Gay muslims

on channel 4 it was very interesting program, about the things that gay muslims must suffer

I am neither gay nor muslim, and for this it was very saddening

one bloke was refused access to see his children because the mother thought he would influence thier sexuality
And i know islam is not prejudice in any way, but in the koran for instance apparantly the punishment for being gay is being stoned to death, yet adultery's punishment is cutting your hands...

in the U.K it is very odd for this intolerance to continue, and the things they suffer by their families are very harsh..

You can appreciate that their parents were brought up in foreign countries where the 'punishments' are openly practiced, but it is very bad that people should suffer this ..


anyway i found it very interesting, did anyone else watch it?

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And i know islam is not prejudice in any way, but in the koran for instance apparantly the punishment for being gay is being stoned to death, yet adultery's punishment is cutting your hands...

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*logical whiplash*

But don't you see? Imposing our ideas of morals and values-which are all relative anyway-on a different culture is evil cultural imperialism! We have to respect and celebrate our differences in culture, because all cultures are equal, no matter what we feel about what they do.:dizzy2:

Crazed Rabbit

i didnt mean in those countries- i meant in the UK where these things should be tolerated. I meant that the parents of these gay muslims came from a different generation and country where this stoning is quite normal...

also, the parents view it very seiously although the koran in many minds never actually stated anything about homosexuality, instead stating men raping men. it is very ethical and will never be agreed on but hey

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Originally Posted by Lentonius

on channel 4 it was very interesting program, about the things that gay muslims must suffer

I am neither gay nor muslim, and for this it was very saddening

one bloke was refused access to see his children because the mother thought he would influence thier sexuality
And i know islam is not prejudice in any way, but in the koran for instance apparantly the punishment for being gay is being stoned to death, yet adultery's punishment is cutting your hands...

in the U.K it is very odd for this intolerance to continue, and the things they suffer by their families are very harsh..

You can appreciate that their parents were brought up in foreign countries where the 'punishments' are openly practiced, but it is very bad that people should suffer this ..


anyway i found it very interesting, did anyone else watch it?

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What these people don't seem to realise that if they come to a Christian Country (i.e. the UK) they should obey our customs just as much as we would if we moved to an arab country (i.e. Saudi or Egypt)

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Originally Posted by Ianofsmeg16

What these people don't seem to realise that if they come to a Christian Country (i.e. the UK) they should obey our customs just as much as we would if we moved to an arab country (i.e. Saudi or Egypt)

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Um... isn't Westerners in Arab countries not obeying local customs one of the reasons we have terrorists trying to kill us all (aside from sheer homicidal lunacy, that is)? Not saying terrorism is in any way justified, of course (you have to add that disclaimer or people accuse you of supporting terrorism).

Come to think of it, the only reason those Arab countries exist for Westerners to go in the first place to is that Europeans went there and drew up their boundaries during the colonial era, ignoring local custom! Europeans have trampled over local customs the whole world over for centuries.

I happen to dislike Islam for the most part (some good has come of it, just as in all other religions). But I don't think we can reserve the criticism of not observing local customs to Muslim immigrants. It's just that it's more obvious because there are a lot more Muslims entering Europe than vice versa (since Europeans have no real reason to emigrate to the Middle East en masse).

i think ianofsmeg was trying to get across that being a saudi or whatever immigrant to the UK, a tolerant place of most types of people, they should be expected to be less intolerant of minorities such as muslim gays as really that is unfair.

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Originally Posted by Ianofsmeg16

What these people don't seem to realise that if they come to a Christian Country (i.e. the UK) they should obey our customs just as much as we would if we moved to an arab country (i.e. Saudi or Egypt)

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That only seems to be a one way street. Probably because if you disrespect the culture in an Arab country- at best, they won't do business with your organization -at worst, some nutter will kill you. I don't think either of those holds true for Western cultures. ~D

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Originally Posted by Ianofsmeg16

What these people don't seem to realise that if they come to a Christian Country (i.e. the UK) they should obey our customs just as much as we would if we moved to an arab country (i.e. Saudi or Egypt)

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It doesn´t have anything to do with a "christian country". They should tolerate gays in whatever country because gays have the right to be tolerated.

If muslim, especially Arab, countries stoned every man who committed sodomy to death then they would have precious few men left.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

It doesn´t have anything to do with a "christian country". They should tolerate gays in whatever country because gays have the right to be tolerated.

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Depends on the country.

I do wonder if all the fundementalist nut-jobs out there are now going to be targeting 'fellow' muslims in there obssesive desire to impose their morality upon everyone who has the temerity to disagree with them...

Should be interesting...

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Originally Posted by Lentonius

one bloke was refused access to see his children because the mother thought he would influence thier sexuality
And i know islam is not prejudice in any way, but in the koran for instance apparantly the punishment for being gay is being stoned to death, yet adultery's punishment is cutting your hands...

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No comment on this particular topic, In islam its stated that homosexuality is forbidden, for a variety of reasons that i can't be bothered mentioning becuase it would drag down this discussion.

I'm posting this to correct the quote in particular, officially Adultery is punishment by lashing 300 times outside of wedlock to both sides, man or women (NOT RAPE, for rape its death penalty for men* only, and no Iran is not the official representative of Islam). In Wedlock, commiting adultery is punishable by death.

*Women can't rape, so they get the 300 lashes.

Now since i'm a citizen of the UAE, my country being a majority muslim, doesn't follow any of these laws since we believe that the prophet in particular stated that we should be forgiving, so most crimes its jail here, except for murder, its punishable by death penalty. I do believe alot of other arab countries do not follow these laws as well, most cases are mostly found in Saudia Arabia.

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Originally Posted by faisal

I'm posting this to correct the quote in particular, officially Adultery is punishment by lashing 300 times outside of wedlock to both sides, man or women (NOT RAPE, for rape its death penalty for men* only, and no Iran is not the official representative of Islam). In Wedlock, commiting adultery is punishable by death.

*Women can't rape, so they get the 300 lashes.

Now since i'm a citizen of the UAE, my country being a majority muslim, doesn't follow any of these laws since we believe that the prophet in particular stated that we should be forgiving, so most crimes its jail here, except for murder, its punishable by death penalty. I do believe alot of other arab countries do not follow these laws as well, most cases are mostly found in Saudia Arabia.

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So, do women get 300 lashes if they're raped, or only for adultery? And does the severe penalties in Iran and S.A. stem from the Wahhabi (sp?) fundamentalist sect?

It's a pity more Muslims countries aren't like the UAE.

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It doesn´t have anything to do with a "christian country". They should tolerate gays in whatever country because gays have the right to be tolerated.

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Darn right.

Crazed Rabbit

Wahabism is a sect related to sunni Islam, so I'd be suprised if there are many (if any) wahabists in Iran.

Wahabism is a cursed sect in Islam, just making a random point...

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Originally Posted by Red Peasant

If muslim, especially Arab, countries stoned every man who committed sodomy to death then they would have precious few men left.

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Exactly.

This thread is gay

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

So, do women get 300 lashes if they're raped, or only for adultery? And does the severe penalties in Iran and S.A. stem from the Wahhabi (sp?) fundamentalist sect?

It's a pity more Muslims countries aren't like the UAE.

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Commiting adultery, women who get raped are not punished, but there are cases were women confess that they seduced men, in that case both are punished, becuase originally it usually is always the males fault, since (from what i learned) its emphasised that men should be more disciplined and its usually their fault when sexual crimes are commited.

I thought that picking on gays would unite the Islamic and Christian nutters. They both love this kind of thing. A chance to pick on a small undefended group that has no real bearing on the fundamental problems of this world. A perfect distraction for the fact that their religious practices are making little improvement to people's real lives.

"Gay Muslims" is an oxymoron. They do not and cannot exist. Anyone who is a slave to his own lusts rather than a slave to the will of God is not qualified to call himself or be called a Muslim.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

"Gay Muslims" is an oxymoron. They do not and cannot exist. Anyone who is a slave to his own lusts rather than a slave to the will of God is not qualified to call himself or be called a Muslim.

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Where did you get this from?

I assume you have the same view with regarding to Christians?

Where exactly does it say in the bible that you have to be "perfect" to call yourself a Christian?

A quote about throwing the first stone comes to mind...

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Where did you get this from?

I assume you have the same view with regarding to Christians?

Where exactly does it say in the bible that you have to be "perfect" to call yourself a Christian?

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It's very clear in the Koran and yes the same view applies to Christians too.

It's not about being "perfect".

It is about not willfully indulging (and being happy to) in gratifying one's own perverse lusts instead of submitting to God's will.

I don't care what they get up to because I believe in freedom of personal choice in such matters, but I resent the hypocrisy of senior Islamic figures in the UK, such as Sir Iqbal Sacranie and his cronies, lecturing the people of Britain on such matters. If they want a state with a theist so-called morality then they are in the wrong country, maybe Saudi Arabia would suit them.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

It's not about being "perfect".

It is about not willfully indulging (and being happy to) in gratifying one's own perverse lusts instead of submitting to God's will.

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Actually what you say is about being "perfect". If you "commit a sin" you are doing so "willfully" (or are you already sinning if you are doing something against your will?).

So any person who somehow violates the teachings of the bible cannot call him/herself Christian?
Do you always follow, all rules mentioned in the bible, Navaros?

Could it be that gay people are just the favourite pet peeve of "Christians" who presume to judge other people in the name of their God?

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Originally Posted by Navaros

It's very clear in the Koran and yes the same view applies to Christians too.

It's not about being "perfect".

It is about not willfully indulging (and being happy to) in gratifying one's own perverse lusts instead of submitting to God's will.

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Youve got a log in your eye Navaros...

Untill there is better understanding of the social and biological conditions that result in someone being gay we should assume that it is not their fault.

All the gay muslims of the show said they were born gay, and I beleive this to be true...

Because not many people would choose to be gay, they are gay and know no different

In Iran it is punishable by death to be a homosexual. But if you get a sex-change operation it is ok (to be gay). ~:dizzy:

i think although in the UK this may be viewed as cruel countries should decide their own rules and customs to their liking.

It only becomes a problem when people move into the UK treating their kids like toilet slurry because their gay.

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In Iran it is punishable by death to be a homosexual. But if you get a sex-change operation it is ok (to be gay).

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:dizzy2:

So, if a woman in Iran got a sex-change they would have more rights and if a man got a sex-change they lose some of there rights? I don't know what the state of women's rights are in Iran, but I would imagine it is not good.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Actually what you say is about being "perfect". If you "commit a sin" you are doing so "willfully" (or are you already sinning if you are doing something against your will?).

So any person who somehow violates the teachings of the bible cannot call him/herself Christian?
Do you always follow, all rules mentioned in the bible, Navaros?

Could it be that gay people are just the favourite pet peeve of "Christians" who presume to judge other people in the name of their God?

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I am not perfect and indeed no man is perfect, all are sinners.

However, there is a huge difference between slipping now and then and sinning; then acknowledging the mistake and repenting from it. And purposely sinning continuously and living a lifestyle based that.

"Gay people" are not comparable to "general sinners" for this very reason.

I think what Nav is saying is that being gay and acting on it is a lifestyle choice, wich sets it apart from other sins like lying and stealing...well actually if you're a politician that could be your lifestyle too :laugh4:
In most christian doctrines sins are forgiven as long as you regret committing them, wich can't really be said if you've made it a central part of your lifestyle.

I don't agree that homosexuality is a sin, and I've got a couple of gay friends myself. But Navaros' beliefs certainly are a way you can interpret the old testament, among others.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

They both love this kind of thing. A chance to pick on a small undefended group that has no real bearing on the fundamental problems of this world.

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Undefended..

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Originally Posted by Navaros

I am not perfect and indeed no man is perfect, all are sinners.

However, there is a huge difference between slipping now and then and sinning; then acknowledging the mistake and repenting from it. And purposely sinning continuously and living a lifestyle based that.

"Gay people" are not comparable to "general sinners" for this very reason.

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And also because most men think gay sex is "icky," while other sins like, say, having sex before marriage, are at least esthetically pleasing.

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Originally Posted by Lentonius

And i know islam is not prejudice in any way, but in the koran for instance apparantly the punishment for being gay is being stoned to death, yet adultery's punishment is cutting your hands...

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How exotic :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Navaros

I am not perfect and indeed no man is perfect, all are sinners.

However, there is a huge difference between slipping now and then and sinning; then acknowledging the mistake and repenting from it. And purposely sinning continuously and living a lifestyle based that.

"Gay people" are not comparable to "general sinners" for this very reason.

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I am perfect and not a sinner. Dispute that. :no:

I might as well be gay just to show the hypocrisy of your beliefs, but I can't keep my eyes off the Babe Thread, so...

Prosecution of gays and discrimination of gays because of their lifestyle is like the Jim Crow laws all over again.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

I am not perfect and indeed no man is perfect, all are sinners.

However, there is a huge difference between slipping now and then and sinning; then acknowledging the mistake and repenting from it. And purposely sinning continuously and living a lifestyle based that.

"Gay people" are not comparable to "general sinners" for this very reason.

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youve still got a log in your eye

i don't understand gay people so how can i judge them?

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

youve still got a log in your eye

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Ohh... that would be painful :freak: