Tell me this is a bug... or the AI cheat baaaaaad!

Ok, this is the last post of the day i promise.

I spent the whole night playing EB, and to be honnest i like it a lot, but there are some things i saw that make me feel dissapointed.

This is one screen:

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/booker-eb.JPG

What i don´t like?... I´m on the bottom, almost, on every category.. i didn´t try playing with top factions but i´, certain i won´t be there if i do.

Why we can´t be 1 more faction?

and this make me quit the game...
well, actually was a CTD but i was close to quitting anyway.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/booker-EB2.JPG

How is posible? i earn like 200m per turn and the AI can build this army? and look those equipement! :furious3:

I do know the AI cheat on VH, to be honest, i never ever experience this kind of cheating.. what happen?

You have brain, AI have cash.

Dont get bother by CA faction rating.
If you have the same resources as AI then game is not fun becouse as i said you have brain but AI dont.

Good reason :embarassed:

I guess we can´t ask to get fair condition then....


btw, this happen on vanilla as well? coz i never saw this Huge difference between human and AI, even on VH levels.

This is a product of the background script. If you're willing to wade through tons of code, you can probably lower the amounts yourself, but really, the AI needs all the help it can get.

Yeah, unfortunately the AI seems to be beyond idiotic, dumb as the proverbial rock. The only way for it to be able to compete with the human player and actually make it challenging is to help it out quite a bit, and sometimes even WITH all the added help and resources, the AI manages to sit there and do nothing all game.

I've never experienced an AI with that much cash before. But only play on Med. Is that the reason?

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Originally Posted by LorDBulA

You have brain, AI have cash.

Don't get bother by CA faction rating.
If you have the same resources as AI then game is not fun because as i said you have brain but AI don't.

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Clear! no,...Cristal! :2thumbsup:

:juggle2:

It was like that in vanilla also... CA spent more time on graphics than... Well, anything else, and we have to suffer because of it. The only way the AI can ever be even a slight challenge is if they cheat.. And like someone said, they still do rediculous things even then...

Just as an example, and this is the funniest thing i have ever seen... A while back in vanilla, me being the Brutii, the Scipii lost Messana and had only Capua left... Many turns later i noticed they still only had Capua... I had a look to see wtf was up... What did i see? 5 full stack armies stoof outside Capua... They had built so many armies that they couldn't afford a fleet to do anything with them.

It's not so much a challenge for me as it is

1.) Attack and take the weakest border city, declare war on rebels.
2.) Watch as 5 full stacks invade my two settlements, having two army stacks with only 3-5 units per army.
3.) Lose.

It's either that or suffer -12000 profit per turn while having just enough of an army to stay on the offensive while keeping my cities alive and fed while the five nations attacking me refuse to a ceasefire, sacrificing any notion of a navy(making my three settlements on islands fend for themselves).

Even Medium is kicking the crap out of me:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Cheexsta

This is a product of the background script. If you're willing to wade through tons of code, you can probably lower the amounts yourself, but really, the AI needs all the help it can get.

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Well i went back to Vanilla, and i did play same lenght and i didn´t see this crazy stuff on it... i even played RTR, wich i´m playing right now, and same thing.

I don´t want to play a game were all factions are against me, i don´t ask for even resources, but at lease "hide" them...

All factions have full stacks army and you have to disband the few units you have, and even then you earn like 200mnari per turn.... It´s not realistc and it´s not fun either.

For me this is too much i know the AI need tons of help but by doing this you are unbalancing the game on other aspects... anyways,i´ll give a shot when this get released, but it seems dev want to go to other route....

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Originally Posted by booker

I don´t want to play a game were all factions are against me, i don´t ask for even resources, but at lease "hide" them...

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You can't really hide how much money the AI factions have. One of our goals was to make the game a fun challenge, and we think we've done that. One way we've done that is by providing cash infusions to the AI factions. In the original game, you wouldn't see that, they'd just go bankrupt and quit doing anything until you rolled over them. That's not our idea of a fun challenge.

The amount of money the AI receives through our background script is still being refined. We want to make sure they have enough, so it's a careful balancing act. That's where your feedback comes in! :2thumbsup:

@booker,
How do you expect to build an Dacian empire when the Dacians couldn´t? There´s a reason why they are not around, right?!

It´s seems that all factions started out with roughly 35.000m judging from your pic? Have you changed this? If so, there´s nothing to refrain you from giving everyone less and yourself more, right?

There´s hardly any faction in EB that generate a profit from start. You have to cut your expenses by disbanding units, fleets etc or go on an immediate blitz-offensive from turn one. You can´t eat the cake and keep it at the same time. So decide your strategy and go for it. Dacia has a very good starting point, like Sweboz, so you shouldn´t have a problem. If you blitz then simply que up your settlements units rooster for every penny you´ve got and try to expand in multiple directions with smaller bands. Played properly you can be outnumbered 5:1 and still win, keep your cool. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by PseRamesses

@booker,
How do you expect to build an Dacian empire when the Dacians couldn´t? There´s a reason why they are not around, right?!

It´s seems that all factions started out with roughly 35.000m judging from your pic? Have you changed this? If so, there´s nothing to refrain you from giving everyone less and yourself more, right?

There´s hardly any faction in EB that generate a profit from start. You have to cut your expenses by disbanding units, fleets etc or go on an immediate blitz-offensive from turn one. You can´t eat the cake and keep it at the same time. So decide your strategy and go for it. Dacia has a very good starting point, like Sweboz, so you shouldn´t have a problem. If you blitz then simply que up your settlements units rooster for every penny you´ve got and try to expand in multiple directions with smaller bands. Played properly you can be outnumbered 5:1 and still win, keep your cool. Good luck!

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I didn´t change anything but when no matter what faction you played with, you start loosing money and if u don´t disband your armys you go bankrupt... also no matter what faction you play when u compare to the other factions you can see they are doing great from the start...

Your point of the dacian not being able to made a empire is not valid, coz no matter what faction you start with, you have to do all this...

I know the AI need extra cash but i think they went to the extreme, i find funny you all people ask for realism but when it come to this you forget about realism, make it hard, but belivable.

Just see how the other factions are between the 12k and the 48k i´m on the 2k. I hope they tweak this a bit , honeslty it seems like while i build archers the AI is able to build Delta forces with MP5 :(

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I know the AI need extra cash but i think they went to the extreme, i find funny you all people ask for realism but when it come to this you forget about realism, make it hard, but belivable.

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We want realistic results. Because we are moding game that warks totaly different then real life sometimes its necessary to use unrealistic means to get more realistic autcome.

What is more realistic Player faction steemrolling every other faction just because player plays as it, or making it difficult for player to forge empire?

History tells us that forging empires is not easy, and this is realism we want to achieve.

I know they ai get tons o money... now my 2nd question is.. does EB did something to make the AI get thos experience ranks?.. Coz really it only been 260 and they didn´t fight those many battles to earn those... but maybe i´m paranoic or that is hardcoded... any explanation will be good..

If you mean unit experience then the answer is no. We didnt do anything to it, its standard RTW mechanism,

I'm building quite a nice Dacian Empire..The key is patience and intelligent spending. by waiting till the correct moment I can now systematically wipe the rebel cities whilst not losing any cash and can expand and restock my army (singular at present) at will. I'm just about to start tooling up for an assault on Epiros so that could be a fun challenge.

I don´t say it was imposible to build the Dacian empire... in fact, all those army you saw on the pick pass me by... didn´t attack me at all... but it was how they get there what i don´t like...

I want to be part of a living world, while playing EB i feel the CPU is against me, not Rome, germania, Greeks or whatever... AI vs Human... And i don´t like that.

everyone is rich and have many resources but the Human Is poor and don`t have resources...

that is what i mean by this post, i´m certain with patience and building your economy you will be able to get there...

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Originally Posted by booker

I want to be part of a living world....

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Don't we all ... but the'res only so much that can be done with CA's hard coding, especially on the AI.

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Originally Posted by booker

... AI vs Human... And i don´t like that..

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An unfortunate reality.

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Originally Posted by booker

everyone is rich and have many resources but the Human Is poor and don`t have resources... I´m certain with patience and building your economy you will be able to get there...

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Yup.. expand and consolidate, expand and consolidate, etc etc and you can be rolling in the dosh. Current campaign as the Aedui and I'm raking in 16,000 Net per season.

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Originally Posted by booker

I don´t say it was imposible to build the Dacian empire....

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Well, factions that were historically 'up against it' will find it hard in EB.


my2bob

i dont like that AI cheats.. cheating is always cheating i installed this game then it dont even run huoh and now i hear that ai cheating okey will go try this mod again after 6 months... huoh... i suggest that build AI brain script it will not cheat ... make ai build some farms etc to make money or trade other countries and make alliens...

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dont like that AI cheats.. cheating is always cheating i installed this game then it dont even run huoh and now i hear that ai cheating okey will go try this mod again after 6 months... huoh... i suggest that build AI brain script it will not cheat ... make ai build some farms etc to make money or trade other countries and make alliens...

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Nobody can do this. There is no good ai right now. And there wont be for long long time. Unless you are playing some very simple game so human brain is out of equesion because game rules are so simple. Or like in chess there are decades of human experience and analysis that you can plug into program to make smart decisions, but even then you need big ass computer to handle calculations.
If you want to have challenge you have to give ai a head start. There is no other way.

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Originally Posted by avenzer

okey will go try this mod again after 6 months

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I may be misunderstanding this sentence, but I think you are confused about which mod this is. This mod has only been out for 1 month and a half.

Heh, i loved that feeling in M:TW... when it felt like it was the whole CPU controlled world against you. Playing as the Danes i cut a path of destruction through Germany, straight to the Papal states, and then decimated them, and had enemies on all borders, all around me.

It was amazingly fun, constant warfare, and multitudes of armies from around the world assaulting me, since my empire bordered about 8 other nations i was at war with.

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Originally Posted by TheBigJon

Heh, i loved that feeling in M:TW... when it felt like it was the whole CPU controlled world against you. Playing as the Danes i cut a path of destruction through Germany, straight to the Papal states, and then decimated them, and had enemies on all borders, all around me.

It was amazingly fun, constant warfare, and multitudes of armies from around the world assaulting me, since my empire bordered about 8 other nations i was at war with.

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Now that's a fun game.

But people If I'm right they're already working on a more subtile and better way to help the AI.

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Originally Posted by avenzer

i dont like that AI cheats.. cheating is always cheating i installed this game then it dont even run huoh and now i hear that ai cheating okey will go try this mod again after 6 months... huoh... i suggest that build AI brain script it will not cheat ... make ai build some farms etc to make money or trade other countries and make alliens...

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The base A.I. of R:TW is bad, and there is very little modders can do to improve that. If we want to have an A.I. that provides a challenge we have to help it by giving it advantages the human player does not have. In other words: it has to cheat. There is no other option. If there was a way to make the A.I. provide a challenge without giving it these advantages, believe me, the EB team would have tried it. It simply cannot be done.

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Originally Posted by Gertgregoor

But people If I'm right they're already working on a more subtile and better way to help the AI.

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Care to enlighten us? :jumping:

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Originally Posted by GMT

Care to enlighten us? :jumping:

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My whole point with this thread was that i was hardly getting 200 mnari o denarii or whatever, this include disbanding my entire army, leaving only a few units for garrison while the AI was able to build 5 full stacks army or more :(

That is too much if u ask me.... not only this bother me, also i hate the fact the AI units experience was soo high 3 Silver chevron so early in the game. Never happend on Vanilla 1.5

I know the AI has to cheat to make a game challenge, but the AI on VH/VH vanilla cheats as well, but is not that evident when u check the factions rankings.. or when you meet your enemies they aren`t silver and gold chevrons with only a few turns played.

Check the factions financial on first turn... it´s so out of proportion... is really ugly if u tell me.

This is what i didn´t like about it.I love challenge, but when i have simple archers and the AI gets Marines with MP16 it´s not fun.

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Originally Posted by GMT

Care to enlighten us? :jumping:

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Sorry but I don't know much more about it. You'll have to ask that to one of the coders.

EB is harder than vanilla. If someone was barely getting by on VH/H or whatever the level was, they need to maybe start out at an easier level in EB. But the finances work as they should. There will be some tweaks, but no overhauls. Every faction is playable as they currently are, but discretion has to be used. None of these factions conquered the whole map by 150BC or even a quarter of it by 200BC in real life; EB is slower and harder than vanilla for a good reason though.

I read harder and harder and harder and challenge, i think people are blind by this.. if you have archers and the ai has marines will be a lot harder too and challenging too., but at what cost EB is being harder? That is the whole point.

I good mod is not based only on how hard it is, there are many thing including balance, not only on skins and factions also on how the AI interact with the human, making a living world, etc and this is were i think EB fail, EB end up bing AI vs Human.. instead of being factions against factions. AI gets all kind of advantage while human get none...

If i want to play a challenge game i could edit my whole units stats to 1 and i won´t win any battle at all... but this is not the point... i think this AI "help" or handicap need to be tweaked to make it "beliveable" otherwise it´s not feeling right.

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if you have archers and the ai has marines will be a lot harder too and challenging too

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This is not how EB help works. We are not beefing up AI unit stats.
This is what Battle Difficulty does.
Play on Medium battle difficulty (EB recomended) and you wont face any "Marines".

I was refering to the AI getting 3 silver and gold chevron very quickly. Not the Difficulty of the Game.

When you play VH, those 9 of experience are huge and change the gameplay to the wrong side... i´m still wondering why did you guys tweak this.... Specially when they Human units lacks of experience..

I do not seem to have encountered these beefed up units that you say have loads of experience. If I've been warring with a faction their units get better slightly as the war rages on, I don't see any problem with this. I believe that the added mnai to the ai factions is a neccessary evil. One that keeps them from driving themselves into the ground to never recover and to never pose any threat to athe player. Also, the economic situation in the beginning provides the player with tough decisions regarding what to do to expand his/her empire. Decisions that must be made swiftly or else everything will go to ruin, which is something I haven't found in vanilla or any other RTW mod.

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i´m still wondering why did you guys tweak this....

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WE DIDNT CHANGE THIS. I dont know how many times i have to say it.
It cant ba changed (from what i know).
And again we didnt change rate at witch units gain expiriance.

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Originally Posted by LorDBulA

WE DIDNT CHANGE THIS. I dont know how many times i have to say it.
It cant ba changed (from what i know).
And again we didnt change rate at witch units gain expiriance.

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well something happen, i have a VH/VH campagin with Scipii and i didn´t find 1 single army with more than silver chevrons....

On EB i found my first battle with only 10 turns from begining to have 3 gold chevrons and all units with silver chevrons... something happen.

Or CA tweaked the way the AI gain experience on 1.5 patch or something did have a effect on this...

If you want o can´t upload my actual campagin on 1.5 vh vh to check you out.. not 1 single army with gold chevrons... anywhere...

Again, they have stated that they did not change the rate at which experience is gained. They have also stated it can't be changed due to hardcoding. I have had no problem with this, and very few or no other complaints have been levied about the rate with which the ai units gain experience. Perhaps you should try playing on M battle difficulty, as is the recommended level. I don't believe it is related to the experience acquisition by units, but it prevents the ai from getting absurd bonuses.

Maybe the AI just don´t like me.. or they really want to beat me so they cheat even more who knows..


thanks anyway.

Could be troops that were generated in a city rebelling to the AI faction? Those ones tend to come with some extra experience. Peasants in RTW/BI generated in this manner were always 2-3 gold chevrons.

I saw this mainly on Macedonia.. it was year 260 or so.. and they had 5 or 6 full stacks army and 3 of them, had 3 gold and some units with 3 silver chevrons ...

I´m still thinking what could happen since CA didn´t tweak it and EB didn´t modded .

On 1.5 vanilla never had this issue before.

VH with this 9 extra points make the game No fun!.

I've seen this a few times. Most recently in my Pahlava campaign against the Baktrians.

They showed up with some three-bronze-chevron and a silver chevron Mad Asabara cav units. No idea what caused it. Only thing I can surmise is they retrained some of these units.

Incidently, I've come across this situation. A type of government exists in each settlement. An A.I. faction conquers the settlement and builds it's own government. Each of the two government types provides a +1 experience bonus, meaning they can now train +2 exp. units.

The ai is too stupid to retrain units. I think the problem is that since the ai always auto resolves it gets more experience from that. Due to the much slower EB playing style the ai is going around and crushing far more rebels and fighting far more minor battles with other factions, this racks up the experience. After you crush the ai's experienced troops you'll almost never see anymore from that faction if you keep the pressure on, just like in vanilla. It’s never been an issue to me, I usually lose a few battles because of it, but since they don't retrain their good units you can just grind their best down.

I should keep playing maybe they have the first few armys with high experience then the rest are normal.

also if you're playing on VH, the AI gets an attack bonus among other things. therefore more kills in the battles they fight, therefore more experience.

i personally prefer M/M on EB, i find it balanced and still provides a small challenge on this difficulty. no AI bonuses

I always played on VH/VH and i never saw this on RTW vanilla, this is why i´m asking and why i started this thread.

Of course it may be something missing here since DEv didn´t tweaked it, CA didn´t tweaked on Patches... and i´m not crazy :)

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Originally Posted by Sdragon

The ai is too stupid to retrain units. I think the problem is that since the ai always auto resolves it gets more experience from that. Due to the much slower EB playing style the ai is going around and crushing far more rebels and fighting far more minor battles with other factions, this racks up the experience.

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I think so too. This is something that has to do with the AI Autoresolving battles, if you Autoresolve a Battle, your troops are getting expierience faster, but are taking more casualties.
The veteran units of the AI are in most cases very decimated, the more chevrons they have, the more people of that specific unit are dead (the only exceptions are generalls and units that were retrained (what happens very very rarely)
Units that have golden Chevrons are in most case as near as dead (10-1 soldiers)

This happens in RTW, RTR, EB and afaik in every other mod...

I have thought of that, too.

One thing I forgot to mention; in my case, these were full units of Mad Asabara, each with multiple chevrons.

It's not just the cav, Baktria hit me with experienced, full units of Pezhetairoi (multiple bronze chevrons), as well.

I do suppose it could be the result of merging existing units, though, after the AI autoresolves it's battles.

I'm wondering if you guys can do sth about "uberness" of experienced troops? Currently experienced troops are just... Marines:wall: .

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Originally Posted by Mujalumbo

I have thought of that, too.

One thing I forgot to mention; in my case, these were full units of Mad Asabara, each with multiple chevrons.

It's not just the cav, Baktria hit me with experienced, full units of Pezhetairoi (multiple bronze chevrons), as well.

I do suppose it could be the result of merging existing units, though, after the AI autoresolves it's battles.

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check my pic, there are some units, full units with 3 silver chevrons and i saw many with 3 gold chevrons... full units.

The AI must merge units... otherwise this is imposible.

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Originally Posted by Cybvep

I'm wondering if you guys can do sth about "uberness" of experienced troops? Currently experienced troops are just... Marines:wall: .

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Hm? I'm playing on Medium difficulty for the battles, and haven't noticed this uberness.

My pantodapoi phalantagies were doing fine against Baktria's experienced pezhetairoi; my guys were eager and victory was inevitable. The Baktrian general sent his experienced cav and hit the flanks of my archers... and routed them.

I lost that battle, but if I had the archers with spears, things might have turned out differently. The A.I. might be dumb, but you still need to use tactics and devise stratagems to defeat experienced enemy units. Also, things are fairly balanced as is on Medium battle difficulty; setting the battle difficulty to Very High or High would tip the balance too far in the enemy's favour.

Well, I think that the difference between unexperienced and experienced troops should be reduced a little... Oh, and this uberness is mostly noticable with archers and skirmishers, because "leathality" is not working for them...

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Originally Posted by Cybvep

Well, I think that the difference between unexperienced and experienced troops should be reduced a little... Oh, and this uberness is mostly noticable with archers and skirmishers, because "leathality" is not working for them...

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Maybe if u play on Medium this experience don´t bother you at all, but when you play on VH this expereience mean 9 or 12 points more to each units.. is too much... this is why i complain so bad.. on the other hand i don`t find Medium to challenge, coz i have tons of heroic victorys over and over.. so...

I may settle on High.. but i really want to see this AI experience tone down...

This is a common problem with RTW 1.2 patch, there is an uncontrollable spawnfest of brigands that train the Programmed Oponnent's armies so when you fight its armies are with 2-3 golden chevrons, most probably this will be fixed when the EB ports to 1.5 or 1.6.

Hellenes

Finally some reasonable explanation!! :)

And we can't cheat too. So in M/M EB become more difficult than RTW Vanilla. You can play in M/M you will not have the wish to add some money to your treasure or add some soldiers to your army ;). Try M/M that's the solution, EB is different ...

Autoreasolve all your battles. If you win, you gain exp very fast, much higher then fighting it yourself. I think it's because when you fight, half the men in the unit that do the killing die, and take with them a higher then normal part of the unit's experience. but when you auto to it, the kills are spread over all the living men after the battle, so kills don't get wasted on dead men.

And despite what many people seem to think, the ai does retrain units. Unless you can explain full strenge units with triple gold exp.

Also has a sesoned Getai player, yea their campain is pretty tough. Despite having all you did in your 2nd SS *your 1st doesn't work for me* and more, I'm still pretty poor. Probably due to the lack ports/trade items in your lands. Try building mines, there's almost a dozen in the area north of greece. I also modded their unit stats to make them more competative. Plus either the maks or less often, eprius/greece get super rich once they take greece and can afford to send huge armies at you.

Just Komatai Agrianai and HA the maks to death. Works wonders for me before I beefed their inf.

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Originally Posted by Fondor_Yards

And despite what many people seem to think, the ai does retrain units. Unless you can explain full strenge units with triple gold exp.

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Units merging.

Well the ai must have selective merging then, I have seen 2+ small units with high exp in the same army. Considering how many silver exp units I have seen fighting Iberia and the ptolemaics, it seems more likely to have retrained them. I suppose it is possable that all of those units were just merged, but it seems more likely that they do retrain units.

I don`t think so, cuz the AI armies that i`ve witnessed in a battle against their oponents end up with full strenght units with 1 golden chevron, despite every unit in their army having sustained loses.

In countless sieges, I`ve fought units that have 2 warriors in it with silver and golden chevrons (and have been garrisons for more than 2 turns before the actual siege). If the AI does retrain ¿Why didn`t it retrain those units that are defending the settlement against the siege?

If it does retrain, hell, I would be extremely happy. It would justify my exploit of retraining units comprised of 5 warriors with 7 experience. :2thumbsup:

Heh cause the ai is too dumb to retrain it in time?

I think the AI should be able to cheat but only to make up for small things. Making AI units 2x as uber is not a nice idea. If i want a challenge then i war dec 2 factions and if i want a nightmare i war dec 3. So if the AI is totally incompetent at handling settlements then make it setllement A makes up to said amount of income and the rest is done with scripting. I like it when if i blow up half the AI's empire they are half as strong THAT is a good start. In RTR I at least felt like everyone was equal in stats at least if not brains and also the larger your empire gets the less money you get per city because of corruption so it makes troop management much harder. So therefore make the AI get as much money as the best human would get for managing each settlement but no more except on higher difficultys. I like being able to use diplomacy instead of 10000 factions war declaring me and then getting slowly wiped out by me one by one because they concider themselves to be so much stronger then me because the script gave them an infinite amount of money that they are not going to end up spending anyway....
Make AI even not better not worse.
If you want a challenge war dec more then one faction or play a hard faction or wait until your empire gets large and corruption starts to take over or wait until you cant recruit much due to AOR.

I think the most annoying thing about EB is how l33t the AI is and if that is changed that would make a lot of ppl happy.