My Saudi Students

These days I am amused but disappointed in the stereotypes perpetuated by Westerners talking about people of the Middle East. The words they use are charged with emotions, political/religious viewpoints, and, most importantly, ignorance. Words and phrases like, Islamist, terrorist, backward, veils, close-minded, hatred, and suicidal dot every discussion about Muslims or the Middle East.

Being a teacher of students from Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Kuwait, and other nations of the faith and region, I get to meet the very people that are so slandered and disparaged.

My Saudi students don't, in any way, resemble the worst negative stereotypes I hear.

Religious
They certainly are religious. It's amazing to me that Christians are admired when they are pious, but Muslims get less respect as being "fundamentalist" and following faith blindly. In actuality, one should admire their devotion to their god, which is, after all, the same god that Jews and Christians follow. A substantial number of Christians don't even go to church once a week, let alone pray five times a day.

Every day, five times a day, the Muslim students in my school wash their hands, feet, and faces, find an empty classroom (usually mine), put down a rug, turn towards Mecca and pray together. A husband and wife pray at a separate time and room.

This selfless activity touches me. While the rest of us are out satisfying our hungry stomachs, they take the time to pray patiently in a communal way before eating.

Sexism
We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

I have assigned essays about a variety of political topics about women and almost all the men support women's rights and equality.

Politeness
You'll never meet anyone more polite than Saudis. They run neck-and-neck with Japanese and Koreans. The always speak respectfully and do little things, like insist elders walk through a door first and do a small knock on the door jam when they enter a room. Each morning they meet us with bright greetings and warm smiles.

Ten years ago, most of the Saudis did not extend as much politeness to the female faculty as the men. But this is now no longer the case.

Things have been changing in the last few years. The new generations are not the image of their grandparents. King Abdullah, far more liberal than his predecessors, is promoting the opening of Saudi students' minds, sponsoring the students at my school to study English in many nations all over the world.

While even the brightest students will sometimes say something that shows a religious contrast to modern science (that humans are not animals for instance), we have had wonderful poltical and social discussions with the European, Asian, and South American students that had great insights and compassion for humanity.

So, while wild-eyed, West-hating, fundamentalist youth that bomb city streets get all the press, remember that they do not represent their fellow countrymen or other Muslims any more than the people who assassinate abortion doctors and bomb government buildings in Oklahoma in the US represent Americans.

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We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

I have assigned essays about a variety of political topics about women and almost all the men support women's rights and equality.

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All the men where? All your male students? Or all male Saudis?

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Sexism
We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

I have assigned essays about a variety of political topics about women and almost all the men support women's rights and equality.

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But how do they threat women in practice ? My girlfriend works with a couple of Iranians in her lab and she says they just won't listen to the advice of women. The only way you can get them to pay attention to what you say is to suggest that a male professor has suggested it.

Good post Tachi, every Arab I've ever met were nice and pleasent. Every society has their share of jerks. Still the nicest folks to me are Koreans.

I prefer the term "boomski".


That's a joke.



Seriously though, I agree with the intent of this post. It is sad. But it is even sadder that mainstream muslim organizations refuse to condemn terrorist acts.


Here's a funny story: A family friend of mine is Jewish and was recently divorced. He dated an Iranian-American shortly after. Until she stated that Israel should be destroyed and that Jews are evil, except for him. He found that just a little awkward.

I feel bad for the majority of Muslims who are victimized by their own people who perpetrate stereotypical behavior.

I also feel bad for black people who are victimized by their own ethnic members who embrace stereotypical black urban culture.

And Republicans who are racist white trash also piss me off, because they make the rest of republicans look like trash.


I have no prob with ethnicity. White, black, brown, yellow, it matters not. We all bleed green. It's culture that defines us, and that is a matter of nurture, not nature. Racists of any color make me sick to my stomach. They are truly misguided evil SOBs.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Seriously though, I agree with the intent of this post. It is sad. But it is even sadder that mainstream muslim organizations refuse to condemn terrorist acts.

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I can actually get you a list of hundreds of Muslim organizations, from liberal, to orthodox, and even the radical, that condemned terrorist attacks. I can get you hundreds of statements from Muslims, from Orthodox clerics to the ordinary Abdullah that condemn terrorist attacks. Or you could google it. www.google.com ~;)

Well, I would be interested in riots protesting terrorist attacks.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Well, I would be interested in riots protesting terrorist attacks.

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Well, I'm sure they would be interested in riots protesting the civilian deaths in their countries due to our bombs... :yes:

After all, most of the war protests are small (opposition to it is large) and focus on getting our troops out of there...

I would be even more interested in them turning on their own extremists and engaging in a civil war to purge themselves of their cancer. :balloon2:

Civil War? I'm sorry, but al-Qaeda is much too small of an organization and controls no land. It would have to be a..."war on terror". But it also must be done ideologically which is why this response by an important Muslim scholar was such a pleasing find on google:

http://www.mereislam.info/articles/D...A-Al-Akiti.pdf

*it's long, and I skimmed through it, but it is a good read*

Also, there was this interesting interview with Sadr in Newsweek, that firebrand Iraqi cleric, who earlier was on our hitlist because he was able to hold back our military quite effectively, and only backed down when his superior Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani wagged his finger. He was talking about how he classified the Sunni's into two groups:

1) The majority who are his brothers in Islam
2) The takfiri's who follow Zarqawi and kill Iraqis and need to be fought

See, I think that the Muslim world in general is doing it's best to shed the unfair 'terrorist' label...

If this isn't enough evidence, than I don't know what is...

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I feel bad for the majority of Muslims who are victimized by their own people who perpetrate stereotypical behavior.

I also feel bad for black people who are victimized by their own ethnic members who embrace stereotypical black urban culture.

I also feel bad for Republicans.

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I agree, Divinus. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I agree, Divinus. ~:)

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Oh you wascally wabbit. You spinster you. That is jutht dethpicable. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Wakka wakka wakka!

I think we would all agree that the stereotypes are indeed view points born of ignorance. We all develop our opinions based on personal experience or the experiences of others. I dare say, is it possible that having the opportunity to meet and interact with people from the Middle East in our communities or in our classrooms does not give an all inclusive religious, sexism, politeness medal. Now, is there anyone who has been over there to experience the Middle East and its stereotypes of Westerners and just HOW polite they might be. How many of us can walk through the lands of the MIddle East and come out alive. Compared to how many of the Middle East not only walk through our lands, but have been welcomed into our communities and schools. Comparing Oklahoma City bombing and abortion doctor murders to daily terrorist bombings is stretch.

So I say that before I wave the wand of forgiveness, show me more that politeness here in the West.

Romulas

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Well, I'm sure they would be interested in riots protesting the civilian deaths in their countries due to our bombs... :yes:

After all, most of the war protests are small (opposition to it is large) and focus on getting our troops out of there...

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You are going to fit in well at U of M.

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Originally Posted by Romulas

I think we would all agree that the stereotypes are indeed view points born of ignorance. We all develop our opinions based on personal experience or the experiences of others. I dare say, is it possible that having the opportunity to meet and interact with people from the Middle East in our communities or in our classrooms does not give an all inclusive religious, sexism, politeness medal. Now, is there anyone who has been over there to experience the Middle East and its stereotypes of Westerners and just HOW polite they might be. How many of us can walk through the lands of the MIddle East and come out alive. Compared to how many of the Middle East not only walk through our lands, but have been welcomed into our communities and schools. Comparing Oklahoma City bombing and abortion doctor murders to daily terrorist bombings is stretch.

So I say that before I wave the wand of forgiveness, show me more that politeness here in the West.

Romulas

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A little while back (1970's-1980's), we were welcomed and treated like honored guests...

That changed, and there is a reason...

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Originally Posted by Ice

You are going to fit in well at U of M.

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With the 'fair and cool kids group' :tongue2:. But not with the kids who think religion is a drug (and the only drug they won't try... :laugh4:).

I meant in my first post that the Muslim men (also all Saudi in this case) wrote about their desires for equality with women. And it wasn't 100%. One had some reservations.

DevDave:
I also like the Koreans very much.

Tachikaze, not to disagree overmuch with your point about stereotypes, but surely you can't make a judgement based on your experiences with a handful of wealthy, liberal(comparatively) students who have been sent to America to learn with that of your average Middle-easterner. I dont know that that's anymore valid than the stereotype you're trying to put down.

If you're trying to say not every Muslim is a terrorist, then I think you're preaching to the choir here- but is there much else to be gleaned from this?

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Originally Posted by DivArma

I would be even more interested in them turning on their own extremists and engaging in a civil war to purge themselves of their cancer.

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I absolutely have no idea whether KKK was opposed by civilians the way you expected from moderate Muslims. Were they?

Also it's nice to hear about your view on other different ethnic/religious groups, however make sure that you will never get what cartooning Muhammed could mean to Muslims (omit the devastative reaction). And that's a matter of cultural difference indeed.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I prefer the term "boomski".


That's a joke.

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Hey, that's my joke(tm)

I am sure they can be great people, but there are differences that make it hard to communicate. We do have completily different cultures, friction is best avoided.

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We have had Saudi women in the school. There are two now. Forget what the media and popular Western opinion is of Saudi or Muslim women. They wear modern, sometimes sexy, fashion (one of them keeps her hair covered), are outspoken and candid, and behave, in every outward way, equal to the Saudi men. One is a business woman, the other a chemistry major.

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Not wishing to be contentious here, but this is the same Saudi Arabia where women were until very recently prohibited from driving? Where a woman's testimony in court is given half the weight of a man's? I hope these sexy women felt OK about women not being allowed to stand or vote in Saudi's elections to municipal councils? Where, according to Amnesty International:

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Domestic violence attracted national and international attention when in April Rania al-Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia. A television presenter and mother of two, Rania al-Baz was attacked by her husband on 4 April at their home in Jeddah, apparently for having answered the telephone. She suffered 13 fractures to her face. Her husband then put her in his van and reportedly dumped her unconscious at a hospital in Jeddah, claiming that she was a victim of a traffic accident.

When Rania al-Baz’ disfigured face hit newspaper front pages it forced into the open the many severe forms of discrimination that facilitate and perpetuate violence against women in Saudi Arabia, and the issue of impunity. The case was the first of its kind in the country to proceed under the public eye in a criminal court and result in conviction and punishment. Rania al-Baz revealed that her husband had a history of violence against her but that she could not leave him for fear of losing custody of her children. When she had tried to leave him he prevented her from seeing her children for two months. Divorce in Saudi Arabia is primarily the man’s prerogative. Women’s rights in this regard are so limited that they are almost impossible to exercise. To gain a divorce, women, unlike men, must prove harm or fault by the spouse, be able to pay compensation, face the risk of losing custody of children, and be able to convince an all-male judiciary. The problems are compounded by severe restrictions on women’s movement, total dependency on male relatives and social stigma attached to divorce. Women activists, writers, journalists and lawyers called for legal and judicial changes to end such discrimination and combat the impunity enjoyed by perpetrators of violence against women.

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You met some nice people. I'm glad. But I'm not sure what it tells us about Saudi Arabia.

Oh, and two Saudi women in the school, and how many Saudi men? Also two? or do more Saudi men than women get sent abroad for education...

I have also had an experience with some Saudi "students" when I was attending a military school at Ft Eustis, VA back in 1999-2000. A group of these Saudi Military personnel were my nieghbors for a time. They were indeed very polite and cordial, and I was even invited to dinner once. They (all males) treated me very well for an infidel, even allowing me to express my religous views, and teaching me about theirs. One of the men was considered an Iman, and he was the most devout, and courteous. Everything was going well until, after dinner, a rather brusk and seemly character showed up. He seemed to be in charge, as they all deferred to him. He seemed a little high strung to me, and soon he showed his true colors when he invited me outside for a little chat to ask me if I could get him any drugs. :inquisitive:

I was dumbfounded at first, and then gathered my wits. This man was asking me to compromise myself and risk my over twenty year career in the military so that he could get high. I immediately recognized my position, and to this day feel that he was trying to get me compromise myself so that I could be used in a little espionage game. Oh yes, this is a common approach by spies, and I was thankful that I had some training to recognize it as such. :sweatdrop: Instantly, my old habits from the Cold War era kicked in, and I politely refused his request and made my excuses to my guests. The next day I reported this activity to my OIC, and he must have reported it to the CID, for it was soon after that this individual was sent home to Saudi Arabia.

Oh the Saudis are very polite indeed. Especially when they are trying to ellicit information or recriut an agent in their holy cause.

If they would only turn over Osama Bin Laden and crew, renounce all forms of Islamic extremism, and send troops to fight along side my comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I could find it in my heart to trust them again. I find it amazing that you have even agreed to teach them in this country. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be allowed here at all.

PS: The events I described really did happen, just as sure as the World Trade Centers were destroyed. Please feel free to read this post to your "students" any time. Perhaps it will put it into perspective for them.

Allah Akhbar!

PS edit: I should have looked a little closer at your Avatar and signature quote. It would have explained so much. :hippie:

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Originally Posted by rotorgun

PS edit: I should have looked a little closer at your Avatar and signature quote. It would have explained so much. :hippie:

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Man, you should read the rest of his posts/threads. :laugh4:

Some of you mentioned Iranians. I can't comment on Iranians. I would say that their nation's policies are more closed than most, if not all, of the other nations in the region.

Some of you also referred to the lack of woman's suffrage and other restrictions. These are government policies, not necessarily the attitudes of the people. When some of you discuss the US, you distinguish government policy from the people. You should do the same for the Saudis.

How many Saudi women and men in my school? Two women and nine men. A better ratio than the number of women to men in the US Senate.

Keep in mind that the situation was very different in 1995. There were no Saudi women studying here at all then. The behavior of men towards the female US teachers was very disciminatory. In ten years, things have changed a lot. People's attitudes about Saudis and other Middle Easterners are often based on simplistic, outdated stereotypes, based mostly on hearsay and firmly-fixed opinions.

It's the practice of governments to present an image of an enemy that is alien and unfamiliar to their citizens. They emphasize the differences, and ignore the similarities. They do not want to us identify or sympathize with them.

The US government began a war with Iraq, and supposedly with terrorists, and reinforces this alien image of Iraqis and other peoples associated with them, such as Saudis. There is sometimes truth to the pictures they draw, but they are exaggerations that support their agenda.

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

These young men and women are not as alien as certain people would like you to believe.

So, a small group of people that may or may not be infiltrating our country by means of your university are actually polite to you, perhaps in an effort to disarm your suspicions, and you sieze on this as evidence that Saudis are the most polite people on the planet and in fact, Americans are just bigots? You kill me Tachi. You're as constant as the Northern Star. In any dispute, in any issue, it's always the USA at fault. I'll give credit where credit is due... we need consistency in these days, even consistently wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

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But that only makes sense. The best schools are in the US- people from all over the world want to study here. Saudis are rich on oil, but they're smart enough to know it won't last forever. So, they're taking small steps to move beyond that- steps like paying for their elites to come to the US and learn our culture and business practices.

It's just the smart thing to do in their own interests. Im not going to laud them for it anymore than Id criticize them for doing so.

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Originally Posted by rotorgun

I have also had an experience with some Saudi "students" when I was attending a military school at Ft Eustis, VA back in 1999-2000. A group of these Saudi Military personnel were my nieghbors for a time. They were indeed very polite and cordial, and I was even invited to dinner once. They (all males) treated me very well for an infidel, even allowing me to express my religous views, and teaching me about theirs. One of the men was considered an Iman, and he was the most devout, and courteous. Everything was going well until, after dinner, a rather brusk and seemly character showed up. He seemed to be in charge, as they all deferred to him. He seemed a little high strung to me, and soon he showed his true colors when he invited me outside for a little chat to ask me if I could get him any drugs. :inquisitive:

I was dumbfounded at first, and then gathered my wits. This man was asking me to compromise myself and risk my over twenty year career in the military so that he could get high. I immediately recognized my position, and to this day feel that he was trying to get me compromise myself so that I could be used in a little espionage game. Oh yes, this is a common approach by spies, and I was thankful that I had some training to recognize it as such. :sweatdrop: Instantly, my old habits from the Cold War era kicked in, and I politely refused his request and made my excuses to my guests. The next day I reported this activity to my OIC, and he must have reported it to the CID, for it was soon after that this individual was sent home to Saudi Arabia.

Oh the Saudis are very polite indeed. Especially when they are trying to ellicit information or recriut an agent in their holy cause.

If they would only turn over Osama Bin Laden and crew, renounce all forms of Islamic extremism, and send troops to fight along side my comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I could find it in my heart to trust them again. I find it amazing that you have even agreed to teach them in this country. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be allowed here at all.

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I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Some of you also referred to the lack of woman's suffrage and other restrictions. These are government policies, not necessarily the attitudes of the people. When some of you discuss the US, you distinguish government policy from the people. You should do the same for the Saudis.

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Hmm - it seems you are wanting a standard applied that you yourself often don't apply when discussing political issues.

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How many Saudi women and men in my school? Two women and nine men. A better ratio than the number of women to men in the US Senate.

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And that some how makes the ratio better?

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Keep in mind that the situation was very different in 1995. There were no Saudi women studying here at all then. The behavior of men towards the female US teachers was very disciminatory. In ten years, things have changed a lot. People's attitudes about Saudis and other Middle Easterners are often based on simplistic, outdated stereotypes, based mostly on hearsay and firmly-fixed opinions.

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Care to guess what my first hand experience with dealing with the Saudi male in Saudi Arabia was? Or how about the numerous times I conducted training with Saudi officers in several service schools? Or how about several other first hand accounts from people who have returned from doing military missions in Saudi Arabia?

What you are seeing Tachikaze is a bubble. Find out the social-economic status of your students, and you might discover the validity of your point.

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It's the practice of governments to present an image of an enemy that is alien and unfamiliar to their citizens. They emphasize the differences, and ignore the similarities. They do not want to us identify or sympathize with them.

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Saudi Arabia is a long time ally of the United States. (an ally who uses us completely for their own benefit - same as we do them)

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The US government began a war with Iraq, and supposedly with terrorists, and reinforces this alien image of Iraqis and other peoples associated with them, such as Saudis. There is sometimes truth to the pictures they draw, but they are exaggerations that support their agenda.

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So far one of the few statements you have stated that I agree with.

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The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

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This is not a new program by the way. Back in 1983-1987 I went to college at a school that had several Saudi's and other Middle-East students. In fact most of them were very likable as individuals, I enjoyed visiting with several of them on occassion.

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These young men and women are not as alien as certain people would like you to believe.

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Correct, I have absolutely no problem with Saudi's or anyother individual, but don't attempt to fool yourself nor me with your comprision. You are most likely dealing with the upper echelon of the social-economic class of Saudi society. A bubble does not mean its false nor does it mean its true.

I would like to reinforce Rotorgun's statement. A disproportionately large number of foreign students, mostly from the middle east, mostly from the Kingdom of Saud, are sent here to collect information. It's been going on for a while and takes advantage of the general naïveté attitude college students and professors have on the world. These are the same type of people that wondered: "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11.

To counter that I believe that everyone should be judged as an individual and treated accordingly. However one of the greatest threats to our security, is/are foreign students.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

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LOL mine goes back 20 years..... comparing apples to oranges again Tachikaze

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It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

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How about experiences with the culture. Where there is a compound where the people gather to watch the sentence of the convicted criminal being carried out. Wether it be a simple punishment of a hand being cutoff or the head.


Or how about dragging shop keepers out of the store and beating them if the store was not closed at the first call to prayer.

Oh wait how about the males in Saudi Arabia not helping female soldiers when they went to purchase an item...

I got more....

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By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

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Have you renounced your American citizenship yet?

It seems you have not read some of Rotorgun's posts are you wouldn't of wrote such a statement. :oops:

I have traveled quite a bit of Morocco, and a bit of Tunisia. I have daily contact with Muslims. I have a Moroccan colleague too.

I found Morocco alien, strange. I did not grasp a lot of it's social codes, even with there being little of a language barrier. And I mean alien in a neutral way, not necessarily demeaning. It is a country I could never live in, I could never accustom myself to it.

The western Muslims range from complete jerks to some really cool people. Though, to be perfectly honest, most of the latter are the ones that are best integrated. There is no shortage of modest, polite, smart Muslims. Of liberated women. Of Muslims who got themselves a life and contribute to society in a meaningful way.

Tachi, do you think that these Arabs attitudes about women have just simply changed? Or, quite possibly, the EVIL EMPIRE of the United States and Western culture has assisted this change in policy and attitude. Regardless, you would never give the West that sort of consideration. Like I said earlier, every Arab/Persian (Iranian) persons have been really nice and polite. But for you to just preach to us about how other's personal experience are wrong concerning these people only show how hypocritical you are about trumpeting your own experience as some sort of Gospel Truth on how Arabs and Muslims in general are really (in your own world of course).
So while you're riding your moral high horse like some sort of Fundamentalist Christian that you loath so much, try to be more tolerant of other's beliefs and experiences. You don't want to come off as some sort of self righteous fascist do you!?!?!?:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

The Saudis could have remained in isolation. The government could keep its students within its borders, insulated from foreign contact. Yet, it is actively sponsoring programs to do the very opposite, exposing young men and women to Western values, pop culture, and vices.

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Don't they also sponsor Wahhabi fundamentalist schools elsewhere? :inquisitive:

"LeftHand, have you seen RightHand around, I've got some questions..."

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I can't vouch for the kinds of people you hang out with. My experience with Saudis goes back eleven years and covers many more people that can fit around a dinner table in one anecdotal situation. I would say, from what you have written so far, that my pool of representatives is larger than yours, and more current. They are also not soldiers.

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Fair enough, although I don't exactly hand around with any particular group of people. I was merely trying to be a good representative of my fellow Americans by showing a little interest in their well being and respect for their culture. That I felt misled after the request by one of their associates to provide him with narcotics I'm sure that you can understand. The fact that he was so soon sent home afterwards was enough to justiy my suspicsions. The fact that they were soldiers has some bearing on my experience, but how would I have been treated by their government if I had acted in such a way in Saudi Arabia. I would probably still be in prison or worse.

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It sounds like you would not trust an entire nation of people based on your experiences with one group of soldiers. Would you base your view of Americans on one group of torturers from Abu Graib?

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I don't know, ask Al Jeezera. Perhaps if they would not represent us as nothing more than infidel "Crusaders" who deserve nothing but death merely because we aren't Muslim, than perhaps I could agree to meet them half way. Turn about is fair play.

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By the way, have you renounced the US invasion of Iraq?

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I am very opposed to the invasion of Iraq on principal. I will not go so far as to renounce it because I believe that some good can come from it despite the Hypocricy of the Bush administration's claims of humanitarian intervention there. I am well aware of the imperialistic motives behind Bush's little war. I, unlike you, will probably, due to my asscociation with the military, be made to actually participate in this affair. I don't blame anyone but myself for that, but I am honor bound to see that I do all I can to support it despite my feelings.

The little group which was flying the planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were all mostly Saudi individuals. It seems that they were also "students" here as well for a time. From that day on, I have always felt that any Saudi "students" are suspect until their government comes clean with us about this "Osama" character. Somebody in that country knows exactly where he is I am sure. In the meantime I should be very cautious in my dealings with any of them.

Am I bitter? Just a little. Just be glad for your Saudi freinds that I was not the President on September 12th, 2001.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

It seems you have not read some of Rotorgun's posts are you wouldn't of wrote such a statement. :oops:

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Thank you Redleg, I know that you and I are on the opposite sides of many arguments, but I appreciate your pointing this out. Mr. Tachikaze would be suprised to know that I am actually a liberal myself, a conservative one yes, but a liberal no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I would like to reinforce Rotorgun's statement. A disproportionately large number of foreign students, mostly from the middle east, mostly from the Kingdom of Saud, are sent here to collect information. It's been going on for a while and takes advantage of the general naïveté attitude college students and professors have on the world. These are the same type of people that wondered: "Why do they hate us?" after 9/11.

To counter that I believe that everyone should be judged as an individual and treated accordingly. However one of the greatest threats to our security, is/are foreign students.

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Thank you Vladimir. I hate to lecture to you my good freind Tachikaze, but what he is referring to is called a fifth column in military parlance. You know, those little spy dudes you send snooping around when you play RTW ? Except these are possibly leading to the deaths of some of your fellow countrymen. Oh yes, be assured that Al Queida has infiltrated the ranks of the collegiate world.
:eeeek:

Wow you guys are absolutely wonderful, you know that? :dizzy2:

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

Also rotorgun, just one question, what sort of narcotics did the guy ask for, and was he really interested in anything else besides narcotics?

I know alot of people who take light stuff, marijuana, qatt, hash in the army, including US navy personnel since i have trained with them in my five year career, its rather harmless.

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I don't know, ask Al Jeezera. Perhaps if they would not represent us as nothing more than infidel "Crusaders" who deserve nothing but death merely because we aren't Muslim, than perhaps I could agree to meet them half way. Turn about is fair play.

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This baffles me the most, where in al jazeera do they term anyone infidel crusaders?

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Originally Posted by faisal

I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

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Hah ... I bet those Iranians (and other muslims ... actually they are all the same anyway) who I studied chemistry with are now (yes, RIGHT NOW!) using their acquired knowledge to build WMDs ... actually I even have the suspicion that, when we went out for a drink in the evening, they were a bit pre-occupied trying to figure out where to plant a bomb in the pub.

Sneaky guys ... if I ever meet them again :furious3:

(end of sarcasm) :juggle2:

[QUOTE=faisal]Wow you guys are absolutely wonderful, you know that? :dizzy2:[/QOUTE]
Thank you, we do what we can you know. :juggle2:

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I didn't know student in colleges would become a fifth column of spies that would potentially destroy the entire US military and command by spying from other students.

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Well, that's a bit of a stretch, but in case you didn't know it, the most smallest bits of information can be strung together from many scources to make up a larger intelligence picture; the accurate picture that the Japenese had of the Pacific fleet on the verge of the attack at Pearl Harbor is one instance. I am not generalizing by saying that some of the students could very well be plants from the enemies of the United States. I apologize for seeming to stereotype. Can you account for the whereabouts and activities of every student? I daresay that you cannot.

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Also rotorgun, just one question, what sort of narcotics did the guy ask for, and was he really interested in anything else besides narcotics?

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He wanted me to get him some cocaine. Oh yes, and to find him some prostitutes as well.

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I know alot of people who take light stuff, marijuana, qatt, hash in the army, including US navy personnel since i have trained with them in my five year career, its rather harmless.

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Perhaps, but as I told him, it is against my religous beliefs and moral character to abide such a thing. To his credit, he did not push the issue, but I could tell that I was persona non grata with him from that moment on. I will not judge those who you have known to use drugs, and I would be naive to think that what you say is not true. I just do not approve of there use, do you?

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This baffles me the most, where in al jazeera do they term anyone infidel crusaders?

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This is what they have reported Osama Bin Laden and Al Mosaui to have called us. Do you remember the graphic video of Al Mosaui beheading innocent people and Osam Bin Laden threatening us with more attacks? We are clearly referred to as "Crusaders" in several of the videos. Didn't Al Jezeera play those parts of the videos?

In any case, thank you for your stimulating questions. May God Bless you in your Naval career.
:bow:

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Well, that's a bit of a stretch, but in case you didn't know it, the most smallest bits of information can be strung together from many scources to make up a larger intelligence picture; the accurate picture that the Japenese had of the Pacific fleet on the verge of the attack at Pearl Harbor is one instance. I am not generalizing by saying that some of the students could very well be plants from the enemies of the United States. I apologize for seeming to stereotype. Can you account for the whereabouts and activities of every student? I daresay that you cannot.

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But this is not World War II, the US military can't risk letting information go through to universities, unless you are saying some of the saudis were just being suspicious around some sensitive military areas, you got a point by then.

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He wanted me to get him some cocaine. Oh yes, and to find him some prostitutes as well.

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Why did he ask you of all people? it just seems weird someone would ask for coke and women out of the blue and on the first day of meeting you.

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Perhaps, but as I told him, it is against my religous beliefs and moral character to abide such a thing. To his credit, he did not push the issue, but I could tell that I was persona non grata with him from that moment on. I will not judge those who you have known to use drugs, and I would be naive to think that what you say is not true. I just do not approve of there use, do you?

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You know, i don't blame you, but if i was in your place, i wouldn't bust that guy's secret.

Look, even in Islam, drugs and prostitution is bad, i have morals too, but you know the saying "live and let live", thats exactly my motto in life, i don't like to jeopardise other peoples careers becuase of a minor and pointless issue like drugs and women, especially when they won't harm me. The guy you described seemed like this one who used to be in my unit, just after training he keeps to his own in a corner wanking to pin-ups of naked women in burkas and smoking pot, utterly disgusting but also harmless.

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This is what they have reported Osama Bin Laden and Al Mosaui to have called us. Do you remember the graphic video of Al Mosaui beheading innocent people and Osam Bin Laden threatening us with more attacks? We are clearly referred to as "Crusaders" in several of the videos. Didn't Al Jezeera play those parts of the videos?

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Well the beheadings weren't fully broadcasted, you don't actually see people getting their heads cut off.

And unless you missed it, at one Baghdad bob claimed al Jazeera are actually US agents broadcasting pro-us propaganda. In my honest opinion they probably stumbled on the right path in that war for both sides to criticise them that hard.

The thing is Al Jazeera just broadcasts what they receive, its one form of sensationalist media if you ask me, they just don't stick to the US side of the conflict they broadcast both sides (much like the BBC). What they report does not reflect their viewpoint.

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In any case, thank you for your stimulating questions. May God Bless you in your Naval career.

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Thank you :bow: not in the army anymore however, just was a voluntary period of 5 years doing humanitarian work in dangerous locations.

First of all faisal, thank you for reaching out in such a way as to restore me to some sort of rational viewpoint. I apologise to you and Tachikaze as well, if I have seemed narrow minded and bigoted. The wounds of that September morning in 2001 are very deep. I still cannot bring myself to watch any video from that day. I still weep when I see the people jumping out of the buildings every time that I watch it. I shouldn't let it cloud my reason so. Forgive me for any unkindnesses.

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Originally Posted by faisal

But this is not World War II, the US military can't risk letting information go through to universities, unless you are saying some of the saudis were just being suspicious around some sensitive military areas, you got a point by then.

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That is a valid point, and no, I don't have any imformation regarding any such activities. I am just stating that it is only prudent for our intelligence people to be watchful. Surely anyone can see why there is such an atmosphere of suspicion? How would the people of your country react to such a situation?

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Why did he ask you of all people? it just seems weird someone would ask for coke and women out of the blue and on the first day of meeting you.

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That is what I asked myself as well. It made no sense. Perhaps he saw mistook me as an easy mark.

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You know, i don't blame you, but if i was in your place, i wouldn't bust that guy's secret.

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Believe me when I say that it took much soul searching for me to do so. I was aware of what trouble I was causing him when he returned home. I just felt that it was rather odd, as you yourself have affirmed. I guess I just love my country, and don't care to have my honor as a soldier and a Christian violated. It really made me feel very cheap.

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Look, even in Islam, drugs and prostitution is bad, i have morals too, but you know the saying "live and let live", thats exactly my motto in life, i don't like to jeopardise other peoples careers becuase of a minor and pointless issue like drugs and women, especially when they won't harm me. The guy you described seemed like this one who used to be in my unit, just after training he keeps to his own in a corner wanking to pin-ups of naked women in burkas and smoking pot, utterly disgusting but also harmless.

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Point taken. I am sorry that I misjudged you as just another fanatic Muslim. I realize now that you are most likely a decent fellow who can forgive the faults of others. As I have said, perhaps it was my wounded honor which motivated my actions. I am willing enough to admit my own faults. I am a very proud man sometimes. It probably comes from my French ancestry.
:wall:

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Well the beheadings weren't fully broadcasted, you don't actually see people getting their heads cut off.

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I have seen the uncut versions. Barbaric, to say the least.

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And unless you missed it, at one Baghdad bob claimed al Jazeera are actually US agents broadcasting pro-us propaganda. In my honest opinion they probably stumbled on the right path in that war for both sides to criticise them that hard.

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How so? What do you mean here?

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The thing is Al Jazeera just broadcasts what they receive, its one form of sensationalist media if you ask me, they just don't stick to the US side of the conflict they broadcast both sides (much like the BBC). What they report does not reflect their viewpoint.

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Agreed. CNN, FOX, and MSN all do the same thing as well.

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Thank you :bow: not in the army anymore however, just was a voluntary period of 5 years doing humanitarian work in dangerous locations.

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Your welcome. I am glad to meet another humanitarian, despite my misgivings about the current situation. :shakehands:

Tachi Im glad you have nice students. To often in these suitations people rely on stereotypes or biggoted opinons or a snippet on a cnn they saw once on how islams eat children. Muslims do the same as well. The reason is no one is willing to man up in both countries. No one has the balls to stand up and say yes i screwed up instead we get mutual hatered and polticians who say they will drive out the infidel or destroy the axis of evil. Instead of being diplomatic talk of war and hate surronds us diplomacy be damned what once was an important step in constructive talks is now something to be stepped over. We work at for a coupla weeks and say screw it lets go git em. Both sides think the other will lose and they are both right. No one can win this the islams will not pervial. They do not have enough power to take on the west. Neither the west with Islam. Hatered of the west isnt limited to a few indivudals its an idea and a very powerful one. Its the same reason why young men join gangs here. They misplace there grief poverty and anger into some grand idea which does nothing for them. Education will help some but it cannot help all. The US Civil war ended 141 years ago and supposedly bigotry obvisuly it didnt. We will always fight this battle but we cant fight it like this

Tachi:

Living and teaching in the DC Metro area for a time, I would have to agree with you that Middle Eastern born students were usually polite, and this was true regardless of whether they hailed from Saudi, from Lebanon, from the West Bank, or from Iran (B'Hai).

The documented sexism of most muslim cultures does seem to be changing, and the students of your experience may well be (and hopefully are) the harbingers of a brighter future. Western culture too was dismissive of women until late in the 19th century, and women are only now approaching parity in salaries and opportunities. Who is to say that the muslim world is not on a similar path?

I do wish that more of the fringe elements of the Muslim world would turn away from violence in the name of religion. Western culture too had its problems with this -- for centuries -- but has largely gotten past this issue. In this, the Muslim world is lagging, but a majority of the Muslim faith almost certainly does share an abhorence of violence as a tool for promoting their faith.

I disagree with Rotor' about Iraq, because I think an "imperialist" effort would have been far better at squelching the terrorist/insurgent opposition and would have prepared for it better. Iraq seems to me to be a genuine effort to further the long-term goals of the USA, but pursued with limited knowledge of the region and a lot of minimalism -- and possibly begun based on poor data from the outset.

Rotor' is quite probably correct about the "5th column" effort he experienced. The Saudi was likely doing his job to secure an intelligence source. Even if he was not, he represented a potential security risk for the USA just by encouraging/promoting a prohibited activity. Rotor made the correct response.

Has Al-Queda "infiltrated" U.S. colleges? Probably, though AQ may well be recruiting operatives and sending them here or recruiting them after they've come here on their own. Given their mission, it would be an intelligent use of the efforts since part of the training for the operative would be accomplished at enemy expense. Does this mean that many such infiltrators exist? Almost certainly not. Moreover, terrorist organizations are almost certainly not the only players in this game. Given the nature of the intelligence game, I hope the CIA and NSA are doing their best to recruit these students as sources of information for our purposes...though I worry that we're too in love with satelite cameras and not focused enough on human sources.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The documented sexism of most muslim cultures does seem to be changing, and the students of your experience may well be (and hopefully are) the harbingers of a brighter future. Western culture too was dismissive of women until late in the 19th century, and women are only now approaching parity in salaries and opportunities. Who is to say that the muslim world is not on a similar path?

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I totaly agree with you here on this Seamus. The west should look to its own house first before trying to change the culture of the Middle East. Change is always difficult for any culture, especially a conservative one, and I think we should applaude the efforts of our Muslim brothers thus far. Many Muslim women seem to prefer the role that they have to remain unchanged as well. It is an issue best left for the Muslim world to deal with in their own way.

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I do wish that more of the fringe elements of the Muslim world would turn away from violence in the name of religion. Western culture too had its problems with this -- for centuries -- but has largely gotten past this issue. In this, the Muslim world is lagging, but a majority of the Muslim faith almost certainly does share an abhorence of violence as a tool for promoting their faith.

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Thank you for reminding me of my poor manners in not remembering this. I have read some of the Koran (Praise be upon it), and its teachimgs are by and large peaceful.

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I disagree with Rotor' about Iraq, because I think an "imperialist" effort would have been far better at squelching the terrorist/insurgent opposition and would have prepared for it better. Iraq seems to me to be a genuine effort to further the long-term goals of the USA, but pursued with limited knowledge of the region and a lot of minimalism -- and possibly begun based on poor data from the outset.

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As always Seamus, you are the consummate gentleman when you do disagree. I shall respect your difference of opinion with grace. Despite my feelings of bitterness over the whole mess, I do fervently hope and pray that "All things work for good, to those who love the Lord" will apply to our efforts throughout the region.

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Rotor' is quite probably correct about the "5th column" effort he experienced. The Saudi was likely doing his job to secure an intelligence source. Even if he was not, he represented a potential security risk for the USA just by encouraging/promoting a prohibited activity. Rotor made the correct response.

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Thank you. :bow: I was really only reacting the way I have been trained to. I'm sure that all can understand my viewpoint. At the time, it had no bearing on the way that I felt towards the other Saudis present. I actually felt a bit ashamed for them that one of their comrades had acted in such a fashion. May God forgive me if I made an incorrect judgement.

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Has Al-Queda "infiltrated" U.S. colleges? Probably, though AQ may well be recruiting operatives and sending them here or recruiting them after they've come here on their own. Given their mission, it would be an intelligent use of the efforts since part of the training for the operative would be accomplished at enemy expense. Does this mean that many such infiltrators exist? Almost certainly not. Moreover, terrorist organizations are almost certainly not the only players in this game. Given the nature of the intelligence game, I hope the CIA and NSA are doing their best to recruit these students as sources of information for our purposes...though I worry that we're too in love with satelite cameras and not focused enough on human sources.

