just excommunicated me (the British) for defending against a french invasion
I just conquered france and Aragon and "took care" of the pope
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just excommunicated me (the British) for defending against a french invasion
I just conquered france and Aragon and "took care" of the pope
I feel the same way. In my Hungarian campaign I'm fighting the HRE (who were excommunicated) when suddenly the pope died so their excommunication was voided. The next turn the new pope approaches me and scolds me for attacking a fellow Catholic.:furious3: I would dispose of him but I want to Crusade.
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Originally Posted by Cowhead418
kill him, you can still crusade afterwards.
my problem is by conquering france and aragon I put myself in a delimma
I either have tow expand South and east or just East
the only problem is the HRE and Spain is stopping me.....and I'm allied to both of them and they both have bigger armies than me.
but spain is smaller militarily so should I take spain out and then the muslim and orthodox factions on a southern slingshot or should I burrow through and concrete my dominance as a catholic faction? by slingshotting around south through orthodox and muslim factions I can get to the real treasure provinces quicker and I won't crusaded or excommed again, plus I could then use the "Surround and Suppress" technique instead of the "Devide and Drive" Technique against the other catholics
I would be getting rid of probably the strongest faction I've seen in SP (Elmoheads) and the pope would effectivley be my final target
The Pope doesn't excommunicate you for defending against an invasion. He WILL excommunicate you for relieving a garrison that's holed up in a castle that's being beseiged. If you noticed, when you let the French in, the province turned blue on the map. Everything but the castle was owned by the French that turn. The reason I bring that up is if you're playing to never be excommunicated, you must never lose the land war. Holing up in the castle isn't an option, as the pope will excommunicate you for relieving a siege. I'm not certain how he views if it if just your garrisoned troops sally.
I guess you should take the opportunity to do some cursading to weaken their armies and also to gain some land.
I'm really pissed at the pope, I was effectivley retaliating, but why didn't he excommunicate the franch? their catholic! they attacked me!
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I didn't lose the land
he still excommed me
I have decided that if I'm going to invaded any catholic faction I need to have enough forces to blitz and conquer them in 2 turns, otherwise the pope will sit on his holy rear end in rome and order everybody to attack me.
I'm sorry mister pope but you can't excommunicate me from god, only god can do that.
You're saying France invaded one of your provinces and that very turn, after you had beaten the French back, the Pope excommunicated you? I've never heard of that happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1
Oh, and btw, the Pope didn't excommunicate the French because they must be smaller than you. He only excommunicates people who pick on the underdog (invade somebody with fewer provinces then them) and he gives a warning first, saying you have 2 years to knock it off. If you had been warned within the past 10 years, and you started an offensive action against the French, then yeah, you would get excommunicated (no 2nd warning).
I don't know any better then to get excommunicated by the pope as the English at one point or another.
If you're aggressive you're bound to fight the HRE, the French, the Aragonese and the Spanish. Good chance for excommuncation I reckon.
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Originally Posted by Cowhead418
you notice that the pope always decides to die at the worst possible time eh?
Oh, he´s generally being inconvenient. It must be part of his job description. If I need him to leave this world he won´t, no matter what, he´s sadly resistant to my assasins. The only other option would be the good, old-fashioned full-out war, but that´s a risky thing, he might get away from the battlefield alive. And even if not, then I´m at war with Papacy and usually I´ve got already more wars going on than I need, want or wish for.
Popes are not that resistent to assassins: they tend to have few command stars. A five star assassin will usually do the trick. However, the ultimate delight in Pope-slaying is to use the Pope's own men against him. After all, nobody expects the... :devil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Yeah, train up a grand inquisitor to five or six stars on your own men and enemy generals and then send him after the Pope. I've succeeded in frying a Pope once, which had me giggling for about 5 minutes.
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Originally Posted by Marquis de Said
reading what you posted had me rolling for ten
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
:laugh4:
no one has even given me an idea on weather to blitz Spain and conquer the Orthodox ad the Muslims first or to Blitz HRE and establish my dominance as a catholic faction yet :(
oh well I guess I'm on my own
Now, now, don't despair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1
Here's what I would do: Capture Navarre and Aragon and garrison them with solid defensive armies. Both provinces, if attacked from the Iberian peninsula, will give you either hills or mountains to defend. Have lots of archers to counter those annoying jinettes. Let the Spanish and Almohads slug it out amongst themselves and help out the faction that's getting defeated in order to keep a constant balance of power and war in Spain.
