Poles, Jews, Auschwitz, WWII

Some weeks ago polish government ask UNESCO, if they could change name of KL Auschwitz on German Nazist KL Auschwitz. Unesco disagreed.
Government did it because we have enough of hearing about "polish camps".

But very interesting is how did Jews comment that fact.
One of leaders of World Jews Congress told something like that;
"Poles cannot divide Auschwitz from polish history, especially after things they did". I wonder what are these things. Did we establish Auschwitz????
Did decided to build it there???? Did we murdered Jews????

I think it's nothing more than Jewish blindness about history. They are describing everyone exept USA as enemies of Jews, because they want achieve political targets. Jews can't stand that nazist managed to kill so many jews without fight - this is visible especially from American Jews.

Do you know why these camps (Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec) were in Poland?
Because in Poland lived most Jews into Europe. They moved here in XIV centrury and have never been massacred like in rest of Europe.

Not many people know what american jews though about ghettos and holocaust before pearl harbour.
They did nothing to help other Jews. When nazist closed European Jews into ghettos, Americans Jews were...... happy. Yes H_A_P_P_Y "because for the first time Jews go their self -government.
Furthermore even when polish resistance reported about holocaust, American Jews called it "polish propaganda".

During war no one did more for Jews than Poles. This is out of discussion.
After war polish Jews established country Israel. Not many pps know who was first high commander of Israeli army. It was deserter from polish army. He ran in 1942-1943 but Poles didn't pursue him despite he should be capital punished.

Now Jews accuse us of holocaust. I wonder what they did to stop it. WHat that asshole from Jewish Congress did to save Jews. During war Poles did nothing they couldn't be pround of, which i can't tell about American Jews or Frenchmen.

Yeah its outrageous that all these Jewish people are condemning the name change
http://www1.totallyjewish.com/news/TJ_leader/
Oh sorry , silly me , wrong link , they are understanding the name change:dizzy2:

Sod the Jews - no one has the right to torture a poor defenceless language like that in public!

~:smoking:

I find it unbelievable that ANYONE would not know that the holocaust was a nazi crime, not a Polish one.

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Originally Posted by _Martyr_

I find it unbelievable that ANYONE would not know that the holocaust was a nazi crime, not a Polish one.

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The issue here is not about who commited the crime (as there is nothing more obvious than that), but the fact that many people view the Poles as "collaborators" who "helped the nazis" in their persecution and murder of Jews, which is rather sad and ignorant on their part. Even though there were a few exceptions (most notable is the "incident" at the village of "Jedwabne"), many Poles tried to aid their Jewish neighbours. Infact, Poland was the ONLY occupied territory in which the official punishment for housing/aiding a Jew was immediate death at the hands of a firing squad.
And to think that there is so much anti-semitism rooted in Poland today. How ironic :no:

this thread might get pretty heated...

Gah, Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau, Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia. Former this, former that.
Eastern Europe should get a life. Wait, you've got one. It's part of Europe now, first world. Unpartitioned, unoccopied.

Is it not time to stop this perenial outrage over your history and the percieved misconceptions the rest of the world might have about it? To put an end to anti-semitism, anger at western democracies, the Germans, the French, the English and Americans?

Poland has a long history, there is a lot to be proud of, there is a lot to be ashamed of. Just like the rest of world, eh?

Time to look forward.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Sod the Jews - no one has the right to torture a poor defenceless language like that in public!

~:smoking:

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That is just hilarious. :laugh4:

Krook your going up against the US education system that tends to generalize almost everything. To the average person all of occupied europe acted like Vichy France. That the Germans set up a puppet government that rounded up all the Jews for them for extermination. They would be very surprised to learn that Poland was annexed near totally by the Nazi's and run by Nazi's, and the native Poles treated like scum. Even more surprising for them to learn is that the Poles had compartively very few collaberators, and that they tried to save all their citizens from Nazi predation regardless of religion.

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The Poles would like the name changed to the Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau,

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I thought when something had 'Former' was used in instances when it is still in use.

Artiste formely known as Symbol formerly known as Prince.

