Traits and Ancillaries Brainstorming and Suggestions Thread

This thread is where you can suggest new traits and ancillaries for Europa Barbarorum, or changes to existing ones.

I recommend you check out the Traits and Ancillaries FAQ and the Europa Barbarorum website Traits page to get your creative juices flowing and see what we already have.

If you want to check if something is possible by delving deeper into the system, or do some coding yourself, check out the How to Mod your Traits/VnVs thread and the Events and Conditions thread.

Go ahead and let your imagination run wild, if you want. I can evaluate and see how possible they are, or if they can somehow work or fit in with the mod, later.

IMHO, the 'Bored' trait needs revision.

I mean, I can image the dumb, strong guys - the 'ME SMASH YOU GOOOOD' types - feeling bored when they have to manage a city and *gasp* read stuff; but really, really don't see how a smart, vigorous fellow could ever be bored by being the governor of a city like, say, Rome. My guess is that there would be plenty - *plently* - he could occupy himself with without become a fat lazy boozehound. If anything, intelligent and enthousiastic people would be absolutely thrilled to be able to run a city like Rome (as all sane people would), and would most likely do their best to become better at their job.

Now, if I were to appointed to some shithole in the middle of the Sahara or on the Russian planes - THEN I'd start drinking. Perhaps the 'bored' trait should thus take into account the size of the city, the facilities available (e.g. if a vigourous, intelligent governour is in a city with an academy, he'd most likely spend more time there than a dumb, lazy governour would, and thus get better skills), the distance to capital and the trade income of the town.

Just a suggestion. There's not much logic behind the entire 'bored' thing now...

To be honest, I don't worry much about the ancillaries, especially in EB where the ones that give you command stars seem to have gone. However, the salient exception is the churigeon (sp?), which is very valuable - especially in EB, where you cannot retrain your army so easily while campaigning far afield. Incidentally, could you check what other ancillaries are incompatible with the churigeon? I have a very nice general but he is not worth taking to the field, as I can't give him a churigeon. I wonder if it is because he has a physician? If so, it's a poor trade, as the physician is pretty tame compared to the churigeon.

I really like the EB traits system, although my more successful generals seem to pick up the desert fighter one in the most unlikely locations (snowy Germanic woods etc).

The desert warrior issue has been addressed and I believe will be fixed in the future builds.

I can confirm that the Physician & Chirguron are mutually exclusive. Its not bad however because while Chirguron only helps battle casualties while the physician does battle casualties and something else that helps that specific general (I think its better chance of children or something).
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Copied from EB Ancillary breakdown:

physician
Ancillary physician Image older_man_ancillary.tga ExcludedAncillaries doctor, herbalist, chirurgeon ExcludeCultures barbarian, eastern Description physician_desc
physician : Fertility 1, BattleSurgery 5


Ancillary chirurgeon Image older_man_ancillary.tga ExcludedAncillaries doctor, herbalist, physician ExcludeCultures barbarian Description chirurgeon_desc
chirurgeon : BattleSurgery 10


OK well I guess its not as good for a strict battling general because ch gives 10 battsurgery vs just 5 for the physician.

Heres a suggestion for a couple traits...

Son of the King: Being son of the king makes you quite influential among the faction +2 infuence (only available to factions that have kings hehe)

Brother Of the King: Being Brother to the king is a great honor. +1 infuence
(only available to factions that have kings)

Maby one for the faction leader when the faction increases a certain number of provinces, like "Great Leader of His people": This man has made his Kingdom/Empire/etc?? Greatly stronger and will be remembered among his people for centuries to come +4(?) infuence

there that should be good as i cant think of anymore

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Originally Posted by Jebus

IMHO, the 'Bored' trait needs revision.

[snip]

Just a suggestion. There's not much logic behind the entire 'bored' thing now...

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It will have 2 levels in the next patch, the first one just as a signal. Your suggestion about the size of city having an effect is a good one. Currently someone with the Supervisor trait doesn't get bored from sitting in a city (though he might get unhappy if it's a small city).

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Originally Posted by mediobogdum

I can confirm that the Physician & Chirguron are mutually exclusive.

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Good to see someone using the html docs! In fact, if your general has acquired the Herbalist, Chirurgeon, Doctor, or Wise Woman, he can't get one of the other ones (although you could pass them on to someone else). The Wise Woman and Herbalist have the same abilities as the doctor.

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Originally Posted by Rilder

Son of the King: Being son of the king makes you quite influential among the faction +2 infuence (only available to factions that have kings hehe)

Brother Of the King: Being Brother to the king is a great honor. +1 infuence
(only available to factions that have kings)

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Son would be possible, but I don't think Brother would. In factions with dynasties, it would further boost the son's chances of being auto-selected by the AI the heir and future king. Especially good would be a "first-born" trait.

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Originally Posted by Rilder

Maby one for the faction leader when the faction increases a certain number of provinces, like "Great Leader of His people": This man has made his Kingdom/Empire/etc?? Greatly stronger and will be remembered among his people for centuries to come +4(?) infuence

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We have something like that for the Sweboz and some things like that for the Celtic factions. I'm working on one for the Getai now. Parthia really had something like that, that I need to implement. Who else should get something like that? Yuezhi? Sauromatae?

Good suggestions! Keep 'em coming!
:2thumbsup:

From my own knowledge, I would recommend Armenia having that last type of trait. Great ancient Armenian leaders are still remembered and revered to this day.

Something along the lines of "Claims to be descended from Megas Alexandros" for Hellenic generals could be good. It could range from claiming to be a distant relative, to claiming to be Alexander reborn or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Something along the lines of "Claims to be descended from Megas Alexandros" for Hellenic generals could be good. It could range from claiming to be a distant relative, to claiming to be Alexander reborn or something similar.

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I think Teleklos even wrote the description for that one, somewhere in the Greatest Generals thread.

Could you have a trait "Feared by the <factions people (romans, greeks etc>" if he has won several herioc victories against that people, he could have a morale bonus when he fought them

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We have something like that for the Sweboz and some things like that for the Celtic factions. I'm working on one for the Getai now. Parthia really had something like that, that I need to implement. Who else should get something like that? Yuezhi? Sauromatae?

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I thought the Parthians had the Shahrdar trait, saying that they're the king? Or are you talking about something else?

Wasn't there something else, like "king of kings"? Shahan Shah or something, that could be awarded once the faction leader has a certain number of provinces under his control, or certain ones?

