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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4796470.stm
Do you think this is the best conclusion to the embarrassing trial in the Hague, or merely means justice won't ever be served?Quote:
Former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic has died in the detention centre at The Hague tribunal.
Me, I'm leading towards a "and good riddance" line of thought. Still, I'm not certain if this might form some kind of closure of the Balkans issue or if it simply means no-one will ever be held responsible.
Maybe. But, in the short run, having an as-yet-unconvicted defendent die in your custody is never a good thing. They denied a medical trip? Not good.
I think he is good riddance.I wont miss him.
Second one in a week, they fall like leaves lately.
Won't miss him, however it is a shame that he never was convicted and punished for his crimes.
:balloon2:
:devil: "Hi! Glad you're here, been waitin' for ya!"
I'll give my oppinion a bit later, when I have time. Now I have some other things to do and I don't want to be short.
To play devils advocate for a second....If he requested medical treatment and was refused...are the UN now an acomplice to murder?
Can the UN put itself on trial? :laugh4:
i feel no remorse but at least we can say, "hey, a high level prisoner died under UN control, your almost as bad as us `with guantanamo" lol
I wanted to see how the ridiculous trial would conclude.
:no:
okay guys remember, let's keep it civil. these obituary threads send to turn into massively digressive entreaties to hate* and i don't want it to happen this time.
*although personally i can't think of a single reason anyone would be offended if everybody called him noncomplimentary names.
RIP to a man mistreated by an organization that claims to be all for human rights, to a man taken out of power because of intel that NATO and the UN fabricated. While he wasn't nessissarily a good man, he was treated far worse than he should have been.
I wish he lived to be convicted...but we're all sure of his guilt anyway...
Some background info sure wasn't to be found on my oh so very independent media.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
"UN accidentally kills genocidal dictator, apoligizes"
:juggle2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...52351166213913
'independant' media, yaya, poor muslims being killed by ruthless nationalist. Just out of nothing... as always...
Milosevic was an evil person, of that I am certain. But I'm equally certain that he was by no means the only such leader in the region, and his was certainly not the only side commiting atrocities. With that in mind, I do believe he was used as a scapegoat by other parties also guilty of crimes in the area.
But this in no way Milosevic' actions or relieves him of the responsibility for many crimes. Just means there are many more criminals walking around freely in the Balkans.
Let's get clear of something first - Milosevic was a bad man for Serbia and I was against him. I took part in his fall on October 5th 2000, and I'm proud of it. For his dictatorship he should have been trialed in Belgrade.
For war crimes - there is no doubt that Serbian Army, and Bosnian Serbs commited war crimes and attrocities, and I am deeply sorry for that. Main problem is this - Serbia did not commit genocide, as it was implied during the Milosevic regime to further destabilize him and force his downfall. That simply wasn't true, and I couldn't support the trial for this (and he was indicted during the '99 bombardment - 5 years after the war ended - what the hell was ICTY waiting for?wreaks of politics messing with the law, and me being a law student simply cannot digest it), despite I wanted him to end up in jail. It's arguable, but general sentiment was that the prosecution wasn't doing a very good job. But we'll never know.
Others thing include this - other sides in war commited similar attrocities, and it is not known, but processes against the other two leaders, let's not name them, were also in phases of (maybe semipolitical) investigation at the time they died. Maybe they would end up in Hague, too, we'll never know. This way Milosevic got all the attention of the media, and is somewhat of a scapegoat.
Anywhay, it is Tribunal's responsibility - recklesness that he died. I feel sorry for him as a man, but not as a politician. I lost much more important persons in my life to feel some special grief about Milosevic.
At least he died in prison...
at least he died incarcerated...
He's dead, I don't see what could have been worse for him. Stripped of power, put on trial, largely ignored and left to die because no one trusts Russia.
Good riddence, he's gone.
He died. Interesting. I wanted to see his trial though....
wonder what his epitaph will say:eyebrows:
Yeah, war criminals and evil dictators have it hard these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
Since he did not die some 17-18 years ago to spare millions of people from so much grief, he could have lived at least a couple months more for the verdict to be reached.
I don't care that justice wasn't served against him, because it wouldn't change anything. A lot pf innocent people died whether he went to jail or not. People are tortured and killed everywhere for no reason at all, punishing someone because he deserves it is just as meaningless. However execution of this men might give a strong a message to other leaders. I think the UN should I admit to negligence in this case, and freak everyone out as being the evil organization it should be. I cannot deal with massmurders by sitting back and having tea with them.
“let's not name them”: Why? Franjo Tudjman and Alija Eteztbegovic. They are dead now, so the case won’t be open. It isn’t a secret, if you read newspapers.
I was there during the war and during your revolution. Congratulation and I hope that my friends from Otpor won’t celebrate too loudly… ~:cheers:
Now, this trial was a farce, politically orientated. Not that Milosevic wasn’t guilty; but the Tribunal just forgot the Serbians victims. As Tudjan said once:”What I will do with the Serbs? Send them to the moon?”. Or “thank God, my wife is neither Serbs nor Jew”…
“Yeah, war criminals and evil dictators have it hard these days.”: Only the used one. The ones from Asia have still good times…
“I think the UN should I admit to negligence in this case” I am not sure that the Hague Tribunal is UN. I think that Milosevic denied it any legitimacy because of that. So, UN won’t have to apologise for something they have nothing to do.
Now, I don’t think he died because lack of care. But, it is now a lot of Serbs prisoners who died in the jail. Two weeks ago, Milan Babic, and now Milosevic… That won’t encourage Karadic and Mladic to surrender…:laugh4:
~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Well, I just didn't want to name anyone and make my post - "look, there are war criminals everywhere". It was just exempli causa.
Glad you were with us those days. I was quite young back then, but I did my share for Otpor...I remeber smuggling spray paint and that glue you put in water to glue posters on walls...memories...
Glad to see that there are informed people who tend to see farther from black&white picture of the world which is sometimes so blatantly offered...Cheers!
Yeah, Clinton's really kicking it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
Good Riddance.
“Cheers!” Ziveli!:laugh4:
Yes, but it was Milosevic who started it all, yadda, yadda... That kind of talk only serves to distract from the point, it being that Milosevic was tried as an individual, as he should have been, and it would have been nice if he lived to be sentenced for what he, as an individual, did.Quote:
As Tudjan said once…
“Milosevic who started it all, yadda, yadda”: Can be discussed if you want. Don’t think that the military bases attacks were started by Milosevic, nor the smuggling of weapons… One wrong don’t make the other wrong better…
Do tell, I am always interested by your first hand accounts of what went on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
if there are all these arguments and misconceptions then mabey he is not so tyranical as they say:martass:
Exactly, and that's why they should be discussed separately. Otherwise it's just a smoke screen to distract from the point of what deed(s) he really did do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
If I were to say now that nobody did anything before Milosevic started to rouse the people up in Kosovo meetings in the late 1980s, we would not be talking about the issue at hand, but instead we would be squabbling endlessly and basically not moving on (and this is one of the important causes for continuing tensions - that's why it would have been good if he got his verdict, to close that page in history for his victims). Furthermore, we would be sliding towards the dangerous area of mass guilt as opposed to the individual one. This sort of poking at each other could go on and on without any real purpose, save that nobody reading it would actually think about Milosevic's crimes any more.
“nobody did anything before Milosevic started to rouse the people up in Kosovo meetings in the late 1980s” Well, except that the Albanians were on the path for up-raising, because they wanted their independence. We can say, of course that Milosevic, from good communist became good nationalist. But to say he started it, no. He jumped on the train and used id.
“Furthermore, we would be sliding towards the dangerous area of mass guilt as opposed to the individual one” I agree with that. However, there is an actual procedure from Bosnia against Serbia where Bosnia wants Serbia responsible for the aggression (say the war) and the “genocide”. Nothing said about the Croatian-Bosnian War, and the Bosnian versus Bosnian (Abic vs Izetbogovic). To held Serbia responsible is an attempt from individual to mass guilt.
“This sort of poking at each other could go on” And it will until real justice for all victims will be done. That is why I was in favour to judge Milosevic in Serbia. Because at the end of the day, his victims were in majority Serbs, Serbs expelled from Croatia, Serbs expelled from Kosovo, from Bosnia, bombed and isolated by 10 years blockade.
It could have been done with Croats and Bosnian witnesses. I don’t think that Kostinica nor Draskovic have love for him. He tried to kill the last one, like he killed his allies Arkan and Stombolic.
Because they died before, the other two procedures never started. So, who should have been found guilty: the only one still alive: Milosevic. Unfortunately, he died. He is out of reach, like the two others.
It will be up to historians to debate now. But politic and media made their choice.
I am sad that Milosevic died. I was curious what he had to say, but also what the prosecutor had to say. Because I watched the beginning of the procedure, and let me tell you it was absolutely crap. Milosevic was in command, and you could see the face of Carla Del Ponte (even if the case was built by Louise Arbor). That is why it took so much time. They had to restart all.
And now, pfuff, no more. After the suicide of Babic, now the death of Milocevic, it will be very difficult to convince Karadic and Mladic to surrender, don’t you think so?
So, I agree basically of what you said. But still, the crimes, all the crimes won’t be investigated. That a shame.
“nobody did anything before Milosevic started to rouse the people up in Kosovo meetings in the late 1980s” Well, except that the Albanians were on the path for up-raising, because they wanted their independence. We can say, of course that Milosevic, from good communist became good nationalist. But to say he started it, no. He jumped on the train and used id.
“Furthermore, we would be sliding towards the dangerous area of mass guilt as opposed to the individual one” I agree with that. However, there is an actual procedure from Bosnia against Serbia where Bosnia wants Serbia responsible for the aggression (say the war) and the “genocide”. Nothing said about the Croatian-Bosnian War, and the Bosnian versus Bosnian (Abic vs Izetbogovic). To held Serbia responsible is an attempt from individual to mass guilt.
“This sort of poking at each other could go on” And it will until real justice for all victims will be done. That is why I was in favour to judge Milosevic in Serbia. Because at the end of the day, his victims were in majority Serbs, Serbs expelled from Croatia, Serbs expelled from Kosovo, from Bosnia, bombed and isolated by 10 years blockade.
It could have been done with Croats and Bosnian witnesses. I don’t think that Kostinica nor Draskovic have love for him. He tried to kill the last one, like he killed his allies Arkan and Stombolic.
Because they died before, the other two procedures never started. So, who should have been found guilty: the only one still alive: Milosevic. Unfortunately, he died. He is out of reach, like the two others.
It will be up to historians to debate now. But politic and media made their choice.
I am sad that Milosevic died. I was curious what he had to say, but also what the prosecutor had to say. Because I watched the beginning of the procedure, and let me tell you it was absolutely crap. Milosevic was in command, and you could see the face of Carla Del Ponte (even if the case was built by Louise Arbor). That is why it took so much time. They had to restart all.
And now, pfuff, no more. After the suicide of Babic, now the death of Milocevic, it will be very difficult to convince Karadic and Mladic to surrender, don’t you think so?
So, I agree basically of what you said. But still, the crimes, all the crimes won’t be investigated. That is a shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrvojej
Was that a mistake or abysmally bad argumentative style?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Damn time the U.N. killed that idiot. Can't believe anyone would defend that b*****ds life, swear i'd like to see someone defend Sadam Hussiens life. Nothing like justifying dictators actions to start your sunday morning.
He was a mass murderer. I'de hate to see your community if mass murderers are considered good men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
In the words of a great man i know...
"Milosevich died last Friday and i had no idea....Shows how much i care"
Exactly. However, the argument that some crimes are excusable or justified because of other crimes was on minds and lips of many of the sickos who ended up ordering or committing the atrocities. Making crimes relative to other crimes only makes them look less terrible. And that's why such deeds should not be compared to each other, but rather viewed for what they were, and not how they compare on an imaginary scale of inhumanity. It sucks that he died before the verdict was reached, since his verdict would potentially help many to get over such circular arguments and leave the past where it belongs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus