Religious intolerance or freedom of speech.

Those who have been following the news here in the North of Europe haven’t missed the latest events in Palestine. I am not talking about the elections, but the latest play by extremists and religious leaders.
To sum up for the uninitiated; A Danish newspaper published some time ago a few caricature comic strips depicting Mohammed the prophet. Last year a Norwegian Christian magazine did the same.
The extremists in Palestine burned earlier this week a Danish flag and a Norwegian one in protest and gave warnings about violence and death. Danes and other Scandinavians has been beaten up in Muslim nations and Danish goods has been boycotted in stores in Muslim nations.
The threats against Scandinavians have escalated, the extremists promise swift deaths and terror upon the northern infidels. Messages like Death to you all have been painted on Scandinavian flags and burned. Leaders of Middle East nations demand apologies from Denmark and Norway. The Danes have publicly apologised to every Muslim they might have offended. The Norwegian government will not make a formal apology.
Bomb threats have been given several Danish embassies in the world and even the newspaper that first printed the caricatures has been given a bomb threat.
Today several European newspapers including Die Welt, France Soir, Corriere della Serra, La Stampa and El Periodico published the pictures. Tomorrow papers in Switzerland, Holland and others will publish them…

The Islamic extremists cries religious intolerance, the western extremists cries freedom of speech. Us normal people caught in the middle suddenly have a work day with a slighter worsened security.

Oh, the caricatures that will possibly put the org on the “must terrorise list” of the extremists can be found in today’s Die Welt online paper…

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/...enmark20qa.jpg

https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/...nnorway5uj.jpg

Check "A good reminder" thread.

Its been talked about there.

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Originally Posted by faisal

Check "A good reminder" thread.

Its been talked about there.

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Damn... that is what you get for not being here to often... and I did a quick look to see if somebody had posted something... "A good reminder" seemed slightly unlikely to hide this particular topic...

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Damn... that is what you get for not being here to often... and I did a quick look to see if somebody had posted something... "A good reminder" seemed slightly unlikely to hide this particular topic...

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I have to say, they should merge this thread, becuase you do provide important points in your first post, so lets hope a mod does it quick.

These guys really need to ligthen up.

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https://img477.imageshack.us/img477/...ubrule18vv.jpg


https://img54.imageshack.us/img54/29...73012029iw.jpg

https://img54.imageshack.us/img54/13...burning7jv.jpg

https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/...palesti6qu.jpg


Alternatively, you can set 15000 cars ablaze:
https://img472.imageshack.us/img472/...29photo2en.jpg


How many flags do these people have anyway? It's the same picture, same story all the time.


Who has any beef with the Danes or Norwegians? Nobody else on the whole planet. Because that's pretty hard. It's bloody hard to find a reason to pick a fight with those perfectly peaceful, most reasonable societies. :furious3:

Are they determined to fight the entire world? Are they not satisfied 'till they've set the whole world ablaze?
Get a life. The Americans, Europeans and Asians have got one. Get one too. Or don't. Whatever. Just don't take your frustration out on everybody else.

Looks like a good time to buy stock in flag manufacturers...

Drone-san I was just thinking that. Supply flags and zippos to the middle east... maybe make a BBQ that uses flags for fuel or flag fired pizzas?

I do wonder where they get all their flags. I should start up a flag making company in the middle east. You could make shoddy products that aren't in the least even flame resistant (and even advertise that point! "Our Flags Burn Best!") and charge a good deal. Accuse them of not being faithful enough if they don't want to pay too much for a flag.

Crazed Rabbit

you guys got beat...

then again the palestinians knew first hand, and started burning home-made flags.. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by faisal

you guys got beat...

then again the palestinians knew first hand, and started burning home-made flags.. :laugh4:

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I guess they finally saw the irony in buying flags that said "Made in Isreal" or "Made in USA" :idea2:

I almost felt bad laughing at the drawn flag they were burning.:dizzy2: Next they will be making cars of legos and melting them, since the French cars are too far away.

Seriously though, who thinks they are being hardcore by drawing a flag and burning the paper? I'd rather just march around and shoot guns in the air than stoop to burning drawn flags.

Give them flags with invisible ink of the Koran etched into it.

They burn the flag and condemn themselves to hell as the words become revealed in the heat... they burn holy words... should get them in trouble.

Thank God you're on our side Pape.

Oh dear, I fear I've crossed that line again.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Give them flags with invisible ink of the Koran etched into it.

They burn the flag and condemn themselves to hell as the words become revealed in the heat... they burn holy words... should get them in trouble.

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That's not really nice to wish for anyone, to burn in eternal flames.


:skull:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Give them flags with invisible ink of the Koran etched into it.

They burn the flag and condemn themselves to hell as the words become revealed in the heat... they burn holy words... should get them in trouble.

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"Here's an American flag!"

*burning* ::Sees the words::

"April Fools Day!"

Tough love is what I like to call it.

I also like to think terrorists should have instead of a death sentence a life sentence that most insults their internal belief system... as the terrorists should be considered to be heritics with regards to those who peacefully practice... so make so-called muslim terrorists pig herders, christians ex-communicated and then made to help print books on new age learning, abortion clinic bombers should have their sperm or eggs used for DNA research... etc

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Originally Posted by ghost908

"Here's an American flag!"

*burning* ::Sees the words::

"April Fools Day!"

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Or it changes into their own flag... a bit like those t-shirts that change colour.

I just learned from my newspaper this morning that the editor of the French newspaper France Soir has been fired over printing the Danish caricature drawings.

The situation escalates and the extremists are now burning pictures of the Danish prime minister.

https://img505.imageshack.us/img505/...trasjon3km.jpg

I told in my initial post that the Danes have apologized. I guess I was misinformed; it is the Danish editor of Jyllandsposten that made apologies.

The extremists are burning flags with old and powerful symbols… what they don’t realize is that it is the extremists back home that consider our flags holier than holy.
They are burning the Danish and Norwegian right-extremists most prized symbol; the national flags.
The result is that the extremists are pushing their fellow Nordic Muslims in front of the raging Right-extremist steam train, which could lead to serious confrontations.

https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/...denmark5oh.jpg

If this escalation continues I look with worry to the future. Our outer right-wing party; Fremskrittspartiet, did their all time election last year with 22, 1% of the total votes being second after the winners (Labour) that got 32, 7%.
They will continue to point out the cultural problems with our fellow countrymen and women that happen to believe in a different religion.
If Fremskrittspartiet should win an election they could form a government. That would most probably cut all foreign relief and put Norway on the isolationist wave.
Luckily the Norwegian Islamic community is a bunch of level headed and God fearing people, that understand what it is all about. So far the Norwegians have more or less nothing against ordinary Muslims.

Danish extremists are rallying support and want to burn the Koran at the town hall in Copenhagen.
Danish and unknown Muslim hackers are at war. The Danes are hacking (DOS attacks) Al-Jazeera whilst the counter team is nuking the Jyllandsposten website.

Latest in from the press, armed men have surrounded the EU office in Gaza city. They have fired their Kalashnikovs in the air and tried to climb the walls.

Well, despite how tempting it is, it's important to realize that the groups that do this are not the same as the muslim community at large. In a way these actions are a convenient way of finding out who are extremists and who aren't. They have no right to tell what should be legal and illegal in countries others than their own - we won't infringe press freedom. The question is whether the pictures are insulting and harassing in a way that could be seen as illegal by existing law. Can anyone who is good at Danish law practise comment on that? With fairly international law concepts it could be seen as threatening and generalizing in a discriminating way to imply that the Prophet would be a terrorist, on the other hand showing such a picture in a collection of other pictures means the intended interpretation of the whole is more likely intended to not be concentrated on that single picture, but instead by reading the entire message the pictures, and the accompanying text, tries to convey. No matter what, it's according to western law only a borderline case of crime, if sentenced the sentence would be very low. It's important to point out that similar insults to Christian faith have been given, and not punished, in the same countries. Therefore, it's not a case of discrimination of muslim faith, but the way our laws work. However I can understand it's difficult for the muslims who feel offended to realize that, or even obtain such information at all. It's not appropriate to react with hate demonstration so early, before even getting the full knowledge about what happened. For example some demonstrants burned flags of many other countries than Denmark, then in the afternoon the same day said "oops, we got the wrong flag, but we love your nice country so don't worry, we won't harm you". It doesn't give a very serious impression... Plus it's also not very serious to burn the flags of a nation that has little to do with a newspaper in the country publishing something. Burning the flag of a nation is to say that your hatred is directed towards that entire nation, and every human being living in it.