Once you've secured your southern border, attack the Germans in Provence, Burgundy and Lorraine. That will give you a four province line of defence (along with Flanders or Friesland) against the Germans. If you hit the HRE fast enough, they might go into civil war. You might want to capture Switzerland to tech up to Swiss Halbs and Pikemen. The German front will be tricky, because it's wide open and eventually you'll have to tangle with the Pope either by fighting him or by getting ex-comumunicated. But you can actually move your entire front by a province when you attack from IDF, Toulouse and Flanders simultaneously.
Probably, but I´m crap at agent-training. For assasins you could always use the numerous diplomats, but inquisitors? I´ve tried doing some burning around, but as soon as the targets were what you could call "important" or "desirable" the blasted barbequers always fell for the lies of the barbequees-to-be and let them go, thus ever training up. Then again, maybe I was just too lazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
First, ordinary inquisitors are not good enough, you need grand inquisitors. Secondly, let the inquisitor increase the zeal of a province for a few turns before starting his trails: this way the general populace will be a lot less inclined to turn a blind eye to your target's impiety. Thirdly, remove any bishops and cardinals, they slow inquisitors down. Fourthly, though this is not exactly necessary but can be useful sometimes, have a spy reveal the target's hidden vices. With some luck, your target has... unreligious urges, which will lower his piety. Fiftly, practice your inquisitors on low-level targets, like a unit of peasants or something. They don't even need to be enemy peasants. Inquisitors need some experience before locking horns with an important target. Grand inquisitors probably require more skilled targets to get their first few stars, but the principle is the same. Lastly, you need to keep at it. Repeated inquisitions will make the target act more pious, but usually reduce his faith, leaving him open to heretic or atheist thoughts. As soon as this happens, your inquisitor will have a field day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
I'm playing a Catholic faction for the first time (the Brits, in Early, on Hard) and I'm experiencing the same kind of unfair treatment from the Pope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I was playing nice - teching up (or farming up, so to speak) to improve my finances, when those dasdardly Frenchmen attacked me... and not just in one province, but in three!! They were obviously trying to run me off the map, so I retaliated and took one of their provinces. Right after that, I get the infamous "you have two years to draw back your forces" and "ten years to make peace" blabber from the Pope almighty.
So on my next move, I moved one of my emissaries over to try and make peace with the French. The response was: If I want to propose peace, then I should "move my forces from their borders." Then they proceeded to attack me again, this time in two other provinces. Once again, I successfully fended off the attacks.
But now I'm left wondering, since I'm the one that's been warned by the Pope, if I retaliate and take another French province, will I get ex-communicated? I think I will, although it's totally unfair, since I'm not the actual aggressor. Also, when I was warned the first time, should I have moved my forces out of the French province I had just conquered? If so, sounds kinda crazy. How in the heck am I suppose to expand my borders if I can't take advantage of an overly-aggressive neighbor?!
You will get excommed if you attack the French in the next 10+ years (2 years warning +10). You can defend sucessfully all you want without problem, just don't relieve any besieged provinces where you retreated into the castle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexios
After your first warning, you should have (if possible) assaulted any French garrisons you had under siege. If sucessful, you'd have been 100% in control of that province - it wouldn't have been "French" anymore, and you wouldn't hve been subject to the Papal edict. Try never to retreat due to the Pope - just learn to work around him.
One trick to try next time: before venturing on an expansionist campaign, first attack a Catholic faction you're not really all that interested in, and draw the Papal warning. After about two years, you have ten years to attack the faction you were really after - the Pope can only keep track of one warning at a time. So as long as your first warning is in effect, you won't draw another one no matter what you do.
I just started playing the Danes
they are AWESOME
it's been 13 turns and I already own the northern 1/3rd of the map
Do you have Viking Invasion installed?
The Danes are my second favourite faction. Viking infantry and Huscarles dominate! The victory music is wicked too...
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Originally Posted by Roark
yea I have VI
with the expansion installed their Infantry corps is SICK
Hey Geezer -Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer57
So let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. Do you mean if I attack someone OTHER than the French, I won't get ex-commed? Because I really don't care about the French. I really want to fight my way through the Spaniards, so I can get to Morroco. Once in Morroco, I can start fighting my way east and expanding my empire by taking terroritories away from the Egyptians. They're Islamic, so of course, the Pope won't give a rat's rump if I'm beating up on them. My only difficulty in pursuing this strategy is figuring how to get through the Spanish without drawing fire from you-know-who.
