Walking on eggshells: Gender reassignment surgery

Okay. I am going to do this the politically correct way and avoid being banned again. It is an honest poll question and I will ask it without being offensive.

If a male has his genitals surgically cut off, does that make him a female in your eyes?

I am curious if you would see him as a male with new "gear", or as a female. I think this is an hinest question and I just want to get a grip on the general feelings out there.

If you would consider a male with an artifically placed vagina a female, then it would be logical to presume that you would view him as a sexual object similar to a natural female...

Solypsist, I know you closed this twice, but you warned me on language, not on topic. Let me know if you have trouble with this topic and let's come to a compromise.

Very limited poll options that shows your narrow-mindedness very well.

How about a man looking like a woman? You just had to add disfigured. If you only want to hear your own opinion why ask for others?

And where did I wrote I was talking about a man in woman clothes?

... still a man... thing...who cares anyway? or has the notion of "my body my temple" been lost on us all? bloody right wing conservativism is somehow reversing itself into a communist mind setting where everyone better well think the same damn thoughts...

the poll options maybe be stilted, but the bigger issue is with the question itself. i'm certainly no expert, but "gender reassignment" is hardly limited to removing the genitals, is it? i would think that the hormone therapy is at least as important. (i am assuming that you are talking about trans-gender people, and not simply asking about men who have lost their genitals... ala a eunuch or something)

it's an interesting question when one considers technology. i imagine at some point in the future we will be able to make trans-sexual or trans-gender (whatever the appropriate term may be) individuals to be more similar to the natural gender they are trying to emulate.

let's imagine, for example, that at some point we are able to create a fully functioning vagina, uterus and pair of ovaries in a person who was a biologically normal male (imo, this is certainly a possibility with biotechnology progressing as it is). does this person become a female now? if not, what's preventing them from becoming so, their history as a man?

what if this were done before that person reached puberty? what about as a newborn? what about as a fetus, in-utero? when exactly does the sex of a person becoming irrevocable?

from what tiny little i know about the current state of the procedures involved, i would tend to vote for the first option in this poll. but i imagine a distinction will become increasing less clear as the procedures evolve and improve.

I'm pretty sure male genitals getting cut off is normally called "neutering" or somehting to that effect, and the end product tends to go by the name "eunuch". Who, so far as I know, are not exactly considered women, but males no longer able to fuilfill their reproductive function.

Well, that's what the poll question is. Taken at face value, the answer to that is without doubt that such people would still be considered "male".

Actual gender modification is AFAIK rather more complicated both as a medical operation and as a question. And you know, I kind of dislike muddily worded and ill-defined questions particularly over complex issues...

A man who is surgically altered to appear feminine is still a man because what defines the sexes is our reproductive roles. A woman has a womb, end of, as far as I'm concerned.

Watchman has the right of it. This poll may not be locked but it is a bald attempt to reinforce the pollster's own beliefs. I voted for the first option because it is the only possible correct answer, though not for the reasons DA wanted.

If you have a 'Y' chromozome you're a guy, period. There are certain, rare, genetic "unfortunates" out there and they may be the exception. It's REAL simple: XX=female, XY=male.

Its still a man, a very disturbed and sick man that should be put somewhere so they have no influence on society. I believe California should have a wall put around it and the seaside mined and put all the perverted and their supporters there so they can live in Brokeback Utopia, fornicating each other, animals, dead bodies, whatever gives the "progressive" mindset its jollies these days. Let filth wallow with filth.:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

If you have a 'Y' chromozome you're a guy, period. There are certain, rare, genetic "unfortunates" out there and they may be the exception. It's REAL simple: XX=female, XY=male.

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Don't forget, you can be really unlucky and wind up with an XYY combination. Article:

XYY syndrome is a rare chromosomal disorder that affects males. It is caused by the presence of an extra Y chromosome. Males normally have one X and one Y chromosome. However, individuals with this syndrome have one X and two Y chromosome. Affected individuals are usually very tall and thin. Many experience severe acne during adolescence. Additional symptoms may include antisocial or behavioral problems and learning disabilities. Intelligence is usually normal, although IQ, on average, is 10 to 15 points lower than siblings.

Eh, your body, your choice. What else can I say.

last time i checked, gender was decided by either XY or YY chromosomes.

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Originally Posted by solypsist

last time i checked, gender was decided by either XY or YY chromosomes.

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Corrected: XY or XX. YY chromosomal fetuses do happen, but they cannot come to term. The X chromosome contains a lot of info necessary for the human body that has nothing to do with gender.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Corrected: XY or XX. YY chromosomal fetuses do happen, but they cannot come to term. The X chromosome contains a lot of info necessary for the human body that has nothing to do with gender.

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What is a YY foetus called? lol a superman?

cut me some slack; i'm hung over.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Corrected: XY or XX. YY chromosomal fetuses do happen, but they cannot come to term. The X chromosome contains a lot of info necessary for the human body that has nothing to do with gender.

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Oh you could be hung over -- or maybe you're a disfigured male! I know I am. Not sure how, exactly, but I'm feeling very disfigured today.

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Originally Posted by solypsist

last time i checked, gender was decided by either XY or YY chromosomes.

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Sex is determined by chromosomes; gender is decided by society.

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gender is decided by society

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Care to explain? Sounds a bit odd to me.

As for the poll: a mutilated male.

Crazed Rabbit

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Care to explain?

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Well, I imagine that it is the idea that gender is how member of the sexes act and operate in society, not just what is between their legs. Like different gender roles in different societies.


On topic, I suppose it has to be a xase by case basis. If it's just genital mutilation/sex chage surgery no. Course, if it comes with hormonal treatements, then its closer to being a women. And if we want to go purely by actions deciding gender, then you don't even need the knife for that. And in the case that was on this board earlier, no way. I voted diconfigured male btw, although I suppose the pole is pretty bad.

Who cares anyway? If they're not harming anybody, I couldn't care less. We don't make a special point of trying to classify boys born with very small penises or women born with both. Of course, we could just toss those terribly disfigured infants into California, or the nearest river if California is too far away.

It is really entirely irrelevant what any of us thinks what sex such a person has.

If ever a poll needed a Gah! option ...

No, he's still still Male, and will be always be a male.

Just to expand on the theme -- if I were playing a lot of online RPGs, and I decided that I was really an elf in a man's body, would the membership of the Org send me donations so that I could get elf surgery?

Once I have been altered to resemble an elf, two more questions: Am I really an elf, or just a freaky person? Should I be allowed to teach children in my new elf persona?

Me after my elfectomy:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v.../untitled3.jpg

Sure, they'd love it. More clothes may be necessary though. Is your elf persona also gender confused? It certainly looks ambiguous enough to confuse all the other elves.

As first brought up by Vladimir, if he had his Y chromosome surgically removed I might grant womanhood. Till then it's just wishful thinking.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Sure, they'd love it. More clothes may be necessary though. Is your elf persona also gender confused? It certainly looks ambiguous enough to confuse all the other elves.

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hey man, there's nothing ambiguous about that elf-rack! hey-oh!

:medievalcheers:

I would like everyone, including Big John, to be respectful of my needs, and not use derogatory terms such as "elf rack." There are proper elvish words for such things. I also expect the Org patrons to refrain from phrases such as "Legolas ta-tas," "mithril chest thumpers," "elf knockers," "keebler muffins" or "elvish bikini stuffing." All of these terms are offensive. Especially for a person who's planning on an elfectomy.

I appreciate your tolerance and understanding. You don't have to appreciate my desire to become an elf, but I ask that you treat it with an open mind.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I would like everyone, including Big John, to be respectful of my needs, and not use derogatory terms such as "elf rack." There are proper elvish words for such things. I also expect the Org patrons to refrain from phrases such as "Legolas ta-tas," "mithril chest thumpers," "elf knockers," "keebler muffins" or "elvish bikini stuffing." All of these terms are offensive. Especially for a person who's planning on an elfectomy.

I appreciate your tolerance and understanding. You don't have to appreciate my desire to become an elf, but I ask that you treat it with an open mind.

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"keebler muffins"..... :laugh4:

No Gah! option therefore not a legit pole er poll.

As far as gender reassignment is concerned can the person now play sports for a female team?

Awesome post, Lemur. I never knew. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I would like everyone, including Big John, to be respectful of my needs, and not use derogatory terms such as "elf rack." There are proper elvish words for such things. I also expect the Org patrons to refrain from phrases such as "Legolas ta-tas," "mithril chest thumpers," "elf knockers," "keebler muffins" or "elvish bikini stuffing." All of these terms are offensive. Especially for a person who's planning on an elfectomy.

I appreciate your tolerance and understanding. You don't have to appreciate my desire to become an elf, but I ask that you treat it with an open mind.

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I liked you better as a Lemur...:disappointed:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I would like everyone, including Big John, to be respectful of my needs, and not use derogatory terms such as "elf rack." There are proper elvish words for such things. I also expect the Org patrons to refrain from phrases such as "Legolas ta-tas," "mithril chest thumpers," "elf knockers," "keebler muffins" or "elvish bikini stuffing." All of these terms are offensive. Especially for a person who's planning on an elfectomy.

I appreciate your tolerance and understanding. You don't have to appreciate my desire to become an elf, but I ask that you treat it with an open mind.

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Are elf boobies more pointed, you know, like how their ears are?

Well, a couple of points here: I purposely left out a Gah option. Why? It is too tempting on a topic like this. Posters may feel one way or the other, but lean more towards Gah. Thus my intent was for Orgahs to either take a stand on the issue or protest their lack of interest by simply avoiding the poll altogether. Further, I also left the poll anonymous so that I could gauge opinions of those here who do have an opinion on the matter. Some may be tempted to vote for option b or gah simply out of spite.

I understand how the poll could be viewed as "reinforcing" to ones own conclusion, especially if one were proudly socially progressive. The wording to a socially liberal Orgah would absolutley appear to be negatively inclined against men who replace their genitals with an artificial vagina. The wording used in this poll was factually based. Removing one's genitals is exactly that. Artifical construction of a vagina is exactly that. I don't see how else it could be factually explained, what "art"?

Unfortunately, there are limits to the text that can be included within a poll answer. If the opening post had been read, my intent is clear. It states, replacement with an artifical vagina. I would hope that posters would assume that this almost meant the artificially injected hormone regiment that male would have to undertaken for the remainder of his life in order to facilitate breast development and development of other female attributes. If this was not clear then, well than that is my fault and I hope this post clarifies the question.

So, the poll question was asked given the factual reference point of a male having his genitals surgucally cut off and replaced by an artifically constructed vagina. As for the point of "mutilation", I know not how else to put it. I also consider tatoos and body jewelery to be mutilation. This does not mean I find it morally wrong, it is just a descriptive word.


Now, regarding the discussion, I think the individual is still a male. The comments regarding chromosomes pretty much sum it up. Big John suggests that technology in realtion to time is a factor for discussion. I would say that certainly- technology currently enables us to choose sex in "test tube" conception. But this is an analysis and selection of chromosomes, not a surgically alteration coupled with life-long hormone therapy. I think that is an important distinction.


Would anyone here find a reassigned male as sexually appealing as a natural female?

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Would anyone here find a reassigned male as sexually appealing as a natural female?

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Just hoping medical science will never get as far that I can't tell what's what. Awwwwww the whole idea just disgusts me on so many levels, a friend of mine was seducted by a .... whatever, he took it rather mildly, I wouldn't have been able to restraint myselve. Imagine yourselve thinking you have scored a nice girl on the go, and suddenly there's a dick where you expected female goodness, it's not only perverse but also cruel, bleeeeeh :sweatdrop:

I thought that everybody agreed that tranny-grannies were, infallibly, the model of everyone's desire, both male and female, whatever those mean anyway.

Perhaps gender is not broken into only two categories, or cannot be w/o calling some people inhuman which I would never accept.

This may seem a bit stupid to point out to yall but here goes. If you didnt know that a person had the opperation would you be able to tell that they were'nt the same sex as they used to be? I mean there are plenty of women who sound more masculent and look worse then alot of them. For a good example, if any of you watched the 2004 olympic womens shot putting, the person who won I almost confused with Arnold Schwarzenager. Heck I almost thought I was watching the mens shot putting till one of the announcer mentioned it was the womens. So should you also be asking for gods vengeance against those masculent women also, and for those hermaphrodites should they be used as torches for your barbecue?

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So, the poll question was asked given the factual reference point of a male having his genitals surgucally cut off and replaced by an artifically constructed vagina. As for the point of "mutilation", I know not how else to put it. I also consider tatoos and body jewelery to be mutilation. This does not mean I find it morally wrong, it is just a descriptive word.

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Would you call all forms of surgery mutilation? In some cases of breast cancer, it is necessary to take the breast off.

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Would anyone here find a reassigned male as sexually appealing as a natural female?

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Depends how she looks. It's not always so, but some male-to-female transsexuals cannot identified as such without a medical investigation. A man could have a relationship with a woman without noticing that she was once a man.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

This may seem a bit stupid to point out to yall but here goes. If you didnt know that a person had the opperation would you be able to tell that they were'nt the same sex as they used to be? I mean there are plenty of women who sound more masculent and look worse then alot of them. For a good example, if any of you watched the 2004 olympic womens shot putting, the person who won I almost confused with Arnold Schwarzenager. Heck I almost thought I was watching the mens shot putting till one of the announcer mentioned it was the womens. So should you also be asking for gods vengeance against those masculent women also, and for those hermaphrodites should they be used as torches for your barbecue?

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Haven't you been reading this thread? The only difference between men and women is in the chromosomes. Those shotputters are just as feminine as any other woman, since they have the xx chromosome :dizzy2:

In fact I'm amazed people were able to tell men and women apart before we knew about genetics :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Would you call all forms of surgery mutilation? In some cases of breast cancer, it is necessary to take the breast off.

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You equating surgery for breast cancer with someone voluntarily having their penis cut off? You're in the medical field, is that correct Saturnus?:help:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

In fact I'm amazed people were able to tell men and women apart before we knew about genetics :juggle2:

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Shall I quote a line from Kindergarten Cop? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Shall I quote a line from Kindergarten Cop? :laugh4:

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it's not a tooomah!