If is Formerly blah, what is its current name?

Also it was formerly named Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau... so won't if have to change its name to Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau and then to a third name to even have a chance of being called the Former Nazi German Concentration Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I'm not really a fan of changing name plates and not the fundamentals behind an issue. It comes under the same idealogies of middle management that changing someones job title and folder colour will increase productivity, or the idea that shuffling chairs on the Titanic while it was sinking makes a difference.

Instead of worrying about the cosmetic name change, why not actually inform people to the realities of the situation?

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Originally Posted by lars573

Krook your going up against the US education system that tends to generalize almost everything. To the average person all of occupied europe acted like Vichy France. That the Germans set up a puppet government that rounded up all the Jews for them for extermination. They would be very surprised to learn that Poland was annexed near totally by the Nazi's and run by Nazi's, and the native Poles treated like scum. Even more surprising for them to learn is that the Poles had compartively very few collaberators, and that they tried to save all their citizens from Nazi predation regardless of religion.

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Actually, we were taught that the Poles were treated nearly as badly as the Jews and other 'undesirables'. If one wasn't taught in a specific country, I would suggest that they should not comment on the learning experiences of those who were taught in that country.

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Originally Posted by lars573

Krook your going up against the US education system that tends to generalize almost everything. To the average person all of occupied europe acted like Vichy France. That the Germans set up a puppet government that rounded up all the Jews for them for extermination. They would be very surprised to learn that Poland was annexed near totally by the Nazi's and run by Nazi's, and the native Poles treated like scum. Even more surprising for them to learn is that the Poles had compartively very few collaberators, and that they tried to save all their citizens from Nazi predation regardless of religion.

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Somehow, I knew sooner or later, those filthy pigs, the true culprits, the US of A would be to blame.

You know Lars, for somebody who 'knows' so much about what we think, you ought to skip your "We hate the land to the South that shall not be named" one weekend and come down here and actually learn a thing or two.

Any American kid that actually paid attention in history class (and there weren't many) would be shocked to learn that gypsies were the 2nd largest victim group in the holocaust, as we were taught it was the Poles. But yeah, it's all our fault people in Israel and Europe view Poland negatively.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Any American kid that actually paid attention in history class (and there weren't many) would be shocked to learn that gypsies were the 2nd largest victim group in the holocaust, as we were taught it was the Poles. But yeah, it's all our fault people in Israel and Europe view Poland negatively.

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Technically that is a correct interpretation, but a wrongful context.
If we say Jews, then we say Gypsies, homosexuals and so on. If we say Russians, then we say Poles, Ukranians ect.
So in the ethnic/personal group the Gypsies are indeed second, and many Jews and Gypsies were indeed Poles (see the two groups overlap).
In the national group the Russians comes first, then the Poles and Ukranians, but many of these were Jews as well. so you can't say that number one was Jews, then Poles. They are part of different connections. And if we lumped it all together then it would be Russians, Jews, Poles and Ukranians, but that would lead to faulty opinions on the killed.

*sigh*
It is not even easy dealing with death when it is statistics.:shame:

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Originally Posted by Kanamori

Actually, we were taught that the Poles were treated nearly as badly as the Jews and other 'undesirables'. If one wasn't taught in a specific country, I would suggest that they should not comment on the learning experiences of those who were taught in that country.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Somehow, I knew sooner or later, those filthy pigs, the true culprits, the US of A would be to blame.

You know Lars, for somebody who 'knows' so much about what we think, you ought to skip your "We hate the land to the South that shall not be named" one weekend and come down here and actually learn a thing or two.

Any American kid that actually paid attention in history class (and there weren't many) would be shocked to learn that gypsies were the 2nd largest victim group in the holocaust, as we were taught it was the Poles. But yeah, it's all our fault people in Israel and Europe view Poland negatively.

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I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

It is only a reflection of one's own ignorance to think they can label an entire populace.

It would be fantastic if this thread could stay on topic - if anybody has the urge to discuss the US education system, please feel free to open a new thread dedicated to that topic.

At any rate, I acknowledge that accounts such as these are far more accurate than any saying the Poles in general were responsible for the atrocities.