Precisely. The pope, despite his high-and-mighty attitude, is actually either a total moron or incredibly lazy, he can track only one excommunication warning at the time. That is, if you´re warned not to attack the French all other catholic actions are free game for the next ten years. So, for the next go-round, best choose some faction that´s weak and unlikely to do much harm to you. That one you attack, wait for the papal warning and then you go after your real target. Just keep track of the years (it´s really a shame there´s no way to look up when you´ve been warned. I got excommed more than once when I resumed a saved game after some days :no: ), you don´t want to be engaged in battles or sieges when the ten year period against your decoy is up. Warnings only affect catholic nations, as far as the pope´s concerned you can make war on as many infidels (that includes the orthodox, too) as you wish, he won´t mind.
IIRC, you only get warned if you have at least twice as many provinces as the faction you invade (same for players or AI), so if you're only slightly bigger than your victim you're still safe, at least for awhile. Also, if you want to invade and you've already been warned, check your king's age and the Pope's. If either of them are close to their deathbed, it may be worth attacking anyway, and taking the temporary excommunication. As soon as either of those two die the ban will be lifted.
Also, if you follow Marquis' advice on expanding into Germany, remember that there's a river between Toulouse and Provence and be prepared to win a bridge battle.
Ajax
Okay, where do I actually find the Pope? I know he lurks somewhere in the Papal states, but how does MTW represent him? Is he represented like an emperor and positioned with his own military unit, just like any other nation's leader would be? Also, would you happen to know what the average life expectancy of the Pope is in MTW? I'm considering launching an all out offensive against one of my Catholic adversaries (the Germans and Spanish look like they're getting too big for their britches), but need some estimate as to how long it will be before the old codger croaks and I'm no longer ex-commed.
(I apologize for the stupid questions here, but this is the first time I've ever played as a Catholic faction and the first time I've ever had to deal with the Pope.)
The Pope, not surprisingly, is usually in Rome, or the Papal States. He has standard Catholic Royal Knights.
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Originally Posted by Alexios
The pope can only track one excommuncation notice at a time, so if you attack a minor faction (Aragon, for instance) until you get the excommunication warning, then you can go all out against a major faction and the pope won't bother you at all.
Yes the pope is part of a normal Catholic Royal bodyguard. He'll usually be close to Rome, and if you haven't got the latest patch he'll die right at 56 just like any other ruler. That's probably a pretty good estimate regardless, though.
Ajax
great advice on the campaign, marquis. That is very similar to what I'm doing now in my English Campaign. Only difference: after letting them fight the elmos for awhile, I knocked the Spanish out. Now I have all of the Iberian penninsula except Granada. (not taking Granada from the Elmos leaves me with only one front line on the Iberian since I own the seas). Letting the Elmos slug it out with the Spanish for so long has really weakened them, and since they are now shut out of the Iberian, they are now a fairly minor faction.
Lanemerkel, if you haven't taken Flanders yet then I would highly recommend it. Flanders is super rich. I'm getting something like 4,000 a turn from it right now. Also, as the English I bribed the Swedish rebels early on. Sweden is pretty rich and has Iron.
Good luck!
It's a little bit different for your crusade agenda though. One time I planned to crusade against the Novgorod (strong orthodox at the time) but that senile man didn't let me.Quote:
Warnings only affect catholic nations, as far as the pope´s concerned you can make war on as many infidels (that includes the orthodox, too) as you wish, he won´t mind.
I guess I can share a little tip. If you're not interested to be a 'good catholic' (fight fellow christians, etc) then you might as well lower the piety in your kingdom. Station inquisitors here and there until the inquisitions run out of control. Excommunication isn't that all scary. Sometimes religious revolts rarely happen. If you're respected enough (maintain alliances) nobody will launch crusade against you even if the Pope begs and cries to every catholic.
In addition to the other things mentioned, the Pope won't sanction any Crusades against his allies, even if they're not Catholic. That probably explains your no-Novgorod game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Weebeast
Once you get into the High era (after 1205), the best way to deal with Catholic factions is to train up a legion of Grand Inquisitors and go after the faction leader. I find the normal Inquisitors just don't have any chance of success against even an Atheist Faction leader (sitting in a 100% Zeal province). Once the faction leader dies, find any heirs and burn them as well. Eventually the faction will run out of heirs and they'll go rebel. At that point you can bribe or invade without worry.