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Once again Seamus, you have eloquently presented what I so poorly, in my brusk, soldierly manner stated so poorly. That I stereotyped the entire Muslim world in the process was unforgivable. I allowed myself to be governed by my passions instead of my intellect. Yes faisal and Tachi, I did overstate the case. I never meant to imply that every Muslim visitor to our shores is an espionage agent. I only wanted to point out that it is one way that Al Quieda, and other such groups could infiltrate our society. I am sorry that our country must make things inconvenient for your students Tachikaze, but there is too much at stake for us to fail to protect ourselves because of it. Please convey this sentiment to your students, and ask for their patience and understanding. I will pray for them in my daily orations to my God.

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How so? What do you mean here?

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Well i might be exaggerating, but they seem to be unbiased concerning journalism, much like the BBC, in my opinion that is.

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Your welcome. I am glad to meet another humanitarian, despite my misgivings about the current situation.

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I'm glad this turned out so well :bow:

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Originally Posted by faisal

Well i might be exaggerating, but they seem to be unbiased concerning journalism, much like the BBC, in my opinion that is.

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Of course. How could I miss something so obvious. :stupido: I do remember seeing a special about Al Jezeera awhile back, and they did have a segment where opposing sides got to air their differences. I was a little surprised to learn that this was allowed. I do feel that, like western journalism tends to have a western bais, Al Jezeera does tend to appeal to your Muslim culture more. It is inevitable.

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I'm glad this turned out so well :bow:

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We are much in your debt as you did a great deal to bring such an outcome about. Thank you for guiding me back to a more objective point of view. As I looked over my earlier posts for this thread I realized how bigoted I must have appeared. It is only through intellectual dialouge that our cultures will come to a better understanding.

Salem al lekum (not sure of the spelling here) ~;)

Has it ever occurred to anyone in this thread that these Saudi students are just like good, decent people everywhere else on this planet, regardless of ethnic or political background?

Let me clearly state that this is the result of the actions of one individual. While not a Saudi, this story has relevance to our topic:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_th...?doc_id=372835

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On February 28, Al-Arian -- formerly a tenured associate professor of computer engineering at the University of South Florida -- entered a guilty plea to conspiracy to procuring "funds, goods, or services to or for the benefit of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a Specially Designated Terrorist [Organization], in violation of 18 U.S.C. §371."

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I LOVE this statement by the judge:

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Dr. Al-Arian, as usual, you speak very eloquently. I find it interesting that here in public in front of everyone you praised this country, the same country that in private you referred to as "the great Satan." ...You are a master manipulator.

You looked your neighbors in the eyes and said you had nothing to do with the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. This trial exposed that as a lie.... The evidence was clear in this case that you were a leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad...

When Iran, the major funding source of the PIJ, became upset because the PIJ could not account for how it was spending its money, it was to your board of directors that it went to demand changes. Iran wanted its representative to have a say in how its money was spent. To stop that, you leaped into action. You offered to rewrite the bylaws of the organization...

But when it came to blowing up women and children on buses, did you leap into action then? ... No. You lifted not one finger, made not one phone call. To the contrary, you laughed when you heard about the bombings, what you euphemistically call "operations"...

And yet, still in the face of your own words, you continue to lie to your friends and supporters, claiming to abhor violence and to seek only aid for widows and orphans. Your only connection to widows and orphans is that you create them, even among the Palestinians; and you create them, not by sending your children to blow themselves out of existence. No. You exhort others to send their children... You are indeed a master manipulator.

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I'm sure he was polite and respectful as well.

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Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

Has it ever occurred to anyone in this thread that these Saudi students are just like good, decent people everywhere else on this planet, regardless of ethnic or political background?

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You are aware of the problem, aren't you DemArch ~:)

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Originally Posted by rotorgun

The west should look to its own house first before trying to change the culture of the Middle East. Change is always difficult for any culture, especially a conservative one, and I think we should applaude the efforts of our Muslim brothers thus far. Many Muslim women seem to prefer the role that they have to remain unchanged as well. It is an issue best left for the Muslim world to deal with in their own way.

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This is, perhaps, the most intelligent thing I've read in this thread.
:bow:

Oops, another one:

Naughty Teacher!

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BRISBANE, Australia, May 11 (UPI) -- A high school teacher has been arrested in Brisbane for allegedly planning terrorist attacks.

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Originally Posted by rotorgun

First of all faisal, thank you for reaching out in such a way as to restore me to some sort of rational viewpoint. I apologise to you and Tachikaze as well, if I have seemed narrow minded and bigoted. The wounds of that September morning in 2001 are very deep. I still cannot bring myself to watch any video from that day. I still weep when I see the people jumping out of the buildings every time that I watch it. I shouldn't let it cloud my reason so. Forgive me for any unkindnesses.

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First of all, thank you for taking the time to clarify things. It's good that forumers understand each other as best as possible.

I don't watch videos of the WTC attacks. I am overcome with emotion at the very thought of people plunging to their deaths. Except for one magazine cover photo I accidentally saw, and the tiny person that can be seen falling while the second plane hits, I have been lucky not to actually see any of those images.

I lost someone I knew when the Tower Two collapsed. However, I believe she died suddenly before she was aware of what hit her.

In spite of all of that, I don't connect those horrors with hatred of the criminals that committed them. I think only of the victims' and families' fears and pain. I don't care about the nationality of the attackers. To me, they are criminals who don't represent any nation, religion, or culture.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

What you are seeing Tachikaze is a bubble. Find out the social-economic status of your students, and you might discover the validity of your point.

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I'll bet the number of Saudis that fit in the "bubble" I'm seeing is much larger than the bubble the Al Qaeda members occupy.

People in the US are much more willing to generalize the tiny terrorist bubble than the bubble of my students. They seem to be predisposed to believe the negative images of Saudis, and Arabs in general, than the positive ones. The government reinforces and feeds this.

One of my students comes from a farm. I don't know his economic level, but he is certainly no urban managerial type.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

First of all, thank you for taking the time to clarify things. It's good that forumers understand each other as best as possible.

I don't watch videos of the WTC attacks. I am overcome with emotion at the very thought of people plunging to their deaths. Except for one magazine cover photo I accidentally saw, and the tiny person that can be seen falling while the second plane hits, I have been lucky not to actually see any of those images.

I lost someone I knew when the Tower Two collapsed. However, I believe she died suddenly before she was aware of what hit her.

