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Hi Guys
About to upgrade the old machine here in the UK and I am posting this to ask what spec of machine I need to look at. Also any suggestions as to the best place to buy.
I would like to run RTW:BI with huge units and the higher settings for the graphics also the higher settings of MTW2. What do I need?
I prefer GeForce cardsas I have heard that ATI ones do strange things.
cheers
ATI makes very nice cards, so don't believe anybody who says different.
Nvidia has the lead in two areas: drivers and heat/power consuption. In other words, they work wonders with their drivers, and they release them much faster than ATI. Also, their current manufacturing process allows them to release cards that consume less power, and therefore run cooler. Beyond that it's a wash; both ATI and Nvidia make a great product.
One thing that would be nice to know -- what screen resolution do you like to use? If you're looking to max everything at 1600x1200, that's a very different story than if you're looking to rock out at 800x600.
Thanks for replying.
I use a Phillips LCD monitor with a resolution of 1024 x 768 so we are looking at a screen (even if updated) in the middle of the range.
I am cautious about the ATI cards because I also play Combat Mission and the forums there report that the fog effects do not work with ATI cards despite several attampts at work arounds. This may seem a minor quibble but when you are leading a battalion charge against two MG42s, you need all the help you can get!:skull:
cheers
At 1024x768 you should be able to get away with a mid- to low-end card. One more question -- doe your current mobo have an AGP or a PCI slot for the videocard? If you're not sure, you could just post your current videocard model, and we'll be able to work it out.
My current machine is a Dell Dimension 4550 Pentium(R) 4 2.53 Ghz, 256 RAM with a NVIDIA GeForce4 MX420 card in a PCI slot.
This will run RTW:BI in the small unit size with most of the graphics detail set to medium or in the large unit size with the graphics set to low. So it could be better and I fear it may struggle with MTW2.
I had almost the same setup and I upped to an AMD64-3000, 512RAM/9800Pro and an AGP MB. I saw a huge difference in performance. :yes:
The benefits to this upgrade are lost cost, good solid performance with almost every game, and proven components.
If you've got the cash, though, the sky's the limit. What's the budget, low, medium, or "dad's paying for it"?
As a dad, I resent that remark. I also resemble that remark. Does this mean that if I spend too much on PC gear, I can shrug it off and say dad's paying for it? Even if I'm him? There's something recursive and scary about this line of reasoning ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
[edit]
Oh, and Dragon, you may run into problems upgrading that machine. Some Dells use non-standard power supplies which make upgrading a real pain in the RAM. There is a silver lining, however. Dell offers upgrades when you trade in their machines, and they will give better in-house credit than you could get for it on Ebay. So you might want to talk to your friendly Dell drone and see how much credit they'll offer you on an upgrade.
When you get the new Dell, wipe the hard drive immediately. Then load a fresh copy of Windows. It's a lot easier to do it that way than to sort through all of the shovelware Dell pours onto the hard drive. Trust me, I've tried it both ways when helping out my friends and neighbors.
Hi Lemur
I was aware that Dells do not upgrade easily and so was looking at replacing it. I do not mind getting another Dell so will find out what they can do for me as one option. Option two is to buy a machine that can be upgraded in the future.
I am trying to stay off the question of budget and to keep focussed on the minimum spec of machine that is needed to run RTW on huge unit size with most of the graphic effects on and the same also for MTW2. If I know that then I can probably get a deal on a "last years model" or some other way to keep the cost down.
For instance is 512k RAM sufficient or do you need to go up a step? What sort of processor is best and if I look for a mid range graphics card - what am I looking for? :inquisitive:
cheers
Unfortunately, it's all about the budget. :embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoncrusader
RAM is cheap. Get a Gig.
For game CPUs, AMD rules. Some of their lower end 64bit CPUs can be bought very cheap and give great performance.
As for the video card, a lot depends on whether you are going AGP or PCI-E. AGP will save you money and allow you good range of medium to high power cards. PCI-E will cost more but then the best ($$$) cards will then be available.
For example, an AGP setup with an AMD64-3500/1024RAM/7800GS-AGP is a hot system that you could get for a reasonable price.
Dragon, I second everything Beirut just said. 512 megs of RAM is sub-par these days; a gig is minimum wage for gaming. And like B said, RAM is cheap, so why not go for it?
And he's absoultely right, a comination of a lower-end AMD64 chip with an Nvidia card will make all gaming a breeze. I don't know your budget, but the 7800GT is a great AGP card, and the 7900GT is a great PCI card (although possibly more than you need).
Once again, Beirut is right. We need to have some notion of your budget to go much further.
Hi Guys
thanks for your suggestion so far. However I would like to know what the suggested machine actually does with RTW. Does it run the game with units on huge unit size with all the effects switched on, or does it do something less than this?
With regard to budget, I had not given it any thought and have not bought a computer for a few years, so I am a bit out of touch with current prices. So I could spend up to £2,000 on just the tower but would prefer to spend the minimum to do the job and then have money over to upgrade the screen, speakers, etc.
cheers
For 2K£ these guys could find you a monster. Personally (and I'm definately not very tech savvy), I would sink as much cash into the things you can touch and see and hear. Since these are the things you are actually interacting with, I think it makes the most sense to have a mouse that best suits the games you play, a set of speakers that brings out a good game-soundtrack's atmosphere, and then a dazzling monitor.
With a budget like yours, I think you could put together a real stunner. Good luck.
What she said. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
2000P is about $4000Cdn. Gah! The gloves are off.
You could put together a real beast with that budget. A system for that budget could be along these lines: (Cdn. funds. Divide in half for pounds)
AMD64-4000 - $400
2 Gigs fast RAM - $300
Asus SLI MB - $250
Nvidia 7800GTX - $700
Viewsonic VX922 LCD screen - $450
This would be a dream system and still leave a lot of budget free for the peripherals; HD, sound card, CD/DVD, good game mouse, HOTAS flightstick system(!), etc.
(The ASUS SLI MB will let you install a second 7800GTX card later if you feel you need the power. But it's been said you need at least an FX-55 CPU -$1000- to fully exploit the power of twin 7800 series cards.)
I think even for $3000 you could build a rocket if you put a little thought into it.
Hi Guys,
I have been having a look at one of the guides about Maximum Resolution Fix. If you look in totalwar/data/descr_auto_optimise_options.txt it gives the best set up for any given machine.
Using this I can see that my current machine is fine except for the video card because I cannot get 80 unit size on it. Bumping the card up to 128k gets me the unit size of 80 but still normal detail on units and buildings. Going up another notch gets me high detail on units but not buildings and I would need a 512 card to get both. So option one is to see what my old Dell can take in regards to new graphics cards. The screen resolution is fine.
Following Sod's Law that the Dell will not upgrade, lets look at a new machine. In fact to get unit size of 80 and high effects and unit and building detail only takes:
3 Ghz processor
Vertex shader 2
512 video card
256 RAM
My current screen resolution is fine though it COULD go up to 2048 by 1536. So it looks like a new screen would be a good buy and I could get a larger size.
Your point about RAM is excellent as other games I play require 512 RAM so a 1024 RAM seems worthwhile. This seems pretty much in line with Beiruts suggested
So the next question is where in the UK would I get it?Quote:
For example, an AGP setup with an AMD64-3500/1024RAM/7800GS-AGP is a hot system that you could get for a reasonable price.
cheers
PS
I have just seen your latest post Beirut! Thanks for that.
Make sure your new video card supports the Shader 3 option. The Nvidia 6800 cards and up do, as well as the ATI-1800s and up. For my money I would not buy the lesser series cards that support Shader 3, like the ATI 1600 (bad reviews) or the Nvidia 6600 (better choices available). Many of the new games make heavy use of Shader 3. The ATI 1900 is the king of the hill as far as Shader 3 goes. But the cooling fan is very, very loud. My 7800GS AGP handles Shader 3 and is quieter than my 9800Pro.
Also, don't be fooled by the AMD64 specs that say these cards only run at about 2.2 Ghz. They run as fast as much higher clocked Pentium chips. Conventional wisdom these days is that if you're going to play games - then get an AMD CPU.
Even on beastly machines, resolutions higher than 1600x1200 are usually unrealistic. Also, the R:TW in-game res specs can be changed so that you can define the res you want, regardless of your card, but it's a chore to figure it out. I got 1600x1200 with my 9800Pro. It was gorgeous, but I had to limit the size of my units to avoid getting low FPS.
I get my machines built by my local computer dude. he's good, honest, and I know where he lives. :evil: Ask around for reputable computer builders, get references, ask exactly what parts he uses and ask for all the empty boxes when he's finished with your machine, as well as a detailed bill listing those parts and the warranties for the parts as well as the warranties for his work. Don't hand your cash over to some shmuck, make sure you know he's good.
Dragoncrusader,
If you're upgrading the cpu/mb, go with pci-e. Getting a new agp system makes no sense. The 7800GS is a bad buy because its costs the same as the gt but is much slower.
And if you can spring for a A64 4000+, you might as well go for an X2.
You might be right about the CPU. I'm not up on my X2 tech yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
I disagree about the video card and AGP system though. Granted, PCI-E is the future, but right now there is enough life left in the AGP architecture to warrant buying an AGP system if money is an issue. You can still put together a very good AGP system that will run games well for the forseeable future, and some good deals can be found on AGP equipment. I find staying about a year behind the times gives me a good machine at a good price that still handles all games.
If money is not an issue, than I agree that PCI-E would be the way to go.
Money an issue? pci-e mb's aren't more expensive anymore. Why bother with agp when pci-e mb's costs the same and has an upgrade path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
The pci-e versions of the 6800gt/7600gt/x800xl are available for mid-range gamers on a budget. And they cost as much for equivalent agp cards.