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Would anyone here find a reassigned male as sexually appealing as a natural female?

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The relevance eludes me.

Anyway, IMHO chromosomes can go and stuff it. If someone feels he's born into the wrong sex and goes to considerable pains to rectify the issue, I don't see what right some pesky details of genetics have to keep him (now properly her; damn these gender-specifying languages anyway) stuck in her old classification in most circumstances. I presume there are some where her old sex might be an issue, but that's what medical records are for.

Or, put this way, "why let the genes decide?"

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Originally Posted by Watchman

The relevance eludes me.

Anyway, IMHO chromosomes can go and stuff it. If someone feels he's born into the wrong sex and goes to considerable pains to rectify the issue, I don't see what right some pesky details of genetics have to keep him (now properly her; damn these gender-specifying languages anyway) stuck in her old classification in most circumstances. I presume there are some where her old sex might be an issue, but that's what medical records are for.

Or, put this way, "why let the genes decide?"

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Why do you hate God, Watchman?

"But he's a Jew, they killed Jesus!"
"Didn't know the man."
- some old movie

I know not of this person "God" you speak of. How could I then hate him or her ?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Its still a man, a very disturbed and sick man that should be put somewhere so they have no influence on society. I believe California should have a wall put around it and the seaside mined and put all the perverted and their supporters there so they can live in Brokeback Utopia, fornicating each other, animals, dead bodies, whatever gives the "progressive" mindset its jollies these days. Let filth wallow with filth.:idea2:

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My man, you have some serious issues.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Would you call all forms of surgery mutilation? In some cases of breast cancer, it is necessary to take the breast off.

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Yes. Removing a breat is mutilation. Having an arm amputated due to an injury is also mutilation. Getting burned in a car accident is mutilation. Having open heart surgery is mutilation to your chest. Breast implants are mutilation. It is a descriptive word only. There is no emotional or societal connotation attached.

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Depends how she looks. It's not always so, but some male-to-female transsexuals cannot identified as such without a medical investigation. A man could have a relationship with a woman without noticing that she was once a man.

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The moment that you enage in intercourse with the former male, you will know instantaneously. Providing, of course, that you have at least been with one female in your life prior to. Artifical female genitalia cannot replicate the feel, look, lubrication, etc of a natural emale reproductive system.

And on that note I am quiet disgusted with the turn this topic has taken. Gah.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

The moment that you enage in intercourse with the former male, you will know instantaneously. Providing, of course, that you have at least been with one female in your life prior to. Artifical female genitalia cannot replicate the feel, look, lubrication, etc of a natural emale reproductive system.

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Speaking from experience I presume...? :wink3:

The relevance greatly eludes me.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Speaking from experience I presume...? :wink3:

The relevance greatly eludes me.

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I am so totally disgusted with this entire topic. I've had enough.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I am so totally disgusted with this entire topic. I've had enough.

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Hey, you started it. Especially the sexual intercourse side of it. :weirdthread:

http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/edoom/throwup.gif

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Speaking from experience I presume...? :wink3:

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Shaaa Bam!

This thread has descended to a level of complete and total absurdity. Well done! I applaud everyone who has contributed! And yes, the "from experience?" line was priceless. Beautiful, just beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

My man, you have some serious issues.

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Not nearly as many issues as someone that would cut his penis off and call himself a women. And not nearly as many issues as someone would support this silly idea and call it a cure or normal either.

I fail to perceive where it rubs your butt any, though. What people do with their bodies ought to be their business.

Out of curiosity why'd you keep pushing for this topic? If the idea of it disgusts you why are you so curious what others think? Are you or someone you know considering this type of surgury?

Frankly I don't like it. Had my hair cut by what I thought was a hot filipina only to have a friend of her/him tell me it was/is a guy once. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I fail to perceive where it rubs your butt any, though. What people do with their bodies ought to be their business.

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Because i don't want to explain to my child why some pervert did what it did until he's a bit older than grade school because some teacher looks like Mrs Doubtfire on roids. That's why. Is that so bad? I'm sure I'm just evil for calling a mentally ill freak a perv but that just what it is. Sorry I don't pass your judgements of progressive ideals.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Because i don't want to explain to my child why some pervert did what it did until he's a bit older than grade school because some teacher looks like Mrs Doubtfire on roids. That's why. Is that so bad? I'm sure I'm just evil for calling a mentally ill freak a perv but that just what it is. Sorry I don't pass your judgements of progressive ideals.

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What is evil is the fact that you refer to a human being as "it."

No matter what they have done to themselves surgically, how they choose to dress, what beliefs they hold, humans are always humans.

Your attempt to dehumanize a person because he tried to surgically change himself in order to be happy is disgusting.

Having said that, I sympathize with your concern about having to explain about others' lifestyle choices to your child.

I have no idea how I'll explain to my son why people would hate a person just because that person wanted to be a girl instead of a boy. I guess I'll just tell him that some people are small-minded idiots who hate anybody who is different from their own very narrow views of how people should be, and that he should probably just ignore them and let them wallow in their own filthy ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I have no idea how I'll explain to my son why people would hate a person just because that person wanted to be a girl instead of a boy. I guess I'll just tell him that some people are small-minded idiots who hate anybody who is different from their own very narrow views of how people should be, and that he should probably just ignore them and let them wallow in their own filthy ignorance.

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Good for you. Being called an idiot by someone with your idea of normal assures me that I'm right. Maybe you should show your son some gay porn so he'll be ahead of the curve before some transgendered pervert shows him what tolerance is really about.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Speaking from experience I presume...? :wink3:

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What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. ~D

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Good for you. Being called an idiot by someone with your idea of normal assures me that I'm right. Maybe you should show your son some gay porn so he'll be ahead of the curve before some transgendered pervert shows him what tolerance is really about.

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I didn't call you an idiot Dave. I simply said that anybody who would hate a person because of their sexuality is an idiot. You're the one who decided that particular shoe fit you.

And thank you for your helpful suggestion that I expose my two year-old to some pornography. I don't think I'll take your advice, but I appreciate the sentiment. Since we are giving each other advice on parenting, please allow me to suggest that you get your children out to a Klan meeting or two. That way they can really get a head start on learning how to hate people for no good reason. After all, we wouldn't want them to disappoint dear old dad, now, would we?

:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Goofball

And thank you for your helpful suggestion that I expose my two year-old to some pornography. I don't think I'll take your advice, but I appreciate the sentiment. Since we are giving each other advice on parenting, please allow me to suggest that you get your children out to a Klan meeting or two. That way they can really get a head start on learning how to hate people for no good reason. After all, we wouldn't want them to disappoint dear old dad, now, would we?

:idea2:

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I'll allow you to have the last word, enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

You equating surgery for breast cancer with someone voluntarily having their penis cut off? You're in the medical field, is that correct Saturnus?:help:

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I'd rather say that I'm in the field of empirical science. That's about not judging in the state of ignorance.

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Originally Posted by spmetla

Frankly I don't like it. Had my hair cut by what I thought was a hot filipina only to have a friend of her/him tell me it was/is a guy once.

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You had your hair cut?! That's mutilation! ~:eek: ~;)

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Originally Posted by Goofball

What is evil is the fact that you refer to a human being as "it."

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Are humans animals? yes.

If you neuter an animal you refer to the animal as an it.

The guy was definitly neutered therefore he is now an it. An it attempting to camoflage itself as a female.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. ~D

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And I'm in Vegas! :shame:

(One has to be careful in the Strip...especially with strippers, you never know...)

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Are humans animals? yes.

If you neuter an animal you refer to the animal as an it.

The guy was definitly neutered therefore he is now an it. An it attempting to camoflage itself as a female.

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It's the intent, not the letters, that define the word.

*quickly gets out of the thread*

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Are humans animals? yes.

If you neuter an animal you refer to the animal as an it.

The guy was definitly neutered therefore he is now an it. An it attempting to camoflage itself as a female.

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Referring to someone as an animal is dehumanizing them, even though humans technically are animals.

Let's try for a little more subtlety on this issue. Nobody raelly disagrees that a creature carrying the XY chromosomal pair is male, no matter the physical appearance. So let's stop shooting at pen-raised quail from the SUV, shall we?

Sexual identity is different animal. It's well-understood that the laws of sexual attraction are chemical. You don't decide to be attracted to girls one day -- it's just that way. As for what chemicals and hormones create a sexual identity, we're a long way from understanding it, since such research would require destructive testing on a living test subject. As we're not living on Doctor Moreau's Island, such reasearch cannot take place.

From wikipedia:

The causes of transgenderism are less clear; it has been subject of much speculation, but no psychological theory has ever been proven to apply to even a significant minority of transgender individuals, and theories that assume a sex difference in the brain are relatively new and difficult to prove, because at the moment they require a destructive analysis of inner brain structures, which are quite small.

There are plenty of good articles where that came from. Try reading at least one before condemning all perverts to a camp. Advances in neurochemistry will probably make this disorder understandable, and someday curable. More:

Interesting evidence also comes from numerous animal studies demonstrating that exposure to cross-sex hormones during development can reliably produce cross-sex behaviors in animals. In addition twin studies have demonstrated a strong heritability for transsexuality. (Concordance for Gender Identity Among Monozygotic and Dizygotic Twin Pairs. Diamond, M and Hawk, S. American Psychological Association 2004 Annual Meeting. July 28 - August 1, 2004, Honolulu, Hawaii.) This research provides more suggestive evidence that transsexuality may be determined in part by genetics and in utero hormonal environment.

A recent study in Germany provides even more evidence for a physical basis for transsexualism. The study found a correlation between digit ratio and male to female transsexualism. Male to female transsexuals were found to have a higher digit ratio than control males, but one that was comparable to control females. Because digit ratio is directly related to prenatal hormone exposure, this tends to support theories linking such to male to female transsexualism. (Schneider, Pickel & Stalla 2005)

And may I remind you that on the day I am converted into a smokin' hot elf babe, I will expect to teach little children for the rest of my life.

Wikipedia? Wikipedia is fine for SOME references, but when it comes to social issues- forget. Instantly ignored.

Yes. I was zinged. Nicely done.

I agree with Dave. The problem is not a man camoflauging (nicely put Pape) himself as female.

The problem is forcing this upon our children. But that really isn't the topic of this thread. Dave has a thread for that. This thread just asks whether sexually reassigned men are male or female.

I say mutilated male. Or a male in disguisey. Turtle! Turtle!


Here is a similar question. If I surgically alter myslef to resemble a cat, am I now a cat?

https://img361.imageshack.us/img361/...anthumb6yp.jpg
https://img361.imageshack.us/img361/...ride5px.th.jpg

https://img361.imageshack.us/img361/...kingcat5es.jpg

Meow!

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Wikipedia? Wikipedia is fine for SOME references, but when it comes to social issues- forget. Instantly ignored.

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Ooooh, an instant ignore. Never mind the citations and checkable references, just ignore. Lovely. How about a free reprint from Nature? Shall we also instantly ignore that?

Grab an eyeful, ignoremsiter:

Reprinted with permission by the authors from NATURE, 378: 68-70 (1995)
A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality

By J.-N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab

Citation: Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997) A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality. IJT 1,1, http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Acknowledgements
References

Transsexuals have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex. The possible psychogenic or biological etiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years [1,2]. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour [3,4], is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones [5,6].

Investigation of genetics, gonads, genitalia or hormone level of transsexuals has not, so far, produced any results that explain their status [1,2]. In experimental animals, however, the same gonadal hormones that prenatally determine the morphology of the genitalia also influence the morphology and function of the brain in experimental animals in a sexually dimorphic fashion [6,7]. This led to the hypothesis that sexual differentiation of the brain in transsexuals might not have followed the line of sexual differentiation of the body as a whole. In the past few years, several anatomical differences in relation to sex and sexual orientation have been observed in the human hypothalamus (see [6] for a review), but so far no neuroanatomical investigations have been made in relation to the expression of cross-gender identity (transsexuality).

Figure 1: Schematic frontal section through two subdivisions of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST) that are hatched. III: third ventricle; AC: anterior commissure; BSTc and BSTv: central and ventral subdivisions of the BST; FX: fornix; IC: internal capsule; LV: lateral ventricle; NBM: nucleus basalis of Meynert; OT: optic tract; PVN: paraventricular nucleus; SDN: sexually dimorphic nucleus; SON: supraoptic nucleus.

We have studied the hypothalamus of six male-to-female transsexuals (T1-T6); this material that was collected over the last eleven years. We searched for a brain structure that was sexually dimorphic, but not influenced by sexual orientation, as male-to-female transsexuals may be "oriented" to either sex with respect to sexual behaviour. Our earlier observations showed that the paraventricular nucleus (PVN), sexually dimorphic nucleus (SDN) and suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) did not meet these criteria ([6] and unpublished data). Although there is no accepted animal model for gender identity alterations, the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BST) turned out to be an appropriate candidate to study for the following reasons. First, it is known that the BST plays an essential part in rodent sexual behaviour [3,4]. Not only have oestrogen and androgen receptors been found in the BST [8,9], it is also a major aromatization centre in the developing rat brain [10]. The BST in the rat receives projections mainly from the amygdala and provides a strong input in the preoptic-hypothalamic region [11,12]. Reciprocal connections between hypothalamus, BST and amygdala are also well documented in experimental animals [13-15]. In addition, sex differences in the size and cell number of the BST have been described in rodents which are influenced by gonadal steroids in development [16-18]. Also in humans a particular caudal part of the BST (BNST-dspm) has been reported to be 2.5 times larger in men than in women [19].

The localization of the BST is shown in figure 1. The central part of the BST (BSTc) is characterized by its somatostatin cells and vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP) innervation [20]. We measured the volume of the BSTc on the basis of its VIP innervation (Fig. 2).

image 2image 3

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Figure 2: Representative sections of the BSTc innervated by vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP). A: heterosexual man; B: heterosexual woman; C: homosexual man; D: male-to-female transsexual. Bar=0.5 mm. LV: lateral ventricle. Note there are two parts of the BST in A and B: small sized medial subdivision (BSTm), and large oval-sized central subdivision (BSTc).

The BSTc volume in heterosexual men (2.49±0.16 mm3) was 44% larger than in heterosexual women (1.73±0.13 mm3) (P<0.005) (Fig. 3). The volume of the BSTc of heterosexual and homosexual men was found not to differ in any statistically significant way (2.81±0.20 mm3) (P=0.26). The BSTc was 62% larger in homosexual men than in heterosexual women (P<0.005). AIDS did not seem to influence the size of the BSTc: the BSTc size of two heterosexual AIDS-infected women and three heterosexual AIDS-infected men remained well within the range of the corresponding reference group (Fig. 3). The AIDS-infected heterosexuals were therefore included in the corresponding reference group for statistical purposes. A small volume of the BSTc (1.30±0.23 mm3) was found in the male-to-female transsexuals (Fig. 3). Its size was only 52% of that found in the reference males (P<0.005) and 46% of the BSTc of homosexual males (P<0.005). Although the mean BSTc volume in the transsexuals was even smaller than that in the female group, the difference did not reach statistical significance (P=0.13). The volume of the BSTc was not related to age in any of the reference groups studied (P>0.15), indicating that the observed small size of the BSTc in transsexuals was not due to the fact that they were, on average, 10 to 13 years older than the hetero- and homosexual men.

The BST plays an essential role in masculine sexual behaviour and in the regulation of gonadotrophin release, as shown by studies in the rat [3,4,21]. There has been no direct evidence that the BST has such a role in human sexual behaviour but our demonstration of a sexually dimorphic pattern in the size of the human BSTc, which is in agreement with the previously described sex difference in a more caudal part of the BST (BNST-dspm) [19], indicates that this nucleus may also be involved in human sexual or reproductive functions. It has been proposed that neurochemical sex differences in the rat BST may be due to effects of sex hormones on the brain during development and in adulthood [22,23]. Our data from humans however, indicate that BSTc volume is not affected by varying sex hormone levels in adulthood. The BSTc volume of a 46-year-old woman who had suffered for at least 1 year from a tumour of the adrenal cortex that produced very high blood levels of androstenedione and testosterone, was within the range of that of other women (Fig. 3: S1). Furthermore, two postmenopausal women (aged over 70 years) showed a completely normal female-sized BSTc (Fig. 3: M1, M2). As all the transsexuals had been treated with oestrogens, the reduced size of the BSTc could possibly have been due to the presence of high levels of oestrogen in the blood. Evidence against this comes from the fact that transsexual T2 and T3 both showed a small, female-like BSTc (Fig. 3), although T2 stopped taking oestrogen about 15 months before death, since her prolactin levels were too high and T3 stopped hormone treatment since a sarcoma was found about three months before death; also a 31-year-old man who suffered from a feminizing adrenal tumour which induced high blood levels of oestrogen, nevertheless had a very large BSTc (Fig. 3: S2).

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Figure 3: Volume of the BSTc innervated by VIP fibres in presumed heterosexual males (M), homosexual males (HM), presumed heterosexual females (F) and male-to-female transsexuals (TM). The six transsexuals are numbered T1-T6. The patients with abnormal sex hormone levels are numbered S1-S4. M1 and M2: postmenopausal women. Bars indicate mean±SEM. Open symbols: individuals who died of AIDS. METHODS. Brains of 42 subjects matched for age, postmortem time and duration of formalin fixation were investigated. The autopsy was performed following the required permission. For immunocytochemical staining of VIP, the paraffin sections were hydrated and rinsed in TBS (Tris-buffered-saline: 0.05 M tris, 0.9% NaCl, pH 7.6). The sections were incubated with 200 µl anti-VIP (Viper, 18/9/86) 1:1000 in 0.5% triton in TBS overnight at 4° C. The immunocytochemical and morphometric procedures were performed as described extensively elsewhere [25-27]. In brief, serial 6 m m sections of the BSTc were studied by means of a digitizer (Calcomp 2000) connected to a HP-UX 9.0, using a Zeiss microscope equipped with a 2.5x objective and with 10x (PLAN) oculars. Staining was performed on every 50th section with anti-VIP. The rostral and caudal borders of the BSTc were assessed by staining every 10th section in the area. The volume of the BSTc was determined by integrating all the area measurements of the BSTc sections that were innervated by VIP fibres. In a pilot study, the size of the BSTc was measured on both sides in eight subjects (five females and three males) and no left-right asymmetries were observed: the left BSTc (1.71±0.16 mm3) was comparable in size to that of the right BSTc (1.83±0.30 mm3) (P=0.79). No asymmetry was observed in the BNST-dspm either [19]. The rest of our study was therefore performed on one side of the brain only. Brain weight of the male transsexuals (1385±75 g) was not different from that of the reference males (1453±25 g) (P=0.61) or that of the females (1256±35 g) (P=0.23). The cause of death of the six transsexuals was suicide (T1), cardiovascular disease (T2,T6), sarcoma (T3), AIDS, pneumonia, pericarditis (T4) and hepatitic failure (T5). Sexual orientation of the subjects of the reference group (12 men and 11 women) was generally not known, but presumably most of them were heterosexual. Sexual orientation of nine homosexuals was registered in the clinical records [28]. Differences among the groups were tested two-tailed using the Mann-Whitney U test. A 5% level of significance was used in all statistical tests.

Our results might also be explained if the female-sized BSTc in the transsexual group was due to the lack of androgens, because they had all been orchidectomized except for T4. We therefore studied two other men who had been orchidectomized because of cancer of the prostate (one and three months before death: S4 and S3, respectively), and found that their BSTc sizes were at the high end of the normal male range. The BSTc size of the single transsexual who had not been orchidectomized (T4) ranged in the middle of the transsexual scores (Fig. 3). Not only were five of the transsexuals orchidectomized, they all used the antiandrogen cyproterone acetate (CPA). A CPA effect on the BSTc does not seem likely, because T6 had not taken CPA for the past 10 years, and T3 took no CPA during the two years before death and still had a female-sized BSTc.

In summary, our observations suggest that the small size of the BSTc in male-to-female transsexuals cannot be explained by differences in adult sex hormone levels, but is established during development by an organizing action of sex hormones, an idea supported by the fact that neonatal gonadectomy of male rats and androgenization of the female rats indeed induced significant changes in the number of neurons of the BST and suppressed its sexual dimorphism [17,18].

Considered together with information from animals, then our study supports the hypothesis that gender identity alterations may develop as a result of an altered interaction between the development of the brain and sex hormones [5,6]. The direct action of genetic factors should also be considered on the basis of animal experiments [24].

We found no relationship between BSTc size and the sexual orientation of transsexuals, that is, whether they were male-oriented (T1,T6), female-oriented (T3,T2,T5), or both (T4). Furthermore, the size of the BSTc of heterosexual men and homosexual men did not differ, which reinforced the idea that the reduced BSTc size is independent of sexual orientation. In addition, there was no difference in BSTc size between early-onset (T2,T5,T6) and late-onset transsexuals (T1, T3), indicating that the decreased size is related to the gender identity alteration per se rather than to the age at which it becomes apparent. Interestingly, the very small BSTc in transsexuals appears to be a very local brain difference. We failed to observe similar changes in three other hypothalamic nuclei, namely, PVN, SDN or SCN in the same individuals (unpublished data). This might be due to the fact that these nuclei do not all develop at the same time, or to a difference between these nuclei and the BST with respect to the presence of sex hormone receptors or aromatase. We are now studying the distribution of sex hormone receptors and the aromatase activity in various hypothalamic nuclei in relation to sexual orientation and gender.

Lemur. Your killing me. This is the Org. Naturally, all of us here have ADHD and short attention spans. :laugh4: Summary, man, summary!

The opening line caught my attention right away:

Quote:

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Transsexuals have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex.

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Interestingly enough:

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A delusion means holding an unshakeable belief that other people would regard as groundless. For example, the delusion could be the belief that they are closely related to the Queen, although they share no relatives. The person may be quite untroubled by any apparent contradictions. They may see nothing unusual in a member of the royal family serving drinks in a pub, for instance. To qualify as a delusion, many people would argue that the belief has to be quite out of keeping with the person’s culture and family background.

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From one of a number of sites that would concur.

Interesting point, DA, but if transsexuals were suffering from psychosis, standard anti-psychotic medicine would alleviate their problem. One of the interesting things about TG people is how they don't respond to known treatments.

I have no doubt that we will one day have a full understanding of how sexuality and gender identity works in the brain. And it won't be too terribly long after we understand it that we will be able to treat it. So anybody who doesn't like being gay will be able to take some pills and hey presto! They're straight. Likewise, a person who's TG will be able to be cured.

We are a long way from there, however. Neurochemistry is in its infancy as a science.

Oh, I do not suggest that these freaks are psychotic exactly. I suggest that they are mentally ill. It seems to be its own variety of mental illness, but I do not think chopping is the answer. Similarly, putting on tinfoil hats to block CIA mind probes is not the answer for paranoid schizos either.

I remember hearing once that treatment should NEVER play to the delusions of the ill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Oh, I do not suggest that these freaks are psychotic exactly. I suggest that they are mentally ill. It seems to be its own variety of mental illness, but I do not think chopping is the answer. Similarly, putting on tinfoil hats to block CIA mind probes is not the answer for paranoid schizos either.

I remember hearing once that treatment should NEVER play to the delusions of the ill.

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In that case, we should probably shut down all Christian churches immediately. By perpetuating the idea that a virgin gave birth to the son of a god who was then nailed to a cross and died but came back to life, churches are without a doubt "playing to the delusions" of the ill.

the amount of warnings this thread has warranted gives me reason to think it needs to be closed.