarily because you are not French, but we, France, can and will!")

---

Very funny coming from someone who lives in the USA, isn't it? We could replace France by USA in each of these sentences.

Quote:

---

How Chirac keeps getting re-elected I do not know.

---

As Marcellus explained it, it's mainly because of a poor pool of candidates, who lacks any form of competence but not lust for power and money.
Incidentally, it also comes from French people being stupid and short-sighted.

"I believe that there are some minor problems in the EU, but no major changes are needed."

Though it's a little stronger than that. I believe that although the EU is functioning well enough right now, quite a bit needs to be changed and improved to ensure future efficiency and to reflect the expanded nature of the EU compared to when the current various rules were put in place; if not, the EU expansion and outdated guidelines will cause too many conflicts between member nations in the future and may cripple the EU as a political and/or economical power. I disagree with the statement that the EU should start afresh, but the current guidelines do need to be reviewed, altered to fit the current situation, and enforced in a stronger fashion than at present. There needs to be more political ambition within the EU, and more willingness to see beyond national gains; only then can the EU become what its founders envisioned.

If you guys form one political entity you might actually rival us (probably in baking but Im leaving the options open) besides you guys together would just make it so harder for the USA to move you like pawns to further our intrests. Oh well we still have the balkans:san_rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marcellus

It's because the way the French system works means that they end up with a choice between Chirac and the far right Jean-Marie Le Pen. When given a choice, they 'vote for the crook, not the fascist'.

---

That sound exactly like how Paul Martin keeps getting elected as our PM (he's the crook). :san_laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marcellus

It's because the way the French system works means that they end up with a choice between Chirac and the far right Jean-Marie Le Pen. When given a choice, they 'vote for the crook, not the fascist'.

---

That's not a problem of the system, but a problem of apathy among the leftist minded people of France. If they had voted in a significant amount in the first round it would have been easily enough to push Jospin into the second round, making it a choice between Chirac and Jospin. Their system isn't flawed, what's flawed is the political culture and voter apathy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder

That's not a problem of the system, but a problem of apathy among the leftist minded people of France. If they had voted in a significant amount in the first round it would have been easily enough to push Jospin into the second round, making it a choice between Chirac and Jospin. Their system isn't flawed, what's flawed is the political culture and voter apathy.

---

I thought that one of the problems was that so many left wing candidates stood that the left-wing vote was split, meaning that only the right wing candidates, with a more concentrated voter base, got through to the final round.

Quote:

---

I only support an economic union in Europe

---

You took the words right out of my mouth :)

Gah!

I voted 'I only support an economic union in Europe '

I dont believe that a full union can ever work. Economically it makes sence, but only on flat playing field where all is equal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadesWolf

I dont believe that a full union can ever work. Economically it makes sence, but only on flat playing field where all is equal.

---

But to keep the playing field equal, isn't a political union necessary? Such equality would have to be artificial. Or do you mean on the basis that everyone does what they can within their means, no advantages such as subsidies or rebates?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viking

Gah!

---

The EU should stop this bickering and unite against a common foe. I say we go after Norways oilfields. :san_wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ldvs

Very funny coming from someone who lives in the USA, isn't it? We could replace France by USA in each of these sentences.

---

Touche. However, what I can say is, we didn't lose to the Ivory Coast.

I am a strong supporter of EU. In the poll I have to go for the 3rd alternative though, since I would like to start from scratch and set up a strong federation instead of todays rather loose compromise..... ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Or do you mean on the basis that everyone does what they can within their means, no advantages such as subsidies or rebates?

---

Correct.

I simply dont believe that a political union can work. Every country would need such a massive overall, that the cost would be unacceptable

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

Touche. However, what I can say is, we didn't lose to the Ivory Coast.

---

No but you lost Vietnam :san_lipsrsealed: wooo *bitchslap*

Ok, lets get back to topic.

I wish the EU rolls over and dies painfully, then we can do it all over again and not screw things up this time. Fat chance of that ever happening.

I think the economical Union is good for the EU nations but,that is as far i would like the European Integration to go. In the area size of the Europe we just dont have the same intrests in all politics. If we need to have federal unions those should be covering smaller areas like here in North we could have a Scandinavian Union,which would be part of the European economical union.

I support a political left wing Union of Europe, nothing else. And yes, it must be rebuilt from scratch.