The fastest agp card is probably the x850xt-pe. The agp 7800gs is gimped - it costs the same as the 7900gt but has 8 less pipelines and about 20% slower core and to add to the insult, significantly slower than the x850pe in some benchmarks and games.
Egads! A vibrant debate. :2thumbsup:
I bought my BFG AGP 7800GS card for less than the price of an X850XT. They have same pixel and vertex pipelines but the X850XT does not have the Shader 3 option, which is an absolute must for me. I think the 7800GS is a very good card. Then again, so is the X850XT.
I completely agree that AGP is behind PCI-E, but I think AGP still has life in it, more so because good deals can be had on AGP systems. I'm going to be AGP for at least another year and I see no problem running my stuff with the equipment I'll have.
This is not really a debate. I'm just stating the obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
I'm not saying that agp is bad but its not a reasonable choice for a NEW pc when pci-e mbs and video cards costs the same and have an upgrade path.
There is nothing wrong with the 7800gs card except that it costs almost the same as a 7900gt, has 8 less pipes and 20% slower core. Any reasonable person would get the card which is approximately 40% faster in newer games for the same amount of money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...sass/rhino.jpg
Is getting a faster card (by approximate 40%) which costs about as much the reasonable thing to do? Is getting a mb with an upgradable interface which doesn't cost more over agp designs reasonable?
Boy, you sure do make it hard to agree with you. :wall:
I utterly, completely, blisteringly, and unadulteratedly agree that PCI-E is the better choice.
My point was merely that a good AGP system, given that the tech heads are switching to PCI-E, can be got for a good price, making it a viable option for someone looking for a system that is both affordable and powerful enough to play the newer games.
Now be nice. I've got more rhinos and I'm not afraid to use them!
edit - double post
You imply that agp cards and mb's are cheaper but they are not. I suppose it depends on where you live but it is certainly not a reasonable choice in US.
Newegg has only 10 agp mb's but 125 pci-e mb's supporting 939. And there is virtually no difference in prices. There are rock bottom cheap pci-e mbs for $60 as well. The msrp for the agp 7800gs is $350 but the street price is typically around $300 which is the same for the faster pci-e 7800gt. The pci-e 7900gt is about $320.
So why is agp a good price if it is 40% slower in the case of the 7800gs? All I'm doing is stating the obvious.
Need a hug? ~:pat:
Yes I do, I'm feeling quite down at the moment. :embarassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Me and my AGP video card are going to go have a good cry together...
:laugh4: I'm having a laugh while you're crying ( :no: ) ... so sorry. :2thumbsup:
Does post count determine credibility on this website?
I corrected some myths/misinformation in the apothecary section about how 64-bit doesn't mean processing twice as much data as 32-bit per clock, how to properly measure cpu temps instead of going to the bios, how the PIII has a thermal protection circuit and how different PCIe types (1x-16x) have different physical slot sizes. All while long time member JAGirl was spewing out longwinded full page whinny rants in broken English together with her pom pom cheering team from Brokeback Mtn. I'm surprised its taken this long for JAG to get the ban.
PCIe components don't cost extra, is very common in current mb's, outnumbers agp mb choices on newegg by 12:1, is the upgradable interface for future needs and in the case of the 7800/7900gt performs approx 40% faster than its similarly priced AGP equivalent. PCI-e is certainly not esoteric and only for tech-heads.
There's truth in many things.
PCI-e is the future path, the fastest cards are found there and, just peeked at a site, sometimes cheaper than AGP equivalents too. Asus EN6600GT/TD PCI-E is cheaper than Asus N6600GT/TD AGP, same chipset, same RAMamount (I assume they are the 'same' cards, but I'm not a pro).
There's undoubtly the other way around too: PCI-e gfxcards being slightly more expensive (depends what you want and what you can get where). Price difference is only a few or 10's of US$, but that's only irrelevant when you can/are willing to spend extra cash.
There's another thing though, and that can save you quite some pennies, or demand the investment of more (depends on your choice).
When you already got a decent AGP system (benchmarks will blow it away, but what matters is your own requirements and experience) and just need a little boost, buying a new AGP card is the more economic solution (short, med or long term depends on what you do now and next year). Buying a faster and cheaper/more expensive PCI-e card also requires at least a new PCI-e mobo.
When talking about new complete systems: PCI-e is the future, several customers want that (the fastest, the best, the latest), the previous generation parts are then used to assemble cheap entry- up to midrange systems. Some suppliers will make it very cheap, just to get rid of their old stock.
Cheap PCI-e systems may be the better bang for bucks, but when it costs an extra $75, some people will think again.
Credi-what-aty? Never heard of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
Now, now. The tech forum supports nerdiness only - no nefarious noodlings about other member's musings. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
I fell into an unfortunate trap on my last upgrade. I thought my P4 system was adequate, so I got an upgraded AGP card. Unfortunately, I found that I was still held back by system bottle-necks, so I upgraded my proc/MoBo but was forced to stay with AGP because of my shiny new AGP card. My system works great now, but next time I upgrade Im going to be forced to buy both a MoBo and video card at the same time. Ouch. :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
That's very nasty Xiahou. Upgrading is full of pitfalls.
I was thinking of a fair system (different for each user) with an outdated /entry level graphics card: something like a GeForce3. It will run games, but a GF 6600 GT is a cheap solution to boost your new games just a bit more (to a level that may be fine for just you).
I'm in the same position, but by my choosing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
I'm up to an AMD64-3000/1GB/7800GS AGP. There's not much more I can do with this setup. I can up the CPU to an AMD64-3700 (754 pin) and add another GB of RAM, but then I hit a brick wall. But is that really a bad thing?
An AMD64-3700/2GB/7800GS, regardless of better PCI-E performance, is still a smoking hot system and will tear through today's (and tomorrow's) games very nicely. Even a year from now it will be a solid system. So by next winter or spring, I either give the system to my woman for her work PC (a helluva nice office machine!) or sell it, get a decent price, then jump on the PCI-E train and buy hardware that's nine or twelve months old, down in price, and yet still lightning fast.
The balance is up to the individual based on his needs, desires, cash, and, perhaps most importantly, what games he wants to play. For me, as long as my system can smoke through the IL2 series of flightsims, I'm more than happy. I don't need to upgrade until the IL2 guys release Battle of Britain in a year or so. By then, hardware like the FX-60 chip and 7900GTX SLI cards will be significantly cheaper.
Something else that's important, at least to me, is to avoid incremental upgrades. I would rather wait and spend a lot and see a huge leap in performance than spend less and barely notice. I only up my system when the result will make me sit back and go "Wow!" For instance, my video cards went from an MX440 to a Ti-4200 to a 9800Pro to a 7800GS. Each time I turned the machine on and saw what the new card would do, I sat back and marvelled at the sight.
When I turn on my new rig next year, I'll be getting the Wow!" factor again. ~;)
PCIe is not the future, its is the current de-facto standard. There is virtually no difference in the prices of pci-e vs agp mb's and certainly not to the tune of $75.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
Socket 939 pci-e mb's outnumber agp mb's by 12:1 on newegg. AGP didn't get very cheap but supply just dried up. Socket 754 is hanging on only because of AMD's bargain basement Sempron line.
Did you buy these 3 - AMD64-3000/1GB/7800GS AGP together recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Because if you did, it wasn't the smart thing to do.
The 7800GS is already having a hard time with BF2, FEAR, Oblivion let alone tommorows games. Of course turning down HDR, AA, AF, resolution would produce a nice framerate but I wouldn't consider it a smoking hot card for games.
Face it, the 7800gs is gimped. It has 8 less pipes than the 7900GT (4 less than the 7800GT) and has a slower clock speed and is approx 40% slower for the SAME PRICE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
I didn't mean to say PCI-e is the future as in expected to be released next year, but tried to tune in with your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
Sorry to have lost you again, I was talking about complete assembled systems. Some people don't buy parts but a whole computer.Quote:
There is virtually no difference in the prices of pci-e vs agp mb's and certainly not to the tune of $75.
Are complete assembled AGP pc's vs pci-e cheaper because the components are slower and older? Are you comparing apples to apples here?Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
Edit: It wouldn't be appropriate to compare the price of a cheaper Sempron AGP pc with built in gfx with a AMD64 pci-e pc.
I didn't want to be the one to tell Beirut that AGP is dead. I was hoping he would hear it from a relative, someone close who could offer comfort and sympathy.
I'm sorry you had to find out this way, Beirut. I wish it could have been broken to you more gently.
I have AGP and it appears to function. When this message can be read, I'm also tempted to say that my 2+ years old CPU is running :laugh4:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Having trouble reading that, Tosa ... could you re-type that on a modern machine?
Heh, point taken.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ass/rhino3.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by orangat
No, I didn't buy them all together. ~;p
I had an AMD64-3000/512/9800Pro a week ago. Those components were all six or nine months old at least. I just added the 7800GS card and the other 512 RAM within the last few days.
I didn't have the money to buy a new SLI PCI-E MB (might as well get SLI as it looks to the future) and a new CPU (no point in buying a new socket 754 MB, so that means a new CPU), and a new PCI-E Video card. Plus the $450 I already spent getting my woman a new LCD screen as well as myself a 512 stick of RAM. I had some money to spend, but not that much.
So, for the price of the 7800GS and 512 stick of RAM, I saw a significant increase in performance in my AGP machine. Now, y'all can beat me over the head about this till the cows come home, but in the end I found an affordable solution that gave me a very noticeable increase in power. I spend 75% of my game time flying, and with the new hardware I was able to access graphic settings that I could not before, due to Pixel Shader=3 requirements, and I got a big increase if FPS even with the higher graphic settings.
PCI-E is a lovely thing. In a year I'll have a nice PCI-E system I think, but it is unrealistic to write off AGP as being cavemen technology when available AGP systems can meet and surpass almost 100% of all new game requirements. Not the on-the-box requirements, but the real world requirements. Fine, they may not handle F.E.A.R. at 1600x1200 with 16xAF and 8xAA and max settings, but I'll bet less than 10% of the members here have systems that can. Hell, I played through F.E.A.R. with my old system and it looked and played very nicely.
Now, in a year when I get a new smoker of a PCI-E system, I can off my old rig as a whole and get a fair price. And the guy who buys it will still be able to play most games very nicely. Especially if I put in an AMD64-3700 and another GB of RAM during the summer. You'll be hard pressed to tell me that even in a year an AMD64-3700/2GB RAM/7800GS system will be obsolete. Especially for the sim market where we play the same game, with mods and add-ons, for years.
I'm no troglodyte, I'm just not willing to write off AGP hardware if it can be bought at a good price.
My linux box is over 6yrs old and handles a plethora of tasks, including occasional gaming, without trouble. As long as you dont want to do cutting edge gaming, you can get by with pretty outdated machines for most computing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
Meh! For some reason I don't worry about playing RTW at max resolution... because I'm into the strategy side of the game so the neat graphics of elephants charging into guys at close up is not what I'm there for... my system easily handles the huge units, massive battles etc.
It was built 3 and a half years ago... if it was a car it would be 35 years old.
Its just a P4 2.53GHz, 512MB Ram, 64MB Graphics card + Audigy Gold sound card.
Now bang for buck.
This is an AGP system. For around $100 I can upgrade to a 256MB AGP Graphics card.
But to upgrade to a PCI-e, I would have to get a whole new system, as it would be pointless bringing across any of the components. That would cost considerably more then $100.
Then your purchase made sense since you didn't have to upgrade the mb and cpu. But that was NEVER my point, since my first post in this thread, I was talking about NEW agp pc's. Do you still disagree and say getting a new agp mb/card still the way to go? Would you still recommend getting a agp mb and 7800gs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
The crux of the matter is - why go with agp when it is a dead end and pci-e doesn't cost extra. The x1600pro and the 7800gs are probably the last agp cards and have poor performance for the money compared to their pci-e versions.
The 7800gs doesn't even play FEAR at 1280x1024 well unless AA/AF is turned off. The optimal res is 1024x768 which is adequate but not a card I would call 'hot' for current and future titles since its only a little faster than the 6800ultra. Its not bad by any means but I won't recommend it for new systems.
If the price was right, yes. It's all about the money. Otherwise, if the hardware is the same price, then yes, PCI-E would be the better choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
I'm of the opinion that we'll see a significant drop in AGP hardware and system prices. That will open up a new level of performance for people who can't afford the hot new stuff. Someone who's been using a PIII with a 64 meg card, and there are a lot of them, might soon be able to up to a brand new AGP system like, for example, a low end AMD64 CPU with an X800XT for not a lot of money. That fellow is going to see a huge increase in performance. Again, though, it's all about what deal he can get.
Still haven't answered my question about a new AGP pc with the 7800gs? The fellow with the PIII agp pc looking to upgrade was NEVER my point and it is a strawman argument since I was talking about new pc's from my very first post on the thread. Besides, someone surviving all this while with an old PIII 64Mb card isn't a typical gamer and is probably going to be cpu limited anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
And who are you trying to kid about cheap agp x800xt systems? That ship has sailed. The cheapest x800xt agp card is around $300 - the price has gone UP because of low availability. the pci-e version is $220 at newegg and the faster pci-e x850xt is $165. The much slower AGP ATI XL/GTO/GTO2 also have very poor availability and are relatively expensive. On the Nvidia front, both the AGP 6800gs and 7800gs are gimped cards which are slower but cost just as much as their pci-e equivalents.
Owners of AGP systems who bought their pc's 1-2yrs ago are already screwed as it is for mid-range/high-end gaming cards. I'm just stating the obvious truth from cold hard facts, not some whimsical scenario about plunging prices for previous gen parts.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ass/rhino4.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by orangat
Hmmm, then I guess you agree to disagree about agreeing to disagree.
Since we're on the subject, I agree to disagree that AGP owners are screwed for mid to high-end cards. I think there is many a gamer who would view the available ATI and Nvidia AGP cards as desirable indeed. Like me. You may not, given your budgetary or technological viewpoints, and that is obviously your right, but I'm sure some others would be more than happy to have one of the higher end AGP cards in their rig.
No. Its very simple really. I said from my first post in this thread that getting a new agp PC is pointless because pci-e components are not more expensive and are sometimes better but you disagreed. linkQuote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Do you prefer to keep evading the question or answer whether you would recommend at this point a new agp mb with a 7800gs instead of going pci-e?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
That was NEVER my point. Owners of these AGP systems don't have any choice but to buy lower performing agp cards for the same price that pcie owners pay for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
Hmm, could have sworn we've been here before.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
If the price is right, yes. It all comes down to a case of cash, a matter of moolah, a question of quotients, a dingling of dollars, and a pinching of pennies.
I understand your vehement insistence in looking forward, and I cannot argue with your core statement that PCI-E is better, faster, less filling, and able to leap tall building in a single bound, but that does not detract from the argument that if an AGP system can be gotten for a good price, then it is a viable option for many people. Most, if not all, of the games out today can be run very well with AGP hardware.
You may call it whimsy if you wish, but computer parts do go down in price as new technology becomes available. That means that if someone is willing to stay a year behind the technological times, as I do, they can have a good gaming rig for a good price. As PCI-E gets bigger and bigger, AGP systems will obviously drop in price more and more.
As far as I know, there isn't a game out there right now that an AGP system cannot handle well.
I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all. I'm just saying I'm at least a little bit right.
AFAIK, there's virtually no difference between current PCI-e cards and the same model in AGP format. My x800XL would perform no better (everything else being equal) if it was sitting in a pci-e slot instead of a agp 8x one. If you're saying AGP shoppers dont have the same high-end choices as PCI-e one's Id agree. But, you seem to be saying that an identical agp card (same price) would perform significantly worse than a PCI-e one.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
For the record, I dont understand how hardware discussions can get so heated. :shrug:
Heated? Hardly, it was all a lighthearted conversation what with all the Rhino pics. You must get scared easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
And did you even read the thread? The agp 6800gs and 7900gs are gimped. They cost just as much as the pci-e versions but are using older cores(nv40 for 6800gs), have slower clockspeed and less pipelines.
The agp x800xl costs $300 while the pci-e version is much less at $180(newegg). And getting either version is pointless since its getting scarce and the faster pcie x850xt-pe is available for about the same price. While both agp/pcie versions are basically the same things, the agp card is more expensive.
Beirut, I've laid out all the facts. AGP is not getting cheaper, it is getting scarcer and dearer. For example, even if the price on the agp 7800gs dropped by 40%, it will only have achieved parity with what pcie owners have _today_. And that is not assuming the price of the pci-e 7800gs have not dropped as well.
That's the fault of the Nvidia's card, not the architecture. You cant blame the AGP bus for Nvidia crippling it's cards- buy ATI.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
I dont know what cards you're comparing, but they must be a different brand/specs. If you can produce a link Id like to see it. I found an x800xl on newegg for $184 :wink:Quote:
The agp x800xl costs $300 while the pci-e version is much less at $180(newegg). And getting either version is pointless since its getting scarce and the faster pcie x850xt-pe is available for about the same price. While both agp/pcie versions are basically the same things, the agp card is more expensive.
Here's another example:
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB PCI EXPRESS (Retail) --- $264.87
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB AGP (Retail) --- $264.87
link
Identical cards, identical prices, identical performance. :bow:
Don't bring up a strawman argument. This issue is nothing to do with agp/pcie specifications. Regardless, if Nvidia/ATI cripple agp versions, its still not a good buy. My point is that mid-range/high-end agp cards are either non-existant or scarce and expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
It must've just came in today and its OOS already lol. I'm sure lots of desperate agp owners must've cleared it out.Quote:
I dont know what cards you're comparing, but they must be a different brand/specs. If you can produce a link Id like to see it. I found an x800xl on newegg for $184 :wink:
Here's another example:
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB PCI EXPRESS (Retail) --- $264.87
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB AGP (Retail) --- $264.87
link
Identical cards, identical prices, identical performance. :bow:
What is your point about the x1600pro? Its even slower than the x800np/6600gt. There are tons of low end cards for agp/pcie which wasn't my point in my previous posts. The faster pcie x1600xt is available for $150(newegg) but guess what? No agp versions for the x1600xt.
I don't have to provide links for the gimped agp 6800gs/7800gs. You must obviously be out of touch if you didn't already know what is common knowledge. You can look up the specs in newegg.
A strawman isnt any argument that runs counter to yours. Please, let's not go down that road.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
What is your point about the x1600pro? Its even slower than the x800np/6600gt. There are tons of low end cards for agp/pcie which is not my point.[/QUOTE]So, what is your point?
You said that- and you were wrong. That is my point.Quote:
Owners of these AGP systems don't have any choice but to buy lower performing agp cards for the same price that pcie owners pay for.
Talk about attacking arguments that someone didnt make (strawman)- I ceded in my original post the more high-end cards are available for PCI-e users. My only disagreement was with your above quote, which I demonstrated to be innaccurate. You can buy identically priced AGP/PCI-e cards that will give you identical performance. AGP users are not forced to pay the same price for a lower performing card. Guess Im done here. :wink:
If you read the thread, the first poster is unhappy with his 2.53Ghz pc and wanted some suggestions for MTW2. My entire conversation with Beirut was about whether a new agp system for the OTS is still viable. The x1600pro is a low-end card which is not suitable for a new gaming pc.
And you can look up 6800gs and 7800gs specs to see how totally wrong you are. :wink:
Well, I was mainly picking up on the strand of discussion that I mentioned earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
More to the original question, "viable" is a tricky word. Indeed, a person could buy a new mid to high end system based on AGP and pay the same price they would for an identical PCI-e system. But, I would not reccommend AGP to someone who is looking to buy both a new motherboard and video card.
I can vouch for that fact that an AGP system can run all current games adaquately, but if you want 'top of the line' or want your future upgrade paths kept as open as possible, you'd want to go with PCI-e.
To answer DragonCrusader:Quote:
Originally Posted by orangat
You seem to want two things, one is playing MTW2. I've read an interview where a CA official (Dutch PC Gameplay, issue 118, page 21, projectleader Bob Smith) commented on a release date for MTW2, the answer translates roughly too (boy, English to Dutch and back to 'English' :dizzy2: ): We can't say for sure. When things go according to schedule, it could be late this year. Very maybe!
So, it's at least 6 months away from now, but it can be longer. MTW2 is going to use the RTW engine as far as I can understand now. But it will be a very updated RTW engine. We're unsure how the performance will be compared to RTW or RTW/BI.
Unless you have a vague idea about very special dutch computer future needs, it's not a good idea to buy parts or a whole system for a game that will be shipped half a year away or even might be released months later. The same pennies you spend now on a gamble, will buy you much more when MTW2 is actually released. And you will likely be sorry for buying anything now, when you see all the yummie (maybe even cheaper) then.
On this issue, my advise is: wait until a few weeks before a sure release or even better, try your current rig on it first, read about problems people may encounter or special requirements, then judge and buy.
Your second point is wanting better performance now for RTW BI.
You're going to have to break your piggybank now. When you're not careful, you may void the wisdom of waiting and spending too much money, as you may have to buy a whole new system a half+ year from now. Some things to think about: when you upgrade, can you either sell or make good use of your old PC (yourself or family, give it away for charity perhaps)?
From what I recall: RTW isn't all about graphics, performance wise. I mean, it's not the bottleneck and huge boosts like in FPS games won't be achieved. That's not to say that RTW won't gain when you can upgrade the gfxcard.
The CPU looks fine, of course there are better even far better ones, but it will do. The 256RAM is most likely the biggest bottleneck. 1024 will be good, but 512 may be the economic solution and will certainly boost your system.
I had 512 RAM (special reasons), 2 banks left, but couldn't fill those two with an identical pair a year+ later, due to very special, but not dutch, RAM issues with the mobo (was unknown -> that's a risk with being new hardware ~:)). RTW and your system will run fine with 512, you may have to tweak services a bit and optimise swap though.
You mention higher settings for your graphics. You have a PCI GF MX. I lost count after all the marketing tricks with graphiccards, but it's a lower end GF 4 afaik (wouldn't surprise me if it were actually a GF3), and a PCI version too. My PC is about the same configuration as yours, except it's a self assembled system.
My system had a cheap mid/high-range GF4 (I was lucky to find this cheap
deal in a local shop when the world was plagued by the noisy expensive GF5 vacuum cleaners) :jumping:. I replaced it only last year with a midrange GF6 as I wanted to see more in some FPS games. The GF6 will boost RTW.
My advise: don't upgrade for future games, by the time the games are released (sometimes after months or even years of extra delay), there is better and faster hardware for the same price and you can have better idea what you actually need.
Double your RAM, 1024 may be better, but it doesn't really look as if you really need that now.
When you have upgraded your RAM, you, DragonCrusader, may already say: wow! Be very happy, you're done for today: you'll have MTW2 in a year or so and can start saving every penny for a very nice new system then (or another economic solution and save for next year :2thumbsup: ).
If you still need a bit more, get a GF6 card. You can buy yourself an AGP GF6600GT for about $150 or an AGP6600 for less than $100 and even ~$65 for a GF6200. All those cards are available in 128 and 256 RAM. 256 RAM will be better, but your current PCI may have only 64, uses a slower path, has a slower GPU and does not support DX 9. The GF660GT is the fastest of the three, the GF6200 the slowest, but any of them is good. I wouldn't spend extra for 512 MB or even consider a juice wasting 6800. At any rate a possible thing to really consider: can my PSU handle it? All these card require more, I doubt Dell put an overkill PSU in your system.
When you don't have an AGP slot, but really need better graphics, you may have a look at something like Gainward FX5200 128 RAM. Warning: this is not a topcard by any means and it may even not be all that spectacular compared to what you have now.
The card is around $65,-, uses only one slot and is passively cooled -> silent and likely doubles your amount of videoRAM.
As always: it's your computer, your work, your leisure time, your experience, your decision and your wallet. Good luck and be happy.
ATI makes very nice cards indeed, some My Hulk Hogan is better than your Captain America stories go around.
But it indeed seems true that some cards have nastier problems with games, than just not being able to make 102 frames/sec but stuck at only 101.
My system originally had a ATI 9700PRO. One of the best deals at that time (the 9800PRO is better, but also wasmore expensivehad a pricetag I was not willing to pay).
It was great, I had never seen graphics better than that and while my current GF6 outperforms it in the artificial benchmarks and produces a higher fps in the games, I consider the ATI 9700pro to be better. The yellow pixels on the desktop cured every depression, the bimpbups in UT: it's really my Hulk.
But. It didn't work for many games I played. All specs were there, but it didn't work. A full week of driver and directX juggling later, I swapped it for a GF4. That card worked with all games.
I do not know todays status, but in the past ATI had the better hardware, NVIDIA the better drivers. When your games don't run, it doesn't matter to have the best hardware.
You picked up a sentence and took it totally out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
And you are totally wrong about mid-highend agp cards. They either don't exist or are extremely scarce or are crippled pcie versions.
Your lone example of a $184 x800xl is completely flawed because that card is superceded by the much faster (pcie) x850xt that is available for $180 shipped from newegg. No reasonable person would get the much slower x800xl which costs more then the x850xt. Try getting an agp x850xt at a comparable price.
There's a snappy piece of advice. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
Upgrade for what you play now. I did that and I spent "minimum" cash and am very happy with the results. In a year, when my new flightsim (Battle of Britain), possibly running DX10, is released, then I'll see what the real world specs are, and today's hardware like the FX-57 CPU and the PCI-E X1900XTX will have come way down in price. And I'll bet dollars to donuts they'll still run next year's games very nicely.
Truth be told, many games are released that cannot be run on full settings with available hardware. So planning for the future can be risky at best. IL2-FB and Lock On, for example, were both released years ago with graphic settings that were beyond what was attainable with the hardware of the day. Even today, these games can cripple the fastest machines.
I remember when Falcon 4 was released, the company's tech-head posted that it required an 800Mhz CPU and 512 RAM to be run as it was designed. I think the hottest rigs available then were about 500Mhz.
In the end, it's a question of balance between budget and expectations.
:balloon2: Yipee!:balloon2:
I think I have found my solution and it only cost me £30.
My brother has updated his graphics card and gave me his ATI Radeon 9700 Pro which brings my card up a step to 128. I had both AGP and PCI slots available in my machine so it was pretty straight forward. I spent the money on an upgrade for the RAM and went up a step to 512.
How does my RTW-BI run? Fantastic! It runs large unit size in a huge city with all the effects switched on. It runs battles at night with no odd sky effects and it will handle huge units sizes if you turn off one or two of the effects and it does not pause or freeze.
It runs all the other graphics games I play like Combat Mission, IL-2 and Lock-On and it meets the specs for Red Orchestra so I can buy that now.
So the plan is now to wait for the publication of MTW2 and Combat Mission2 at the end of this year and then buy whatever is needed to run them at decent settings.
As to the great PCIE/AGP debate - it failed to answer the question I orginally posed which was what was the MINIMUM machine I needed to do the job. I do not need the biggest baddest fastest machine as I only play 4/5 games, it is probably going to be a mid range machine and if I can get older technolgy at a better price (and it does the job) then I will take it. If PCIE is cheaper then I will take that. If it runs 40% faster then perhaps I should be looking at downsizing the card and getting that a bit cheaper?
A big thanks to everyone for their advice and help, it was all very useful and great fun. :laugh4: No doubt I will be back next year to see how things have changed!
cheers
Excellent! :2thumbsup:
That's a great upgrade. I saw lots of improvements going from my MX440 to a Ti-4200 and then I saw another big jump when I got my 9800Pro. So you must be doing cartwheels going from an MX420 right to a 9700. Your games must be loving that extra RAM as well.
If you can stick another 512 RAM in your beast during the summer, you'll see wondrous improvements in IL2. :yes:
Glad you're having fun.
Yes we did discuss that option to go straight to 1Gb RAM but as my previous post showed from the graphics effects table, RAM should not have much effect on RTW. So we decided to start small.
But the experience of running just the new graphics card and then about a week later with the addition of the extra RAM proves otherwise. The new card really upped the 'look' of the game but it was still choppy when running in a city or on huge unit size. The new RAM sorted that out immediately and on IL-2/Lock-On made a big difference. So if the new games look like they may be later and so into 2007, I very well might take your advice and go for the new RAM.
Had a look at the power supply in the DELL and it is 175w so not a huge room for improvement.
Oh and for those of you who are wondering what I am going to do with the money saved - I am going to buy a proper wood floor for the living room. The last owner of the house carpeted the entire inside with strawberry pink and it is making me suicidal! :wall:
cheers
What is your cpu? Probably anything less than 3Ghz is going to be subpar on MTW2. If you get away with just upgrading your video card, sticking with agp might make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoncrusader
Hi
CPU is Pentium (4) 2,53 Ghz on the current Dell machine and with the recent upgrade it plays the game to the standard I like.
But you are right I will need a faster more capable machine for MTW2 but that will probably be 2007 by the time people have experience of the game on which I can draw.