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Originally Posted by Spitful

Could you have a trait "Feared by the <factions people (romans, greeks etc>" if he has won several herioc victories against that people, he could have a morale bonus when he fought them

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Not possible, only + to Command. The "Hates (culture)" trait does exactly the same thing, this would just have a different name.

I have a few ideas for new traits

What about a Trait that indicates the General is afraid of the water (Or has heard stories of sea monsters, I don't know if anybody really believed those things) and changes the movement speed of the fleet he is in.

If a general stays in a high altitude town for a few years, he becomes "acclimated to the mountains" and add something to his stamina. I don't know what the altitude of the towns in EB is, but I am sure some of them would have been significantly above sea level and moving from a city a mile up to one at sea level myself, I can say there is quite a difference.

Also, is there a way to count the number of times that a general has been ambushed? If so, he could become wary of traveling and move slower because he is more cautius and get an increase in sight because he sends out a lot of scouts.

If the general has been on a boat for too long, they could get scurvy or something and lower the health and morale of themselves and their men.

Ok, just some ideas of things that seem like they might be possible and add to the game.

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Originally Posted by jebes

I have a few ideas for new traits

What about a Trait that indicates the General is afraid of the water (Or has heard stories of sea monsters, I don't know if anybody really believed those things) and changes the movement speed of the fleet he is in.

If a general stays in a high altitude town for a few years, he becomes "acclimated to the mountains" and add something to his stamina. I don't know what the altitude of the towns in EB is, but I am sure some of them would have been significantly above sea level and moving from a city a mile up to one at sea level myself, I can say there is quite a difference.

Also, is there a way to count the number of times that a general has been ambushed? If so, he could become wary of traveling and move slower because he is more cautius and get an increase in sight because he sends out a lot of scouts.

If the general has been on a boat for too long, they could get scurvy or something and lower the health and morale of themselves and their men.

Ok, just some ideas of things that seem like they might be possible and add to the game.

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All these are possible (I've been planning a seasick trait, but haven't got around to it), though I'd need someone to tell me which settlements are on the 'mile-high' list. I really like the "Wary of Ambushes" trait.

I wrote a Paranoid (or Overly Cautious or something) trait that basically did that, slowing movement but increasing sight range, for RTR 6.0. Too bad all my work was too buggy to make it into the release. ~D

Heh, I know the feeling. :sweatdrop:

How about an addition to the forced march trait. Say a general has gotten the trait, and then force marches to attack an enemy and wins, say, a clear victory or something. What if he could get a "force march victor" trait or something, that could have more positive bonuses. Any chance that would work? It could reflect soldiers' trust in and willingness to make sacrifices for a great leader.

One thing I always thought was interesting in reading about faction leaders was the relationship that many young kings had with their mother. I think it would be interesting to have a king who was a "momma's boy" and would lose influence, command, and management because he was off acting in plays or what not. This could be a temporary trait while his mother is alive and either he becomes inconsolable when his mother dies and absolutely worthless, or he could come to his senses and recover or even execute her before she dies a natural death. (I am pretty sure the last on is impossible, but hey)

Another question I have is, it was quite common in the ancient world to kill all threats to the crown, especially family members, is that possible in EB. I realize it would suck and for game play reasons, might be a bad idea, but I still think that intrigue is intriguing.

Finally, along those lines, could there be an event where a leader catches wind of an attempted coup (real or fabricated by a jealous aide) and kills a large number of his support staff. That could lead to many temporary and permanent traits that would really make your king a pain to have around.

Just skimming through the ideas and saw something about being wary of ambushes...

Would it be possible to make the wary of ambushes trait say something like "An army under the command of this man has been ambushed in the past and it has obviously affected him since he now refuses to even march through woodland" And you won't be able to march through woodland with the general... Obviously he would only get this trait if he is ambushed and loses the battle but i think it could be a good idea, if it were possible.

How about a trait where a general fights a lot of defensive battles or defensive sieges in his own lands. He could get.

"Defender of his people: This man has done much to safe-guard the lands and future of his people, they look to him in their hour of need. (+1 Command, +2 Influence."

Then you could have a more extreme one which is really hard to get. "Hope of his people" or something, with double bonuses.

Could we have the opposite of "Wary of Ambushes", "Complacent about Ambushes" or even an Arminius ancillary. Makes the character move faster but decreases site range. You coudl ahve it if the character is ambushed and wins alot.

And could you give Roman generals in Rome a hidden trait which dissapears if they spend a turn outside of the city, it would give enourmous bonuses to his troops so they will stand to the last man and never rout when defending Rome? It would be pretty realistic

About the 'Bored' trait. This trait IMO is in excessive use. A majority of royal family members and other people of importance, did not need activity in warfare and civil governing to be happy and content. They had lives, people and activities they enjoyed. There was only a minority of them, who were meatheads or ambitious and think there being underrated, who became restless and bored. I suggest that the trait be effective on only a few individuals.

Also about drinking, severe problems with drinking only develop with people who are inclined to become alcoholics. So it does not matter if they become Bored, they will have a chance to gain this vice, either if there out in the front lines or sitting on there ass. But being bored should
improve that chance, not control it. Some people will never have a severe problem with drinking.

Since some factions get their new generals through adoption, could children and siblings that don't show up on the family tree be represented by traits (or non transferable ancillaries: it always seemed strange to me that a drunken uncle could be passed on to someone else in vanilla)?
Suggestions would be things like protective older brothers giving a boost to security, lots of adult daughters giving influence through marriage, jealous brothers plotting lowering personal security, clever relatives aiding management, useless or sickly children reducing happiness because the succession isn't secure etc.
I think this sort of thing would help when imagining that the family tree only shows key characters and your generals aren't actually all infertile.

If it's possible to make two or more different kind of traits that would change from family member to another... These are mainly for Romans but could be easily modified to to another factions.

Favor by Senate and Favor by people... These traits could be only with one general (same general could have both). How you would get these would be based how much your general would do and how.

Favor by Senate - This trait could be gained by gaining heroic victories. Maybe including senate missions back, but this time instead of positions in senate or reward your generals who actually complete this missions would gain one or more traits. I think this could be really neat because this would not give too big advantage from senate and it would give certain color to the Roman campaign.

Favor by people - Your general could get it by killing enough popping rebels or doing some other actions, such as stopping sieges to your towns and such.

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Originally Posted by paullus

How about an addition to the forced march trait. Say a general has gotten the trait, and then force marches to attack an enemy and wins, say, a clear victory or something. What if he could get a "force march victor" trait or something, that could have more positive bonuses. Any chance that would work? It could reflect soldiers' trust in and willingness to make sacrifices for a great leader.