Europe is great. Of course it has some problems. Just imagine the US would have to integrate Canada, Mexico and Cuba. Then you see how good the EU is working actually :san_kiss:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lazul

No but you lost Vietnam :san_lipsrsealed: wooo *bitchslap*

---

Not that I wish to side with the American, but France actually lost Vietnam first. (I don't really wish to side with France either)

Anyway, the European Union (and it's former incarnations) has kept Western Europe quite 'safe and peaceful' for about 50 years now. I don't believe the continent has remained for so long without war since the arrival of man. Also, the economy is far stronger than without the Union, I believe. There's no real alternative at the moment anyway (you'll have to give up one day, you Norwegians, Swiss and Icelandians!) But some major 'interior redecorating' is absolutely needed.

I would say that the structure of the EU as it is now will come under increasing
strain as the boundaries of the union are increased. It seems unlikely to me that
a closer form of integration will be implemented any time soon, but by the same
token I think that the economic union that's been established will not be
reversed or dissolved.

While it could be said that we would benefit from a new structure, how could
any of our governments realistically create one? To reverse everything that's
been worked for up to now just doesn't seem possible. Having said that, I think
for any restructuring or fundamental change of any kind to take place now we'd
need to see radical political changes of direction in France, Germany, or the UK.

I support a European free trade zone, but I am opposed to anything above that. The idead of being subject to a foreign power (which is what federalism means) is abhorrent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brutus

(you'll have to give up one day, you Norwegians, Swiss and Icelandians!)

---

:gah:

Screw the EU, just another setup to give more politicians a job. Disband it, now. It only costs money and it puts it's nose where it doesn't belong, just because it exists. We don't need it.

EU all the way :helloo: :cheerleader: :elephant: :hippie:

A political European union will just not work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Screw the EU, just another setup to give more politicians a job. Disband it, now. It only costs money and it puts it's nose where it doesn't belong, just because it exists. We don't need it.

---

Presumably you either don't work, or work in a job that doesn't involve any sort of commerce?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis IV the Fat

The EU should stop this bickering and unite against a common foe. I say we go after Norways oilfields. :san_wink:

---

:san_shocked:

Seriously though, IMO we should join the union as soon as possible. Having been independent for only a hundred years, many people suffer from a nationalistic pettiness over "losing" that independence to Brussels. This, of course, is small-minded foolishness. It's not as if the EU will override all autonomy of the nations it includes, except for some general guidelines that all members in theory must follow and that are IMO in the best interests of all. We, Norwegians that is, must be able to look past our narrowminded xenophobia and national romanticism and instead embrace the idea, and as of yet; dream, of a unified Europe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spartakus

:san_shocked:

Seriously though, IMO we should join the union as soon as possible. Having been independent for only a hundred years, many people suffer from a nationalistic pettiness over "losing" that independence to Brussels. This, of course, is small-minded foolishness. It's not as if the EU will override all autonomy of the nations it includes, except for some general guidelines that all members in theory must follow and that are IMO in the best interests of all. We, Norwegians that is, must be able to look past our narrowminded xenophobia and national romanticism and instead embrace the idea, and as of yet; dream, of a unified Europe.

---

Traitor! We`ll deal with you later. :san_angry:


It seems that you`ve missed what the 'no' arguments are all about. It`s mainly about our industry and farming that will not be able to keep up with the low prices on the European market(that is, the prices will be lower on the Norwegian market) if Norway becomes a part of the European free trade solutions. The recent WTO quarrelling is mainly about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viking

Traitor! We`ll deal with you later. :san_angry:


It seems that you`ve missed what the 'no' arguments are all about. It`s mainly about our industry and farming that will not be able to keep up with the low prices on the European market(that is, the prices will be lower on the Norwegian market) if Norway becomes a part of the European free trade solutions. The recent WTO quarrelling is mainly about that.

---

In my opinion, it's not your farming and industry, although they may be challenged, but rather your natural resources that I would fear for (oil and fish). Fishing is under tight control and your country seems to regulate the resource quite well without any external intervention. If there's one country in Europe I'd advise against joining the EU, it's Norway. You have all to lose and very little to gain.

Yes I agree, that way dearest Norway lies only despair and pain. We have first hand experience of this in the UK. We used to have a fishing industry before joining in with the EU fiasco, alas nearly all gone.

(and you'll get screwed by the french):san_laugh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Yes I agree, that way dearest Norway lies only despair and pain. We have first hand experience of this in the UK. We used to have a fishing industry before joining in with the EU fiasco, alas nearly all gone.

(and you'll get screwed by the french):san_laugh:

---

And you'll get the usual Bollocks from the UK.

British fishery wasn't destroyed by the EU. It was saved by the EU


Britain used to have a lot of people scraping together a pityful living out of fishery until WW2. Then after the war they got a fishing industry. It was this industrial fishing that, in the decades before the UK joined the EU, destroyed 'romantic' small scale fishery and all those coastal villages dependent on it. Leaving nothing but unemployment and impoverishment. Like everywhere else in Europe. It is at this point that the UK happily embraced surrendered to the EU.

So industrious was this industrial fishing that there wouldn't be any fish left in the seas for any fishing industry whatsoever if it wasn't for those pesky Brussels bureacrats and their silly regulations about sustainable fishing quotas.

What's left now is a short-sighted, hypocritical fishing industry in the UK that forever bitches about the EU's CFP - the Common Fisheries Policy -just not giving in to their dear wish to irreparably ravage and plunder the oceans for the benefit of a single generation.

Bah never will the white cliffs of Albion be subject to ruthless tread of the conqueror again!
We will never give up our indipendance to some overwieght gitts in Brussels.
By God!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

Presumably you either don't work, or work in a job that doesn't involve any sort of commerce?

---

Don't need europe for a free-trade pact. Let's test your economic masterplan. Let's think... how can we make europe the most important economy in the world..... Wait I know I know! Let's adopt weak countries and give them money! Brilliant!

In all businesses you need to invest first. No business ever grew by sticking to the same markets, the same customers and the same products.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

In all businesses you need to invest first. No business ever grew by sticking to the same markets, the same customers and the same products.

---

Even better! Let's adopt weak countries, and give them money so that they can compete with us! Shame these new states like china products a whole lot more then the expensive products we manufacture here in teh west, so not only is the money gone, it is gone to China. But of course, we could move our industries to the east so we can tame the red dragon, let's give them our jobs as well, not like our social security system is crumbling under massive unemployment anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ldvs

In my opinion, it's not your farming and industry, although they may be challenged, but rather your natural resources that I would fear for (oil and fish). Fishing is under tight control and your country seems to regulate the resource quite well without any external intervention. If there's one country in Europe I'd advise against joining the EU, it's Norway. You have all to lose and very little to gain.

---

I forgot about the fish... and the oil. Ouch.

I not only support a economical EU.
O support a totally unified Europe.
Think about it for a sec.
Every boundary in Europe has been drawn with blood.
After century’s of fighting we would come to a point where we can say “All these different cultures come together and build a unified state”…Well, that would be a small proof that we (Humans) can live together without the endlessly fighting.

If Europe can do this.
The sky my friends is the limit.

Not only that,
But If the Eu had a unified army it would significantly reduce the cost of the military and the possibility of us going to war on each other.

Problem is that maybe it’s all going a little bit to fast.
Some of you bit...s aren’t ready yet :san_rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Upxl

If Europe can do this.
The sky my friends is the limit.

---

We have allready achieved that, no need to sit on eachother lap. Having an ideal doesn't excuse a bureaucratic invisible monster that costs mucho cash, that also slows down the allready painfully slow decisionmaking of national countries. Weee more rules, more politicians :san_lipsrsealed:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viking

Traitor! We`ll deal with you later. :san_angry:

It seems that you`ve missed what the 'no' arguments are all about. It`s mainly about our industry and farming that will not be able to keep up with the low prices on the European market(that is, the prices will be lower on the Norwegian market) if Norway becomes a part of the European free trade solutions. The recent WTO quarrelling is mainly about that.

---

I have not missed them at all. The Norwegian food industry will in most cases offer higher quality merchandise for a higher price, and I do believe many will continue to buy these products even though there are cheaper alternatives of lower quality. Those who will start buying the cheaper goods will be people with lower incomes, they will be facing better days with the opportunity to buy merchandise on level with their financial capacity instead of spending all their money on expensive, Norwegian products.

Then again, if Norwegian industry and farming proves so unable to compete that they still can't keep up, we mustn't be so petty as to ruin the vision of a united Europe for something of such base, economic concern. Europe is more than numbers.

