When does one go to heaven?

This question has been bothering me for a while and I hope a Christian could give me an answer.

Let's assume that there is a man living deep in a forest with no contact with other humans. Now he is living completely according to the teachings of Jesus, but he does not know that. He even does not know that there is a God.

Would this man go to heaven?

If so, then what if there is another man and he lives among other people and chooses not believe in God or any other belief but still lives completely according to the teachings of Jesus.

Would this man go to heaven?

He would not go to heaven if God leans heavily on the conditions that the man believes (only) in him. But that condition is the one that has nothing to do with how humans interact amongst themselves. So he could be a perfectly good man and an example to other Christians bar the fact that he does not believe in God.

If not, isn't it strange if a man who has done some bad things would still go to heaven because he does believe in God? Why would a being so powerfull as God care so much wether a person believes in him or not?

well you get what you want, if you don't want a relationship with god he doesn't force you, if you are good and have not encountered god it would be quite remarkable as all human comunitiys that have existed for a resonable period of time have developed a religion of sorts in which case as the individual clearly wanted a god they probably would end up in heaven, however i can't tell you who will end up in heaven i have not the authority but i will say that hell may only involve seperation from god which would surely be what a non believer wanted anyway?

If God exists and he loves you, you go to heaven.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

If God exists and he loves you, you go to heaven.

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if you want to go to heaven and if you truly repent what you have done wrong (god forgives all those who truly repent), god loves everyone that is not a factor.

Once again no one can say anyone is definately going to heaven its no one but God's decision

You can do whatever you want for the whole of your life so long as you repent on your deathbed, and truely mean it :idea2: Or failing that, just leave everything to the church.

no because you knew what you were doing when you were sinning and so would not truly repent you would have to truly repent for trying such a ''trick'' first

Basically god set us up for fall. He thought "hehehe.. I'm going to create some people with free will and a mind of their own. The poor fools are bound to get all rational and not want to believe in a bunch of weird illogical superstitions - and then their ass is grass baby!"

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent. If such a being exists - and gives a monkey's about us (of which I am skeptical on either count) then we are all going to heaven. Why not? Why would such a being want to torture us just because we wouldn't do what some organised religion said?

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

no because you knew what you were doing when you were sinning and so would not truly repent you would have to truly repent for trying such a ''trick'' first

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Yeah I can do that :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Basically god set us up for fall. He thought "hehehe.. I'm going to create some people with free will and a mind of their own. The poor fools are bound to get all rational and not want to believe in a bunch of weird illogical superstitions - and then their ass is grass baby!"

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent. If such a being exists - and gives a monkey's about us (of which I am skeptical on either count) then we are all going to heaven. Why not? Why would such a being want to torture us just because we wouldn't do what some organised religion said?

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you have misunderstood what i have said, hell is not nessasaryly punishment, just giving those who don't want a relationship with god what they want! you don't need organised religion you need to believe in god, if you decide that god is illogical that is up to you he gave you the will to decide, take a look at this thread for reasons why belief in god is quite logical (courtesy of Divinus Arma)

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=62352&page=8

in particular this bit

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

:bow: Thanks.

On the matter of intervention, just to clarify. First of all, the Lord is a living God, one who dwells on our level of existence. He is all things and all things are in Him. He does not "live" on a cloud in a bodily form sitting atop a throne, presiding over the dead. He is here. In our time and with us.

God does not intervene by causing us to be remotely controlled robots doing his bidding. Animals do this. Existence is God's "purpose"; He simply exists and was not created, He has chosen to enjoy that existence with His creation. Our purpose is to choose freely to align our will with that of God's will. This is morality. We know what is God's will through prayer. Human experience can contribute towards guiding that prayer ever closer to the Lord. This is a collective experience of humanity, and we are drawing ever nearer to Him.