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Since the PreBattle event doesn't work, I couldn't use this trait to give any bonuses right before the battle. However, I already have it where some generals can inspire their troops and spur them on when attacking, even though they're forced marching (gives a +1 to command when attacking).

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Originally Posted by jebes

One thing I always thought was interesting in reading about faction leaders was the relationship that many young kings had with their mother. I think it would be interesting to have a king who was a "momma's boy" and would lose influence, command, and management because he was off acting in plays or what not. This could be a temporary trait while his mother is alive and either he becomes inconsolable when his mother dies and absolutely worthless, or he could come to his senses and recover or even execute her before she dies a natural death. (I am pretty sure the last on is impossible, but hey)

Another question I have is, it was quite common in the ancient world to kill all threats to the crown, especially family members, is that possible in EB. I realize it would suck and for game play reasons, might be a bad idea, but I still think that intrigue is intriguing.

Finally, along those lines, could there be an event where a leader catches wind of an attempted coup (real or fabricated by a jealous aide) and kills a large number of his support staff. That could lead to many temporary and permanent traits that would really make your king a pain to have around.

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We can't detect when a general's mother dies. :no: It would have been good, though. I can't kill off generals, the best I can do is take away hitpoints or movement and make them useless. :no: BTW, anybody notice anything happen to a general's son if the father dies in battle?

Now, your 3rd suggestion is possible. It would be a lot of triggers and somebody would need to write up some good descriptions. It would probably tie into the Paranoia trait somehow.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Just skimming through the ideas and saw something about being wary of ambushes...

Would it be possible to make the wary of ambushes trait say something like "An army under the command of this man has been ambushed in the past and it has obviously affected him since he now refuses to even march through woodland" And you won't be able to march through woodland with the general... Obviously he would only get this trait if he is ambushed and loses the battle but i think it could be a good idea, if it were possible.

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Not something I can do with traits (or scripting), you have to be able to detect the terrain, and that's not possible. I guess it could be applied when InBarbarianLands, but I'm not even sure how RTW figures something is a barbarian land.

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

How about a trait where a general fights a lot of defensive battles or defensive sieges in his own lands. He could get.

"Defender of his people: This man has done much to safe-guard the lands and future of his people, they look to him in their hour of need. (+1 Command, +2 Influence."

Then you could have a more extreme one which is really hard to get. "Hope of his people" or something, with double bonuses.

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This is possible, but we pretty much have the GoodDefender trait, that covers this.

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Originally Posted by Spitful

Could we have the opposite of "Wary of Ambushes", "Complacent about Ambushes" or even an Arminius ancillary. Makes the character move faster but decreases site range. You coudl ahve it if the character is ambushed and wins alot.

And could you give Roman generals in Rome a hidden trait which dissapears if they spend a turn outside of the city, it would give enourmous bonuses to his troops so they will stand to the last man and never rout when defending Rome? It would be pretty realistic

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The Arminius ancillary would be an interesting historical ancillary.

On the never routs thing, nobody really routs when defending a city. Once they get to the square, that's it. I don't know why it would only apply to Romans, anyway. Didn't Rome get sacked multiple times in history?

@Three63: Bored has undergone a big reworking for the patch. For the Drink trait, you have to get to level 3 before it has any negatives. That doesn't seem so severe.

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Originally Posted by Hildico

Since some factions get their new generals through adoption, could children and siblings that don't show up on the family tree be represented by traits (or non transferable ancillaries: it always seemed strange to me that a drunken uncle could be passed on to someone else in vanilla)?
Suggestions would be things like protective older brothers giving a boost to security, lots of adult daughters giving influence through marriage, jealous brothers plotting lowering personal security, clever relatives aiding management, useless or sickly children reducing happiness because the succession isn't secure etc.
I think this sort of thing would help when imagining that the family tree only shows key characters and your generals aren't actually all infertile.

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Very good suggestion! (no way we can make ancillaries non-transferable, though. :no: I wish!) We could do it through traits, though.

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Originally Posted by Ragabash

If it's possible to make two or more different kind of traits that would change from family member to another... These are mainly for Romans but could be easily modified to to another factions.

Favor by Senate and Favor by people... These traits could be only with one general (same general could have both). How you would get these would be based how much your general would do and how.

Favor by Senate - This trait could be gained by gaining heroic victories. Maybe including senate missions back, but this time instead of positions in senate or reward your generals who actually complete this missions would gain one or more traits. I think this could be really neat because this would not give too big advantage from senate and it would give certain color to the Roman campaign.

Favor by people - Your general could get it by killing enough popping rebels or doing some other actions, such as stopping sieges to your towns and such.

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We have historical triumphs, coronas, and political factions representing most of this already.


Thanks for all the suggestions, everybody! :2thumbsup: Keep 'em coming!

I had a couple of other ideas on the acquisition of wives. In the case of adoptions through marriage, is there a way to tie the quality of the wife to the qaulity of the father/patron?

And I suppose, since some factions have temples to fertility goddesses, a wife acquired in a city with those temples (dont at least some of the Greeks have Demeter? I could be wrong...) might have higher fertility.

You might could tie the acquisition of a wife to presence in a city that has, in addition to baths, things like athletic fields or theaters.

And I suppose traits like vigorous and charismatic are already tied to the quest for and quality of a wife?

And on an entirely different note(!), is there a way to sometimes give a character an ancillary that says "exiled __" where having that ancillary could give some sort of bonus toward the acquisition of a particular city, either eleutheroi or held by a faction. Maybe give troops higher morale attacking the city, or be the equivalent of one of those spy networks (which are very well done by the way), or lower the cost to bribe? I don't know if any of that is possible, but it would add a nice dimension to the game.

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Originally Posted by paullus

And I suppose, since some factions have temples to fertility goddesses, a wife acquired in a city with those temples (dont at least some of the Greeks have Demeter? I could be wrong...) might have higher fertility.

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I don't know if this would be a good idea in regards to the historical accuracy that EB is striving for. They seem to have been doing a good job in only giving the actualy effects that a temple would bring, (mostly happiness) and leaving the supernatural by the way side. I don't think that all the ancient fertility rituals did all that much to increase fertility, people just hoped it might.

You might not totally throw the idea away though. The power of suggestion and hope can do a lot - (i'm definitely not talking about miracles here, but just things like a placebo effect). We did drop away a lot of these type bonuses, but there might be a hint of this still in places where we thought some logical effect might result, even if it's subconscious. :grin:

Yeah, that's a good point, that is a bit overboard...though I have seen in the South how girls who grow up hearing about being good mommies with lots of babies end up having lots of babies, so yeah, not sure what to do with that...

On another totally different note, how about a trait for generals with wins against tremendous odds thats something like "accompanied by Herakles" and could say "troops say they see Herakles fighting alongside this general, and the rumors give his men greater confidence" with +1 morale. I know for certain that such a trait would have a good bit of historical accuracy (and may already be in the game...if so, my apologies).

Can you figure out if a faction heir is a younger brother? If so, you could do a "living in his brother's shadow." (Sort of like the way they portrayed Faramir and Boromir in LOTR)

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Originally Posted by paullus

And on an entirely different note(!), is there a way to sometimes give a character an ancillary that says "exiled __" where having that ancillary could give some sort of bonus toward the acquisition of a particular city, either eleutheroi or held by a faction. Maybe give troops higher morale attacking the city, or be the equivalent of one of those spy networks (which are very well done by the way), or lower the cost to bribe? I don't know if any of that is possible, but it would add a nice dimension to the game.

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Maybe you could have different types of effects for this sort of ancillary. You could have exiles as mentioned above giving bonuses, as well as those that kick up a fuss convincing your citizens that "something must be done " and giving public order (or trade, tax, happiness or whatever) penalties until you go and sort the problem and liberate their home city. For this to work,I guess you'd need to be able to remove the ancillary after capturing the city, or at least turn off the negative effects. Would this be possible?

Ah, being traumatized by once's parents... lots of possibilities if it can be coded, such as living in father's shadow (if he was a famous victor, perhaps), or messed up somehow by one's mother (isn't that what might have happened to Nero, among other things?) Excessively mean fathers also might do a number on their kids, I'm sure, and all kinds of other things could mess up the kids.

I have an ancillary idea:

Philopoimen of Megalopolis -- famous warrior and civic leader from the 230's to the 180's, courted by leaders of kingdoms, alliances, and powerful city-states, would probably be good for management and or unrest bonuses, plus either command or morale bonuses, and maybe even influence.

Sound good to anyone?

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Originally Posted by paullus

I had a couple of other ideas on the acquisition of wives. In the case of adoptions through marriage, is there a way to tie the quality of the wife to the qaulity of the father/patron?

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Yeah, after you accept the suitor, the FatherTrait condition will pull his father-in-law's traits. So a handsome man could have a son-in-law with the "Beautiful Wife" trait or something like that.

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Originally Posted by paullus

And I suppose, since some factions have temples to fertility goddesses, a wife acquired in a city with those temples (dont at least some of the Greeks have Demeter? I could be wrong...) might have higher fertility.

You might could tie the acquisition of a wife to presence in a city that has, in addition to baths, things like athletic fields or theaters.

And I suppose traits like vigorous and charismatic are already tied to the quest for and quality of a wife?

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All possible. I think the patch will have more tie-ins with charisma and influence.

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And on an entirely different note(!), is there a way to sometimes give a character an ancillary that says "exiled __" where having that ancillary could give some sort of bonus toward the acquisition of a particular city, either eleutheroi or held by a faction. Maybe give troops higher morale attacking the city, or be the equivalent of one of those spy networks (which are very well done by the way), or lower the cost to bribe? I don't know if any of that is possible, but it would add a nice dimension to the game.

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Glad to see the spy networks working for somebody! :bow: I was getting worried about them (they require a forum or better, so a trader/market isn't enough).

The described ancillary is similar to the turncoat, which gives a bonus when attacking a faction (couldn't give one tied to the attacked city, although I could give a bonus when defending a specific city).

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Originally Posted by jebes

Can you figure out if a faction heir is a younger brother? If so, you could do a "living in his brother's shadow." (Sort of like the way they portrayed Faramir and Boromir in LOTR)

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I don't think I can. I can tell if a brother was adopted, or a heir was disinherited, and I believe I can theoretically track whether a son is a firstborn son of the factionleader or not (hmm, the same method might work for other sons, too).

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Originally Posted by Hildico

Maybe you could have different types of effects for this sort of ancillary. You could have exiles as mentioned above giving bonuses, as well as those that kick up a fuss convincing your citizens that "something must be done " and giving public order (or trade, tax, happiness or whatever) penalties until you go and sort the problem and liberate their home city. For this to work,I guess you'd need to be able to remove the ancillary after capturing the city, or at least turn off the negative effects. Would this be possible?

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I had wanted something like this. The effects would be in the traits files, since they can be turned on and off. Ancillaries can't be controlled as well. The thing there would be someone figuring out historically relevant events like this and writing the messages for them. Some possibilities that we've discussed, but don't have, are:
1. "Rescue Archimedes" mission by conquering Syrakousai before a certain date and saving him from the Romans. ~;)
2. Jerusalem Temple event - tie this in with a unique building and the construction of another temple, sparking civil unrest.
3. Roman unrest from Optimate/Populares disputes, like with Caius Gracchus or something.

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Originally Posted by Danest

Ah, being traumatized by once's parents... lots of possibilities if it can be coded, such as living in father's shadow (if he was a famous victor, perhaps), or messed up somehow by one's mother (isn't that what might have happened to Nero, among other things?) Excessively mean fathers also might do a number on their kids, I'm sure, and all kinds of other things could mess up the kids.

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We have a little of this, but could do a lot more.

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Originally Posted by paullus

I have an ancillary idea:

Philopoimen of Megalopolis -- famous warrior and civic leader from the 230's to the 180's, courted by leaders of kingdoms, alliances, and powerful city-states, would probably be good for management and or unrest bonuses, plus either command or morale bonuses, and maybe even influence.

Sound good to anyone?

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Write me a good biography, and I'll see what I can do. ~;)

Philopoimen of Megalopolis

Born in 254, Philopoimen of Megalopolis, son of Kraugis, was educated in philosophy in his youth by leading statesmen and intellectuals in his city, but was always inclined toward the active and harsh lifestyle of the soldier and directed his education toward knowledge of tactics. He managed to evacuate the city in a surprise attack by Cleomenes of Sparta in 234, and distinguished himself at Sellasia in 232. He then served as a mercenary in Crete before returning to Megalopolis and the Achaean League. As the League's general, he defeated the Spartan army at Mantineia in 207, and killed the Spartan king Machanidas. He had the reputation for being a very active and charismatic military man, and was said by some Romans to be the last true Greek.

+1 Command, +1 Morale for troops, +1 Influence

Something like that I guess. Does that sound ok?

A lot of bonuses there, but he seems to have been exceptional! Good to have a military-type historical ancillary (getting sick of the pansy philosophers :laugh4: ).

Any ideas for which settlements he could be found in? Or what the requirements might be to get him (besides the appropriate time period)?

Well, probably Korinth would be best, Sparte might work too. The general would probably need to be charismatic, sharp, and vigorous, otherwise--judging from what we know of Philopoimen--he probably would not stick around for long.

Should probably be available only to Greek factions, and possibly to the Romans, since he did cooperate some with the Romans. And I don't know about how this would work, but he supposedly hated the athletic fields, since he found athletic training contrary to a rough military life, so maybe there's some way you could work that in (though more likely you'd just eliminate any chance of getting him at all).

If you could use more military figures, I might could find some. As a trait, how about something like "well read in his Pyrrhus," with a bonus for morale or a command bonus when commanding phalanx units or something, since Pyrrhus' tactical works were supposed to be amazing.

What about "dictator until death" for roman faction leader after marian reform, he need to have Imperator trait or higher, high inluence, high command maybe. Giving further influence, morale to troops, maybe some management, but making chance that other generals will get some bad traits.

Another thing - for Makedon. After the capture of Tylis Mak general could get something like "Avenger" trait giving him influence. Maybe also some script adding of population to Pella and Demetias to reflect return of slaves?

Couple more Greek ideas:

euergetes - given to a city governor who builds a lot of public works type things, with either a happiness/unrest sorta bonus, or management

and a type 2 ancillary: euergetes hetairos (or something like that) - a rich citizen inspired by your benefficence (I may have bombed that spelling...its been a loooong day) has taken it upon himself to assist you in your service to the community...so long as his name is included on the foundational inscriptions. A tax bonus would be really nice, but I dunno if you can do that with an ancillary. If not, then probably management and maybe influence too.

And finally, stephanos aristeion (again, pardon if spelling is off) -- a crown for virtue/bravery, which was awarded by the people to a warrior who performed bravely in battle. I'm not sure how triggers work with battle results, but if the general's unit killed a lot of guys, or the general lost a few hitpoints but made it out and killed a lot of guys while a lot of his guys died...something a long those lines.
Along with an unrest bonus and a morale bonus, something like that?

Alternatively, if you had a selfish general who won a lot of the valor traits, you might consider something along the lines of "shunned troops" with a morale hit...not sure how you'd want to work that out.

Could you give all the generals that are in settlements a huge tax increase when war is declared by another faction? This would be to simulate a war levy.

Two ideas:

-Each turn your faction is in debt, give all generals a "troops want their salary" trait. Lowers morale. When sacking (enslaving or exterminating) a city, the trait goes away.


-This requires that it is possible through scripting to kill generals. If your generals get sick, kill them.:skull: This would be more likely if they weren't allowed to rest, and less likely if they are in a city with public health buildings.

Very good suggestions, paullus and O'ETAIPOS! More military figures would be good. I'd like to do a "dictator" trait for Romans, but haven't had a chance yet.

@jebes, I don't know if that's possible. I'll have to look through the available events. I know you can tell if a faction is on a war footing. Maybe that would be good enough.

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Originally Posted by Warlord 11

Two ideas:

-Each turn your faction is in debt, give all generals a "troops want their salary" trait. Lowers morale. When sacking (enslaving or exterminating) a city, the trait goes away.

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Hmm, I've been working on a logistics system through traits. This would fit into it very nicely. :2thumbsup:

If there's no money, there probably won't be food and supplies, either! Disputes over pay led directly to Carthage's Mercenary War.

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Originally Posted by Warlord 11

-This requires that it is possible through scripting to kill generals. If your generals get sick, kill them.:skull: This would be more likely if they weren't allowed to rest, and less likely if they are in a city with public health buildings.

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Not possible to kill them, but we can make them pretty darned useless. See here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...20&postcount=9

you already ahve traits describing their itelligens/charisma/vigor.
and selfish/../..
how abotu such a trait, that determine steh furtehr growth fo a character: His temper. giving him chances to be "bad mouthed", "Tantrum tank" or "pansie" "weakling" "loser of life" or gives him somehtign positive like "asertive" giving him extra movement, or extra command when attacking?

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Originally Posted by Malrubius

Hmm, I've been working on a logistics system through traits. This would fit into it very nicely. :2thumbsup:

If there's no money, there probably won't be food and supplies, either! Disputes over pay led directly to Carthage's Mercenary War.

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Yes, but this doesn't work. The reason that you can get into debt is that you are actually paying the troops. They only way it would work realistically is once you are in debt by about 30k or something and the rich stop lending you money, or hide it from you. At that point, you should also receive extra money because you stop paying anybody and therefore don't go into debt.

I don't think it would be very fun to go into debt, Have all your troops get really mad as you sink deeper into debt, then turn on you while you owe 100,000 Mnai that you supposedly never paid them.

Hmm, well I guess that the negative Mnai could represent the back pay you owe your troops, and not money you owe the lenders and other nobility. In that case it would make sense, but I still think it wouldn't be realistic until you could script a way to cancel the debt if the unit rebels or deserts.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the debt and logistics thing. And I have an idea!

Ok, so you know how generals for many factions are given ethnicities? Well, in the case of the Successor states (I don't know about others), while a man may start his career as Perses, if he did well enough, people started to identify him as Makedon, he could even be juridically recognized as Makedon. I'm not saying you could change his proclivity for traits (but maybe that would be possible), but give him an influence bonus for being accepted as an equal.

How's about King Killer... er uh... something along those lines? If theres a way to detect when you killed a rival faction's leader in battle, the general that accomplished that could get a trait like that...

Ah, can't wait for the logistics systems. And the diplomats becoming ambassadors. Yay.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

How's about King Killer... er uh... something along those lines? If theres a way to detect when you killed a rival faction's leader in battle, the general that accomplished that could get a trait like that...

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Don't think that's possible. :no: I think you can tell when you killed a general, but not faction leader.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Ah, can't wait for the logistics systems. And the diplomats becoming ambassadors. Yay.

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Don't expect too much from the logistics--all I can do is adjust troop morale and bodyguard valour. :shame: The diplomat thing should be useful in warding off bribes, at least. ~;)

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Originally Posted by paullus

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the debt and logistics thing. And I have an idea!

Ok, so you know how generals for many factions are given ethnicities? Well, in the case of the Successor states (I don't know about others), while a man may start his career as Perses, if he did well enough, people started to identify him as Makedon, he could even be juridically recognized as Makedon. I'm not saying you could change his proclivity for traits (but maybe that would be possible), but give him an influence bonus for being accepted as an equal.

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Sounds good to me! I'll run it by the historian-types.

Well the logistics thing, like most all the other traits, is just for my own piece of mind more than anything else really. Adds to immersion. Good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Malrubius

Sounds good to me! I'll run it by the historian-types.

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I got the idea from Recherches Sur Les Armees Hellenistiques, by Marcel Launey, if that's any help.

Literacy, maybe?
Bookworm +2 Managment
Literate +1 Managment
Illiterate -1 Managment
Terriffied by Paper -2 Managment

Maybe there could be a 'bastard/illegitimate' trait that decreases influence? Or 'Rumoured Bastard' as in it isn't clear but it's still a constant issue in the general's life.. which might well be even more damaging.

I've got a couple of suggestions: but I don't know whether they are possible to script in.

1. The 'ambassador'-trait and the 'spy network'-trait are both very interesting. However I wonder: is it possible to give a similar bonus-boost for gouverners who lead their cities for a very long time? -i.e. the gouvernor would become an experienced ruler and therefor get many tax/happiness bonuses, but only in the city he gouverned? The occurany of this trait would ofcourse be heavily influenced by parameters as acumen...
2. The characters in EB are fun to seem them evolve, however I missed a little bit of 'interaction' between different members of the royal family. Is it possible to deepen out the different relations between campaign characters? It could open a wealth of possibilities, not only between general-general but also between general-diplomats... For example one ruler could be to much of a 'wish-crack' and interfere with every step a diplomat [ambassador] makes in the settlement...
   

PS/ Awesome work on EB traits. It's what I love most about EB. :2thumbsup:

@Justiciar: we have something like that, with a general's proclivity to learning or aversion to it, or even one who's self-educated (Unschooled, Practical, Scholarly, etc traits). That probably covers it.

It wouldn't be too hard to do the Bastard trait; Hiero of Syrakousai would fit the bill, I think. It could be obtained when suitors or adoption candidates are offered (men of the hour would be very prone to it, I guess). Even sons could have it, if their father has a trait like "Cuckold" (meaning the son is the wife's), or if the father has the adultery vice or something similar.

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Originally Posted by The_White_Knight

I've got a couple of suggestions: but I don't know whether they are possible to script in.

1. The 'ambassador'-trait and the 'spy network'-trait are both very interesting. However I wonder: is it possible to give a similar bonus-boost for gouverners who lead their cities for a very long time? -i.e. the gouvernor would become an experienced ruler and therefor get many tax/happiness bonuses, but only in the city he gouverned? The occurany of this trait would ofcourse be heavily influenced by parameters as acumen...
2. The characters in EB are fun to seem them evolve, however I missed a little bit of 'interaction' between different members of the royal family. Is it possible to deepen out the different relations between campaign characters? It could open a wealth of possibilities, not only between general-general but also between general-diplomats... For example one ruler could be to much of a 'wish-crack' and interfere with every step a diplomat [ambassador] makes in the settlement...
   

PS/ Awesome work on EB traits. It's what I love most about EB. :2thumbsup:

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Glad you're enjoying them! :grin:

Yeah, therother has been on me :whip: about doing what you mentioned in (1). (2) would be a bit difficult, because I can check what a father's traits are, but the father can't tell what his son's traits are, in game terms. I could do things at random, but they might seem incongruous. Same would go with relations between spies and assassins. For a little role-playing effect, it might be fun, but I wouldn't want to tie any severe penalties to it.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=125

Some good ideas. I like the language idea. Perhaps he will let you use it. Just a thought.

I think something should be done about the Gloomy trait line. If your general is has the pessimistic trait, it's pretty likely he'll end up with Melancholic. It just kills my generals influence. I haven't checked the threshold, but I think raising it a tad would be good.

How about an Architect trait that reduces building build times?

Any chance we could rename the Merc captain to xenologos (merc recruiter)?

Edit: Ah, good point Trithemius. This would only be for Greek factions, and perhaps you could use it for the Getai as well.

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Originally Posted by paullus

Any chance we could rename the Merc captain to xenologos (merc recruiter)?

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Or "Master of Auxiliaries" or something for the Romans?

I notice that the Romans have different status classes as their "ethnicities" (at least in the timeframe that my game is in), as well as picking up Optimate/Moderate/Populist traits.

I assume that, later on, Roman adoptees can start to pick up foreign ethnicities and so on - if not would this be something that could be made to happen?

Also, I am curious if the trait system could stand to have particular Families (gens) as traits as well? Or perhaps lesser traits that depend upon their social class?

could there perhaps be an iron fist trait for older generals who have spent a very long time governing a city or with huge amounts of influence (obviously they would also need to be corrupt, have a position in government, selfish, possibly the presence of one of the despotic buildings like execution squares or gladiatorial arenas). They would be able to make lots of profit off of the city and avoid the suspicious eyes of those higher up thanks to bribery, making it unlikelyto be censured. obviously their methods of tax collecting and enforcing law would include torture, imprisonment, and "vanishing" political enemies. This might bring a law bonus at first, as well as decreased population growth (representing people being arrested/executed) but soon a second trait could arrive representing how tired the people get of such tyranny. this would cause severe unrest due to unnhappiness, less order due to law, and a decrease in personal security. Maybe their bodyguards might even become less loyal because they've been ordered to do comit too many crimes. it would be easy to look the other way as their leader is hacked to pieces. If possible you could make them likely to die earlier. it would be fun to see that they died from "natural causes" later on.

another suggestion, a general might lose some command/influence if they relied too much on mercenaries and not enough on native troops. as well there could be an "enjoys foreign culture" or "foreign wife" trait which might give them less influence and less command because his people no longer trust him. at least they would be less likely to get a powerful position in government. there could be a problem with determining what the culture of the general was, but maybe faction-specific buildings might effect this. ie: a roman who spends too much time in settlements with greek buildings might get the "wants to be greek" trait. When this general entered a roman settlement with a romans only building, he would get a trait such as "seen as a traitor" this would last only until he left and went to a city with a greek building, where it would cause the trait "feels right at home"

maybe you could also do this with schools and other cultural buildings. an intelligent general with the trait "philosophically inclined" might start to feel impatient in a city without an educational building. this could lead to all kinds of bad things like "sees others as inferior". The same could be done in reverse.

oh, just one other thing could perhaps be an "idealist" who could try to take away things like gladiatorial fights or high taxes. If they did implement high taxes, they would be merciful and also work harder to benefit the people. eventually their reforms in the city could lead to population growth and incredible loyalty. they could crack down on corruption and get discounts. Also, the people would be willing to work and fight harder and/or for less pay, since this man was so kind. at the same time, their security might go down when the local aristocracy feels like they've been wronged. on the other hand the people would be so loyal that no one would be able to attack this general. Obviously they would be hard to bribe, and unlikely to be a good military leader, since their morals would contradict military action.