In spite of all of that, I don't connect those horrors with hatred of the criminals that committed them. I think only of the victims' and families' fears and pain. I don't care about the nationality of the attackers. To me, they are criminals who don't represent any nation, religion, or culture.

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Now this is brilliant! Classic! If I ever need to prove to someone that academics are oblivious to the world around them, I will quote you. If you won't open your eyes to horror, don't look at politically incorrect indicators like ethnicity and religion, and think of these people as criminals, then there is no taking you seriously on this matter.

First: Shielding yourself to horrific actions won't make you more objective because your emotions may influence your reactions. Judging by what you said am I correct in thinking that you avoid pictures of the NAZI holocaust for the same reason? The only thing this will lead you to do is ignore reality. Not seeing the images will only make the actions easier to deny.

Secondly: For some misguided reason you choose to ignore indicators that can tell you about a person's intent. Do you do the same for others who commit such heinous acts like child molestation and rape? You can’t consider EVERYONE a suspect so you need to look for indicators. Whether they are age, gender, ethnicity, or religions beliefs there must be some way to narrow the scope of your investigation. By that same token, such characteristics as those must only serve to aid an investigation and must not be used to determine guilt. The DC sniper case is a prime example: The “experts” were predicting a white male when the culprits were two black, Muslim males.

Finally: Criminals are they? What set of laws do they fall under? Who’s jurisdiction? Are they presumed innocent until proven guilty as in American law, or should they be judged by the laws of their home country? I think you’ll find it difficult to prosecute the 9/11 hijackers. Who should we go after then? Should we have the NYPD or FBI go and arrest Bin Laden? These terrorists, or unlawful combatants, operated under the protection of a foreign government and therefore outside our jurisdiction. Good luck with the World Court. The only way the case will be tried there is if we capture these people. Besides, anyone that goes before the court is more likely to die of old age than face justice. This legal approach is the one we took after the ’93 Trade Center bombings and was a failure.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I'll bet the number of Saudis that fit in the "bubble" I'm seeing is much larger than the bubble the Al Qaeda members occupy.

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I would hope so.

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People in the US are much more willing to generalize the tiny terrorist bubble than the bubble of my students. They seem to be predisposed to believe the negative images of Saudis, and Arabs in general, than the positive ones. The government reinforces and feeds this.

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Speak for yourself - I don't generalize Saudi's nor Arabs. I weigh the actions of the individual more then the content of the group. Your making the same generalization of Americans that you believe is happening toward another group.

Hello Pot meet Kettle.

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One of my students comes from a farm. I don't know his economic level, but he is certainly no urban managerial type.

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You might want to ask what type of farm, and where he falls in. You might be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Now this is brilliant! Classic! If I ever need to prove to someone that academics are oblivious to the world around them, I will quote you. If you won't open your eyes to horror, don't look at politically incorrect indicators like ethnicity and religion, and think of these people as criminals, then there is no taking you seriously on this matter.

First: Shielding yourself to horrific actions won't make you more objective because your emotions may influence your reactions. Judging by what you said am I correct in thinking that you avoid pictures of the NAZI holocaust for the same reason? The only thing this will lead you to do is ignore reality. Not seeing the images will only make the actions easier to deny.

Secondly: For some misguided reason you choose to ignore indicators that can tell you about a person's intent. Do you do the same for others who commit such heinous acts like child molestation and rape? You can’t consider EVERYONE a suspect so you need to look for indicators. Whether they are age, gender, ethnicity, or religions beliefs there must be some way to narrow the scope of your investigation. By that same token, such characteristics as those must only serve to aid an investigation and must not be used to determine guilt. The DC sniper case is a prime example: The “experts” were predicting a white male when the culprits were two black, Muslim males.

Finally: Criminals are they? What set of laws do they fall under? Who’s jurisdiction? Are they presumed innocent until proven guilty as in American law, or should they be judged by the laws of their home country? I think you’ll find it difficult to prosecute the 9/11 hijackers. Who should we go after then? Should we have the NYPD or FBI go and arrest Bin Laden? These terrorists, or unlawful combatants, operated under the protection of a foreign government and therefore outside our jurisdiction. Good luck with the World Court. The only way the case will be tried there is if we capture these people. Besides, anyone that goes before the court is more likely to die of old age than face justice. This legal approach is the one we took after the ’93 Trade Center bombings and was a failure.

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I can't be shielded from the images of the WTC demolition. I watched the whole thing as it happened.

The reason is not that my emotions will control my actions. It is because I am too sensitive to the suffering of others to watch it. I don't make a point of looking at auto accidents, for instance.

Emotions should not be a factor in how we regard the attacks. The emotional impact does not change what the highjackers did. I know people got terrified; I know people got blown to pieces; I know people got burned alive; I know people got crushed. The same could have happened of an airline pilot accidentally flew into a skyscraper.

But, I'm a person who feels that attempted murder warrants the same penulty as a successful murder. In other words, it's not the result that determines the seriousness of a crime, it's the intent.

We are talking about Saudi Arabia in this thread, and there is no evidence that the Saudi government or its people supported the attacks. The highjackers were criminals. They commited a crime, not an act of war. Whether they were sheltered by the (non-Arab, non-Saudi) Taliban government or not, I haven't seen evidence that they sanctioned the attacks as a government who engages in a war does.

Whether or not the hijackers can be successfully prosecuted or not, they are criminals. They were not acting in the employ of a national government, and certainly not the Saudi government.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Religious

Every day, five times a day, the Muslim students in my school wash their hands, feet, and faces, find an empty classroom (usually mine), put down a rug, turn towards Mecca and pray together. A husband and wife pray at a separate time and room.

This selfless activity touches me. While the rest of us are out satisfying our hungry stomachs, they take the time to pray patiently in a communal way before eating.

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I'm curious. Do they pray 5 times a day while at school? Or is it more spread out, say twice at school, once before, once after, once before bed? And if they do pray at school, are they ever late and need excuses to get to class?

Azi

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

I'm curious. Do they pray 5 times a day while at school? Or is it more spread out, say twice at school, once before, once after, once before bed? And if they do pray at school, are they ever late and need excuses to get to class?

Azi

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I have already noticed that I worded my earlier post incorrectly. They pray twice at school, once before school, and twice afterwards. The prayer at lunch time is apparently of special importance, for it is more organized and communal.

They normally are not late for class due to their prayers. If a Saudi student is late, they don't tell us the reason, so we can't excuse them for it.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

I can't be shielded from the images of the WTC demolition.

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I beleive the proper term is "attack".