As for being a traitor, well, I think Norway is an excellent nation in most aspects, but I'm no patriot. These regional loyalties will not benefit the union, we need to change our perspective.

I must admit that I am a NO to EU man…

Saying this I am not blind to economic gain we have from the EU. Economic treaties with EU are a necessity today.
However a unified Europe is stormannsgalskap. It is not feasible as every nation have different security policies. To ensure that your nation have enough energy and food is more important than anything else. If one nation is buying energy from the Middle East, another from Russia and a third from Norway, the theatre is set for potential disagreements between those nations. The Iraq war is a good example of this. Some European nations worked with the US and others did not. Tip: check out their energy suppliers.
A nation within EU will always consider their own security policy before a EU security policy if they will ever get one. This goes for Norway as well. We have natural resources that we want to control. We have healthcare, environmental requirements and consumer protection that need to be controlled by us. This has to precede free trade of merchandise. A couple of Norwegian words describe what this is all about. You all might want to learn them and incorporate them.
Handlefrihet, Sjølråderett and Folkestyre.

I never said the unification of so many different nations will be painless, Sigurd Fafnesbane. God knows there was trouble when Napoleon tried to do the same. I might be suffering from megalomania ("stormannsgalskap"), but if you look at the history of our continent, nothing ever gets done without some degree of megalomania. You might say Harold Fairhair was megalomanical for wanting to unite the various chiefdoms here into the kingdom of Norway, you might say French kings like Philippe Auguste and Philippe IV were megalomanical for doing the same with France, and neither process was without its share of bloodshed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

It is not feasible as every nation have different security policies. To ensure that your nation have enough energy and food is more important than anything else. If one nation is buying energy from the Middle East, another from Russia and a third from Norway, the theatre is set for potential disagreements between those nations. The Iraq war is a good example of this. Some European nations worked with the US and others did not. Tip: check out their energy suppliers.

---

This is exactly the kind of mentality we need to change if the Union is to survive in the long run. We must construct an identity that is European, for all members of the Union, to counterbalance these regional loyalties. You speak of divisions among the members of the Union, but what the members need to understand is that their loyalty lies first and foremost with the idea of Europe. Enforcing this is of great importance to an eventual European constitution.

Vive l'Europe!!!
Advantage, you can cross a border in less time than to cross a country, you just bother about US and Japan (not anymore Germany and old hereditary enemies, the English can built houses in Bourgogne without problems, the Dutch in Ardeche, the Germans everywhere and I can work in England without too much complications. And a colleague is German. We even had (and perhaps still have) an English mayor in a small village… Due to the European law on local election, it is possible…:gring:
Now, let’s speak about the cost. Well, less than tree wars in less of a century (two world ones) between France and Germany. Even without counting the few millions of lives saved, I know that the great economists don't bother about these details, I still think we save money, Look, the future UK aircraft carriers will be build in France... We built our space rockets together, and commercial airplanes, and even the military ones... Ok, we are obliged to accept the British cars with the driving wheel on the wrong side, but we can reach agreement.:gring:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spartakus

I have not missed them at all. The Norwegian food industry will in most cases offer higher quality merchandise for a higher price, and I do believe many will continue to buy these products even though there are cheaper alternatives of lower quality. Those who will start buying the cheaper goods will be people with lower incomes, they will be facing better days with the opportunity to buy merchandise on level with their financial capacity instead of spending all their money on expensive, Norwegian products.

---

Well... it appears to be very fun to travel all the way from the capital to over the border to Sweden to buy cheaper alcohol and meat etc., even though what you actually gain is minimal thanks to petrol expenses.

Quote:

---

Then again, if Norwegian industry and farming proves so unable to compete that they still can't keep up, we mustn't be so petty as to ruin the vision of a united Europe for something of such base, economic concern. Europe is more than numbers.

---

I don`t see why we should unite Europe; it`s full of differences(cultural as well as ethnical), and why not keep them? And us not being a member would merely hav any effect as we`re one of the smallest countries in Europe.

Quote:

---

As for being a traitor, well, I think Norway is an excellent nation in most aspects, but I'm no patriot. These regional loyalties will not benefit the union, we need to change our perspective.

---

I was, of course, just kidding about you being a traitor..

I am not a patriot myself either, but I am not willing to sacrifice anything for the EU.