Aztecs

i've seen mention of the aztecs in custom battle and mulitplayer from official looking sources, but nothing about them in regular campaign play, i find it difficult to believe that CA will make a huge map extending from the americas to europe. i find it much more likely that the aztecs will be a mini game, similar to the way that the italian peninsula was a mini game in the tutorial of RTW. the main difference being that the aztec mini game would take place after you win on the european map. there would be some info about 'after harrowing months at sea and many storms, your depleted forces land on a new continent.' and the game would take say 10% of your forces from the end of the europe map and put them on the new unexplored map, with you in control of one fort/city.

Yeah, I doubt they'll be SP playable. The game ends in 1530....wasn't America discovered in 1492? Yes. I don't remember when Mexico itself was discovered. Seems like an awfully short time for a playable faction to be active. That is unless it is a mini campaign as suggested.

Quite possible, although Im not really sure what is meant by all this...

Prelude to an expansion pack possibly? I mean, I doubt they would do viking invasion II would they?

Personally if the map is expanding I felt it should have strayed east a bit...see what those guys were up to!

No, i imagine it would be a side-campaign to your main campaign. It would do as Nokhor suggested, with a notice notifying you of many harrowing months at sea and the discovery of a new world, then take 10% of your forces and give you the option of switching to and fro from the main Euro campaign to the America's, where many other European nations have established towns there.

Or, to make the Aztecs interesting in SP, they'll have many other tribes to fight, like Red Indians and Mayas.

Actually the Aztec's capital city Tenochitlan had a larger population than any other European city when it was "discovered" by the Spanish.

They (and all the Amerindian empires) were so easily conquered for a series of factors:

a) The Spaniards allied themselves with ethnic minorities which weren't happy at all with their master's rule.

b) The Amerindian kingdoms were politically unstable and in some cases they were fighting a civil war when the Spaniards arrive.

c) They regarded the Europeans as demigods in some cases, as they matched the description of some of their prophecies (were taller, in some cases they had blue eyes and were blond and had body hair, all of which couldn't be found in the American continent).

d) The Spaniards had three secret weapons:
1- Horses: This weren't found in the new world.
2- Gunpowder: Even though at the time it wasn't that much useful.
3- Spanish Iron: remember MTW? Golden Armor and Golden Weapons? If you can beat the crap out of any nation in MTW with those upgrades what makes you think that a technically less developed nation could stand against it? In many cases the Amerindian's weapons were ineffective against the European armor, they had to aim to their legs and so, the most famous (or infamous) weapons they had were either maces or poisonous darts, because those were their only effective weapons.

e) Let's give Spain a little of credit here, at the time they were the strongest nation in Europe, the had control over the low countries, parts of Italy, Germany, North West Africa and Spain itself. So the aborigens weren't fighting a minor power, they were fighting against "The Man".

So if you want to play with the Aztecs be ready to:
a) Don't have access to cavalry of any sort.
b) Have a great deal of dissent.
c) Defend against top notch troops but in low quantities.



But until then, the Aztec's player main concern would be unrest and minor tribes I guess...

If the Aztecs are a faction with Central and South America apparently in the game surely another Indian faction must be in the game either the Incas or maybe the Mayans. You can't have all that land mass and just one faction.

But as we know nothing really yet it is too early to speculate

I don't think they will be playable in SP, you can probably achieve extra 'glory' and a lot of extra cash if you are the first to discover the Americas and the Aztecs. Maybe it will count towards GA points ?

If they include Mayas they will become another "Greek City States" faction with all Maya city states united and soldiers with 600-900 AD weapons and uniforms.:furious3: :wall: :no:

The Aztecs should in no way be related to any game about the Medieval period. They have no cavalry, are not even close to the Geographical region that the Medieval era occured in, and their inclusion would be extremely foolish. Expand East, where interesting and relevant to the rest of the people in the game stuff happened, not the West.