It could be that it's just a temporary reaction and demonstration as a form of entertainment to have something to do. It could be that the entire thing is of the same kind as "we got the wrong flag, don't worry we didn't mean it" and that it'll go away soon. Or it could be, in the eyes of some extremists, an excuse to carry out terrorist actions towards Denmark and other countries (including those whose flags they accidentally burned due to lack of proper information at first). I think it'll become apparent in a month of so from now which way it is.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

I just learned from my newspaper this morning that the editor of the French newspaper France Soir has been fired over printing the Danish caricature drawings.

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True. Jacques Lefranc has been fired yesterday afternoon by the owner of Presse Alliance (publishers of France-Soir). The owner is Egyptian-born media magnate Raymond Lakah. Lakah has issued an apology to Muslims for the printing of the caricatures, stating that the sacking of Lefranc was meant to be 'a strong sign of respect for the beliefs and personal convictions of every individual'.

Of course Lefranc's decision to publish the 12 cartoons was a much stronger sign of respect for the beliefs and personal convictions of every individual, as embodied in the right of free speech.

And it seems that the paper's staff are fighting back. This morning France-Soir carries a photo of three Muslims burning a Danish flag with the caption 'Voltaire help us, they've gone mad!'

In an editorial they write the following (my translation): 'Islam prohibits its believers to depict the Prophet in any way (..) the question that arises is the following: should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement? We know such societies only too well. One example is the Iran of the mullahs. But only yesterday it was the France of the Inquisition, of the stakes, and of Saint Bartholomew.'

Meanwhile I have polser coming out both ears. Is it working? :sick:

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Well, despite how tempting it is, it's important to realize that the groups that do this are not the same as the muslim community at large.

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Looks like you're wrong here, since most muslim gvts asked for apologies to Danemark.


And with Jacques Lefranc just being fired, I'm wondering where's free speech going. That's a total shame, yet no one will bother about it. I mean, what the hell ? For once, a newspaper show its respect for freedom of speech, and poof, the editor is fired ? WTF ? :inquisitive:
I don't even hope for a word from the gvt, since one of our minister said that Free Speech shouldn't conflict with respect of different religions.

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"should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement?"

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This was my big issue too. Sure, if I were a devout muslim, the pictures would make me angry. I don't care if they boycott the newspaper, but to boycott the entire country because the government won't apologize for not repressing that speech? That's just ridiculous. I hate every sort of censorship. Controlling the communication of ideas, because of their content, is the most tyrannical and unjust thing a government can ever do.

IMO, religious intolerance, as manifested in communication, and freedom of speech are totally compatible.

https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/...yofevil1oj.jpg

http://alghurabaa.co.uk/

The world has a new axis of evil... with a sleight to the godhood.

A tiny little bit of good news, a Jordan newspaper published the cartoons with the following message : muslims in the world be reasonable.

Now that may be too much to ask, but it is at least one man.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

I don't even hope for a word from the gvt, since one of our minister said that Free Speech shouldn't conflict with respect of different religions.

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From what I have understood the government has stated that freedom of speech should be exercised 'wisely', not that everyone's right to free speech should be curbed.

The government merely distances itself from France-Soir which is held 'solely responsible for publishing the caricatures'. And rightly so, since governments are not in the business of caricaturising prophets.

It would be a different matter altogether if Matignon or Beauvau (Interior Ministry) were to pressure papers to apologise, desist, etcetera. From what I have read in the French press this has not happened in the case of France-Soir, but maybe you have other/better info that says they did.

First of all, illustration of Hz. Muhammed is banned. That's something from the start. This is intended to save the figure from being included in any means of corruption. You see how "illustration" worked out lately. This is religion, it has rules on its own that is conveyed from the superior creator, therefore it will be a more productive debate if the discussion is not about the religion. Some guy in the recently closed thread of Fragony mentioned that Christianity grew up and that it was Islam's turn. Well, if you accept the superiority of a being then it is utterly the rejection of it if humans "grow" it. The religious disciplines are built to teach to the humankind, it's not a play-dough. The "interpretion" and "retouching" are different concepts, by the way. Interpretion may shed light onto what was meant to be by the religion, but "growing" equals to "retouch" and Islam does not need it and people banned from doing such.