What about retarted trait. They have 1 hitpoint and randomly run around on the battlefield and when you put them in your cities your income becomes negative 10000 and buildings are randomly destroyed. For the picture the general should be lke cross-eyed with his toungue out or somehting.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Warlord 11

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=125

Some good ideas. I like the language idea. Perhaps he will let you use it. Just a thought.

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That mod started as a submod of the EB system, though they may be doing a complete reworking now, I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by john289

I think something should be done about the Gloomy trait line. If your general is has the pessimistic trait, it's pretty likely he'll end up with Melancholic. It just kills my generals influence. I haven't checked the threshold, but I think raising it a tad would be good.

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I may add another level that has less severe penalties and do some more happiness triggers tied to buildings. That trait does seem a bit too common, and there should be some triggers to counteract it more.

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Originally Posted by SpawnOfEbil

How about an Architect trait that reduces building build times?

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Not possible. We can reduce build costs. As for times, I found out something recently: you can drag and drop buildings in the queue to reorder them, so you can start a Type2 government building, and move roads or temples in front of it when you need one of them built fast. It will slow down your government building a few turns, but it can come in handy.

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Originally Posted by paullus

Any chance we could rename the Merc captain to xenologos (merc recruiter)?

Edit: Ah, good point Trithemius. This would only be for Greek factions, and perhaps you could use it for the Getai as well.

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Yeah, we could do that, to have faction or culture-specific ancillaries like that. With Forgus working on the portraits, we've done this with a few of them. Equilibrium has gotten changes like these implemented.

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Originally Posted by Trithemius

I notice that the Romans have different status classes as their "ethnicities" (at least in the timeframe that my game is in), as well as picking up Optimate/Moderate/Populist traits.

I assume that, later on, Roman adoptees can start to pick up foreign ethnicities and so on - if not would this be something that could be made to happen?

Also, I am curious if the trait system could stand to have particular Families (gens) as traits as well? Or perhaps lesser traits that depend upon their social class?

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For now, we don't have the ethnicities for the Romans. There has been discussion of adding some. I would guess Samnites or others might be possibilities.

We do have the Plebeian/Patrician split, as well as a later Senator/Equestrian split, and the 'political parties' you mentioned (Optimate, etc).

We had discussed using the epithet system to apply the gens, but didn't go with that system.

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Originally Posted by mattholomew

could there perhaps be an iron fist trait for older generals who have spent a very long time governing a city or with huge amounts of influence (obviously they would also need to be corrupt, have a position in government, selfish, possibly the presence of one of the despotic buildings like execution squares or gladiatorial arenas). They would be able to make lots of profit off of the city and avoid the suspicious eyes of those higher up thanks to bribery, making it unlikelyto be censured. obviously their methods of tax collecting and enforcing law would include torture, imprisonment, and "vanishing" political enemies. This might bring a law bonus at first, as well as decreased population growth (representing people being arrested/executed) but soon a second trait could arrive representing how tired the people get of such tyranny. this would cause severe unrest due to unnhappiness, less order due to law, and a decrease in personal security. Maybe their bodyguards might even become less loyal because they've been ordered to do comit too many crimes. it would be easy to look the other way as their leader is hacked to pieces. If possible you could make them likely to die earlier. it would be fun to see that they died from "natural causes" later on.

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An interesting idea. With some good descriptions for each level, it would be a nice progression. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mattholomew

another suggestion, a general might lose some command/influence if they relied too much on mercenaries and not enough on native troops. as well there could be an "enjoys foreign culture" or "foreign wife" trait which might give them less influence and less command because his people no longer trust him. at least they would be less likely to get a powerful position in government. there could be a problem with determining what the culture of the general was, but maybe faction-specific buildings might effect this. ie: a roman who spends too much time in settlements with greek buildings might get the "wants to be greek" trait. When this general entered a roman settlement with a romans only building, he would get a trait such as "seen as a traitor" this would last only until he left and went to a city with a greek building, where it would cause the trait "feels right at home"

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Tying this to buildings wouldn't work so well, because we can only detect the building level, not the faction or culture it belongs to.

I can tell when a general hires mercenaries, but not how much of a percentage they represent in his army.

The original game had a "foreign tastes" trait for romans (ForeignTasteRomanVice), but it was poorly implemented and didn't work. The CVP disabled it, but I re-enabled it for diplomats.

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Originally Posted by mattholomew

maybe you could also do this with schools and other cultural buildings. an intelligent general with the trait "philosophically inclined" might start to feel impatient in a city without an educational building. this could lead to all kinds of bad things like "sees others as inferior". The same could be done in reverse.

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This would be possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mattholomew

oh, just one other thing could perhaps be an "idealist" who could try to take away things like gladiatorial fights or high taxes. If they did implement high taxes, they would be merciful and also work harder to benefit the people. eventually their reforms in the city could lead to population growth and incredible loyalty. they could crack down on corruption and get discounts. Also, the people would be willing to work and fight harder and/or for less pay, since this man was so kind. at the same time, their security might go down when the local aristocracy feels like they've been wronged. on the other hand the people would be so loyal that no one would be able to attack this general. Obviously they would be hard to bribe, and unlikely to be a good military leader, since their morals would contradict military action.

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This would be the opposite of the iron fist trait above. These two have some similarities with the current Brutal and Lenient traits, and might represent offshoots of them.

I have a trait/ancillary suggestion- but I can't seem to open the .rar docs on the website so if I'm repeating something sorry in advance.

What I'm thinking is some sort of cultural conflict progression- traits like 'Religous Convert', 'Going Native', or 'Forgotten His Roots'. These are all probably negative traits, or maybe mixed- 'Going Native' could be minus influence but a plus on local management. Is there some way to assign traits to generals who have spent a long time away from the core homeland? That's what I'm getting at- generals and governors who are influenced by local culture, losing rep/influence back home but gaining something among the conquered locals. Shouldn't happen automatically though- think of Pausanias (old guard Mak no matter how long away) and Hephaistion (wearing Persian trousers).


Ancillaries to go along with this trait system could be 'Influential Priest' (I'm thinking Rasputin here, actually), 'Local Client'. The idea needs loads of work in the details.



A second one, independent of the above is a trait for Autobiographer/ Memoir Writer. Someone like Xenophon or Caesar should gain Influence from publishing their memoirs/analyses of recent campaigns. Again, sorry if you already have this.


Last question- is there any system in place/coming up to represent the Roman Patron/Client relationships. I dunno how that would work in game but the acquisition of clients was a major part of a Roman's auctoritas/dignitas. Pompey boasted that he had kings as clients, which he indeed did. I'm betting that you already have something on this.

I like your going native idea
maybe instead of losing influence, the general will "govern best the province" of that culture where he "goes native"
something like when a general gets a worshipper of whoever trait and it says they govern best where that god is worshipped

So I figured out how to view the traits/ancillaries spreadsheet. Very, very impressive.

I was thinking that expanding on the 'Eleusinian' trait model would be cool- there were other cults that were popular, especially later on in Rome; Isis, Osiris, Dionysus and later on Jesus. Don't know if that will offend anybody but the christians were seen by the Roman establishment as a kind of jewish cult.
The icing on this particular cake would be Divine Rights given to faction leaders. This could be a trait in two ways: if you had a particularly successful faction leader you could have him 'Worshipped as a God' with huge bonuses. And that trait could trigger a 'Cult of Augustus' (whoever) style trait in family members that come after him.
Perhaps 'Worshipped as a God' could have influence, public happiness and law bonuses but decrease loyalty in some generals (jealousy)?

I don't know if it has been ask earlier, but is it possible to split the attuned gouvenor trait into four different traits, for each type of gouvernment (for each faction) (for each Province)?
For Example Macedon:
"Attuned Govenour" for Level 1, "Satrap" for Level 2, "Garrison Commander" for Level 3, and "Advisor of a Foreign State" for Level 4

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Originally Posted by Bonny

I don't know if it has been ask earlier, but is it possible to split the attuned gouvenor trait into four different traits, for each type of gouvernment (for each faction) (for each Province)?
For Example Macedon:
"Attuned Govenour" for Level 1, "Satrap" for Level 2, "Garrison Commander" for Level 3, and "Advisor of a Foreign State" for Level 4

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As far as I kniow the attuned governor trait only applies to the settlement the governor has been attuned to. As soon as he spends a turn outside the settlement he is attuned to he must re-attune himself, or attune himself to a different settlement. This is regardless of the settlement's gov type.

Foot

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Originally Posted by jebes

Could you give all the generals that are in settlements a huge tax increase when war is declared by another faction? This would be to simulate a war levy.

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Originally Posted by Malrubius

jebes, I don't know if that's possible. I'll have to look through the available events. I know you can tell if a faction is on a war footing. Maybe that would be good enough.

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Its an interesting concept, but, aren't you generally always at war with another faction? So in effect this might be just raising the total amount of money you would make in the game. If a general moves into a city, for the next X amount of turns, maybe for a year, they recieve a large income bonus, though, theoritically you could just move them in and out as well. Did you mean only when a faction declares war for the first turn or so?

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Originally Posted by Foot

As far as I kniow the attuned governor trait only applies to the settlement the governor has been attuned to. As soon as he spends a turn outside the settlement he is attuned to he must re-attune himself, or attune himself to a different settlement. This is regardless of the settlement's gov type.

Foot

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Yes, this may be, but isn't it possible to have different kinds of this trait for each government building? (like the different relifious ones "worshipper of whatever temple is in the city")

Some ethnicities are actually better at governing different types of settlements (depending on the installed government type).

I just got a few comments. First I would like to thank Malrubius for all the hard work, he has put into the traits system, which is really making a huge positive difference when playing the game.

My first problem is that it seems, I never get the good infantry leader trait any more. That is despite the fact that as the romans, I have won several clear and heroic victories with armies overwhelmingly consisting of infantry and with the same general. Maybe the triggers need a little tweaking.

Also it seems that a lot of my generals are becoming lovers of beauty and therefore suffers a loss of command stars. Since it is very hard to achieve command stars, (which I think make for an interesting challenge) I don’t think that a trait like lover of beauty should cost my generals command abilities, since war historically was a good way to achieve priceless artwork. I think it would be better if that trait contributes to unrest because the population might, rightly so, think that the general/governor cares more about beautiful things than there wellbeing and spend the taxes accordingly.

In my opinion the age related traits for generals could need a little more elaborating. These are of course just suggestions.

Youth: +2 hitpoints, +4 movementspoints, -1 management, -1 influence. This represent the energy, recklessness and good health as a young man making his way in the world, but without the experience and fame/connections still to come.

Adult: +1 hitpoints, +4 movementspoints, -1 management. Not quite as reckless, but still with energy and good health and beginning to build a reputation.

Fully grown: +1 hitpoints, +2 movementspoints, +1 command, +1 influence, +1 management. The leader at the top of his performance with a body still in good condition, and the experience and connections to really make a difference - especially on the battlefield.

Middle aged: +1 movementspoints, +1 command, +2 influence, +1 management. Still a very capable leader also on the battlefield with at lot of experience, and a man of standing, but with a body beginning to slow down.

Getting older: -2 movementspoints, +1 command, +2 influence, +2 management. A lot of power and connections through a long time of serving, and a mind still sharp, but the body no longer able to keep op.

Senior citizen: -4 movementspoints, -1 hitpoints, +2 influence, +2 management. The ordeal of the battlefield are now becoming too hard for mind and body, but a lifetime of experience still counts in other aspects of life.

Elderly: -5 movementspoints, -2 hitpoints, -1 command, +2 influnce, +1 management. The continuing decline of body and mind, but a man that have served his nation for a lifetime still has power through connections and friends.

Decrepit: -6 movementspoints, -3 hitpoints, -1 command, +1 influnce. The grave awaits and body and mind are close to dead themselves.

This is of course a crude generalization of how people evolves, but I think it will fit in nicely with the traits and how most people use their generals and for me it gives the game a bigger element of role-playing which keep it interesting.

I guess this is all for now.

I am certainly a big fan of the aging traits, but giving them too much weight could make them overly deterministic.