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What is the purpose of prison? Should it just deprive liberty? Should it be a brutal place? Should it vary depending on the severity of the crime?
Should juveniles be put in adult prison?
Came across this report after watching a film called Animal Factory:
Report on Rape in US Prisons
Should 16 year olds who have committed minor offences be frequently raped? What duty of care does the prison system owe prisoners?
All prisoners should be in solitary confinement. There should be NO mingling. They should be restricted to their cells and have little access to anything else for the duration of their stay.
That would help. Of course, knowing that I would be butt-raped had certainly kept me from enaging in my more violent fantasies as an aggressive youth in the past.
Again, the central question one must ask about any prison system is: Are you going to let them out again?
If a state uses prison to punish, but intends that any prisoners thus committed will be released at some point, it has a moral duty to its citizens to strive towards rehabilitating those prisoners effectively. Allowing any brutalisation, however pleasing to the average populist, ignores the fact that releasing brutalised people back into the community will only perpetuate and increase violence and law-breaking.
The only other option to incredibly expensive rehabilitation and support programmes to break the cycle of re-offending (and acceptance that some will not respond) is to lock virtually every prisoner up for ever, no matter what their crime. Then you can leave them to their own devices, and you will still get a big bill, but this time for security measures to control desperate men and women.
So, the question to ask yourselves is: When he comes back out and sets up home near my family, do I want as a neighbour an emotionless thug who has been raped beyond human endurance, having learned to survive by the lowest of human instincts?
:inquisitive:
I agree with DA. Ironic as it may seem, somebody in for assault doesn't deserve to be brutalized and raped.
It depends. Do you want a prison to be punishment, or rehabilitation ? Or a little of both ?
I personally feel prisons should at least provide basic human "rights": food, water, a bed, reasonable climate conditions, and the security of not getting butt-raped. A distinction should be made based on the type of crime: a young shoplifter might just need some discipline and possibly some education to put him back on the right track, while a recidivist child molester should imo never be released again. The type of prison you put them in should reflect the different needs.
Making prison about punishment might seem like the thing to do in the heat of the moment, but it isn't the civilized thing to do. It certainly doesn't fit with my Christian upbringing. I don't believe prisons should be luxury resorts where all prisoners just play PlayStation all day, they should have order in their life again, and if possible, a purpose such as a job or an education they can focus on.
Furthermore, if you're going to release prisoners again, I think it is important to give them a chance in the real world again. For this reason prisoners should be employed for various things. Cleaning roads, basic manufacturing, repairs, etc. preferably public services so they don't compete with private companies. A part of the money they earn should go to them, as a sort of savings account. This money could be used by them to get back on their feet after they get released.
Youth punishment is a difficult issue. I think if the crime is bad enough (violent crimes like murder or rape, or second offences), they should be judged like adults.
Believe it or not, Idaho, even heartless conservatives like myself actually have big issues with the American prison system. It's not just youths either. We don't segregate based on the violence of the offense you're going away for anymore. We try to, but prisons are so overcrowded, some punk selling grass at the local university is going to be labelled 'drug-dealer' and go to a maximum security prison (translation, bring the vaseline).
It took something like 8 months for the inmates to get their hands on Jeffrey Dahmer and beat him to death, in the middle of a rec room mind you, with mops and brooms and nobody, guards included, saw a thing. If anybody deserved that fate, that POS did, but my point is, if that can happen to somebody so notorious, it can happen to anybody that the powers that be in prison decide it should happen to. And let me tell you folks, the powers that be aren't the wardens.
We have a duty and a responsibility that when we incarcerate somebody, we MUST guarantee their safety. Their well-being (socialization, recreation the like) is a great goal, but as long as you cannot guarantee that somebody won't be forcibly sodomized in their 5 year prison stint, you have no right to put them there.
Of all the Leftist issues out there, prison reform would be the one that rings the most true with me. Its one of the few government programs that actually REALLY does need more spending.
Personally, I would make about 4 or 5 'reservations', in the middle of Alaska, Montana, and other remote areas. You have to fly to get there, there's not even a train for 50 miles....I'd have everyone sealed into individual pods and bring to them what was necessary. Think Pelican Bay (which, despite it's flaws, is actually very safe for the inmates, and they clam they've never had a rape).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
Well I think they should seperate the two prisons. Juveniles in one group and adults in an other. The only problem is that 'Juvy' is more strict I think. They should just have them be equal, but still seperate. The raping part, is just plain...:shame:
It's not a simple matter of just isolating populations: juvy on one side and adults on the other. Don't forget, that 16 year old did something to get themselves landed in prison. He's going to show up to juvy and if he's the oldest and the stronges, treat the other kids the way he would have been treated in adult prison, which was why the probation officer decided to send him to adult prison, more than likely. It really requires total confinement and isolation.
It would be impossibly costly, but if they had a prison for every age group. Like every two years they move up to the next set.:inquisitive:
Foucaults Surveiller et punir has some good comments on the prison system. Especially I like Foucaults attention to detail and that by telling a seemingly unimportant story, he traces a line through history explaining different methods of punishment.
When you did a crime, in earlier time, the punishment was often physical, lashes, decapitation or others such things. However, in the 19th century, Foucault explains, punishments began focusing on the internal instead of the external, meaning the soul got punished now not the body. In the wake of this change an elaborate prison system was created. However, as Foucault points out, the prison system doesnt work well as a deterrent nor as an effective way of punishing, many inmates regurarly comes back again for another round. As a deterrent the prison obviously doesnt work well, to cite a current example. In danish law, our rightwing government has recently increased the sentences for assaults (especially serious assaults). That would - by the reasoning behind prison as a deterrent mean, that serious assault would drop - that's not the case, since the increase in punishment the crime rates in serious crimes has been climbing paying no attention to the longer punishments.
Punishments in modern society reflects the crime, in terms of days to be in prison. Apparently, it would seem, criminals, when conducting the crime, has different approaches: 1) the crime is spontaneous, no attention is payed to punishment, only the current crime is in focus, it would be done no matter if death penalty was the consequence. 2) the criminal makes a qualified guestimate and reasons that the potential win of the crime is bigger than the punishment (this case can be affected to higher punishments, however, few criminals are shrewd like this one) and 3) the crime is psychologically motivated, meaning the criminal has a disorder, disease or has 'a bad childhood' etc, so that it is really no longer a choice but rather something that draws him to do the crime (often violence, rape etc).
Im sure more general categories can be highlighted, but these are basic, and only 2 can be adjusted by higher penalties, and I am sure that the second category is the lesser one of all criminals.
So, prisons should be a place for rehabilitation, however, I do not agree with some of the modern prisons with too much luxury, it should still be remembered as a bad place (other than depriving freedom) and it should work as a deterrent as much as it can. Recognizing my previous comments, it is clear that more is needed. A change of life in society, better education, public healthcare (psychologists, pedagogues, social workers etc) and other elements to work preventive, basically I think a lot of crime is proportional to the average living standard of a society, if we better that we lower the crimes in a good, sensible and permanent way.
The trouble with making prison a bad place is that it creates a class of brutalised, and hence brutal people who are on a revolving door from prison to society.
i belive that the function of a prison is primarily to attempt to rehabilitate the imprisoned into open population, or in extreme cases isolate dangerous people from society, however that means that prisons should be as nice as possible and have emphasis on improving those within them, not persecuting them...
sos if im repeating whats been said above but it was a lot of writing ^^
Tricky subject, on one hand we need to punish those who commit crimes, but on the other we need to rehabilitate them so they don't commit more crimes. I think we should spend more helping them, and more on security inside the prisons. Under no circumstances should we have children in adult prisons. We also should not no matter the crime have children tryed as adults and given adult sentences, their children and they don't completely understand what they've done. Some high crimes like murder though, we should not bother with rehabilitation, instead we should lock them up and throw away the key, or better yet send them to the chamber. As for those who commit rapes, molestation and other such sex related crimes, I purpose that we lock them in a cell with Bubba,
https://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e...mure/Bubba.jpg
Meet Bubba. Bubba wants you.:shocked:
There's already rules that set how prisons should be, I think in most countries, and for what I know they've the right idea. The only punishment that offenders should receive is taking away one of their "goods", those that the average man will certainly care to conserve, the first three in my list would be: freedom, life and money. But life is away because I don't like executions. So the only purpose of jail time is to be deprived from freedom, in the best conditions that can be provided for a minimum part of the budget, as there's a lot of more important things to do. There's certain things to respect at all costs: dangerous offenders could be in the same prison, but not in the same room with other lesser offenders. The guards should show that they serve at least a legal purpose and respect the laws. No prisoner should be tortured, by the guards or other prisoners. The place should be in healthy conditions, cleaned every day, walls in their place, etc.
Many of those who are serving could be innocents, so everyone should be protected from any unnecesary danger (not that the guilty should suffer, of course).
I don't even see a debate here.
Does anybody think that prisoners should be allowed to socialize at all when safety cannot be guaranteed?
Regardless of age, there can be no violence if there is NO contact, not in showers, rec areas, no cafeterias, etc. Each inmate must have their food brought to them. Each inmate must wash themselves via bucket, soap, and washcloth (A drain would be in every cell). No TV. No talking to each other, since cells would be mostly sound proof. No personal recreation. If a focus on rehabilitation is appropriate, then individual skills training could occur within the cell.
Don't put words in my mouth, I have enough in there already ;) Im not saying it should be a bad place, but it shouldnt be a good one either. Limiting freedom seems to be the most important task along with bettering and rehabilitating the inmates. Therefore I oppose unrestricted access to internet, communications and television, however, some access should be granted. Prison should represent neutrality and nothing more or less, better or worse. Best would be to get rid of it, but untill some better alternative arises it should be kept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
So in sintesis you want them to become mad...:laugh4:. I don't agree with you, I think they should have at least human contact. Why taking that away, are you the mother Teresa? From friends, family, wife, girlfriend...And not human too, why not a pet? I don't like the concept of rehabilitation, but if you like it, then in this way your obstricting it, not enforcing it. Human contact is basic in rehabilitation. The boldest programs in such road talk about massive reunions of the inmates with psicologists and other experts to help them in their rehabilitation process. That's common activities, learning jobs, to socialize. The point of rehabilitation is that when they come out of prison they can mix themselves with the rest of society again, not be isolated as they were, even when most probably, if you're a well known criminal, most likely a murderer, you will not be accepted by the moral majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
I think Prisons should be work oriented.Hard labour from morning to evening.Inmates should get deacent food and deacent sleep.But other then that.Work,Work and more work.
The problem with prisons is what it does to people who are only scentenced for a period of months to a few years. They end up coming back into society sodomized, brutal and in most cases severely mentally damaged.
Its not a bad idea, keep them locked in seperate cells, then take the out to eat and work. It would certainly stop sodomization, and the disciplined environment is a form of rehabilitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
I think Prisons should be work oriented.Hard labour from morning to evening.Inmates should get deacent food and deacent sleep.But other then that.Work,Work and more work.
Hmm; depending on the crime I think a few deserve to be put with bubba:help: But most should be kept safe from bubba and corrupt guards but....rapist murderers etc
I think that prison should such a terrible place that you never want to go back. But some kid who took daddy's car for a joy ride should not need to be raped.
No one should have to be raped. Most prisons are awful places. A drastic change is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar010
A society gets what it sows. If a society opts for harsh conditions to punish law breakers, and casts them together (regardless of their level of commitment to crime, or degree of inhumanity to man in a committed act, or even their degree of guilt in an incident) then they ought not to expect explemplerary citizens to return from hell and act like angels.
What the past has shown is that first time prisoners given maximum sentances tend to return to society embittered, and more often re-enforced that their action against society was a correct judgement in the first place - it will also be reenforced by those there (whether they agree or not - they got a new convert). Since, they were being held back by forces in the society that forced them to commit the crime (for survival) in the first place...addon the treatment of our prison system ... and voila ... a perfect criminal.
Today, we have a 67% recidivism rate - first year of release; 97% overall (97% will return to the penal system by year 3 of their release). We have improved exactly 0% overall in 30 years. Difference is today, it costs us $30-35,000 per prisoner to keep them enturned. We could be sending all these people to Harvard or Yale - then we just get white collar crime (like Cheney and Rumsfeld).
Point is, lumping crime and criminals together is unproductive and a waste of resources. Certainly there are career criminals, but they just get better at their craft by our inability to catagorize and clarrify our penal system. Tossing first time offenders into the same pens as habituals is like sending a "bad" dog to play with other bad dogs - he learns nothing and comes away worse than he was before.
Education is the only key. Enforce it on them, by taking time off their sentance or by extending it if they do not comply.
As for the "date rape" in prison - open up the laws to allow congical (ms) visits, regardless of marital status. And, take the offenders to a real hole - some prison that they can all reside and b-f one another in.
Real enforcement of social law does not mean persecuting those that will see the light of society again, but reconditioning them to the laws of the society so that they can have the opportunity to be a part of it. To simply ask for punishment against those that break the law (regardless of the act, say possession of an ounce of MJ, versus holding up a liquor store, bank etc - and the 3 strikes your out laws really means kill everyone if you have 2 strikes) is self defeating in any attempt to curtail crime.
Some like to point out that crime is down ..... for this, that, or another thing - meaning that our penal system must be working. Right. Only, we have 1% of our populace in it .... 3.5 million people. How is that working? And, it is growing daily.
Thing is, a society gets what it sows.
:balloon2:
Although not entirely without merit, I think there are three problems with the solitary confinement approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Firstly it would be impractically expensive. The amount of staff and cell space required to keep everyone in their cells would be huge.
Secondly I am not sure if it would do much good psychologically - although I am prepared to have my mind changed on this.
Thirdly, and most importantly though; I think that this process would make the prisoners dependent and institutionalised. I think prison should, for 90% of cases - be looking forward to release and what kind of person is being released.
Along the lines of the rape issue. The guards have to be held a hell of alot more acountable as it seems (at least in the report) that they are the "enablers". Reforming the men who work and run these prisons would go a long way.
the problem usually is that they're underpaid and hance, often not qualified for the job they are supposed to do. If you want better guards, you' ve got to pay. Politicians don't believe they can sell that to the people who believe they will never meet Bubba...Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
very trueQuote:
Originally Posted by doc_bean
The problem is, that would be compared to a gulag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagemusha
Also, the thing about prison is, if you're just a petty thief in prison, all you'll do is get influenced by others who commit crimes. A priest I know told me that he talked to someone who stayed in prison for a month for burglary. When asked if he was a changed man, he replied that he wasn't. All prison did for him was teach him how to be a better burglar (tips from other inmates).
Permanent solitary confinement has been tried and was pretty much a total failure- read up on Eastern State Penitentiary. I think prison needs to be hard- very hard. This obviously serves as a deterrent, but as an added benefit, it helps keep costs down. They don't need air conditioning, cable TV, tasty meals, ect. A good example might be Maricopa county, Arizona where inmates are housed and fed in a 'tent city' in the desert for only a couple dollars a day. In addition, it's also important that prisoners do have an opportunity to learn something- if they're willing to do so. I think prisons should provide opportunities for inmates to earn their GEDs or even a HS diploma along with some basic vo-tech type job skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho
The entire judicial system in the US is in desperate need of a revamp (cost is ridiculous and the quality of life and rehabilitation is a joke), and I can t imagine it is much better in most other countries. But as to what prison should be like, for serious crimes IMO inmates should be consistently separated but provided with their basic needs. I would even allow some forms of entertainment, approved books, educational TV, some writing and art supplies but that is about it. Very little rehabilitation with a lot of punishment. But much shorter sentences and with parole alternatives that are far more constricting, that’s where the rehabilitation comes in, the prison time should be the punishment and parole should be the rehabilitation (obviously there needs to be some programs and more parole officers and other support personnel).
For less serious crimes or in a jail (rather than prison) situation I would like to see work being done, roadside trash removal, ditch digging, and there is always a farmer’s field that needs stones removed. Shorter sentences, harsher environments and repeat offenders (like 3 strikes rule) get sent to actual prison. Repeat offenders (like 3 strikes rule) to prison should get a death sentence.
I think it would also be extremely beneficial to see a “get a new live” program where inmates get a chance to relocate after their prison time is finished. This could help eliminate some of the issues with someone getting out and going back to their same old ways in the same old places with the same old friends.
The fact that there are so many crimes committed in prison is a shame. Murder and Rape, in or out of prison should be a crime punishable by death.
One method of crime prevention was you had to look your community in the face when you got out of jail.
The usual response is that the criminals get a state funded new life, whereas the victims get put right back to where they were.
A couple have their house burnt to the ground. OK, their fault they don't have insurance. So they have to scrape by whilst the arsonist gets removed so somewhere else in case it's too nasty having to see the people who'se lives were wrecked. Given a job? Better in case he get's itchy fingers again. Oh, and a house, etc etc.
I believe more should be spent on the victim's support.
The fact that so many crimes occur in prison is that there are a (we hope) a significant concentration of violent people. Yes you can kill with a toothbrush, and in prisons I imagine some do. Have each inmate with two guards in case they try something?
Part of prison should be that they can see what a world with criminals in would be like. Rather like one person's description of heaven and hell:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Unduely protecting prisoners is to take responsibility out of prisoner's lives. Sure, the guilty can be punished, and if they can not be trusted to not kill their fellow prisoners I don't think they are ready for release - no one will be there next time they can't control their temper.
For the ones that repeatedly fail to reform into something that society can accept there should be colony islands to place them on if the death penalty is so repugnant (I never understand why killing 100 innocents by failing to act is worse than killing 1 by acting).
~:smoking:
PrisonRehab
prisonpunishment
Single cell, swarming with well-armed guards, all prisons maximum security, single cells, only occasionally meet with other inmates. Prisoners punished for things they do wrong in prison by cutting food rations, etc. "Dangerous" inmates (eg. murderers) are kept in solitary confinement until the end of the sentence.
I'm harsh that way. ~:cool:
Before I decide what prison should be like, I think I will try and decide what type of people I would like to come out of prison.
Career criminal training is not what I want to see happening with prison.
I would like to see productive citizens come out of prison.
If this is done by living in spartan
or monk like conditions in solitary confinement
or if it is done by regular meetings with a shrink
or by blaming society until they vent it all out and realise that they are part of society
or by blaming mommy and daddy
or by having cups of tea with Jag...
I don't mind how it is done as long as we don't brutalise them and create something worse then went in there.
As a individual who spent time in prison has told me - the more the prison will focus on teaching the individual a real job skill, and teaching them the three R's that they refused to do when they were in school, the greater chance that individual has of being successful once they leave prison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
This individual also would recommend a little more privation of modern convience, such as Television.
But then again he only spent 5 years in one of the roughest prisons in the United States. The Oklahoma State Pen, in Macallister.
Lock them in a room with one of the following three guys.
http://www.moviemaze-wallpaper.de/59...aper-2-800.jpg
http://www.michael-jackson.com/mj2002.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/3/4379610_2610fcffaa.jpg
Hell, the second guy is even creepier than Mike. Who is he Capo?:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
This thread and that website make me very uncomfortable, very angry. It's shameful that wer send nonviolent drug offenders to these prison in a drug war that is unwinnable and never changes, just as its shameful that private prison companies spend millions lobbying for mandatory minimums for drug offenses. Meanwhile, people who financially pilfer the lives of others through blue collar crimes arent sent to live with the rapists and the killers, they are sent to summer camp
The US Prison System, and the War on Drugs, is yet another example of how the Baby Boomers failed their kids. This is a mistake that is so bad, so deep, that fixing it is going to take a long time, and will only be facilitated by someone in government with balls, someone who is a true believer.
It's easy to turn ones head and pretend its not a problem, especially if in ones cozy little world none of this effects one.
The fact that crap like that goes on in prison is more a lack of concern on the part of staff/guards than an inability to prevent it. Doing a little reading around it seems the prevailing attitude there is "if you can't fight back don't come crying to us you deserved it".
It seems only in prison is it acceptable to tell a rape victim "too bad next time fight better". If they started prosecuting every single incident of violence in prison the same way they did on the outside this would become a lot less common. If there is a 90% chance of getting another 10+ years added to someone's sentence chances are they won't risk it.
New prisons also need to be designed in such a way that all areas are observable by guards, and those areas where inmates are allowed to congregate have 24/7 video recording as well.
It looks like as it stands now, if you go to certain prisons for really no matter how much time you'll either come out a savage much better at doing the things that got you put there than you were before you entered, or a traumatized victim with unimaginable demons repressed just waiting to blow up on society.
The idea of prison is to take a set amount of years from someone's life. Rehabilitation and education is fine and all, but if their time spend with a lovesick bubba is nasty enough they will do anything not to get there again. If they do anyway they are probably unfit for society and are exactly where they belong. Some people just can't be helped.
Not all criminal acts are antisocial. This means you are thowing in good and productive citizens and members of society into prison where they may have to fight armed prisoners or get raped numerous times, maybe acquiring a death sentence in AIDS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If I thought I'd have to have cups of tea with Jag if I went into jail I'd be a Model Citizen... :laugh4:
~:smoking:
Prison worsens a person's personality.
It seems to me prison should be for punishment for the offender, for deterance for everyone else, and for rehabilitation of the offender.
Not all of those will in fact be acheived in every case, but those are surely the aims. We shouldn't prioritise any one to the exclusion of the others (sorry JAG)
What is clear is being anally raped isn't acceptable under any of those grounds. I don't really understand (well, I do,) how its possible to have an environment which is in principle so controled, and where in practice its the law of the jungle so long as no one is stupid enough to have a crack at a warden.
Bottom line is that the imprisoning authorities should be responsible for a safe environment in jail, or, as DC says, they have no business sending anyione there. Why don't the victims sue? We'd see some increased spending on CCTV and wardens after a few multimillion dollar payouts.
Edit: Oh yes, and medicalising rather than criminalising drug addiction would be a good idea..
Garry Glitter, famous British rocker who is imprisoned in Singapore for Child Molestation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
The question - can we harness them as military manpower?
:idea2:
:idea2: Why not? And then send them like cannon fodder.:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
Great men of the United States Republic, you are here to prove that you are men. The Forces of our enemy are great indeed, but they have only numbers, you have the courage and the will to overcome them, not to mention the superior equipment. Our new motto is "not one step back", one man shall recieve a rifle, the other a clip, when the man in front of you loses his rifle you take it and continue foreward. Retreat will result in your death as a traitor to our great state, victory or death will result in your name being heralded for generations to come. Which one will you choose? Fight a man, or die a coward? You have been sent here to prove that you are of more use than recieving anal rape in the American Prison System. Now Fight for Glory and Honor!
-Komissar Wakizashi, June 23rd 2022
The Assault on Duchiestan.
Ironically in view of his legal difficulties, Gary Glitter is also cockney rhyming slang for...well, a part of the body that Gary himself allegedly enjoys although not in the way God intended... (Clue: you need your Gary to do a Richard)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
This message brought to you by the London Tourist Agency.
Penal legions... there's an idea.
I think that suicidal missions are not required. There are enough bad ones already. E.G. mine clearance.
And they've got a choice: listen to the teacher, or in 1 month's time they are going to Cambodia/Afghanistan/wherever trained or not. They have a quota of mines to safely diffuse and then their tour is done. The number of mines depends on the crime of course.
Other tasks like lugging aid to dangerous areas could be given. Say a 5 man team with one soldier overseeing.
The best can afterwards join the army proper, or possibly be pointed to wards a mercenary outfit. They are violent people. No point in pretending otherwise, so use the skills.
~:smoking:
That's a reasonable summation of the intent of prison. However does it really map with reality? Like the war on drugs, have we simply run out of ideas so just go back to the same old format.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
As a punishment they probably do work - they aren't nice places.
As a deterrant - prison population is increasing. Rate of re-offending is high - so obviously not a success. Ditto rehabilitation.
This doesn't follow, since you don't know how many crimes would have been committed but for the threat of prison.Quote:
As a deterrant - prison population is increasing. Rate of re-offending is high - so obviously not a success.
You are clearly right on rehab though. This needs some serious thought. In my completely uninformed opinion, rehab that focuses on skillls isn't really goign to work. I don't believe anyone commits crimes because they didn't pass their maths GSCE or haven't got a level 3 NVQ in motorcycle maintenance. After all, opportunities to take those exams exist outside prison. IMHO people commit crimes because they have poor organisational skills, so can't hold a job or a training course down, or poor impulse control, so they can't resist a punch up. and because they have the opportunity and the downside isn't that bad (in the UK anyway, where repeated anal rape is not a major part of the prison experience).
I wonder whether, with no disrespect to JASG, a lot of the talk about rehab is cobblers, and what is really needed is to up the detection rate and speed of processing therough the courts. I suspect a lot of criminals are perfectly capable of making fairly rational choices, and if it was more or less guaranteed that every mugging would be followed by an arrest within 48 hours, sentence within a week, and a mere two weeks behind bars, then release and repeat as necessary, pretty soon they would get the message.
Whereas allowing people a run of months or years at muggings, eventually catching them, taking six months to bring it to trial (during which they do mor muggings, after all those are effectively free since you can have them dealt with at the trial as TICs), then sending them down for a year, sends no sort of message.
You can't use that in a debate! How about my magic crime stopping apple sat by me on my desk. Had I eaten it yesterday, whose to say how many crimes might have not been stopped?Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Course you can! it's called uncertainty. Ignoring it is what is stupid. And unlike your example with the apple,. people could be swayed by a threat of prison, and it may be possible to attempt to quantify this.
~:smoking:
I agree with you in principle, but have some conceptual problems with that. Deterance and rehabilitation are clear but what exactly is punishment and what is it for? I reject the notion of some metaphysical "guilt" that has to be redeemed by inflicting aversive situations on humans. In a progressive society punishment has to be justified in a social-engineering view.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Theoretically, punishment by prison serves four purposes:
General prevention - people are deterred from breaking the law by the fact that they would receive punishment.
Individual prevention - by punishing anti-social behavior a pro-social learning process should be induced in the offender
Exclusion - while locked up, offenders can't harm society any further
Order of Law - the authority of the law must be integrated part of society, so that it is part of culture that acts against the law have repercussion
All those purposes can be grouped in the first two. The third is exactly what you don't like (and I either for that matter) but some judges do: "retribution".Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Saturnus
For those that can't join in the "pro learning" camp a more basic line is useful: you screw up, we wreck your life.
I dog understands right from wrong, and learns if required from a quick whack when is naughty. if people want to act like animals, then there comes a point where they should be treated like them.
Yes, I know we're such wonderful "progressive societies". after all, we even send people overseas to be tortured - how progressive is that? :thumbsup:
It is all a thin veneer over thousands of years of evolution. People that repeatedly act as though the veneer has been removed should be treated as such.
~:smoking:
No it isn't. Retribution is an emotional response. Exclusion is purely functional. While a person is in prison he or she can technically not reoffend (with exceptions). Thus excluding people who are prone to harm society is a means to protect society. This has nothing to do with retribution, it could rather be compared to quarantine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
There is no veneer of evolution, at least if you look at evolution of genes and memes. But I understand your reasoning. I understand it but reject it, because I do not think that it is beneficial for society. What would we gain from treating criminals like they treat others? You cannot discourage violent behavior by being violent. Our society would only become more martial, rather decreasing our safety.Quote:
It is all a thin veneer over thousands of years of evolution. People that repeatedly act as though the veneer has been removed should be treated as such.
stop incarceration by stopping crime, stop crime by stopping criminals, stop criminals when they are young, junior high or highschool preferably, take a little looky looky into the permenant records and see who the most likely trouble makers are, identify there problem as best as possible (no father, terrible living conditions, drunkard/workoholic parents) and try to remedy these as quick as possible sparing no expence, if they still end up bad then do this.
*drug users put into forced rehab and cover arms in rubber cement (unpeircable by needles:2thumbsup: )
*rapists you put in jail solitary confindment with no human contact except sensativity training, and when they leave tattoo a large green R on there forearm indicating rapist, if they do it again immediat life imprisonment.
*child molestation: immediate and indiscriminatory deportation:furious3:
*murder 2 goes to prisons not unlike those today but more heavily guarded, and more punishment for misbehaving (less recration time, cut rations) and once again the blue M, for murder, second offence is death.
*murder one is to be put into immediate solitary confindment and to be given no human contact or sympathy for the first 3 years then given 1-3 hours recreation time and asttemp to teach them a skill., still no inmate contact. when they leave jail administer the red M, to do it again is death.
what can i say, if it were really up to me i would give unto them all the pain that they gave there victim, but thast would be torture, not that they don't deserve torture, but i have to make this at least a little socially acceptable.
but really just torture the f***in c***-sucking b****es.
Nice rehab schpiel.
First a tremendous breach in personal liberties with datamining the individual's past.
Second, what if the parents refuse?
Third, expense. The money has to come from somewhere and to be seen to be doing some good. Else the "I'll mis-behave to get more attention / free holiday"
Drug users inject into all viens. Then tissue. Then sometimes even the eyeballs.
Child molesters deport where? Vietnam?? :laugh4:
But nice to hear otherwise your views are restrained...
~:smoking:
I'm sure that he will get a few wood shampoos from the guards every day!(hopefully) It's when they thump you over the head with their baton:2thumbsup:
I am pro death penalty but not for this guy, they need to keep him alive and make life hell for em'.