This tactic won't work against the HRE (as they elect their leaders), or the Pope.
I was playing as the English and I had to deal with a massive Spanish faction with alot of provinces, a huge mobile spanish army, and heavy naval support. In this case, I ended up eliminating the faction and using my 350K treasury, began to purchase the loyalty of many provinces. Luckily the Byzantines (the only other powerful faction) were devastated by the Spanish, otherwise they would be a problem.
GI's are a great tool to use to take down a faction when you don't want to go to war with them, and that won't also be taken out by annoying border forts.
Very true, GI's are super effective, but I do feel that using them to wipe out an entire royal line is a bit of an exploit. I think the game should limit the number of times you can place a king or general under inquisition.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbroadbent
The pope is represented as a king or emporer and has the same lifespan I think. But if you want to attack another catholic without the pope nagging you about it you should use the thrick mentioned above:
First you attack a catholic faction, get warned by old popy and, withdraw and don't attack them for 10 years then attack the faction you want to attack and the pope won't say a thing.
Pope?? No problem!! Use Assassins!!
I have some advice for when you attack the German states, if you haven't yet or are in the midst of warring with the HRE.
Go after the Emperor early in you invasions. The HRE is prone to instability. Kill off all heirs (which I find aren't usually that many if at all) and the king, and you'll often see many of the HRE provinces go rebel. That's alot of land. Many times some of their strongest armies go grey, and can create amazing buffer states, with entire armies of strong german warriors for a bargan price if you desire. As the French, I've often for either Burgundy or Provence or both heavilly built up, then turning grey, and either presenting an impenitrable barrier or a grand speed bump to a weakened German state and/or an Italian state insistent on war with me when borders are shared.
This should give you some time to build up and concentrate on other fronts or economic growth within your empire.
Also, you may want to invest in ships and play the frog man, invading muslim provences from across the mediterainian, which will allow you to access rich lands without incuring war automatically with christian factions.
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Originally Posted by gunslinger
I have already taken Flanders (it was actually the first province I took in retaliation) after taking flanders I really sent a big hit on the french economy, I get enough dough from it to support my entire military, I'm thinking of moving south and then east in my conquest though as when I do that I can take Antioch, Edessa, Palestine, and whatever the other one is and Constantinople without getting excommed again once I take care of the spanish, once that's done I can surround and suppress the Catholics instead of dividng and driving them while facing constant crusades.
By that point I will have the richest provinces on the map except for Genoa so I'd also have the funds to take on the rest of the catholics as well as strategic positions surrounding them and I would take out the two biggest enemies I've ever faced to date right off the bat (Spain and Almohads) once that's done I'll turn my attention to the other Catholics with the Papacy, Italy, Sicily, and what's left of Byzantium (if they made it through Sicilian attacks) in Naples being my last targets, unless the Horde decides to show up before I finish off Catholica, but by that time I'll probably be mopping up the rest of my enemies so I will be free to move my armies to the eastern front.
Sounds like a good plan but things usually don't work out for me.
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Originally Posted by Yoyoma1910
I am usually not the kind of guy to use a Navy, I find they take too long to build the ships, it takes three or four of them per sea to maintain superiority, and there is almost always an obstacle in your way if your trying to ship your men to your target.
I might try and use hordes full of assassins to kill off the HRE family tree to keep them occupied with the new rebels so that I don't get stabbed in the back while I'm off to war in Africa
In my current Portuguese (Hard/Early) campaign I have taken out the Spanish within the first six turns. The very first turn I invaded Leon with all my troops and the Spanish army retreated to the Fort. Next turn they invaded with three Jinettes and some weak infantry (Damn I hate Jinettes!:furious3: There is nothing more frustrating than seeing hail after hail of javelins cut into your troops! ~:pissed: ). After wiping them out and taking Leon for good on turn three I waited two turns and then invaded Castile. The Spanish king retreated without a fight and the faction was eliminated.