IIRC, the German newspaper Bild had committed such a foul, and it had been approached by negative responses from the Muslim world as well, however they had apologized for the matter and it was peaceful again, wasn't it ? Correct me if I'm wrong though, it's been some time. We need "common sense" at social level, that's not job of governments. Governments, as several patrons said in the "A Good Reminder" thread, have (and should not have) no force if there is something called "freedom of speech" over there. Anyway, didn't the related newspaper apologize for the matter ?

Burning flags ? No way. This is absolutely primitive. However considering the facts and differences between the societies, this was predictable -not rightful. Those of you who are furious towards seeing your flags burned, I share your feelings.

Though things seem a bit out of control, there is still a chance for common sense to work out -and of course the newspaper did not apologize already.

Pffft, the french editor got fired bleh.

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take me baby :wall:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Pffft, the french editor got fired bleh.

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take me baby :wall:

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Read me, baby. :wall:

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..In an editorial they write the following (my translation): 'Islam prohibits its believers to depict the Prophet in any way (..) the question that arises is the following: should all those who are not Muslims respect this prohibition? Can we imagine a society in which all the prohibitions of different cultures are added up? What would remain of the freedoms of thought, speech and even movement?..

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I bet my all that there are bunch of sites around in the trash can called internet that has gone even worse with such religious figures. The point is that there should be a point where publicized organizations and people should show responsibility. This is an easily irritated nerve, it is obvious. Would you say the same "application of prohobition to those that are non-blah blah" statement (or BS) if a nationwide newspaper in Turkey charicaturized one wiping somewhere with some European country's flag ? Come on, you can distinguish nuances.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Read me, baby. :wall:

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It says he got fired.

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian. :dizzy2:

Anyway, bruning the flags of countries that have a rather solid nationalistic far right movements isnt the best thing to do. Now they will gain support and then shit might hit the fan.

Just wait a little and some semi-nazi priest in Scandinavia will call for a crusade on the middle-east and so on.

.... humans are pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Lazul

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian. :dizzy2:

Anyway, bruning the flags of countries that have a rather solid nationalistic far right movements isnt the best thing to do. Now they will gain support and then shit might hit the fan.

Just wait a little and some semi-nazi priest in Scandinavia will call for a crusade on the middle-east and so on.

.... humans are pathetic.

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Seconded.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

I bet my all that there are bunch of sites around in the trash can called internet that has gone even worse with such religious figures. The point is that there should be a point where publicized organizations and people should show responsibility. This is an easily irritated nerve, it is obvious. Would you say the same "application of prohobition to those that are non-blah blah" statement (or BS) if a nationwide newspaper in Turkey charicaturized one wiping somewhere with some European country's flag ? Come on, you can distinguish nuances.

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There are many relevant considerations, but amid all these, the right to free speech comes first. Equating Mohammed's message to a call for terrorism is neither appropriate nor helpful, but it is legitimate to express this view in word or image. Deal with it. I would not print most of the Danish caricatures myself but the freedom of others to do so is inviolable.

If the Prophet objects, he can file a complaint or take the issue to civil court. So can his followers.

EDIT
And about the 'flag wiping', I for one wouldn't stop buying Turkish if it happened.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

EDIT
And about the 'flag wiping', I for one wouldn't stop buying Turkish if it happened.

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This really comes as a shock :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It says he got fired.

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There's my boy. :2thumbsup:

Btw, Adrian do you enjoy the danish pølser? Since it is not really working, I hope you like them at least :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Lazul

Great, some newpapers publishes theese picture, the muslim extremists then in turn burn the flags of Denmark and Norway (for some reason not Sweden).

haha, maybe they didnt know wich flag was danish and just bruned both the danish and norwegian. :dizzy2:

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They are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, because a paper in denmark printed the caricatures, and a norewegian paper reprinted the cartoons. Sweden isnt involved yet, so no need to burn your flag, yet.

Now, what about me trying to force some of my chrisitan values in islamic countries? What if "my heart bleeds"(free quote from a muslim on another board) everytime I hear that my saviour Jesus christ is called "just" a prophet?

Funny how the 20-foot wide "Boycott Denmark Products" banner in Sigurd's first foto is in neither Danish nor Arabic, but English.

'Made for TV', I guess.

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

Btw, Adrian do you enjoy the danish pølser? Since it is not really working, I hope you like them at least :idea2:

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To be honest I was joking about the pølser orgy. But we have looked around for Danish stuff in the supermarket and shops yesterday. We came up with Danish butter, cheese (Danablue and Esrom), a tin of 'Danish sausages' (not sure these are pølser), a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf, and some bottles of the inevitable Carlsberg.

A second round might turn up more goodies though. Any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Now, what about me trying to force some of my chrisitan values in islamic countries? What if "my heart bleeds"(free quote from a muslim on another board) everytime I hear that my saviour Jesus christ is called "just" a prophet?

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Jesus is one of the most respected prophets in Islam. No matter how Christianity was deformed, Islam mentions Jesus being holy - like the other prophets are. Islam world has a dense population of mis-interpretors, added the low-life-standard followers, the mess here we are talking about happens.

I'd recommend to ignore such fanatics whereever they are - just like sometimes I do on this forum as well, especially when it is a Islam bashing topic.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf,

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This made me laugh incredible hard, what a silly name for something like kaviar, doesnt sound very encouraging at all.

If you like herring, try some Glyngøre products, carlsberg and tuborg are all right, but since you live in holland/belgium I wundt sacrifice a good blegian beer - even to support denmark.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

To be honest I was joking about the pølser orgy. But we have looked around for Danish stuff in the supermarket and shops yesterday. We came up with Danish butter, cheese (Danablue and Esrom), a tin of 'Danish sausages' (not sure these are pølser), a jar of second-rate caviar called (not encouragingly) Snotolf, and some bottles of the inevitable Carlsberg.

A second round might turn up more goodies though. Any suggestions?

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Remoulade mia muca. Best sauce ever, especially from Graasten Salater. And now that you go viking, buy the movie 'Festen'. Greatest movie ever made.

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There are many relevant considerations, but amid all these, the right to free speech comes first. Equating Mohammed's message to a call for terrorism is neither appropriate nor helpful, but it is legitimate to express this view in word or image. Deal with it. I would not print most of the Danish caricatures myself but the freedom of others to do so is inviolable.

If the Prophet objects, he can file a complaint or take the issue to civil court. So can his followers.

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Responsibility is a must when it is international.. Can't agree.. Whatever..

What were these Danish tastes you were talkin' about again ? :chef:

P.S. Any fan of Swedish chef in Muppet Show here ?

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

If you like herring, try some Glyngøre products (..)

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Of course! Why didn't I think of that before? You guys export all these flat tins with herring in various sauces and marinades, the stuff you use for your smørrebrød. Delicious!

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Remoulade mia muca.

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Thank you, mi dushi.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

And now that you go viking, buy the movie 'Festen'. Greatest movie ever made.

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What makes you think I never watched it? I saw most Dogma movies, but I like Von Trier and particularly his Breaking the Waves best.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

What makes you think I never watched it?

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You didn't start about it ;)

Best movies are made in Scandinavia anyway, have you seen Fanny och Alexander(full cut, 6 hours!)? And Breaking the waves is very good indeed, Lars von Trier is arrogant and pretentious, and rightfully so. The only 'bad' one is the Idiots, it just doesn't work. He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....

This event and the French riots are snapshots into Europe's future. White Europe is dying and the freedom of speech may die with them. If the demographic trend continues "traditional" Europeans will become a minority. Germany and France have been unwilling and unable to assimilate their immigrant population and it seems that Denmark and the UK face a similar problem. The US also is having an immigration problem. Personally, I think I'm going to learn Chinese :stwshame: .

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Responsibility is a must when it is international.

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So is truth. And truth can only be established in free debate, supported by freedom of thought, speech, print and movement. I agree with you that acting responsibly is a moral imperative, hence my rejection of the Danish caricatures as unsuitable and inappropriate. But I support the right of people to depict any prophet any way they fancy. I sincerely hope the other side will show some moral responsibility by not burning national symbols and issuing death threats.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

P.S. Any fan of Swedish chef in Muppet Show here ?

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Hey hey, vhu du yuoo theenk is hees beeggest fan un zee .org mork mork?

http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/...pg.150.150.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You didn't start about it ;)

Best movies are made in Scandinavia anyway, have you seen Fanny och Alexander(full cut, 6 hours!)? And Breaking the waves is very good indeed, Lars von Trier is arrogant and pretentious, and rightfully so. The only 'bad' one is the Idiots, it just doesn't work. He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....

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Kingdom Hospital -- inspired by Stephen King it seems. Never saw the series. Idiots a flop? It could be argued. I thought Dogville would be a total flop, but boy did that empty set work...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

This event and the French riots are snapshots into Europe's future. White Europe is dying and the freedom of speech may die with them. If the demographic trend continues "traditional" Europeans will become a minority. Germany and France have been unwilling and unable to assimilate their immigrant population and it seems that Denmark and the UK face a similar problem. The US also is having an immigration problem. Personally, I think I'm going to learn Chinese :stwshame: .

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Put your hands in the air, put your opinion on the floor and step away from it!

ahhhh god old Europe....so progressive they never miss a chance to defend a ultra conservatist movement :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

[i]
Dogville would be a total flop, but boy did that empty set work...

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Fantastic movie, but boy is it harsh to watch. I showed it to my barbarian friends but they didn't get it. Especially the end is great 'there is a mother with kids, kill the kids first and make her watch, I owe her that' yikes! And vivaldi just rocks.

'Mandys' getting in on the act now....

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Mr Mandelson, the EU's Trade Commissioner, has now been drawn into the dispute as unofficial boycotts of the offending countries swept the Middle East. Two large Danish firms have reported a dramatic fall in sales.

He criticised cartoons as crude and juvenile, and warned British newspapers not to follow their European counterparts in reprinting them.

He said: "I understand on one level the motivation of newspapers to stand up for freedom of speech… but they are almost bound to cause offence." He said that any other re-publication "throws petrol on the flames".

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This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything. It is none of his business and just shows the hubris of the man. Let's face it, he is not really in a position to criticize the press as it was the papers that revealed his unconventional financial dealings.

clicky

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

White Europe is dying...

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Sieg Heil? :tomato2:

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Originally Posted by Lazul

Sieg Heil? :tomato2:

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Call Godwin?

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

First of all, illustration of Hz. Muhammed is banned. That's something from the start.

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Great, they are banned for Muslims. Cool. If the event happened in some thirdworldistan country ruled by [insert some muslim fundamentalist group], that would have been fine. But Denmark is, as far as I know, a tolerant country, with a christian majority, with democratic institutions. I'm fairly sure there are no law in the Danish Constitution or in the Danish law system that ban illustration of Muhammed.
Danes don't have to respect laws or rules that are totally foreign to their country/culture. If the danish muslims don't want their countrymate to draw pics of the prophet, they can try to pass a law for it.

I'm glad european country don't give a crap about rules that were decided by some desert folks centuries ago.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

The government merely distances itself from France-Soir which is held 'solely responsible for publishing the caricatures'. And rightly so, since governments are not in the business of caricaturising prophets.

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Right, the governement has nothing to say there. Yet, apparently, the Quai d'Orsay claimed that free speech shouldn't be used to criticize religious beliefs. I couldn't find sources about that on the net, and since I heard it on TV, I guess it's to be taken with a pinch of salt, but if this is true, this is quite lame, coming from the head of our diplomacy.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

This event and the French riots are snapshots into Europe's future. White Europe is dying and the freedom of speech may die with them.

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Free speech has always been in danger of succumbing to the hysteria of the moment. Remember WWI, Hitler, Stalin, the anguish of the Cold War, the creep towards Big Brother? There have been countless internal and external threats to this hard-fought European tradition. The fact that new threats emerge does not mean that it will simply lie down and die this time round. The fight has always been the same, only the battlefield changed time and again. And it is changing right now. Freedom of speech has found new allies in Asia, Latin America and the Arab world, for instance in Lebanon. Even most Arab immigrants in Europe, many of whom may have trouble adapting to it, couldn't live without it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Danes don't have to respect laws or rules that are totally foreign to their country/culture.

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With all due respect, that is the wrong approach to the issue. Nobody should have to respect an infringement on his right to free speech no matter in which country, no matter under what regime, and no matter what the majority religion says. Freedom of speech is a human right, not a Danish right, and it applies to a couregeous Jordanian paper that publishes the Prophet cartoons just as much as it applies to France-Soir. Freedom has no national boundaries, it is not exclusively Danish or European, Muslims may (and do) exercise it just like anyone else, and it benefits them just as it benefits anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

Great, they are banned for Muslims. Cool. If the event happened in some thirdworldistan country ruled by [insert some muslim fundamentalist group], that would have been fine. But Denmark is, as far as I know, a tolerant country, with a christian majority, with democratic institutions. I'm fairly sure there are no law in the Danish Constitution or in the Danish law system that ban illustration of Muhammed.
Danes don't have to respect laws or rules that are totally foreign to their country/culture. If the danish muslims don't want their countrymate to draw caricatures of the prophet, they can try to pass a law for it. Period.

I'm glad european country don't give a crap about rules that were decided by some desert folks centuries ago.

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Great then, brother, it is a thirworldistan-I-am-European-The-world is-mine-I-am-the-law-I-am-high-like-an-elf syndrome again. I'll leave you in peace.

Look I'll simplify the situation for you :

Islam bans Muhammed's illustration. Danish do it in a humiliating way. Muslims freak out. Some dumb fanatics go burn the flags. Danish companies whine about dramatic decrease in sales. You feel comfortable.

We may be fighting over such an issue over and over again. Neither side seems to understand, has common sense and has the willing to give up their pathetic ways of expression.

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

They are burning Danish and Norwegian flags, because a paper in denmark printed the caricatures, and a norewegian paper reprinted the cartoons. Sweden isnt involved yet, so no need to burn your flag, yet.

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They showed up in a debate article in GT roughly when this started, but appearently the extremists found that lumping Sweden together with Denmark on this issue was wrong and they corrected themself later on. :dizzy2: :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything. It is none of his business and just shows the hubris of the man. Let's face it, he is not really in a position to criticize the press as it was the papers that revealed his unconventional financial dealings.

clicky

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Good link, here's my two favorite parts:

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The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said that the drawings reflected a growing "xenophobic tone" towards the faith in parts of the Western media.

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I understand (but don't sympathize) why Europe seems to be so anti-Christian because of all the problems religion has played in the past. But hell, if these drawings are xenophobic what has Europe been doing to Christianity?

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Carsten Juste: "The dark dictatorships have won," he added.

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That pretty much sums it up for me.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

He also did this weird horror series that I want to have, it is set in a hospital but I forgot the name....

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Riget. Also an american version of it was made. It's scary!

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

Riget. Also an american version of it was made. It's scary!

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Thanks Sjak, I only saw the english version which was quite good but you can't beat the master :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything.

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He is warning them of the consequences, he is not threatening them with legal action or undue pressure if they ignore his words. But he represents all of Europe, and you can hardly expect him to throw more oil on the flames of a row that benefits nobody on either side. On the up-side -- and this is the part you have apparently missed -- he also represents all of Europe when he threatens EU-wide sanctions in response to the Arab boycot of Denmark. In other words, this is a gesture that should make some betowelled gentlemen rather nervous. Guess who depends on whom for financial assistance, trade, technology transfers, etcetera?

In a worst case scenario, if mass boycotts takes place, will Europe not suffer more from it than ME, since they are holding a lot of oil. Of course the norwegians will only become a lot richer, nothing new.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

He is warning them of the consequences, he is not threatening them with legal action or undue pressure if they ignore his words. But he represents all of Europe, and you can hardly expect him to throw more oil on the flames of a row that benefits nobody on either side. On the up-side -- and this is the part you have apparently missed -- he also represents all of Europe when he threatens EU-wide sanctions in response to the Arab boycot of Denmark. In other words, this is a gesture that should make some betowelled gentlemen rather nervous. Guess who depends on whom for financial assistance, trade, technology transfers, etcetera?

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I think you have a hard time reading between the lines.

'He's not threatening with legal action' that is a funny one mia muca.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I think you have a hard time reading between the lines.

'He's not threatening with legal action' that is a funny one mia muca.

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Pray tell me, what legal action would Mr Mandelson take against European newspapers?

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

He is warning them of the consequences, he is not threatening them with legal action or undue pressure if they ignore his words. But he represents all of Europe, and you can hardly expect him to throw more oil on the flames of a row that benefits nobody on either side. On the up-side -- and this is the part you have apparently missed -- he also represents all of Europe when he threatens EU-wide sanctions in response to the Arab boycot of Denmark. In other words, this is a gesture that should make some betowelled gentlemen rather nervous. Guess who depends on whom for financial assistance, trade, technology transfers, etcetera?

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I'm sorry Adrian but that man doesn't represent me or anyone else for that matter. He should keep his unelected, appointed gob shut. If any sanctions are to be imposed then let them be put in place by a democratically elected body. Not by this crony of Tonys.

Still, you are entitled to your view, as am I.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Pray tell me, what legal action would Mr Mandelson take against European newspapers?

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Legal action, what is that? He is just taking a step back, and when someone staps back he gives room for someone else.

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

In a worst case scenario, if mass boycotts takes place, will Europe not suffer more from it than ME, since they are holding a lot of oil. Of course the Norwegians will only become a lot richer, nothing new.

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Do not overestimate Arab oil clout. They can play with volumes and prices, deals and concessions in order to pester Europe, but they are not in a position to shut off the flow. Their unity would soon break up as it always does. Hamas, Syria or Jordan for instance have no reserves whatsoever and they don't exactly need EU trade sanctions, frozen assets and axed subsidies right now.

Oil is all they have. They could shut it down and go into the sandglass business but we already invented the clock.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

I'm sorry Adrian but that man doesn't represent me or anyone else for that matter.

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Yes he does. He has been appointed by democratic consent.

This is how:

• The (elected) EU governments designate a Commission President
• The President-designate is approved by the (elected) European Parliament
• The President-designate presents the other Members of the Commission for approval by all (elected) EU governments
• The (elected) European Parliament interviews each prospective Commissioner and approves the entire team

You may not be happy with his appointment. Nonetheless Mr Mandelson represents the whole EU both legally and diplomatically.

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"I understand on one level the motivation of newspapers to stand up for freedom of speech… but they are almost bound to cause offence." He said that any other re-publication "throws petrol on the flames".

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[sigh] We have to say it again and again and again, don't we? Freedom of speech isn't limited to the freedom to say things that do not cause offence.

You would have hoped Mandy knew that.

Personally I think the pictures should be reprinted in the UK and everywhere else for that matter, until a larger section of the Muslim community accepts that while they are free to consider that a cartoon of Mohammed is the most terrible sin, they are not free to impose that view on secular old me.

Also I feel the flag burning gentlemen will try to rise to the challenge and the Monty Python fan in me enjoys the thought of them scouring the West Bank looking for the flag of Tuvalu and Cornwall and Allah knows where else.

Evidently this will cause some offence. Tough. Perhaps if they would kindly mind their own business instead of poking their noses into other peoples they would go through life less offended.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Legal action, what is that? He is just taking a step back, and when someone staps back he gives room for someone else.

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And here I was thinking Mr Mandelson was stepping forward instead of stepping back.
Is it all a matter of perspective, as they say? :mellow:

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Also I feel the flag burning gentlemen will try to rise to the challenge and the Monty Python fan in me enjoys the thought of them scouring the West Bank looking for the flag of Tuvalu and Cornwall and Allah knows where else.

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What does Tuvalu produce? I mean, in case I need a break from the frikadeller. :sick2:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

And here I was thinking Mr Mandelson was stepping forward instead of stepping back.
Is it all a matter of perspective, as they say? :mellow:

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Depends on how much you value our way of life. It is giving in to blackmail, nothing more. Trying to give in a little to keep the peace is nothing more then a invitation to do worse.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Depends on how much you value our way of life. It is giving in to blackmail, nothing more. Trying to give in a little to keep the peace is nothing more then a invitation to do worse.

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Or an invitation to calm down and prevent worse, according to the principles of what is known in civilised circles as 'diplomacy'. For Pete's sake, a European Commissioner is a diplomat, not a xenophobic street fighter.

BBC has just broadcast the caricatures, nice try Mr Mandelson, to no avail.

Or an invitation to calm down and prevent worse, according to the principles of what is known in civilised circles as 'diplomacy'. [/QUOTE]

Diplomacy has never been civilised, diplomacy is war. Trying to not offend these guys is giving in to threats of a bunch of sandland retards that found another target besides their wives for a change. Why do we always have to act like a abused wife that wonders what she did wrong?

not a xenophobic street fighter.

That's just nasty, I better report.