I dont understand the aversion to the Aztecs or the game continuing on beyond 1453. After the fall of Constantinople European efforts turned to finding a westward route to India so the inclusion of the Aztecs in the 1492-1530 span of the game is perfectly justifiable.

My only complaint would be how to make the Aztecs challenging opponents as an end game climax. By 1492 most players wont have any serious rivals left in the Old World to compete with, whilst if it comes to some 10% thing people will spend the last few turns min-maxing by disbanding all their bad troops and building loads of elites to ensure the 10% is as big and deadly as possible.

I can only imagine the New World will be a seperate campaign start, wholly seperate from the Old World campaign - with maybe the benefits of new world empires abstracted in the Old World campaign.

Because it was not Medieval. Try and think of this from a player that specializes in Eastern factions. It would be illogical for the Seljuqs, Mongols or Byzantines to try and sail to the America.

I think it would allow a mini campaign as the aztecs were you have to unite Middle-America and build up defenses for the enivitable Spanish invasion and fight for your existence. I think it could be fun, a bit like the mongol invasion campaign in STW-MI.

i think aztecs against the eastern europe factions could be very intresting (anbd different) its onlky a computer game...so it doent have to be all that acurate, and it might make for better gameplay/etc.

Any ideas of what units they will have? I think ther will be jaguar and maybe eagle warriors, not sure about any more tho.

Cortez did conquer them in 1521.

So I see no reason why they should not be in it. Though I do believe it will be a seperate campaign.

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History in the Making
A huge campaign spanning from the years 1080-1530, that will take the player beyond the first Crusade up until the dawn of the renaissance. An extended campaign map will allow passage to South and Central America bringing the player into battle with the Aztecs.

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The first sentence describes one campaign. The second sentence describes another.

As the Atlantic would take up loads of the map, the scale of the mini-map would be even smaller to that extent that fans of the mini-map would need to press the zoom button more than five times to be able to discern the terrain reasonably well. So, the assumption that there will be an Aztec mini campaign is likely.

Came to think of something... it would take years to learn all the names of the Aztec cities, units, generals and buildings. And people used to say that Roman unit names were hard to spell when RTW was released...

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Because it was not Medieval. Try and think of this from a player that specializes in Eastern factions. It would be illogical for the Seljuqs, Mongols or Byzantines to try and sail to the America.

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Lets remember that the discovery/conquest of the americas is at the end of the campaign, and that historically it was done by Spain, the dominant european power of the time. If your Seljuks, Mongols or Byzantines are by that time the dominant power, why shouldn't they go in for some aztec bullying?

Total historical accuracy would mean watching a documentary, not playing a game.

Personally I'm really curious about the Aztecs.
They will be sitting on the continent for quite some time so I wonder what CA has in store for us so that we won't be bored with them.

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Originally Posted by TB666

Personally I'm really curious about the Aztecs.
They will be sitting on the continent for quite some time so I wonder what CA has in store for us so that we won't be bored with them.

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We won't be playing them... Playing against them perhaps. Or if the game is a twogame setup (like with MTW and STW) then we have them and the Spanish/some other European power.

Medieval should really focus on Europe, Middle East and Asia 1530 is stretching the period too far

From 600 - 1453 would be a better suit:

800 years of brutal warfare.

4 periods

600-814: IRise of Islam and the Age of Charlemagne

814 - 1099: The Divided World (large empires have begun to split. eg. Carolingian EMpire, Abbasid EMpire weakens after Harun Al Rashid)

1099-1291: Age of the Crusades and Mongols

1291 - 1453: The House of Osman

Byzantium in Americas?