I left small garrisons in Portucale and Leon and the Almohads probably would have invaded if I hadn't allied with them on turn three. After taking Castile I bribed El Cid and took Valencia. I now have a nice income and can look to my defenses, tech up and turtle for a little while. Unfortunately the Pope excommed me for taking out the Spanish and is going crazy asking for Crusades against me. My army is shaping up nicely though as I have a 3-star heir, a 4-star king, and two 5-star generals on only the 6th turn of the campaign (GA mode).
I'm wondering if there's an XL "no last stand" bug. I've seen that happen twice, when I invaded Sweden and Norway as the Danes.....whole faction gives up and is eliminated without a fight. Does anyone know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowhead418
It is certainly not limited to XL. In MedMod 2.14 (essentially M:TW 2.01 plus a few enhancements to boost the A.I.) the Aragonese would regularly retreat from Aragon while having no other province to bolt too. Talk about anti-climax.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Darkhorn
Maybe this happens because the A.I. is programmed to leave the province (as opposed to retreating to the castle) when the King is there and the odds are bad. It is a sensible rule to prevent the King from being caught in a castle, but if this command still applies if there is nowhere to retreat, we would end up with this.
yeah, i love that!! i sit there going 'raah' at the appropriate moments...Quote:
Originally Posted by Roark
Oh yeah... the Pope. Pitiful and perfidious excuse of a hillbilly vicar, damn his sanctimonious ass!:furious3: :annoyed: :whip:
Come to think of it, there would be virtually no politics in MTW (except making alliances and royal marriages) if the Papacy weren't that politically active. The constant nagging of the Pope gives just a little idea of what other factions could do if they were given similar powers.
I have used this trick myself on more than one occassion. A minor conflict with someone such as the Aragonese or Hungary can be a perfect cover for a major assault on a big player such as the French or HRE ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Geezer57
Papacy is a Catholic faction (their map colour is eggshell yellow, as opposed to the sun yellow colour of the Egyptians). The Pope is its leader and is represented by a leader army stack. His bodyguard unit is, as with any Catholic faction, a Royal Knights retinue of standard size (default 21, including His Sanctimonious Turdiness). Not surprisingly, he has all the traits: Influence, Piety, Dread, Command and Acumen, plus a V&V or two in some cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexios
(SIDENOTE:
has anyone else found it amusing that sometimes Popes are downright heretics with 0 Piety? I once saw one of these... made me laugh my throat out :laugh4: 0 Piety... some Pope we have here... :rolleyes: I am yet to succeed in burning a ruler with a GI, but I have managed to burn a Polish heir with my Aragon standard Inquisitor with 6 Valour! Fear the Spanish Inquisitors :hide: :knight: :ahh: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquis de Said
The life expectancy of the Pope is exactly the same as that of any other ruler. Before the patch - 56 years before natural death, or earlier by the sword or other mishap ~:) After the patch, somewhere around the sixties, though I saw a Pope once who was 71 years old and still alive! He had luckily passed away soon thereafter, so I guess he didn't make it until 75 years :skull: ~:)
True said, I have managed to kill the King of France in my first MTW Campaign with my 5-star assassin, sent in just for the heck of it ~:) He had a heir, so it was a futile exercise, but at least the "daggerboy", as I call them killers, got away and learned something in the process ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
I´ve just found another way of getting recommunicated without the need of someone dying (at least not someone important, doing it this way will lead to a lot of dead).
If you get excommunicated and the pope calls for a crusade you can still launch one if you had the markers built before your excommunication. Crusade against the faction the pope named and you´re back into the church. I don´t know if it works as well if you just launch a crusade without the pope calling for it, though, I haven´t tested that.
It worked like a treat, I was excommed for my war against the English (I´m playing as HRE, funny, by the way, because Frederick II got re-communicated the same way, taking the crusade), then the pope wanted the re-emerged Almohads brought to heel. I complied, to my surprise I could crusade, and when I checked the diplomatic panel, I was marked as a catholic faction again (not an excommed one). Even better, the next turn the English got excommunicated. Sometimes I love the pope :2thumbsup:
What I do to stop the pope problem:
Play As A Pagan, Orthodox or Muslim Faction! :)
Or
I am not really bothered about being excommunicated since nothing usually happens (except the rebelions - which i stop by lowering taxes to High and have a few more men in a province), if i get the message "withdraw your troups" if i finish the job fast i dont get excommunicated (you gotta love mercs). When im going for 100% i make sure i dont attack the pope, i keep em alive because they reapear like cockroaches and then when there is only us left, i kill em and "poof" 100%.:juggle2: