What is your religion? If it's not listed below, please specify. Thanks!
-ZainDustin
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What is your religion? If it's not listed below, please specify. Thanks!
-ZainDustin
I be a Christian, and Proud of it!
:smile:
-ZainDustin
wow!, 100% of the sample, (2) are christians!
I think heretic Christian is pretty much what i am.~;)
Lol, I seriously think it won't last. Would be nice if it did though.
-ZainDustin
Athiest*, though I would aslo have liked a "Godless Infidel" option.
Which, yes, is a valid answer for the question, given that it means that you have no religion.
Correct. Atheism is the same thing as Religion-less, which becomes a religion in itself
-ZainDustin
Atheist to the core.
Superman doesnt exist, the Force doesnt exist, so God doesnt either.
I'm an "everythingist". Essentially I believe that God loves variety in all things, and so loves variety in our worship of him.
Holding a belief that "your" religion is the only true religion is arrogant and impossible to prove.
However, I am not so arrogant myself as to believe that you are wrong. Instead I believe that no one can ever truly know the will and intent of the Lord. This view is reflected in all religious teachings.
One more point: I also do not believ in Original Sin. This concept has lead to guilt-based existential perspectives, a view I cannot embrace. It would be better to allow humanity to die out, then to allow one human soul to perish for all eternity in damnation for merely failing to worship in a specific way. Thus, I can never accept Christianity, but I accept the fact that it is impossible for any living man or woman to know anything for 100% certainty.
To me, faith is believing in something that you know cannot possibly be true. It takes no faith to believe in, and worship, the Lord. This is because purpose defines reality. If there is purpose in one thing, then there exists purpose in all things.
Since when is Superman (A recentish CARTOON) the same as God?
How did the Universe come into being?
Just some questions, nothing personal or anything.
-ZainDustin
Edit: These questions are for Atheists, Lancelot in particular.
He is comparing God to a bedtime story. His view of God is the same as our view of Superman, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
I'm no atheist, but I'll play anyway. An atheist views the universe as primarily the object of chance. Essentially, the view is held that initially all energy in the universe was concentrated and that a chance occurence caused this energy to interact with itself in a way that resulted in massive and total instability. The result is our big bang theory. The idea that order of any kind has formed from the chaos of this energy, is due in part to the realtionship between chaos, energy, order, and probablity.Quote:
How did the Universe come into being?
Consider the following:
Imagine an empty space. Devoid of light, of objects, of heat or cold, of any impule whatsoever. Now consider an object of energy, a positive impule. This particle of energy can, may, may not, will, or will not act in any manner whatsoever. Will it double itslef? Can it? Will it not? Will it move or remain static? Can it? What if their are two similar particles of energy? Will they interact through attraction? Interact through negative attraction? Will they be netrual to each other? Now multiple this by infinity- an unknown quantity of energetic material in existence. This is chaos.
The difference between atheists and believers is essentially the relationship between chaos, order, and energy.
An atheist believes that this chaos, through chance alone, has interacted with itself to eventually become the current state of things. The existence of this energy is indisputable. How the energy initially came to be is irrelevant- it simply exists. This notion is furthered by scientifically solvent principles that matter cannot be destroyed- it can only alter its form.
On the other hand, someone who believes in God sees the order as evidence of God. A believer would see the relationship between chaos, order, and energy from a different perspective. The guiding principle behind this is that chaos itself is impossible. No true chaos actually exists. If true chaos existed, then that would mean that order could not exist, because the two are mutually exclusive. The question then becomes one of explaining our perception of chaos. This is where predictable chaos fills the gap for religious orderists. In essence, if chaos were to be engaged within defined limitations, then chaos itself could be made predictable. If chaos is predictable, the it is useful. Now we come to religion. Chaos can only be made predictable through purpose. By assigning intent to chaotic exchange, it can be controlled through prediction.
That is why I say, if there is purpose in one thing, then there is purpose in all things. Chaos is made predictable through purpose. This purpose is imposed by the will of God.
You said a lot of words, without saying a whole lot, in the sense of explaining how the Universe was created. You only mentioned a boat-load stuff about chaos, which is great. Anyway, the idea of matter not getting destroyed is great and all, but where did it all come from. It HAD to have come from somewhere.
-ZainDustin
Actually, I side "a lot of words" which has a much greater meaning. Put this information into application.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
It explains everything. The Lord does not act in some imaginery 4th dimension. He is a living God. His acts are thus visible for study in our lives. The evidence of His will surrounds us. The purpose behind His will is what escapes humanity.
Consider this: Close you eyes and let the world evaporate from your consciousness. Ignore the sounds, the smells, your breathing. Ignore your very mind telling you that this is stupid and what is the point.
Consider this state as the perspective of God. But the difference between you and God is that He would remain in this state for eternity, while you, a mere mortal, will perish.
Existence, our existince, is His purpose. The purpose of God's will is existence itself. We live for God's pleasure. And all religious texts offer that information.
He created the "universe" as an environment. But imagine a fish tank with no fish.
He created living this that will serve him automatically. They are pre-programmed to serve his will. Thus there is no good or evil in their actions. Their will is God's will.
Then he created humans. Unique as can be in that we have free choice. We can do the will of God or we can refuse. And it is this choice that defines not us, but the Lord.
By choosing to act as the Lord desires, we fufill his purpose. Our will reinforces his will. We are his reason for existence, and He is ours.
But what about violence, murder, senseless acts of selfishness?
That is our actions against God's will.
What about natural disasters and random accidents that cause death and mutilation?
That is the environment that God has placed us in. In order for it to exist, there must exist some chaos. We cannot exist ourselves without this environment. And God works within his creation, not outside of it.
What about Big Bang?
That is God's will. Let there be light!!!
What about evolution?
Again, the Lord works within his creation. We do not "magically appear". You are the product of living material that has existed for thousands, if not milions of years. We did not appear out of thin air. We came from genetic material that has existed for longer than recorded history.
Consider the concept of adam and eve. Before "the apple" they were unable to differentiate between good and evil. Thus they were incapable of following God's will voluntarily. An event, call it an apple or whatever you wish, occurred that transformed the human consciousness into what it is now. That event was the will of God. And it is the reason I do not believe in "Original Sin" as is presented by Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. We should not be regretful of that event. We should embrace it! And thank God for giving us the gift of knowledge of Good and Evil so that we may voluntarily choose to do his will.
You explained yourself very well, thank you. In comment to your talk about evolution, the bible says he used the dirt from the Earth to form our bodies, and breathed in our nostrils to give us life. So, Evolution looks shaky from that prospective.
-ZainDustin
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Oh, not at all my friend. You see, since matter cannot be destroyed, only "recycled", our bodies did indeed come from the earth. Our bodies are up of substances taken directly from digested plant and animal matter. This plant and animal matter itself did not come from nothing. The plants grew from a combination of nutrients in the soil, oxygen, adn water. So, in that sense, we most certinaly come from the dirt itself.
Consider further- Evolution explains that man, through a lengthy process, came from a series of less and less capable and adaptable beings. The very bottom of this step is the creation of life itself- a single-celled being with just the right balance of properties (probably a simple early form ofplant life). This was then "injected" with the ability to govern it's own behavior in accoradance with the programmed will of God. It became the difference between dirt and, well, living dirt. It would be indistinguishable to us. What is a dead man? He is not living, but yet he is made up of material that once was alive. What is the difference between a dead man and dirt? Nothing. The cells have ceased to be self-governing. That is the only difference between life and dirt.
But God would not create a man from thin air. He works within his own creation to achieve what we see today. YOU are the direct product of that "living dirt". YOU are actually a very very old being. You were not "created" at the day of your conception. You, or what would become you, existed in living material for millions of years. We are all actually much older than ourselves.
It is a misperception when we say our age is "35" or "12". That is merely the age of your present state.
Interesting... There are a lot of interpretations, and that's where God comes in. He is the one who gives you the feeling of what's right. That's where induvidual belief is, and some people just don't listen.
-ZainDustin
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Well, I disagree that interpretation is where God comes in. God comes in before that. It we who do the interpreting, and many times we who do the MISinterpreting.
I do not believe that God wants to "work from behind the curtain", like the wizard of oz. Nor does he work in mysterious ways.
God wants us to find him. Through science. At that point, all knees will bend. And humanity will be changed for the better. We will still have choice, but the relevance of that choice will be real. Because now, people can act like they do not have a choice by arguing that there is in God.
Take away the mystery and we do not take away choice. We make the choice more real than ever before.
Your writing is very poetic.
I believe that God can plant the seed in interpreting things.
I'm going to go for the night, so, I will talk to you later.
-ZainDustin
as in the other thread i voted "other". as i have no religion, it seemed the best choice.
Don't Rightfully know... don't really give a rat's ***. I'm one of those all or nothing sorta guys, if I chose to follow christianity again I'd probably be one of those wack-job guys calling for a new crusade in the middle east.
Atheism is not a religion. But yes I am an atheist...
"Other" once again...
Still searchin'...
Sigh, how many times... :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
I am an atheist.
God exists. But then God is a very flexible idea no? Is he a destroyer? The suprere judge who will strike down any who disobey his will? Or is he merciful and loving? Will she accept all who do well to those around them. Maybe she doesn't care, moving about the world like a child in a sandbox, destroying creating as he sees fit. Maybe god is the sum total of existance?
Personally I don't care. If God wants to smack me for helping people, but doing it outside her rules, well then he is a god I don't want to deal with.
As a side note I do like the concept of the Jewish Satan as I understand it, he exists not as the Lord of Evil and God's nemisis but as a servant of God who challenges people. Am I mistaken in my understanding?
How is heathen a religion?
Now I'm not into Satanism. Anyway, I've heard of Satanism for a long time, but I don't understand where they get the laws of Satanism. Do they make them up? Do they follow what Satan did by luring people to do evil? Maybe I'll google it.
And surely if everything has to come from somewhere so does your God. Where did he come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Wasn't He always there? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
SOTHERN BAPTIST:2thumbsup:
Agnostic, with some interest in deism (why isn't that an option anyway?)
yeah throw some deism up there, thats where i stand.
According to the bible God is outside of time, so there is no way for us to be able to understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
-ZainDustin
No. no and thrice no. Atheism in not a religion.Quote:
Correct. Atheism is the same thing as Religion-less, which becomes a religion in itself
linkQuote:
Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes as atheists both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not.
I can understand why some people who hold superstititious beliefs cannot understand an absence of belief, as it runs counter to everything they hold sacred.
I used to be a Christian, and then I learn to think for myself.
Another rare topic that JAG and I completely agree on.
hassidic jew YAY!!!
I was trying to suggest that-Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
A- I have no evidence that Superman exists. Unitl I see him, I have no sensible reason to just believe he exists.
B- I have never seen/heard from/whatever God. By the same token as Superman, I have no sensible reason to believe God exists.
Until such time as God/superman prove their existence, I submit neither exists. And furthermore- If you believe in God, you must logically be inclined to accept that superman exists also. Which I doubt many people would.
I am also suggesting that to believe in God because you believe he has spoken to you/you have seen him/felt his presence etc etc is no justifiable evidence as to his existence.
There is so much of the human mind we dont understand, we naturally ascribe anything we cant understand to a higher power. Which I think is unwarrented and premature.
If I went around saying I am a real jedi knight and I believe in the Force, people would think I was nuts...what is the difference with any of the major religions? The only difference is the major religions have some 2000years of clouded and muddled 'backstory' that for some bizzare reason somehow legitimises it.
Not quite what I meant. When I said that it was a valid answer, I meant that since it's a fancy way of saying "I have no religion", it answers the question just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
How can you have a religion with no faith?
I'm a anti-organized churches christian.
I love you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
And you too...Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishMike
I'm just going to summarize my beliefs in a few sentences.
I believe that the Christian Bible is true, 100%. I believe that it has many different interpretations, but in all reality it only has one true interpretation for different things. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, he is God's son, and that God is the divine creator of all things. 'Nuff said.
If you are one who believes the bible, but disregards parts of it, you aren't doing the right thing.
-ZainDustin
Do you believe in the literal story of the Creation?
Yes, because I believe God has the power to do anything he wants.
-ZainDustin
So god is a dictator!
So, the world is in your belief about 6500 years old?
I believe that when God created the Earth, he didn't create a baby Earth (Adam wasn't a baby when created). So in real life, it's probably in the thousands, but there could be some set by God fossils of animals that could date back to very old.
-ZainDustin
...
God took a lot of time on all this didn't he?
He is divine, and outside of time. He's pretty awesome.
-ZainDustin
According to the literal interpretation of the Bible and Creationists, the Earth is 6500 years old. Do you believe this literally or are you interpreting this, away from its literal meaning?
Yeah if he iss real, then he REALLY pwns us all...Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Yes. 6500 years.
How would you respond to the charge of explaining Carbon dating?
could you explain further?
You've said in another post that you disregard (parts of) the OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Do you eat shellfish ? Are you pro excecuting witches ? Do you always give money to beggars ?
what's the OT?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
linkQuote:
The 14C Method
There are three principal isotopes of carbon which occur naturally - C12, C13 (both stable) and C14 (unstable or radioactive). These isotopes are present in the following amounts C12 - 98.89%, C13 - 1.11% and C14 - 0.00000000010%. Thus, one carbon 14 atom exists in nature for every 1,000,000,000,000 C12 atoms in living material. The radiocarbon method is based on the rate of decay of the radioactive or unstable carbon isotope 14 (14C), which is formed in the upper atmosphere through the effect of cosmic ray neutrons upon nitrogen 14. The reaction is:
14N + n => 14C + p
(Where n is a neutron and p is a proton).
The 14C formed is rapidly oxidised to 14CO2 and enters the earth's plant and animal lifeways through photosynthesis and the food chain. The rapidity of the dispersal of C14 into the atmosphere has been demonstrated by measurements of radioactive carbon produced from thermonuclear bomb testing. 14C also enters the Earth's oceans in an atmospheric exchange and as dissolved carbonate (the entire 14C inventory is termed the carbon exchange reservoir (Aitken, 1990)). Plants and animals which utilise carbon in biological foodchains take up 14C during their lifetimes. They exist in equilibrium with the C14 concentration of the atmosphere, that is, the numbers of C14 atoms and non-radioactive carbon atoms stays approximately the same over time. As soon as a plant or animal dies, they cease the metabolic function of carbon uptake; there is no replenishment of radioactive carbon, only decay. There is a useful diagrammatic representation of this process given here
Libby, Anderson and Arnold (1949) were the first to measure the rate of this decay. They found that after 5568 years, half the C14 in the original sample will have decayed and after another 5568 years, half of that remaining material will have decayed, and so on (see figure 1 below). The half-life (t 1/2) is the name given to this value which Libby measured at 5568±30 years. This became known as the Libby half-life. After 10 half-lives, there is a very small amount of radioactive carbon present in a sample. At about 50 - 60 000 years, then, the limit of the technique is reached (beyond this time, other radiometric techniques must be used for dating). By measuring the C14 concentration or residual radioactivity of a sample whose age is not known, it is possible to obtain the countrate or number of decay events per gram of Carbon. By comparing this with modern levels of activity (1890 wood corrected for decay to 1950 AD) and using the measured half-life it becomes possible to calculate a date for the death of the sample.
As 14C decays it emits a weak beta particle (b ), or electron, which possesses an average energy of 160keV. The decay can be shown:
14C => 14N + b
Thus, the 14C decays back to 14N. There is a quantitative relationship between the decay of 14C and the production of a beta particle. The decay is constant but spontaneous. That is, the probability of decay for an atom of 14C in a discrete sample is constant, thereby requiring the application of statistical methods for the analysis of counting data.
It follows from this that any material which is composed of carbon may be dated.Herein lies the true advantage of the radiocarbon method, it is able to be uniformly applied throughout the world. Included below is an impressive list of some of the types of carbonaceous samples that have been commonly radiocarbon dated in the years since the inception of the method:
That's a lot of reading, if you understand it, do you think you could summarize it?
-ZainDustin
Old TestamentQuote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Carbon dating is a way to see how old something is, like dinosaur bones are a few million years old and such, it's based on the radioactive decay of Carbon-14.
I worship myself and the good sides to humanity. I'm against all the large organised religions but that doesnt mean Im against all sorts of spirituality and mysticism... instead I believe that every individual have to find their personal god that fits them.
Okay, carbon dating. This can easily be explained from what I said earlier. God didn't create a baby Earth. So, there must be some things he planted on the Earth that began with a certain age, like Adam.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
I don't disregard them. I only know that the biblical laws have changed since the crusifixion.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
-ZainDustin
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
It boils down to this. Whilst organisms are alive they absorb carbon. When they die, the isotope of said carbon start to decompose. There is a measurable rate at which carbon decays in this process. Therefore by observing the amount of decay we can determine when the organism died and how long ago it was.
WARNING:
I seem to have remembered hearing some jokes passing between people at my school about 'Chuck Norris' and 'God'. I'm concerned this thread will bring up said jokes and I'm warning you right now...
...I'LL KILL YOU!!!
(Back on topic)
Carbon dating is a hard subject to deny buddy.
I have explained carbon dating with our topic.
Quote:
Okay, carbon dating. This can easily be explained from what I said earlier. God didn't create a baby Earth. So, there must be some things he planted on the Earth that began with a certain age, like Adam.
No you didn't. Please refute carbon dating.Quote:
Okay, carbon dating. This can easily be explained from what I said earlier. God didn't create a baby Earth. So, there must be some things he planted on the Earth that began with a certain age, like Adam.
Whilst you are about it, pray tell me where it appears in the Bible that dinosaurs were here millions of years before humans? Never mind Adam.
BTW who did Cain marry? By that time (according to the Bible) there were 3 people on Earth. Him and his mum and dad.
I got it!
God created a wife for him!:idea2:
:juggle2:
You have not explained Carbon dating at all... the problem for you to explain is that there are many many examples of human remains which are MUCH older than 6500 years. As in, modern human beings, who when they were alive in whatever primative tribe or grouping they lived were essentially biologically identically to you and I.
i'm not going to refute carbon dating. I've already explained how it is related.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs, as far as I know.
Cain either married one of his sisters, or God created him a wife. But I"m sure it was one of his sisters. If you would see, interfamily marriages weren't bad back then. And the bible hardly ever mentions women births, only the sons.
-ZainDustin
So incest is in Gods plan? :inquisitive: :no:
Well, if you're not going to refute it, we can take it that you cant?
I don't know about the incest thing.
God planted things on the Earth when he created it that were already dead and a fossil. Carbon Dating is probably true, to an extent. If he would have started the world as new, no trees would have been grown, there wouldn't be any Oxygen, and it just wouldn't have worked.
-ZainDustin
atheist. and no... not a religion... just not.
it's a belief position... (in that no, i can't prove the supernatural doesn't exist definitively, so i believe there is no god/s) but that isn't the same as being a religion.
It's either true or false. :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
Atheism is lack of religion. Why is that so hard to understand? (talking to everyone)
It is true, but it tells the age beyond the creation, where age was just programmed by God.
Looks like you lost the arguement then. :laugh4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
except that God can do whatever he wants in your position, yeah? there are no limits... so it would have worked, because god wanted it to...
But you are missing the point... The bible says God created the first human 6500 years ago. There are MANY examples of human remains that are MUCH older than this date. God couldnt have put HUMANS on earth to get it all nicely ready for the first HUMANS to arive. Plus, the bible gives a detailed day by day account of when he created pretty much everthing, it was done over a week, no? So is the Bible wrong on this matter?
Explain yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneApache
God can do anything. But, I believe he created a world already in motion.Quote:
Originally Posted by mystic brew
I'd say it goes beyond a lack... to a positive disbelief.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
because in the first post you asked 'whats your religion?' and listed atheism as one of the options.
Then later you sayso i just thought i should make it clear that atheism isn't a religion.Quote:
Atheism is the same thing as Religion-less, which becomes a religion in itself
Why would He do that ? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainDustin
BTW iirc there are only male children of Adam and Eve mentioned in the Bible: how did they reproduce ? :dizzy2:
I notice I haven't stated my views yet: I'm agnostic: I do like to think there is a reason for all this, but I don't pretend to know it, there might be a Creating Force (or Creator), there might not be. I don't think that if there is a reason that humans are a more important part of the universe than say, dogs or amoeba. There might also be a middle stage between the Creator and humans: Gods, Angels, Demons, Spirits, whatever. I'm not saying it is likely, but always found the huge jump between God/Creator and man a bit strange considering the huge spectrum of existence between man and rock.
I think religion in moderate amounts can be a good thing. It gives people a moral compass and it can help people through tough times. I don't like fundamentalism, the denial of scientific theory based on some ancient book, or people telling me how (and when) i should have sex.
As for religion itself, I'm not a big fan. Basically, I think 'our' God (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is a sadistic bastard to be frank. While these religions like to blame everything bad on Satan or the weakness of man, it is God who allows these to exist. He cast out Satan from heaven (for disagreeing with him, and he did have a valid point...) but allows him to torture mankind, heck, according to the story of Job he even helps on occasion.
We were cast out from paradise for eating a friggin' apple. God, with all His wisdom about the nature of man (heck, He created us, He should know how we think) thought it would be a good idea to plant a forbidden tree right in the middle of the garden of Eden, baring delicious looking food, and then telling us not to eat it. Right, like that was ever going ro work...
What is the reason of so much suffering on earth ? Draught in Africa: what have all those Ethiopians ever done wrong ? Floods in New Orleans and Asia, earthquakes everywhere, tornados... This isn't always a nice place to live.
But really that's all just whining, I could accept all that, there is a lot of beauty in the world too. What really gets me hating religion is hell. Over half the population in the world will end up there, at least. Not only will all those infidels fry, also all the sinners go there, and there sure is a lot of sin in the 'faithful' world too. Remember that the meek shall inherit the earth (when the kingdom of Heaven arrives), God hates rich people. And the whole western world is rich on a relative scale. If you own a computer you're gonna fry :oops:
And then there's the end of times, when the antichrist comes and there will finally be peace on earth (and some freaky lamb-lion lovin'), God will come along again and bring us 40years of darkness and suffering. Oh yeah, God is love. If you're a masochist.
Sorry if I've offended anyone, I'm not a big fan of this 'God' character in the Bible.