"Greek Fire devastastes the whole Amazon Forest"

I think it will be especially interresting for a "Mesoamerica" Bonus Campaign where it starts off with the Conquistadors, the Maya, the Aztecs, and various other groups...

the Aztecs and Maya had warriors with obsidian bladed weapons that could slice a horse's head clean off.

the elite warriors were at the front lines with the lesser warriors behind. it was also a 'capture as many enemies as possible for slavery' type battle.

there wasn't much in the way of formations, and battles were often at a stalemate until the conquistadors arrived with their cannons to break up formations as the allies of the Spanish charged into enemy troops.

a defeat in battle would mean being forced to pay tribute to those that defeated you, the Aztec Empire in particular was an economic empire where numerous cities had to pay tribute. it was not a territorial empire... so the Total War system may have to have some changes for this...

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Originally Posted by Claudius the God

a defeat in battle would mean being forced to pay tribute to those that defeated you, the Aztec Empire in particular was an economic empire where numerous cities had to pay tribute. it was not a territorial empire... so the Total War system may have to have some changes for this...

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I thought RTW had regular tributes....
im prety sure i remember having some babarians and the greeks paying 4 my new ships at 1 point and laughed about it.

But apart from that.

I want to ask why do you beleve that they would not include the whole map in from the begining?

Its been customry in the past. for the whole map to be used in the campaign.
and then add on extra sub campaigns with an expantion,
What you sudgest is that thiw will be MTW2 And the Aztec's Expantion. (extra units extra land exetera)

I dont know if this is true at all.

But personally i would imagine that the whole lot would be there at the same time.
as one campaign.

Then as with STW and MTW and now RTW. An add on at a later date
So i guess... I would say:
be on the look out for VI 2 in the not to distant future.

If ive already been proven wrong please let me know :)

But honestly i beleve the aztecs will be in the main campaign with evwry 1 els.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

I don't think they will be playable in SP, you can probably achieve extra 'glory' and a lot of extra cash if you are the first to discover the Americas and the Aztecs. Maybe it will count towards GA points ?

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That sounds actually very reasonable. I could imagine that only late in the game you will get the capability to actually cross the ocean (could be something that is triggered after e.g., 1450 if you have the necessary techs/buildings).
I think that could actually add an interesting aspect to later part of a campaign.

Being the faction that dominates the "New World" could then give you indeed the edge to win the campaign (via GA or domination ... or perhaps another way that CA might plan to include).

I agree that it will be rather unlikely that Aztecs will be included as a playable faction in the main campaign.

Perhaps as mentioned previously, it could be a hint of what a future expansion pack could be "Medieval Total War 2: European Invasion". Which is just so cool.Considering the fact that the last 2 expansion packs involved Europe getting invaded. ~:cheers:

So does CA ever come here to get ideas? I rather like the idea of a separate campaign for the Aztecs. Sure, the game would be a much smaller time period (what, about 38 years?) so make it 12 turns per year, or 6 or something a long those lines. The Aztecs seem like a lot of fun to play with (until they meet steel...), but I have lots of questions about how they are going to mix with everyone else. Aztecs in Europe maybe? That would be a long voyage in a little canoe.

Azi

we get CA people hovering about.
They reply at times to posts.
So yeah i guess they stick around and see what the endusers would most like.

I still dont think the aztecs will be a seperate campaign.
They usualy bring in New time periods with expantions.

although having said that the origional MTW did have a few diferent campaigns. depending on which period of the middle ages it was,

but added a nother with VI.

STW. just seemed to have Sengoku jidai period,
And then had MI as an expantion.

It seesm to me that if the astecs arent included in the main strat map.
that they could technicaly be classed as an expantion within its own rights.

Personaly i see thae game as historically acurate to a point,

for instance In real life the welsh didnt take over all of britain and send the english packing.
But in the game i can make it happen.

So just becous Astecs wernt discoverd in real life untill a certain period To me that dosent mean We should be resticted to only finding them at that specific time,

After all. By then the spanish could be dead,
So they wouldnt be there to historicaly re inact the discovery.
So why would it need to be so acurate? When the rest of the game lets you chnage history.

Way i see it Id like to play as the aztecs.
but not do the same mistakes they did, so there for i can take over the world.

Just like using the welsh in VI,
They never actualy did the things i made them do,
But thats how the game works.

If the game was to be 100% historically accurate, There would be no point playing.
Youd just start up the game.

and watch the english take over. Thats what really happend.

I hope you see what i mean.

The Aztecs are surprising. If they are done the right way they could be fun without being too wildly inaccurate. This would require severe limitations upon the number of European troops available to send to the new world. If we have to recreate the conquests of Cortes and Pizarro with hardly more men than they had it could be a lot of fun to try. The 1530s end date also makes the slate cleaning effect of disease a non-factor in an Americas campaign. It could work something like this: You spend time and money to buy an event that lets you send an expedition to America. A Crusade sort of, but with a very small force. When you arrive in Mexico (if you arrive), you encounter the Aztecs and either make them allies somehow or you attempt to take Tenoctitlan by force with your tiny army in an effort to steal all the gold. Make friends and you gain regular trade income. Plunder the place and you earn enough money to crush your enemies for decades. Fail and whole thing is a bust.

I hope CA resists the temptation to make the Aztec soldiers into more than they were. Numbers were the only thing these people had going for them. It might have been enough. It should never be possible for the Americans to win a pitched battle against a large European army. On the other hand, that’s a moot point since it should not be possible to get a large army to America at all in the early 16th century.

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Originally Posted by The Blind King of Bohemia

If the Aztecs are a faction with Central and South America apparently in the game surely another Indian faction must be in the game either the Incas or maybe the Mayans. You can't have all that land mass and just one faction.

But as we know nothing really yet it is too early to speculate

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yeah i though that too...

where are the Carib, the mayans and the inca's...i dunno how big the region is but i doubt it will cover only aztec ground

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

I don't think they will be playable in SP, you can probably achieve extra 'glory' and a lot of extra cash if you are the first to discover the Americas and the Aztecs. Maybe it will count towards GA points ?

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That's is what I think too. Sort of "GA" point in MTW. The cash bit isn't going to be useful at this stage of the game (may be it will if we go back to 4 seasons turn as in STW or at leat 2 seasons as RTW).

I hope, if it is on the camapign map, that the modders will kill them!

I think the inclusion of Aztecs/America is a bad idea, and that resources should be focused elsewhere. I may be wrong. If they do indeed have Aztecs in the game, I hope I'm very wrong indeed. I'd prefer an eastward map expansion.

I never thought i would see the americas implemented in a total war especially in this time frame and i'm going to love it, i know i am. I'm glad there isn't a massive expansion to the east but you never know, the map might be bigger in east as well as west

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Originally Posted by Paul Peru

I think the inclusion of Aztecs/America is a bad idea, and that resources should be focused elsewhere. I may be wrong. If they do indeed have Aztecs in the game, I hope I'm very wrong indeed. I'd prefer an eastward map expansion.

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+ 100.000

aztecs many piece of nonsense
big nonsense
..............................................

The map should be between The 25th and the 65th North latiudes---20th West and 75th East parallels.

The Aztecs may not even be playable in the main campaign... it could just be a big historical campaign with battles only...

perhabs but i think we will see it in the next time. I`m sure that we will get some information about it

I hope that any expantions will encapsulate what happend in the east.
Whilst i also hope that the aztecs will be in the main campaign.

I dont see the problem, with me finding the aztecs before the spanish historically did.
I do a lot of things in the game which arent historically correct.
Like defeat the english and banish them to saxony.

I dont see how this is any less historically acurate than discovering the aztecs at an earlier datew with a diferent faction than the spanish.

I'm very surprized to see only passing references to disease. The effect of disease may have taken decades to fully run its course through Mesoamerica, the effect on the Aztec's capital city in Cortez campaign was swift and apocalyptic.

If CA models the "plague" effects remotely realistically, the Aztecs wil not be fun to play.

yeah right