February 18, 1940
"I met a woman, an official of the Zamoyski estate. She had just arrived from Chelmo. For some time I've been receiving alarming information about the execution of the mentally ill patients of the psychiatric ward at Chelmo Hospital. I asked her if this happened. She verified that it was true.

"All the mentally ill were shot with machine guns, but under penalty of death the hospital personnel are forbidden to talk about this crime.

"It is so hard to believe anything as terrible as this."

March 2, 1943
"I was told about an occurrence in Jozefow. A young man, Konrad Bartozewski, and officer of the Home Army known as 'Wir,' was arrested along with another officer, Hieronim Miac ('Kosarz'). Young Bartozewski, the son of a veterinary doctor, was put in jail. But after a few hours people from the forest came and liberated both of them. After this happened a detachment of German gendarmes came to Jozefow and arrested the entire Bartozewski family. The Germans assembled them near city hall, then in full view of thousands of people, the old veterinarian, his wife, and daughter were executed. Sixty more people were jailed.

"I was told by Mayor Kraus that during his visit to Bilgoraj he learned about a partisan raid in Huta Krzeszowska, where four policemen were killed and one was wounded in the head.

"In Szczebrzeszyn it was announced by the Germans that all traffic on the highway to Zwierzyniec will stop for three days because of military exercises in the nearby forest. People are now fearing new arrests and deportations to Germany."

March 20, 1943
"On Monday, March 15, during the late evening, between 7 P.M. and 8 P.M., a raid at Rapy took place. The lumber mill and railroad station were burned down. The car of Treubander Becker was shot at. In Rozaniec the new owner of a large farm, a German, was killed. The military barracks were burned down. In retaliation the Germans set the entire village of Rozaniec on fire. More than 800 people were arrested and taken to the barracks in Zwierzyniec, mostly women and children. There is talk of the possibility of freeing those jailed by armed action. We are sure the Germans will begin evacuation action against other villages very soon." Linky.

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Chelmo Hospital.

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Never thought I'd read those two words in the same sentance...

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

I'm not really a fan of changing name plates and not the fundamentals behind an issue. It comes under the same idealogies of middle management that changing someones job title and folder colour will increase productivity, or the idea that shuffling chairs on the Titanic while it was sinking makes a difference.

Instead of worrying about the cosmetic name change, why not actually inform people to the realities of the situation?

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Wise words.:2thumbsup:

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Not many people know what american jews though about ghettos and holocaust before pearl harbour.
They did nothing to help other Jews.

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Idiotic.

What were they supposed to do? The strongest powers in Europe were worthless against German military superiority.

However, hundreds of thousands of Jews joined the American, British and Canadian armies to fight against the Nazis, and millions of them bought hundreds of millions of dollars worth of war bonds. What more could you ask of them?

I doubt a special Jewish army would have stood any more chance against the Nazis than the British, Polish, and French armies combined did. :shame:

THis is just *****! I mean damn I know that there people as stupid never to be heared off Hitler. But that they are even so dumb and ignorant to say in the media their opinion, condemn a whole nation and everything while they don't know a **** about it. If there were people except for the jews ( and gays,....) it were the Poles. They were treated as building materials, slaves together with russian prisonners, wich would serve the Germans (The habitants of south Tirol who would get Lebensraum).
Sorry but this guy should really be a shamed of himself for the rest of his life.

Why is it always so that it is the opinion of the most ignorant always are the ones who get most attention? tsss...Humans :no:

Were Polish jokes started by Jews?

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Originally Posted by Kanamori

It is only a reflection of one's own ignorance to think they can label an entire populace.

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The irony of this statement is staggering.

I want just add
when I heard peoples telling about polish camps or
polish community helping germans I'm really angry.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

I want just add
when I heard peoples telling about polish camps or
polish community helping germans I'm really angry.

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Hopefully you mean you are angry at the Poles who did assist the Germans in their Final Solution.

I understand your wish to point out that there were honorable Poles who tried to help their Jewish neighbors and protect them from the Nazis.

You are right, there were.

But there were honorable people who tried to protect Jews in almost all of the countries controlled by the Nazis, including Germany itself.

And your posts overlook one very important detail:

Just as there were in other countries, there were also many Poles who were quite willing to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and help out with their lovely little genocidal program.

So your outrage in this instance is, IMHO, a little bit misplaced.

If my memory is true the Gypsies suffered, proportionally, as bad or worse than any other group.
Beside that point I think Goof summed it up. There were Poles who collaborated, there were Poles who fought back valiantly. The men and women of Warsaw will always be a tribute to all that is good in the world.



One more thing.

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I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

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:laugh4:
forgive the shot, it was too juicy.

Good spotting, JimBob.

Of course, in 50 years, precise qualification may matter...

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Hopefully you mean you are angry at the Poles who did assist the Germans in their Final Solution.

I understand your wish to point out that there were honorable Poles who tried to help their Jewish neighbors and protect them from the Nazis.

You are right, there were.

But there were honorable people who tried to protect Jews in almost all of the countries controlled by the Nazis, including Germany itself.

And your posts overlook one very important detail:

Just as there were in other countries, there were also many Poles who were quite willing to jump on the Nazi bandwagon and help out with their lovely little genocidal program.

So your outrage in this instance is, IMHO, a little bit misplaced.

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Goof you are correct, but it is especially hurtful for the Poles when they were in general treated worse than other occupied peoples (on par with the Russians and Ukranians), had a higher percentage of 'helpers' and a smaller percentage of collaborators.
So is it not particularly wrong when they are picked out as being the Nazi little brother? While the rest of us go free?

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Goof you are correct, but it is especially hurtful for the Poles when they were in general treated worse than other occupied peoples (on par with the Russians and Ukranians), had a higher percentage of 'helpers' and a smaller percentage of collaborators.
So is it not particularly wrong when they are picked out as being the Nazi little brother? While the rest of us go free?

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I'm not so sure about those claims. I am a fairly educated person, and my impression is that the Poles were one of the more enthusiastic nations when it came to anti-semitism. The Dutch and the Danes, on the other hand, stick out in my mind for having defied the German doctrine of murder based on race.

Having said that, I acknowledge that my opinions as stated are based on anecdote and a vague memory of what I have read on the subject. If you can provide any kind of data that supports the idea that the Poles actually had lower numbers of collaborators in relation to other occupied nations, then I would be willing to re-examine my views. But my gut feeling from all I know now is that the Poles were actually one of the worse nations when it came to the citizenry supporting the nazi policy of Jewish extermination.

I am still attempting to figure out how the American Education system gets mentioned in a thread about Poland wanting to change the name of a concentration camp.

:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Lars the American hater

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

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Actually you don't. What you have is second hand information from a relative. Typical hearsay evidence, it seems maybe your grandfather really didn't graduate from a high school in Boston, since upon graduation there would be no requirement to retake classes in Canada to acheive his high school graduation.

Now if he went to a Canadian College he might have had to take some additional classes that the Canadian Education system deemed necessary to ensure that American students had the equivelent learning experiences as Canadian Students.

You would be surprised how often this is done in almost every Education System when students transfer from one nation to the next.

Maybe you should learn how to probably spell and write proper sentences with the correct grammer before blasting away at the American Education system. Or as suggest learn before attempting to make blanket generalized statements that only make you look as foolish as the Polish for wanting to change the names of the concentration camps. (Well its a weak tie in to the subject, but one nevertheless.)

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I'm not so sure about those claims. I am a fairly educated person, and my impression is that the Poles were one of the more enthusiastic nations when it came to anti-semitism. The Dutch and the Danes, on the other hand, stick out in my mind for having defied the German doctrine of murder based on race.

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I'm not sure about the Danes, but your thoughts about us Dutch are off by a significant margin.
Over 100,000 Dutch jews were deported to concentration camps and killed. Percentage wise, more jews were killed from the Netherlands then any other occupied country except Poland.
There was a resistance movement of course, like in any occupied country, but it made little impression on the Nazis. The only real act of disobedience that sticks out is the February Strike, but that was only a sporadic outburst of general dissatisfaction with the occupying force, not so much an outcry against how jews were treated, if at all.

The polish have been a bit naughty in Jedwabne.

The only real act of disobedience that sticks out is the February Strike

Even wiesanthal himselve said we are way to hard on ourselves when it comes to WWII, just fashionable to say we were so wrong. February strike was quite unheard of.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Even wiesanthal himselve

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Who?

A thing like the Februari Strike was indeed unheard of, for Dutch standards at the time. It was a sporadic outburst, frenzied up by communists (praise be upon them, always among the first to rise up against the Germans). I challenge you to find any other act of disobedience towards the occupiers of a similar magnitude. Hint: you'll find none, because it didn't happen.

Our behavious in WW2 is nothing to be proud of, that said I wouldn't call it a black page in our history either.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Who?

A thing like the Februari Strike was indeed unheard of, for Dutch standards at the time. It was a sporadic outburst, frenzied up by communists (praise be upon them, always among the first to rise up against the Germans). I challenge you to find any other act of disobedience towards the occupiers of a similar magnitude. Hint: you'll find none, because it didn't happen.

Our behavious in WW2 is nothing to be proud of, that said I wouldn't call it a black page in our history either.

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Oh me spelled wrong.

I challenge you to find one other then that strike in the whole of europe, unheard of for european standards you mean. The Netherlands have helped thousands of german jews flee to the UK and the US in the thirties. And it is not surprising that a lot of our jews died, we just had so many of them. And don't forget that unlike Denmark, the germans took over the whole administration, the danish had all the time in the world to ship a handfull of jews (7000) to Sweden. I believe we also had the highest number survivers because of normal families giving them shelter, I could be wrong though. The jews certainly look more favourable upon us dutchies then we do ourselves, I guess self-loathing is da bomb nowadays.

Unheard of?

What about the Danish general strike in the summer of 44? And leading up to it was a number of smaller strikes. In the end the Germans were forced to cave in on certain points... that was unheard of.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Unheard of?

What about the Danish general strike in the summer of 44? And leading up to it was a number of smaller strikes. In the end the Germans were forced to cave in on certain points... that was unheard of.

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And something completily different. In 44 all the Danish jews were allready herding mooses in safety, this dutch strike was specifically against the deportation of jews.

Ah, but the way you mentioned it it came off as being the only general strike.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

German doctrine of murder based on race.

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:inquisitive: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Husar

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Originally Posted by Goofball

German doctrine of murder based on race.

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:inquisitive: :laugh4:

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I see nothing funny about the snippet you quoted. Please explain.

Goodfall
wanna proof - ok about collaborators.
during ww2 there were French, Walons, Netherlands, Norwegian, Ukrainian, Lethonian, Croatian and others legions of SS (part of Waffen SS) But there have never beer polish legion of SS. Germans tried to organise it but no one wanted join.

Jedwabne was black page into polish history, but it was one accident during war. Furthermore Poles never tried to hid that - even in communism.
In Poland Germans killed for helping Jew, but all society helped them. Many persons who were nationalist before war, helped Jews.

Now we are accused of racism but peoples who do it, forget about something. Most of these accusations is from USA and France. They ask Jews about polish racism, but they are doing mistake. They ask american Jews, but never polish Jews. Actually a year ago into "Le Figaro" there were article about polish racism. Conclusion of that article was - "Jews - be careful. Poland is full of skins, racists and no one try to stop it."
When journalists showed that article polish Jew community - they answer was simple - LIE.
And what happened a year later - into happy, tolerant France they burned some (thousand of ) cars.
Furthermore Frenchmen describing Poles as collaborators wanna clean their own history. During WW2 France was full of collabourators. After defeat in 1940 harly one supported De Gaule. Collaborators were not exepctions but they were in every part of society.
Check the fact - 4000 Jewish doctors was sent do camps during war. 800 of them was betrayed by French friends. Who did that- elite of society.

As a conclusion - when I'm reading about polish camps - I'm getting angry:wall: :wall: because someones head are like this wall:wall: :wall:

Krook, you lump an awful lot of facts, semi-facts and rubbish together that are not necessarily related.

Your main grievance seems to be: Ausswitsch is perceived to be a Polish camp just for being located in Poland, when in fact it was Nazi camp. Thus creating or perpetuating an unjustified view of Polish history during WWII.

Why not limit yourself to that? You may have some sort of point, even though I think you'll find you vastly underestimate the knowledge of WWII most people have.

Your case would benefit from refraining from gratuitous swipes at America, Jews and France. It would also benefit from not trying to claim that there is some sort of Jewish or French conspiracy to blemish Polish history in an effort to 'clean their own history'.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I see nothing funny about the snippet you quoted. Please explain.

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Compare these:

German doctrine of murder based on race.

Nazi doctrine of murder based on race.

Which is more accurate?

I didn't get what was so peculiar about Goofball's quote either. Maybe it was the percieved semantic lumping of 'German' and 'nazi' indeed.

However, nothing in Goofball's post implied he confused or even meant to equal the two. He clearly speaks of Germany during WWII, even mentioning nazi policy. To read more into it is unnecessary.

However that may be, IMO: Germany is not national-socialistic by nature. Rather, nazism was an aberration of German history. But, the reverse does hold true - that nazism was German by nature. German history was far from a 'long road to Ausschwitz'. Ausschwitz however was the result of German history.

One does not do justice to Germany to claim nazism was inevitable, and one does not do justice to history to claim nazism wasn't German.

People are to sensitive. The Holacuast happend it sucked but now its over. Theres no use holding it over peoples heads. Now we shouldnt forget it but having laws against say something agianst it is abouslutly absurd.

Strike, would you believe I actually consider you to be the most intelligent man on this board?

As always, with a few strokes of your mighty pen you have made decades of philosophical and historical enquiry obsolete, condemning entire libraries to the dustbin of history.

Learn to spell too, and I proclaim you God.

Youve just replaced the greatest Texan. IN TEH SIGG

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Originally Posted by lars573

I knew this might happen. I know full well what the US education system is like. My grandfather was brought up in Boston. He graduated high school there, then he came home and had to retake some courses as the ones earned in the US weren't worth the paper they were prnted on so to speak.

Hate is the wrong word, pity, agrevation, superiority, closed mindedness. Those are words I'd use to describe my attitude to the USA.

Also paying attention in history is the key. Do a poll and find out how many kids think that the civil war and the civil rights movement happened oncurrently.

And being that I obsorb as much of your mass media as I do I'll always feel perfectly within my rights to comment on anything that I percieve a wrong with your society or government or people. Bitch all you want, I spoken and will not change my mind.

P.S. I'm moderate too, you should hear my mom go on about ignorant americans.

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Your complete igonarnce shows nothing but a short sighted arrogance that Americans are dumb and somehow you are better. You been listneing to to much anti American propaganda. Im not saying all Americans are smart or even logical. Just remember who is the most poweful country on the planet we didnt get there by drawing straws.

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But there have never beer polish legion of SS. Germans tried to organise it but no one wanted join.

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Interesting. Do you have any sources on that attempted formation?

I know the Germans attempted to get Poles to guard the camps with little success, but I was under the impression that after seeing the fighting abilities of the Poles, the SS did not consider them worthy for anything other than menial labor.

Possibly toward the end of the war when they were forced to churn out substandard eastern legions it may have happened - I would certainly be interested in such an endevour.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

I know the Germans attempted to get Poles to guard the camps with little success, but I was under the impression that after seeing the fighting abilities of the Poles, the SS did not consider them worthy for anything other than menial labor.

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Oh, Poles can fight, alright, they just weren't very enthusiastic to fight for their oppressors who considered them sub-humans for slavery and extinction.

Not surprising, really. Just look at the struggle in Warsaw and the Nazi efforts to crush the poorly-armed, brave civilians of that city.

I was refering to the German mindset of the time. It is fairly obvious that a group defined as subhuman would not meet the qualifications of a nation's elite fighting force.

Of course, as I mentioned, towards the end of the war, the SS was a shadow of its former self, so it could very well be possible that the Germans sought a Polish legion.

I will keep my personal opinions of the poles as a people and their fighting abilities private. ~:)

Meh, when a bunch of people with 20 guns or so between them can hold off the German army in a ghetto for longer than it took the Germans to conquer the whole of Poland, I'd say they're decent.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Compare these:

German doctrine of murder based on race.

Nazi doctrine of murder based on race.

Which is more accurate?

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My hero.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Your complete igonarnce shows nothing but a short sighted arrogance that Americans are dumb and somehow you are better. You been listneing to to much anti American propaganda. Im not saying all Americans are smart or even logical. Just remember who is the most poweful country on the planet we didnt get there by drawing straws.

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I am better (but I'm better than most people of any persuastion), and you are dumb as a nation. Facts are facts, your education system sucks (and ours has started to slide becaue of you). And you got to be the most powerful country by buying the position from the UK. I blame the south, all the examples of ignoirant moronic americans I have involve southerners. A Texan and a South Carolinian.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

It would be fantastic if this thread could stay on topic - if anybody has the urge to discuss the US education system, please feel free to open a new thread dedicated to that topic.

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I'd like to quote myself for anybody who has problems with reading.

Any more attempts to pull this off-topic and/or turn this into a country bashing thread will be more than frowned upon.

nevermind

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Originally Posted by lars573

I am better (but I'm better than most people of any persuastion), and you are dumb as a nation. Facts are facts, your education system sucks (and ours has started to slide becaue of you). And you got to be the most powerful country by buying the position from the UK. I blame the south, all the examples of ignoirant moronic americans I have involve southerners. A Texan and a South Carolinian.

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I wonder how many warning points cost.

How much you got?

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Zitat von lars573

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To go very off-topic. German as the forum language Redleg? :inquisitive:

Or is the board fooling around?

And to be somewhat on topic, a search on google with "holocaust polish anti-semitism" seems to indicate that the current (percived? will only get English (American) sources) Polish anti-semitism has very little to with WWII directly but is of a later date.

I repeat guys - and I repeat it with sadness.

American sources are not impartial. Most of them base on facts or opinions from mid fourties and early fifties - from the middle of Cold War, when Poland was enemy of USA.
Anti-semitism rising - American Jews keep telling about that from last 50 years but polish Jews tell something else. Marek Edelman - leader of Ghetto Rising is not liked by American Jews, because some years ago he told that American sources are not impartial and some authors simply lie.

Auxillary units into German Army were part of SS. Actually not many pps know how big was SS. Nazist wanted organize polish legions to fight with Russians but no one wanted join.

"Nazist attemps Poles to guard camps" Some Poles were kapo but they had simply choice - be kapo or be dead. Poles were never full members of camps staff like Lethonians, Ukrainians or Croatians.

And something really sad - biologogical racism, demanding same things like nasism, has not been invented by Germans. Englishman did it.

As a conclusion I'm happy that (exept some strange educatet persons you)know that nazist camps were not polish camps. In our language adjective polski (polish) might mean not just "In Poland" but "owned by Poles". So I hope you understand my opinion about using "polish camps" words.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

To go very off-topic. German as the forum language Redleg? :inquisitive:

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Go right ahead. Your making assumptions that a non-German speaker could not figure out what is being stated.

Edit: Opps missed that one. Thanks Ser C

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And to be somewhat on topic, a search on google with "holocaust polish anti-semitism" seems to indicate that the current (percived? will only get English (American) sources) Polish anti-semitism has very little to with WWII directly but is of a later date.

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I would image you are correct. If I remember my history correctly, Poland had one of the larger concentration of Jews of most European countries prior to the war.

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Originally Posted by Krook

As a conclusion I'm happy that (exept some strange educatet persons you)know that nazist camps were not polish camps.

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I am pretty sure that the vast majority of people is aware who was running those camps in Poland - if there are people who misinterpret the term "Polish camps" in a way that they think that the camps were "owned" and run by the Polish people that would show quite a shocking gap of knowledge that would have much deeper roots than pure semantics

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Go right ahead. Your making assumptions that a non-German speaker could not figure out what is being stated. Kind of like the generalization of Lars.

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To avoid any miscommunications - Ironside was not referring to any contents of posts but to the
"Zitat von"
that preceded your quote from lars' post
instead of the usual
"Originally Posted by"
that appears if you have "English" in your forum language settings

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

To avoid any miscommunications - Ironside was not referring to any contents of posts but to the
"Zitat von"
that preceded your quote from lars' post
instead of the usual
"Originally Posted by"
that appears if you have "English" in your forum language settings

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Anyone have a device to remove a size 12 foot from my mouth.

:oops: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Interesting. Do you have any sources on that attempted formation?

I know the Germans attempted to get Poles to guard the camps with little success, but I was under the impression that after seeing the fighting abilities of the Poles, the SS did not consider them worthy for anything other than menial labor.

Possibly toward the end of the war when they were forced to churn out substandard eastern legions it may have happened - I would certainly be interested in such an endevour.

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I just have anecdotal evidence to offer. While stationed in Germany in the late 80's, I had a German girlfriend, Ushi (I was single then). Her mother, Hedwig, told me about and showed me photo's of Ushi's father, a Pole, in a SS uniform. She said that in early 1944, when they lived in Selisia, soldiers came to their door, and told Dad that he was in the Army (he was a portrait photographer, by trade), gave him uniforms, a rifle, and other gear.

He left with the other neighborhood men, outfitted the same. Hedwig packed what she could carry, and walked miles to a railhead, de-training finally in Goeppingen. They reunited in 1952, and had Ushi in 1956. We broke up before I left Germany.

Based on those photos & stories, I guess Polish SS did happen at least once.

You are right but you misunderstood me.
Telling that there were no polish legions in SS I meant There were no voluntery polish troops into SS.
For Germans people of Silesia were only Germans, no care what they were thinking about it. Thats why some of them has been forced to join German Army. Since 1943 (and some divisions died over Kursk :laugh4: ) SS recrutation was same like Wermacht. Thats why it could happen that Poles were in SS. Of course they could deny and choose 2nd option - Stuthoff (it was concentration camp in Prussia).
But we can't even compare that situation when you can join army or be killed by that army (if you got luck) with vuluntary joining SS Division.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

To avoid any miscommunications - Ironside was not referring to any contents of posts but to the
"Zitat von"
that preceded your quote from lars' post
instead of the usual
"Originally Posted by"
that appears if you have "English" in your forum language settings

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Thanks for reading my mind :bow:

(I think :sweatdrop: )

Seen Louis gotten "French quotes" before so I was a bit surpriced when that showed up. It indicated that not only have Redleg been reading German, hes serious enough to keep training it by haveing the forum language as German. ~:shock: :2thumbsup:

Anyway, Redleg has either changed it back to English or it looks like the drunken thread is affecting the board too much, as the last qoutes is going back too English again. :dizzy2: .
And to give some really useless info: It seems that when being in the window were you post a responce, all quotes shows up as "English quotes".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Anyway, Redleg has either changed it back to English or it looks like the drunken thread is affecting the board too much, as the last qoutes is going back too English again. :dizzy2: .
And to give some really useless info: It seems that when being in the window were you post a responce, all quotes shows up as "English quotes".

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Haven't changed a thing. Must be the druken thread effecting not only the language but the reading abilities of many of us.

:oops:

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Originally Posted by lars573

I am better (but I'm better than most people of any persuastion), and you are dumb as a nation. Facts are facts, your education system sucks (and ours has started to slide becaue of you). And you got to be the most powerful country by buying the position from the UK. I blame the south, all the examples of ignoirant moronic americans I have involve southerners. A Texan and a South Carolinian.

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Well I feel sorry for you. For someone who cant spell you sure do have a warped sense of the word better. Your jelasouy completly clouds your judgement you meet two people out of a nation of 300 million and you make a decison. Thats is .0000000000001% of the population. Im so glad you are not the typical happy Canadian I love. Not to mention I fail to see how we "bought" anyhting.