Natural interventions

After the rtw's terrible weather-handling, I'd really like some development in this theme. Ok, they've already said that more stress will be laid on it, but I'm a bit sceptic...

Probably we'll see some rain and maybe snow, but in my opinion in such a ambitious game, that will be a bit slight. What I'd like too see (it's not a geographical list, just some wish):

- rain, snow
-nothing special, that's the minimum

- dew
- when after a cold night battle it's getting dawn (assuming that this dawn-option will be in)

- hoar frost
- similiar to the dew, but it happens in the north, where the temperature is below 0

- sleet
- hasn't got great consequences, it would be rather just a spectacle

- drizzle
- like the previous, sight-effect, can be a rain or a snow drizzle

- storm
- average storm
- snow storm
- sand storm
- common feature, that the warriors are sooner exhausted, archers are almost unusable and local units get some bonus in this situations (bedouins, vikings, etc.)

- hail
- in big storms it would be a wonderful sight, when the smaller-bigger ice particles patter on the helmets and armour :yes:

- wind
- not a great innovation, we've seen it with our fearsome worms in the Worms ~:) In a corner of the screen would be a wind-directionandpower-indicator, and if the archer shoots in the face of the wind, his achievements will be quite miserable

- lightning
- storms consist of lightnings as well generally. As an effect the animals (horses, elephants) would be frightened of it.

- mist&fog
- fog has also a fundamental role among the natural effects, it decreases the lengths of vison (archers), but increases the sight and the output of our pc by the way

To my mind these point wouldn't be so hard to carry through, and I'm curious what do you think about it. :bow:

I agree completely. RTW did a pretty poor job in the weather aspect of the tactical battles.
I would also like to see sandstorms if you're fighting in the East.

Very good. I love this idea!

Moisture should affect things like bows, firearms etcetera. It should also slow the movement of troops in low lying areas. Ideally, very heavy rains should flood rivers and make fords impassable, while very cold winters should freeze them and allow easy crossing.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

Moisture should affect things like bows, firearms etcetera. It should also make ground more difficult to pass. Ideally, very heavy rains should flood rivers and make fords impassable, while very cold winters should freeze them and allow easy crossing.

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Yes, good points FM.

I think also heavy rains should cause mud which would quickly fatigue troops. Snow should have a similar effect on fatigue, but not as bad as for mud.

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Originally Posted by Ultras DVSC

- wind
- not a great innovation, we've seen it with our fearsome worms in the Worms ~:) In a corner of the screen would be a wind-directionandpower-indicator, and if the archer shoots in the face of the wind, his achievements will be quite miserable

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This idea has some merit but surely a trained archer would know how to compensate for wind?

You could have slightly greater inaccuracy for a crosswind I guess, and reduced range for shooting upwind, as well as longer range for downwind. Now that I think of it, that could give a downwind position quite an advantage and vice versa for upwind.

I wouldnt want too much weather effects on the battlefield. I was rather happy with RTW in this respect. In shogun weather was too devastating. especially the blizzards. You had to run all over the map just to find the enemy~:handball:

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Originally Posted by Gustav II Adolf

I wouldnt want too much weather effects on the battlefield. I was rather happy with RTW in this respect. In shogun weather was too devastating. especially the blizzards. You had to run all over the map just to find the enemy~:handball:

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Such was warfare

........Orda

Really like all these weather ideas. Hope they get implemented. ~:thumb:

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

Such was warfare

........Orda

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I agree. Strong weather has played its part in history. For me though i rather keep playability high by being less constrained by the weather and more by the enemy and the terrain.

Wouldnt mind the visual effects though.

I'm glad to see your positive feedbacks! :bow: I wouldn't mind if also on the ca headquarters welcomed the guys these great wisdoms, but I've strong doubt whatever, whether they get them at all...

How much effect did weather have in historical battles? Honest question. I can definately see severe weather having an effect on the strategic map, causing reduced income, death of units, increased movement costs, etc., but it seems to me that neither side would fight in that sort of weather. Since turns last for 2 years (supposedly) then why would either side fight when they can avoid combat until a time when the weather is more advantagous.

Moderate weather (rain, snow/cold, desert heat) I can see being in the game as one side or the other would see an advantage in it and so attempt to force a battle. Archers useless due to rain, troops morale low due to cold (or high because they believe the enemy is miserable in the cold), and troops miserable in the heat.

I admit that most of the weather effects mentioned are moderate to minimal (at least in my opinion) and so I could see them happening, but I can remember a MTW battle where the entire battle was a snow storm. Literally couldn't see enemy units till you were a meter from them. While it was a fun battle, I remember wondering why would any army be out fighting in that weather.

Anyway, I do agree with the idea presented, just wondering what levels of weather have historically been fought in and at what point do the combatants decide its better to just go home?

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Originally Posted by magnum

... but I can remember a MTW battle where the entire battle was a snow storm. Literally couldn't see enemy units till you were a meter from them. While it was a fun battle, I remember wondering why would any army be out fighting in that weather.

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The battle of Eylau in the Napoleonic Wars was fought in such conditions. IIRC, the French were in pursuit and the Russians turned to fight. The battle of the Bulge is another, I guess. Sometimes the underdog might choose to start a fight in adverse weather conditions, hoping to suprise their enemy.

Actually I think the Swedes got a bad taste of a blizzard at Poltava, or some other battle at the time. In any case lousy weather did determine a fair number of battles, though some of them didn't happen during the bad weather itself (Agincourt for instance).

I loved STW in this regard. Sure it was a pain to find the enemy. But if his forces were fairly good it could easily become some of the best battles in TW history.

I remember a particular battle, in Shinano I think, where I attacked (so I started in the deep valley). Usually the AI set up on the far ridge so I sent my No-Dachi and Yari Cav to take the high ground to my right. Well this was during a thunderstorm so I was basically blind.
Normally I would have noticed enemies when their archers began inflicting casualties in fog and similar. This time I suffered none, so I was safe.

My troops neared the crest and I turned to order my other troops around, including sending up my archers to that position. Then I moved back to my now fairly tired troops to begin new maneuvers, but I seemed to notice something moving... FLASH! Lightening, and in new light I made out no less than three units of Monks charging out of the little wood up there. I nearly fell from my chair of both shock and the coolnessfactor. My own four units were duly ripped to pieces and I lost the battle horribly as my other forces seemed to stumble into enemies everywhere. I was crushed and actually I lost the campaign due to that battle, but I loved every second of it.

Other times I got flanked by cavalry or simply had a chance encounter in the middle of the map... Those were superb times.
But at the same time they were quite seldom. It wasn't likely to get mroe than a few blizzard/storm battles each campaign, so it wasn't likely to dominate the game. I liked that and I want a return of it.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

My troops neared the crest and I turned to order my other troops around, including sending up my archers to that position. Then I moved back to my now fairly tired troops to begin new maneuvers, but I seemed to notice something moving... FLASH! Lightning, and in new light I made out no less than three units of Monks charging out of the little wood up there. I nearly fell from my chair of both shock and the coolnessfactor. My own four units were duly ripped to pieces and I lost the battle horribly as my other forces seemed to stumble into enemies everywhere. I was crushed and actually I lost the campaign due to that battle, but I loved every second of it.

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Yeah, those monk ambushes were pretty wicked, weren't they!

I remember there was one province, Echigu or something, that was always rebel held, always held with promoted monks, and always defended with a monk ambush.

Even knowing the ambush was coming, and from where, it could be really, really hard to resist it. Which is why it was often one of the last provinces to fall.

The other province that could be very tough was the one on the south island. From memory I think the elite troops in that one were No-Dachi, and sword saints in the XP.

BTW, monks were my all-time favourite TW series unit. But I liked all the troop types in Shogun. They had very much their own battlefield personalities, and they were very well balanced against one another.

Echigo was the 'home' of the Uesugi (though it seems that in STW it was placed in Mutsu). You are thinking of Kaga.

Hmmm, not sure about that, I was pretty sure it was a province that started with "E" - Ego or something.

It was a province just a ways to the northeast of the Emperor's province, on the coast. Actually there were a few rebel provinces in that region, and if left to themselves, they could build some pretty scary armies. It was always hard to keep control of them too because of the number of troops needed to pacify them.

No it was Kaga, the home of the Ikko-Ikki. Kaga had a rebel force of Monks and Ashi (and a Temple to recruit more as time went). The province you might be mistaking it with could be Echizen, which is next to Echigo and Kaga.

In STW, the weather was a strategic consideration of when to attack because the turns were seasonal. Once the game moved away from seasonal turns, the weather became a random effect.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

No it was Kaga, the home of the Ikko-Ikki. Kaga had a rebel force of Monks and Ashi (and a Temple to recruit more as time went). The province you might be mistaking it with could be Echizen, which is next to Echigo and Kaga.

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You're right, it was Kaga ~:) I just fired up MI to take a look.

I remember it being an "E" province because it is adjacent to Echizen and Etchu, which both often fall to the Kagan rebels. Echigo is a little further to the east.

The south island province that could also be really hard to take was Tosa.

What would also be good is if the dust raised by a moving army, and the smoke from gunpowder, had an effect on fatigue, and could be blown about by the wind.

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Actually I think the Swedes got a bad taste of a blizzard at Poltava, or some other battle at the time.

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Poltava was not fought in winter so not that battle at least, unless u mean a blizzard of cannonballs.

The winter leading up to poltava depleted the army severly though but thats another thing.

The MIST of Lützen, ad 1632, ment Gustavus Adolphus charged into the teeth of enemy and died. Thats weather playing its trick with Sweden.

Cold winter and blizzard served Sweden well on at least 2 occations.

1) When the danish waters froze so Charles X could lead his army over the ice against Copenhagen forcing the hardest peace ever on the Danes in the everlasting rivarly between the countries.

2) The blizzard at Narva ad 1700, roaring into the eyes of the 40000 strong fortified russian line enabling the 8000-10000 Swedes to rout them - the greatest tactical victory ever for Sweden, (not only thanks to weather though).

Kalle

Along with rain and snow, I would very much like to see mist and wind effects implemented. MTW battles in a good storm were always a lot of fun, though rare. It was great guessing where the enemy might be. I've heard of the fabled mists of Shogun and would love to experience a reincarnation of them. I especially like the idea of a crosswind reducing accuracy and whatever the opposite of a crosswind is (straight wind? in-line wind?) increasing or decreasing archers' range. I really liked the tactical considerations of rain and wind in MTW and wished they had a little more effect or lasted a little longer.

Ajax

I still have fond reminescences of S:TW weather: searching for an hidden enemy in dense fog, or hiding in a forrest while in the distance enemy units are scouting. I hope MII:TW will have these weather effects again.

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Along with rain and snow, I would very much like to see mist and wind effects implemented. MTW battles in a good storm were always a lot of fun, though rare. It was great guessing where the enemy might be. I've heard of the fabled mists of Shogun and would love to experience a reincarnation of them. I especially like the idea of a crosswind reducing accuracy and whatever the opposite of a crosswind is (straight wind? in-line wind?) increasing or decreasing archers' range. I really liked the tactical considerations of rain and wind in MTW and wished they had a little more effect or lasted a little longer.

Ajax

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A worthy idea, since it is a consideration on actual battlefields. The trouble is in representing such factors. How can you display wind direction and speed, for example, in such a way that the player can sense it - and take action to counter/accomodate/exploit it? Curvy lines drawn in the 'air'? Maybe, but adds to the cartoonish-ness that some deplore. A weather vane in a corner of the screen? OK, but adds clutter to the display, and reduces the 'immersion' factor that most players crave.

Wind-bent trees?

I, too remember with fondness poking around STW maps in the fog, or thunderstorms. I usually resorted to a "line" formation to move around enmasse, just so I wouldn't lose a unit of my own.

I understood, with regret, why that went away when the move was made to yearly vs seasonal turns.

Nevertheless, I'll join this chorus: Mo' weather = Mo' bettah! :)

I seem to remember that in both STW and MTW strong winds were noticed by little stuff blowing by and a whisteling sound, you know the sound of winds.
It was very much noticeable.

Besides you got informed of the weather prior to the battle (though in MTW it changed almost at once).

I think the snow storm effect of STW has never been matched since nor that horrible heavy rain. Weather effects since STW have been quite poor by comparison

.......Orda

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

I think the snow storm effect of STW has never been matched since nor that horrible heavy rain.

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Yeah, I seem to remember a feeling of mud whenever the heavy rains appeared.

The weather limiting the sighting distance can be one of the great "surprise" factors. At the Battle of Cynoscephalae, the Romans and Antigonids blundered into each other due to terrain and weather hiding them from one another, even though they were close together.
I had a battle in the XL mod of M:TW that was a little like that, and did not discover until too late that our armies were just about on top of each other (1/2 bowshot range). Even though the ai army was almost entirely infantry, I got my butt kicked, and managed to exit the area with my army only mangled (rather than totally destroyed). I lost, but the shock factor and helter-skelter nature of the battle made it memorable.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

I still have fond reminescences of S:TW weather: searching for an hidden enemy in dense fog, or hiding in a forrest while in the distance enemy units are scouting. I hope MII:TW will have these weather effects again.

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Hehe, yeah that was really fun. Hiding a lone unit in a forrest while thousands of samurai run around searching.

I really enjoyed the fog battles, especially when attacking in STW. Every so often i would just stumble upon the enemy, be completely unprepared, and get my arse handed to me. How often do you see that in RTW?

Dont think i ever have.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

I remember a particular battle, in Shinano I think...I moved back to my now fairly tired troops to begin new maneuvers, but I seemed to notice something moving... FLASH! Lightening, and in new light I made out no less than three units of Monks charging out of the little wood up there. I nearly fell from my chair of both shock and the coolnessfactor. My own four units were duly ripped to pieces and I lost the battle horribly as my other forces seemed to stumble into enemies everywhere. I was crushed and actually I lost the campaign due to that battle, but I loved every second of it.

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LOL, yeah it's funny how some battles stick in your mind.

The STW battle I've never forgotten is the one where I had an elite army of monks and no-dachi backed up by yari samurai, arrayed against an enemy made up almost entirely of archers which was defending on a hill. I marched my army up to just outside archery range, then charged them all straight at the enemy position and gleefully sat back to watch the anticipated slaughter.

Imagine my shock and horror when just a few seconds later my painstakingly built up elite army came charging back in my direction in a total, unstoppable rout with almost no soldiers left!

Afterwards I checked the stats of the enemy archers and found most of them had level two and three weapon upgrades and/or moral bonuses. After that crushing insta-defeat, I never treated archers with contempt again!

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Other times I got flanked by cavalry or simply had a chance encounter in the middle of the map... Those were superb times.

But at the same time they were quite seldom. It wasn't likely to get more than a few blizzard/storm battles each campaign, so it wasn't likely to dominate the game. I liked that and I want a return of it.

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One of the tricks I eventually learned in STW was to play the weather against the enemy. So if they had lots of archers, I'd wait for really bad weather before attacking, rendering their archers useless. It's not only a good tactic, but it also means you get to see quite a few more bad weather battles with those spectacular thunder and lightning effects than you otherwise would.

Personally, I think weather effects added a whole extra dimension to the battles and I want to see them back and as tactically important as ever, if not more so, in any new TW game.