God operates "externally" (to us) through science. He has created existence using defined limitations on energy which act to make chaos predictable and consequently useful to Him in its ability to interact with itself. It is this order that provides proof of the Lord's existence. The alternative is based on chance, which is unpredictable chaos. The problem with unpredictable or total chaos, is that rules of order are unable to form because chaos itself counteracts against itself. Thus when a trend begins to form, chaos destroys the trend.

A simple proof that shows that chaos is not unpredicatble is this simple rule:
Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only alter its form. This is important because unpredictable chaos allows matter, or energy, to do anything, including double itself or cease existence without another force acting upon it.

How does predictable chaos prove God? Another way to frame this question is, can predictable chaos self-purpose? Or in other words, can chaos designate for itself how it is predictable? The answer is no. Chaos requires a will to shape its limitations, no matter how small. The opposite would be unpredictable chaos, because the energy decides action for itself, to include chaoticide and self-perpetuation.

Thus, predictable chaos proves the existence of a will that defines the limitations of chaotic energy in order to make that energy interact usefully with itself towards some end. This will is what we call God.

The question than becomes whether this will is self-directed or externally directed. Or in other words, is this will self-aware or not. This is the difference between a personal God like that of Judeo-Christian belief systems or an inpersonal God like that of Eastern perspectives.

More to come...

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My answer is not from a Christian (you don't want a Muslim or Jewish perspective?), but from a person who has studying spirituality, in all forms, for over half his life.

Heaven and hell do not have to be after death, but are conditions of life. There's no waiting period or divine judgement. If you choose to live unwisely, you will suffer (and so may others). It's a direct cause-and-effect.

This model fits Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount" as well as any religious definition. The Bibles usually call it the "Kingdom of Heaven", but don't say it is obtained after death.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Basically god set us up for fall. He thought "hehehe.. I'm going to create some people with free will and a mind of their own. The poor fools are bound to get all rational and not want to believe in a bunch of weird illogical superstitions - and then their ass is grass baby!"

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent. If such a being exists - and gives a monkey's about us (of which I am skeptical on either count) then we are all going to heaven. Why not? Why would such a being want to torture us just because we wouldn't do what some organised religion said?

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Someone needs a hug.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

you have misunderstood what i have said, hell is not nessasaryly punishment, just giving those who don't want a relationship with god what they want!

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Er.. ok. So because I am doubtful of the truth of the bible I want to go to a magic demon's land where little devils will poke me up the bottom with forks?

And this is all quite logical :inquisitive:

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So because I am doubtful of the truth of the bible I want to go to a magic demon's land where little devils will poke me up the bottom with forks?

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Baby, lets keep your weekend breaks in Amsterdam out of this.

I might be wrong but I believed that the conventional christian position is that belief in God is necessary for salvation. As a former catholic IIRC good people who do not know God go to Limbo, which again IIRC is a sort of "we don't know what to do with them but we think God might" sort of place. Not too bad, not too good, a sort of heavenly Buckinghamshire.

But to be honest they rather make the cosmology up, (as opposed to all the rest which is of course rigorously factual). Bits of limbo were abolished recently, which you have to say is some pretty major demolition work going on in the celestial spheres.

Afterlife fans will be pleased to hear purgatory is still there, for now.

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Originally Posted by Idaho
Basically god set us up for fall. He thought "hehehe.. I'm going to create some people with free will and a mind of their own. The poor fools are bound to get all rational and not want to believe in a bunch of weird illogical superstitions - and then their ass is grass baby!

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent. If such a being exists - and gives a monkey's about us (of which I am skeptical on either count) then we are all going to heaven. Why not? Why would such a being want to torture us just because we wouldn't do what some organised religion said?

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Did anyone see the devil's Advocate?
If I go with a theory about god I'll go with the one Al Pacino makes at the end of the movie.

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Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent?

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Did anyone see the devil's Advocate?
If I go with a theory about god I'll go with the one Al Pacino makes at the end of the movie.

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Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent?

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for the same reason there are wars, famine, epidemics, etc...
If the guy exist he probably gets high on pain and misfortune.

interesting question, the way I was taught in theology, and this may be only a Catholic opinion on the matter, is that irregardless of whatever religion or religion you aren't a part of, is generally not the persons fault and is a rather moot point anyway. If you are born a Hindu and do not convert to Christianity, its because that is the way you were taught as a Child, and even if you never convert, as long as you are moral, just, and good you are still considered a child of god and deserve to earn a spot in heaven. Thats the opinion in modern Catholicism anyway, and even if you are a terrible "sinner", its likely that you can repent all of your sins in purgatory, and still earn a spot in heaven... so according to this theory, men like Stalin and Hitler may not necessarily go to hell, just spend a Very Very Very long time in purgatory...

why is there this obsession with blameing god for evil in the world, he gave mankind free will, if mankind choose to act like idiots then bad things will happen but just because god gives us the freedom to do what we want, you say he delights in wars!
god loves everyone so i doubt hes gonna give anyone what they don't wan't as long as they repent of what they have done wrong. God is what created everything good so if you want to go without god then the good things will be gone to, just the same as if you stop eating, you might get a bit hungry!
an interesting thought, when did Jesus mention Purgatory?

''Er.. ok. So because I am doubtful of the truth of the bible I want to go to a magic demon's land where little devils will poke me up the bottom with forks?

And this is all quite logical ''
geeze man listen to what i said not what you think i said

(you will probably go to heaven)
''if you want to go to heaven and if you truly repent what you have done wrong (god forgives all those who truly repent)''

although again i must say that no one can say who will be in heaven

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

if you want to go to heaven and if you truly repent what you have done wrong

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Then I don't want to go to heaven. Its my decision, not Gods. I can do all types of evil things and no repent on purpose. There is nothing he can do about that.

If god loves everyone, why does he comdemn such innocent people to such horrid deaths? :juggle2:

Not supposed to stump anyone, please answer my question.

When I, a 31 year old single male who seems to change jobs once a year out of business principle or moral principle and couldn't tell you within reason if I were a liberal or a conservative bcause I'm that Fkd up, goes to a party and ends up taking home a 19 year old college girl because she happens to like the same music/movie/politicIian/PAC/monster truck/dinner/punk band/writer as I do. On one hand I get hell from my grandma who says I'm too old to be single, on the other I get to boink young ladies who weigh 100 lbs and can put their ankles behind their heads. I may die alone, but I can assure you, I will die happy. That is heaven

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

why is there this obsession with blameing god for evil in the world, he gave mankind free will, if mankind choose to act like idiots then bad things will happen but just because god gives us the freedom to do what we want, you say he delights in wars!

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It's because of the logic, derived from the position that Christians take about their god. Atheists and agnostics try to understand using the thought process they are used to - which excludes faith based assumptions.

God created everything. Since evil exists, therefore he created evil. As creator, he cannot claim credit just for good. Thus he can be apportioned responsibility for evil, even if his creation of Man is the one choosing to inflict evil.

Or:

God created everything except evil. Since evil exists, there must be another creator, at least as powerful as God. Either this is Man, creating evil from his own free will, or another supernatural creator such as Satan. Evil is demonstrably as powerful as good to affect men's lives, which means either Man or Satan is as powerful as god. Therefore there is not one god, but at least two.

See? :inquisitive:

Whereas the atheist can argue that since there is no God, Man takes full responsibility for both good and evil.

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Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

If god loves everyone, why does he comdemn such innocent people to such horrid deaths? :juggle2:

Not supposed to stump anyone, please answer my question.

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haven't i ansered this already? well ive also ansered it in another thread:

(in anser to the question of why god would let a single child suffer)

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

It is a good question that is often asked of religious people in the end it all comes down to freedom imagine you had a body guard escorting you everywhere and stopping anything that they dissaproved of even when you didn't understand why, there is so much in the world that god does not like more then we could ever know they are all taken seriously if god were to interfere with one then god would have to interfere with the rest too.

Freedom would be almost nonexistant and many would find existance intorerable. So, say a child dies, you blame god for not stopping this in so doing you don't have to worry about the real cause of this childs death but the fact is that the child died for a reason i.e. there was a factor that caused it to happen there are two groups of such factors the man made and the natural, a natural cause is part of the very reason we are here and so the suffering caused by it is a bi product of the way the universe works and so should be balanced out if not outweighed by the good that comes of the natural world (there is probably more of this then we will ever know too) or the event was caused directly or indirectly by man, in which case god did intervene but instead of giving mankind a fish he taught him to fish (i.e. he taught us how to live best without harming others) so he has in fact intervened.

Do you wan't to be controlled? any intervention is control and im sure you yourself know that by helping one person another can be indirectly harmed, (e.g. letting a man in line in front of you at a sandwhich shop, i kind act, untill, because you intervened he leaves the shop earlyer just as Franz Ferdinand goes by!)

This is the best explanation i can give at two in the morning!

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the quotes from this thread
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=62352&page=8

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

Then I don't want to go to heaven. Its my decision, not Gods. I can do all types of evil things and no repent on purpose. There is nothing he can do about that.

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if you wan't to do that you can, though i doubt he would send you to heaven if you didn't wan't to go anyway. See how happy you can be without all that god has provided, maybee then you would appretiate it more!

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Originally Posted by Haruchai

It's because of the logic, derived from the position that Christians take about their god. Atheists and agnostics try to understand using the thought process they are used to - which excludes faith based assumptions.

God created everything. Since evil exists, therefore he created evil. As creator, he cannot claim credit just for good. Thus he can be apportioned responsibility for evil, even if his creation of Man is the one choosing to inflict evil.

Or:

God created everything except evil. Since evil exists, there must be another creator, at least as powerful as God. Either this is Man, creating evil from his own free will, or another supernatural creator such as Satan. Evil is demonstrably as powerful as good to affect men's lives, which means either Man or Satan is as powerful as god. Therefore there is not one god, but at least two.

See? :inquisitive:

Whereas the atheist can argue that since there is no God, Man takes full responsibility for both good and evil.

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one man builds a tower a mile high, made entirely of diamonds ground to size by hand, with a city at the top 1000 miles sqaured balance perfectly comprised of diamond towers a mile high each with a city at the top comprised of the same towers going on into infinity.

another man walks up to one of the towers and drops a handfull of dust over the tower coating a few of the diamonds untill the wind blows the dust away. this is just a small representation of the difference in power between god and satan, god is infinate with infinate creation and Satan can only obscure a small amount of god's creation, god lets him do this evil just as he lets humans do this evil when they so wish because he gave both free will. But it is only a brief obsurance of gods infinate creation they are not equally powerful by any stretch of the imgination, evil is not a creation, evil is only the obscuring of gods creation, it can't even leave a scratch.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

one man builds a tower a mile high, made entirely of diamonds ground to size by hand, with a city at the top 1000 miles sqaured balance perfectly comprised of diamond towers a mile high each with a city at the top comprised of the same towers going on into infinity.

another man walks up to one of the towers and drops a handfull of dust over the tower coating a few of the diamonds untill the wind blows the dust away. this is just a small representation of the difference in power between god and satan, god is infinate with infinate creation and Satan can only obscure a small amount of god's creation, god lets him do this evil just as he lets humans do this evil when they so wish because he gave both free will. But it is only a brief obsurance of gods infinate creation they are not equally powerful by any stretch of the imgination, evil is not a creation, evil is only the obscuring of gods creation, it can't even leave a scratch.

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Woah, easy with the brain washing.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

But it is only a brief obsurance of gods infinate creation they are not equally powerful by any stretch of the imgination, evil is not a creation, evil is only the obscuring of gods creation, it can't even leave a scratch.

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OK, I give up. There's no point in discussing logical premises derived from a faith based system. We won't ever see eye to eye, we don't even speak the same language.

~:cool:

I recently talked to a Jehova witness (no I did not close the door instantly) and he said that if everybody lived according to the bible there would be no war. I replied that one could be peacefull without believing as that way of living has on in essence nothing to do with believing in a god. He responded that I wouldn't go return when God creats his paradise on Earth. I wouldn't mind since I would be dead and wouldn't even know that this paradise was created. Then he asked wether it wouldn't be a missed opportunity, just in case.

Later on I thought about it a bit more and came to the conclusion that if a God puts believing in Him above being a good man I would not believe in him. (Besides not believing in a greater being anyway, but that is not the point of discussion here.) To me it comes across as childish that a God would need attention or otherwise you wouldn't be invited to his afterparty.

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

If you are born a Hindu and do not convert to Christianity, its because that is the way you were taught as a Child, and even if you never convert, as long as you are moral, just, and good you are still considered a child of god and deserve to earn a spot in heaven.

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Then why believe?

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

why is there this obsession with blameing god for evil in the world, he gave mankind free will, if mankind choose to act like idiots then bad things will happen but just because god gives us the freedom to do what we want, you say he delights in wars!

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If we seem to delight in wars and bad acts then obviously god did not create us with free will, god created us with a tendancy to delight in wars and bad acts. Like I say - he was setting us up for a fall.

I reckon he has 'children' on planets all over the universe. He's just running us through mazes while detatchedly making notes. He no more loves us than a scientist loves the mould in a petri dish.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

If we seem to delight in wars and bad acts then obviously god did not create us with free will, god created us with a tendancy to delight in wars and bad acts. Like I say - he was setting us up for a fall.

I reckon he has 'children' on planets all over the universe. He's just running us through mazes while detatchedly making notes. He no more loves us than a scientist loves the mould in a petri dish.

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ahh but not all of us delieght in wars though! god gave us a choice if we chose war its our fault not god's

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Originally Posted by Haruchai

OK, I give up. There's no point in discussing logical premises derived from a faith based system. We won't ever see eye to eye, we don't even speak the same language.

~:cool:

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Get of your high horse for a minuite here! :laugh4:

I could have said the same superiority crap and run away too, there is logic in religion i don't see much logic in a universe born of chaos but i don't go around saying how illogical you guys are, you guys have asked my to expain heaven so that is what i did, in the best way that i can.

Its hard to read context in text, so if you are just agreeing to disagre and not trying to paint my beliefs as faith based and illogical (as it seems you are to me) then fine. :2thumbsup:

There is no logic in religion. I'm sorry but the very premise of deriving reason from faith is just plain preposterous. Believe in your God if you will, I shall not bother your faith; but such a claim puts me off.

On another note, logicians have come to the interesting "conclusion" that logic is, to use an old British India answer, "turtles all the way down." You cannot pinpoint its beginning.

Therefore, if I am an arrogant bastard, I will immediately claim that from such conclusion we can draw another conclusion (thus turning it in to premise :laugh4: ) that there is no beginning.

But I won't.

Now, pardon the interruption and please continue.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

There is no logic in religion. I'm sorry but the very premise of deriving reason from faith is just plain preposterous. Believe in your God if you will, I shall not bother your faith; but such a claim puts me off.

On another note, logicians have come to the interesting "conclusion" that logic is, to use an old British India answer, "turtles all the way down." You cannot pinpoint its beginning.

Therefore, if I am an arrogant bastard, I will immediately claim that from such conclusion we can draw another conclusion (thus turning it in to premise :laugh4: ) that there is no beginning.

But I won't.

Now, pardon the interruption and please continue.

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there is logic in religion, if a higher being was to compile a list of rules for society then i would argue that the teaching to love your neighbour would be the simplest and most logical teaching to send.

We can each have a different logic from our different perspectives and come to different conclusions but i can assure you that from my position the existance of god is entirely logical, although i can except that you do not see it as logical from your position.

I cannot see chaos somehow creating complex laws of science, i can't see a universe starting for no reason or self concious beings just happening to pop along after a while instead of the universe being a cloud of gas or a giant black hole :laugh4:

I just kind of browsed this thread, and I want to answer the original question.

I will answer the questions regarding eclectic logic in the other thread. I'll just say this: There is no faith. Faith is believing in something you know cannot possible be true. Faith will not feed us, clothe us, or fulfill us, no matter how it is sold. Logical worship is the only answer and it does answer all questions. I'll respond to these legitmate arguments in the religion thread.


Re: Heaven. Before one can ascertain "how" to get to heaven, we must first ask "if".

I will assume first that my conclusions on logical evidence of a self-aware will has been accepted. If it is not accpeted, than they points are irrelevent. I will be happy to debate the matter in the other thread. For now, I hope you can simply understand the following logic until I have made my other points clear enough.

All world religions share a similar vision of the Lord. Our God is a living God. We have no evidence of any other existence than this one, but it is arrogant to assume that our feeble human minds know all. We do know for certain of this existence. And if the Lord is a living God, than he dwells with us here and now, not in a place of our imagination.

This, I think, is a critical foundation for a discussion on the nature of the relationship between mortality and relevance. After all, our search for heaven is nothing less than a search for relevance. If we conclude that our existence ceases beyond our mortality, than in existence our lives are futile and without purpose. Our existence, then, is without purpose, the universe is without purpose, and thus ultimately, there exists no self-aware will.

The two are interlinked and provide the key to our exisetnce, the realtionship between the Lord, and our innate sense of being and purpose.

Through logical interpretation of the nature of chaos, we have discovered the truth of a living will. Through logical interpretation of the purpose of the living will, we have discovered that this living will is self-aware.

And now us. We exist. But toward what end? What purpose? We complete the cirlce of purpose through choice, choosing to serve the will with our own will. This, therein is heaven. This, you have found in life, should you manage to achieve it. We remember our impermanence in state to release our struggle with desire. Through the acceptance of things as they are rather than as we would wish them, we achieve harmony with our surroundings.

We come now to death. And as our will is alligned with the will of the lord, so to shall that continue in death. Our alligned will and harmony with the continual change of state will allow us to join the will. As we have been the will through our lives, choosing to allow God to work through us, choosing to sacrifice ourselves in order to truly be His will in life, so to should there be no reason for this ceasing upon death. We simply continue in being his will, and in so doing, become the will.

Because we have sacrificed ourselves and chosen to be his will, there is no self, only His will. And so the differences between us in life dissapear as we become the will. You do not cease to exist. You always were. And you always will be. You were never "born", as you have been alive since life was formed. You are aged. Older than yourself. Older than your parents, and they too, as old as you. And so on back through the ages, you have been alive, until the day that you were on this earth, in order to have choice. Shall you follow the will of the Lord?

:bump:
This is one thread I did not wish to kill.

@Divinus Arma: if you commit the sin of bumping you won't go to heaven!

At first I (was hoping) thought the question was at what point does one go to heaven - as in the old "and the dead shall rise and be judged" ... or the "you will be with me at my father's side this day" (Jesus to the petty criminal being crucified with him - that asked to be saved). Then I read the posts, many not so original ideas ... but, all well presented (mostly).

The idea that one's sins can be forgiven - for a price - is a Catholic one. But, the idea that if you "change your ways" and accept Jesus as your saviour .... wellllllll, that's an evangelican one (Baptisits and such). The idea that if you live your life correctly, harm no one with with intent (except to protect your family), seek a true meaning in life, find your center in the universe, help the less fortunate, judge lest you be judged, and honor yourself - then your a Buddhist.

On old TV (1950s) there was Bishop Sheen, my parents (Lutheran) watched him (and made us - I mean my bro's and me were 6, 4 and 3 - eldest here) religiously. He was great, because he explained things simply (on his blackboard) and never proclaimed his interpretations as being absolutes ... he basically said as long as one believed in something and didn't intentionally break the laws of god, they could (might) get an audience with the lord. Me, I remember his interpretations on angels as though it were yesterday (somethings just stick in your head ... ya' know?). Thing is, getting to heaven has a great deal in acknowledging God, but accepting Jesus has nothing to do with it - except by the interpretation of evangelicals (etc). IMO, that is how it has been presented.

Now, when does one actually attain heaven? Upon death - after X amount of time in purgatory (or do we each find our level on the 9 plat's of H'eck) ..... or do we simply go into a limbo until "judgement day"? When all the dead shall rise and be judged? Or, are we reincarnated 'til judgement day?

Nothing 'bout that thing Bush believes in ... you know where the true believers will be rushed up to heaven on an escallator to watch the end times? Gah! But, when do the true believers actually reach their goal? upon death, or the end of times? Don't mean to hi-jack the thread, am just curious.:skull:

[QUOTE=KafirChobee]
Now, when does one actually attain heaven? Upon death - after X amount of time in purgatory (or do we each find our level on the 9 plat's of H'eck) ..... or do we simply go into a limbo until "judgement day"? When all the dead shall rise and be judged? Or, are we reincarnated 'til judgement day?
QUOTE]

my problem with the idea of purgatory is that i have never seen jesus mention it in the bible, and if it exists, surely he would have mentioned it?

time is just another dimention and can be manipulated, so when we all die we could go straight to a judgement day surely?

OH, OH!!!! I know this one's origin - about purgatory .... it's that phrase about Jesus descending into Hell and then rising from the dead and then ascending into heaven. No? :balloon2:

a phrase in the bible? where? does it make specific reference to purgatory?

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Originally Posted by Haruchai

It's because of the logic, derived from the position that Christians take about their god. Atheists and agnostics try to understand using the thought process they are used to - which excludes faith based assumptions.

God created everything. Since evil exists, therefore he created evil. As creator, he cannot claim credit just for good. Thus he can be apportioned responsibility for evil, even if his creation of Man is the one choosing to inflict evil.

Or:

God created everything except evil. Since evil exists, there must be another creator, at least as powerful as God. Either this is Man, creating evil from his own free will, or another supernatural creator such as Satan. Evil is demonstrably as powerful as good to affect men's lives, which means either Man or Satan is as powerful as god. Therefore there is not one god, but at least two.

See? :inquisitive:

Whereas the atheist can argue that since there is no God, Man takes full responsibility for both good and evil.

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Okay, let's change metaphors and lets look at a family situation?

A set of parents create a house and in the fullness of time, they get pregnant and have a child. As the child grows, the parents try to do everything they can to see to it that the child grows up healthy, happy and wise.

When the child is 19, he discoveres his parents' liqour cabinet. He asks his parents for a key so that he can indulge too. Now, mind you, I said 19. He's old enough to know good and bad, right from wrong. His Dad says well, I think you're old enough. But before you touch anything, you must understand, things in this cabinet must be enjoyed in moderation. Too much of anything in here and you'll be very sick, possibly die. So, be careful.

One saturday night, a friend that the parents don't approve of comes over to hang out. Unfortunately, the parents aren't home. The 'friend' encourages the son to drink bourbon... a LOT of it. Too much. After he vomits it up, the friend holds the bottle to his mouth and encourages him to drink more. Eventually, the son succumbs to alcohol poisoning and dies.

Now, let me ask you...

Were the parents to blame?

Was the alcohol itself?

No, it was the son, who made the choice to continue drinking when he should have stopped, to hang out with a bad influence that he knew he should avoid, and to reject what his father had told him in his warnings.

Now, could the parents have seen to it that there was no alcohol? Does the fact that they didn't make the son's overindulgance their fault instead of his? Let's say the son didn't die. Let's say he pukes all over the floor, kicks his younger sister and breaks some valuable family heirlooms. His father comes home to find him staggering drunk, attempting to beat up his younger sister. The father backhands the son to try to bring him back to reality. Is the father solely responsible?

This is the problem with modern times. Everyone demands their rights, and nobody takes responsiblity for anything. We're all a bunch of children complaining that our piggy bank is empty after we've bought too much candy.

As for the original question, Duke John,... forget what any dogma or 'true vision' of Christianity says (Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist, or any other worldwide cult, and I AM a devout Christian).

How did Christ treat the establishment of the established religion of his day. He railed against the Sadducees and the Pharisees. He said they didn't have the first clue about what the Father wanted.

More importantly, He warned all of us against passing judgement on each other and condemning each other "Remove the plank from your own eye, then you can see clearly to help your brother with the speck in his".

But He also said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Noone may come to the Father except through me".

If you're asking if anybody else has the right to say you're bound for heaven or hell, no, nobody else on Earth can tell YOU where you're headed. If you're asking do you need to know Christ at some point in your life, I think so. I know that I do. If you want to talk about Christ, let me know. I'll tell you what I've learned of Him. If you want to talk about why we suffer from evil in the world, I can offer you my guesses. If you want answers, well, I'm sorry, you're going to have find those for yourself. No shortcuts.

Eh, meh, not really belonging in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanamori

To be a bit combative, I wonder why I should accept Jesus' explanation over anyone else. Even better, why should I accept the Bible's account, I've read it, and it was not God talking to me. The only authority above myself is God, and God hasn't been talking to me lately. Of course, not taking the Bible as an authority over myself, because it is not God, could be a sin, but I think there are very few that will be pleased w/ this conclusion.

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You ever wonder if it's that God quit talking to you, or you already have all the answers and quit listening?

If I cannot identify that God is God, I'm in a whole lot of trouble, no matter what.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanamori

If I cannot identify that God is God, I'm in a whole lot of trouble, no matter what.

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Yahweh is who is. Whether you choose to know Him, seek Him and listen to Him is entirely up to you. He doesn't change, you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

This is the problem with modern times. Everyone demands their rights, and nobody takes responsiblity for anything. We're all a bunch of children complaining that your piggy bank is empty after we've bought too much candy.

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I second that. :yes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Yahweh is who is. Whether you choose to know Him, seek Him and listen to Him is entirely up to you. He doesn't change, you do.

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Know what, you almost seem to know what you are talking about - but, then you get definative that you are right and no one else should have an opinion. It is a matter that you, and you alone know the truth - what ever that truth might be.

Now, I like your allegory about the kid and booze (think I heard that one by my pastor back in 1962), but to use such things to attempt to make a point? I must ask, what is your point? That you and only you know right from wrong? That we change as does the direction of the wind? [when, how, and why - when will people accept the law that abortion is legal? - or is mans' law lesser than the gods'] Do men have free will, or are we governed by the will of god - as, Bush confesses to be ("God, made me president").

Perceptions, ideals, ideas, concepts, philosophys, theorys, axioms, or unbiased (or biased) opininions - all are relevant. The idea that one idea of god is superior to another? Well, that's from those convinced that only they and they alone know the truth ..... like say the jihadist and the christian right. The rest of us are open to ideas - I mean, I like the idea of wood nyphms. Why not?

So, when does one go to heaven? At death? Or, at the end of times?

When did I say I was right and nobody else was entitled to an opinion? :dizzy2: Read my post to Duke John's question directly. I said what I thought and offered to discuss it with him further.

Some people started saying that they didn't think there could be a God, because evil happens and He allows it. I tried to offer an alternative explanation for what happens, and you come along and declare me to be intolerant and self-righteous.

You know, Khafir, I don't think in the two years I've been on here, you've ever had anything even remotely nice to say about me. You've called me a host of names I cannot repeat without getting warned, which is funny, because you didn't get warned when you called me them. I thought this might actually be the first time you weren't going to be downright insulting, and then I re-read your post above and recognized that this was one of your more nefarious attacks to date.

If the best you can do is to just continue to mispresent what I've said and then insult me on the basis of what you've construed, perhaps you should simply add me to your ignore list. I can assure you, I'm not worth the agitation and heartburn I apaprently cause you.

Insult? Challange, yes. Insult, no. Sorry, you took it that way Don.
Must be my aggressive style of writing - will try to be more cautious in the future (though at my age don't count on much).