I was thinking of doing one of these again. I missed the Spanish one. :( Job got in the way. I'm open to any of the Factions, just not the huge ones...like the Selecuids......you know. Open to suggestions.
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I was thinking of doing one of these again. I missed the Spanish one. :( Job got in the way. I'm open to any of the Factions, just not the huge ones...like the Selecuids......you know. Open to suggestions.
PBM campaign - “The Will of the Senate”
EDIT: THIS POST WILL NO LONGER BE MAINTAINED BUT HAS BEEN COPIED TO THE FAQ THREAD
Briefly, what it is all about:
=========================================================================Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
The Play Order
The list of participants will now be maintained in the first post of the Senate deliberations thread.
People may join the campaign at any time, although the order in which people first post in this thread will be their "seniority" in the campaign and affect the assignment of faction members to be their "avatars". Priority in assigning avatars will go to lower house members, with seniority being a tie breaker. Ultimately as the Republic grows, we should have 30+ faction members, so every one - Upper and Lower House - should have an-game representation.
Anyone who joins the Lower House of the Senate is confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it.
(b) you could fight a battle at 2 days notice if your avatar gets into a scrap.
Anyone who joins the Upper House is confirming they will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.
Remember, you can always freely switch between houses, but avatars may be re-assigned in order to give priority to lower house members. We don't want to autoresolve battles involving faction members.
=========================================================================
THE NITTY GRITTY
CURRENT RULES:
Game version - We are playing the Metropolis and Naval mod for Rome Total Realism Platinum Edition.
Follow these steps to install the mod:
(1) Start with vanilla RTW patched to 1.5 (1.6 if you have BI); note the 1.5 patch requires installing 1.3 first.
It is recommend that you use windows explorer to copy your RTW directory and everything in it.
Then rename the coped folder "RTR-Platinum" or something and mod this folder, leaving your vanilla RTW in tact.
(2) Install RTR Platinum Edition 1.5.
Currently, this involves two stages: installing the 1.0 Full release (aka 1.4 beta):
http://www.rometotalrealism.org/files/RTR_Platinum.exe
And patching it to 1.5 using the update:
http://www.beaglepc.net/rome/downloa...v1.5_Patch.exe
(4) Install the Metropolis and Naval mod for Platinum
This is explained in:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20000
Current version is 1.4; updated 2 June.
(5) Install the parthia/bactria landblock + africa landblock, and fix for a few map problems etc:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20850
(6) Delete map.rwm from
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\base
c:\Rome - Total War\data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign
CRITICAL WARNING FOR ALL PLAYERS !!!
As you load the game, wait for the advisor to pop up (you do not need to have advice on, it will show up anyway). Click on the show-me-how button to activate the mod. If you forget to do this, you will probably mess up the savegame and at the very least mess up the scripting for four turns per year and Roman leadership. Now you can start playing. You need to do this EVERY TIME you load or start a game.
Settings:
VH campaigns; M battles
Large unit size
Timer on
Fog of war on
Player rules:
*1) No retraining, except ships and full units (to get upgrades). Mercenaries can be merged with AOR units.
2) No extermination (except Carthage).
*3) Fleets can only transport on a 1:1 basis (e.g. one tireme: 1 unit)
4) Historical armies - see below
5) No army may leave Roman territory unless it has a General in command.
6) All battles with captains are autoresolved. Non-siege battle reinforcements led by captains should be placed under AI control.
7) Battles with faction members can be fought manually if the avatar is controlled by a member of the Lower House who plays out the battle within 2 days, otherwise they are autoresolved.
9) Regular reports should provided to Senate. The Consul must post every two days - it could be just a holding message ("Spending time attending to various work duties"), rather than a full report. The purpose is to avoid savegames disappearing for weeks (and encourage interaction with the Senate).
10) Players should post mid-term (after 10 turns) and end-term (after 20 turn) reports in the First Consul reports thread. This will be in character, but include a screenshot of the map, the savegame and a description of the key facts (allies, enemies etc). Players deceiving the Senate are unlikely to garner many votes. Players providing colourful write-ups may be rewarded.
*11) Declarations of war, alliances, ceasefires and relocation of the capital require a Senate vote.
*12) The player must inform the Senate Speaker asap of new faction members when they are spawned (including infants), so that they may be assigned to participants. Please give full details - name, date and season of spawn, relation to family tree, age, location, stats, traits, ancillaries, everything.
13) The game will end when the following factions are destroyed: Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul, Numidia.
14) Players are encouraged to read Quintus’ guide to being a true Roman for inspiration - e.g. on how to assign faction members by age to armies and provinces.
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=12035
Ancillaries
(1) Ancillaries normally should not be swapped without the consent of the participants controlling the avatars with the following exceptions.
(2) Chirurgeons and turncoats can be freely assigned by First Consuls.
(3) Priests can be removed from a character if that character is to stay in a settlement with the relevant temple.
(4) Characters who have 6 ancillaries, can have one ancillary transfered to another character (in order to allow the spawing of other ancillaries).
(5) The special ancillaries created by Marcus Camillus - the legion, field and Consular army traits, the quaestor of Roma trait - can be transferred by the First Consul but only to characters qualified - or about to qualify - for them and who are staced with suitably sized armies. eg legios => ex-Tribunes with 10 years experience etc.
Participants, Consuls and avatars
1) The player with the savegame is the (First) Consul and plays out a “reign” of 20 turns unless (a) their avatar dies; or (b) they resign the post (including resigning for premature re-election).
2) Participants must elect to join the upper or lower house of the Senate. Participants may switch between houses at any stage by notifying the Senate speaker.
3) Members of the lower house must be willing at some point to act as Consul (play the game) and ready to fight battles manually during the reign of another Consul within 48 hours of notification.
4) Members of the lower house will be assigned a faction member to act as their “avatar” in the game on a first come first served basis.
5) Members of the upper house are not expected to act as Consul or to fight battles. They will be assigned an avatar subject to availability.
6) Members currently without avatars will be “ghost” senators, with full rights.
7) Members whose avatars die will be assigned new avatars subject to the procedures outline above.
8) Members will be periodically informed of the traits and ancillaries of their avatars and will be expected to “role play” them. This will involve respecting bonds of family (e.g. sons should defer to fathers, unless they are “rotten kids”).
9) Dormant participants - who miss two or more Senate votes etc - may have their avatars reassigned.
10) Family members under 30 are restricted to the Uppper House unless there are exceptional circumstances (ie the Senate votes to waive the rule in a particular case). The reported arrival of King Pyrrhus in South Italy is one such circumstance, so it is likely Tiberius Coruncanius and Lucius Amelius will be assigned to the Lower House, by Speaker's perogative.
11) The future Princeps Senatus (Faction heir) will be elected by the Senate on the death of the Princeps Senatus. Future Princeps Senatus will not be disinherited except by a Senate vote in exceptional circumstances (impeachement etc).
Senate proceedings and election of First Consuls
1) A thread will be created devoted to Senate deliberations. All members can post - in character only - any deliberations or thoughts they have during the campaign. The Senate is always in session for debate.
2) Full Senate sessions - where votes are made - will occur in the 3 day interregnums between Consulates; in a mid-term session in the 3rd year of a Consulate; and in emergency sessions.
3) In end-term Senate sessions, members of the lower house have 2 days to offer themselves up for election to Consul by posting manifestos setting out their objectives.
3) Senate members can propose motions that are binding setting out objectives for a Consuls reign. The Consul may ignore this motions at their peril (risk of censure/impeachment). All motions require a proposer and a seconder. Members whose avatars have one or more influence do not need a seconder.
4) There will then be a 1 day period of voting in which Senate members will vote on motions and, if it is an end-term session, for their preferred Consul. One member has one vote plus votes equal to half the influence of Senator’s avatars (rounded up; ghosts have zero influence)
5) The Senate may choose to reward Consuls by awarding them “Triumphs” or they may choose to censure them by Impeachment. Either vote requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate (influence weighted). Motions of thanks and censure require simple majorities.
(6) The Speaker can summon an emergency session of Senate at any time (ie a pause in play). The Senate is always open for deliberation (ie pontificating!) but only votes at a full session.
(7) The Senate can modify game rules by a 2/3 majority, except those deemed inviolable (and marked with an *).
Participant interactions.
1) Members may interact in public in the Senate deliberations thread or in private, via PMs.
2) Members may lobby Consuls for their avatars to be given some assignment (a governorship, time in an academy, field experience, be given a certain ancillary etc) and - heavens forbid - may even let some dealings influence their voting behaviour.
3) Members may not threaten or insult each other, except through public denunciations on the Senate floor. (ie let’s play nice).
4) Members of the lower house whose character takes part in a battle will be PMd by the Consul and asked to play out the battle. They will have 2 days to perform the task; otherwise it will be autoresolved.
5) Members whose avatars are governors will specify tax rates and construction build lists to the Consul at Senate sessions (training troops will be the Consul's responsibility). The Consul may deviate from those instructions (e.g. to balance the books) but will be accountable for such deviations.
The Senate speaker and other Senate posts
The campaign will be coordinated by one person, the Senate speaker (econ21). He will oversee all aspects of the campaign - assigning avatars, counting votes etc. The speaker will have the right to depose any incumbent player who does not provide a timely and satisfactory account of their progress (ie no running off with the savegame and derailing the campaign), but typically this should be done with the agreement of a majority of the Senate. econ21 will also act as a conventional participant in the game but keep this role strictly separate role from the Speaker role (e.g. his avatar is not the Speaker).
The Senate librarian (TinCow) will field miscellaneous queries from Upper House Senators about in-game information (e.g. what cities we hold, where is my avatar etc?) from savegames. In the first instance, Consuls should field such requests but in interregnums etc, the Librarian may help. Lower House Senators are expected to have the mod installed and so can consult savegames directly.
The Senate Fixer (DDW) will advise on technical issues around the RTR Platinum and Metropolis mod. He will keep the Senate up to date with the lastest patches and tweaks to the mods, helping us to maintain savegame compatibility while avoiding critical bugs and benefiting from essential updates.
==========================================================================
Historical armies: until the Marian reforms, the following rules should be adopted:
(1) There can be no more than one Roman unit per allied unit (generals excepted).
(2) Roman infantry must be deployed in the ratio:
2 hastati: 2 principes: 2 velites: 1 triarii
(use common sense where this exact ratio is not possible - e.g. 1 hastati, 2 principes is ok but 1 hastati, 2 triarii is not)
(3) No more than two ranged foot units (slinger or archer) per stack.
(4) No more than four cavalry units (excl. generals) per stack.
Typically, players should aim for two kinds of armies:
(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).
(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies
After the Marian reforms, half the stacks should still be allies (auxiliaries).
Roman units should be in the ratio: 1 first cohort: 3 legionnaires.
So a half stack army - a legion - could be:
1 First cohort; 3 legionnaires; 1 general + 5 auxiliaries
And a full stack army - two legions - could be:
2 first cohort; 6 legionnaires; 1 general; 1 artillery
+10 auxiliaries (one slot can be a second general, a tribune)
Equites should be disbanded and not recruited after the Marian reforms.
Platinum sounds good...Romans sound good too. Anyone else?
If it's long, has complex rules, is hard and involves playing Romans you can count me in. I've got to do something between now and MTW2, don't I?
Oh you'll need complex rules. RTR Romans are too easy otherwise, even for the likes of myself.
OK, let's think about some houserules.
I think it goes without saying that this should be a "roleplaying" game - players will play "in character" and try to make some good stories. Charging at windmills and idiosyncratic personal goals are encouraged, so long as they do not make life too hard for other players (e.g. no disbanding all your armies).
Beyond that I propose that the theme of this game be "Conquest" (~:doh: ). We should aim to conquer all the factions that Rome actually did conquer and each player should dedicate their reign to targeting one of those factions.
Specifically, I propose:
(1) VH campaigns; M battles
(2) No retraining, except ships and full units (to get upgrades) :nurse:
(3) No extermination:hippie:
(4) Fleets can only transport on a 1:1 basis (e.g. one tireme: 1 unit) :captain:
(5) Historical armies - see below :book:
Notes:
1. Target factions: :viking:
The game should last until the following factions are destroyed:
Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul, Spain, Numidia.
Other factions (Parthia, Germany, Armenia etc) could be targeted but don't have to be.
2. Historical armies: :book: until the Marian reforms, the following rules should be adopted:
(1) There can be no more than one Roman unit per allied unit (generals excepted).
(2) Roman infantry must be deployed in the ratio:
2 hastati: 2 principes: 2 velites: 1 triarii
(use common sense where this exact ratio is not possible - e.g. 1 hastati, 2 principes is ok but 1 hastati, 2 triarii is not)
(3) No more than two ranged foot units (slinger or archer) per stack.
(4) No more than four cavalry units (excl. generals) per stack.
Typically, players should aim for two kinds of armies:
(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).
(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies
After the Marian reforms, half the stacks should still be allies (auxiliaries).
Roman units should be in the ratio: 1 first cohort: 3 legionnaires.
So a half stack army - a legion - could be:
1 First cohort; 3 legionnaires; 1 general + 5 auxiliaries
And a full stack army - two legions - could be:
2 first cohort; 6 legionnaires; 1 general; 1 artillery
+10 auxiliaries (one slot can be a second general, a tribune)
Equites should be disbanded and not recruited after the Marian reforms. ~:mecry:
What do people think? Anyone dislike some of the above rules? Want to add more?
[EDIT: The following rules were proposed but have been withdrawn - see discussion in later posts.]
(6) On receiving the savegame, each player except the first must immediately make three announcements :director: (a) their primary target faction; (b) their secondary target faction; (c) their most favoured ally.
(7) Each player will then play until their primary target faction is destroyed (success! :2thumbsup: ) or their leader dies (failure :no: ). Players who start their turns with leaders aged over 55 can play on after their leader dies :skull: .
(8) Secondary target factions must be raided :duel: - the player must enter their territory and try to destroy their field armies, but must not take any of their cities.
(9) All other factions (rebels are not a faction) can only be defended against - their territory cannot be entered, except in hot pursuit of a repelled invading army. :ballchain:
(10) Most favoured allies must be given military support if attacked and at the end of each turn must be given any excess gold in the treasury above 50,000. ~:pat:
(11) The first player must play until South Italy, Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia are Roman, then retire. :sorry:
Whew... I love the army requirements and would like to suggest one more. No army should be allowed to leave Roman territory unless it has a General in command.
I've got issues with 6 - 10, but I've got to run off to work and can't get into it now.
Add Melite (not sure about the region's name) the city to the first player's objectives. It's just a small island south of Sicily.
Seleucia and Egypt seem to be quite ambitious targets for Rome, seeing how Egypt was claimed because of a marriage and the Seleucid Empire was not actually conquered by Rome, at least not all of it. Can the 'must be destroyed' factions be made protectorate instead?
Also, can mercenary units be merged with normal units? eg. the Italian cavalry. Or should the mercs be treated as separate?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
BTW, isn't RTR 7.0 due soon? Thats what the RTR website said last time I checked - which was like 2 months ago :inquisitive:
Ok, the general problems I see with 7, 8 & 9 is that it will be practically impossible for anyone to elimiate any faction within the reign of one faction leader. RTR is designed to play slowly as it is, so we'd be essentially making rules that would make each player fail their goals. In addition, concentrating only on conquering the 'primary' target will create very strange and un-realistic borders. For instance, say one player takes on the Greeks, forcing him to expand into Ionia. This would bring Rome into conflict with the Selucids. If Selucia then became a major threat that had to be dealt with (primary enemy), we could find ourselves with an empire that stretched all the way to India, without ever having sent a single army north of the Alps. That just doesn't seem right.
Here's an idea though:
The Senate
We're playing in the Republic, right? No single man had total power during that time (ignoring Sulla, et. al.) so why should we? How about this... at the end of every player's turn, he/she must post a picture of the world (FOW on/off?) and a general description of the economy, military and enemy strengths/alliances. This can be VERY brief, it could be done in a few lines dashed out when the game is uploaded. The rest of us would then vote on objectives to be assigned to the next player. If the player achieves those objectives, they are 'successful' (forum equivalent of a triumph?) and if they do not, they have 'failed.'
The nice thing about this is that the requirements could be incredibly varied. It could be as simple as, "Conquer the Italian Peninsula." However it could also be something like, "Take provinces A, B, C & D. Build X building in city E. Obtain the maps of faction F. Build 2 fleets each with 2 decs, 4 tris, & 6 birs."
Now, this would require the non-players to check back in here regularly... so active commitment to the PBM would definitely be required. However, this would also provide some interesting interaction for the non-players as well.
The Senate idea is a very interesting one, TinCow. I like it a lot. Let's explore the mechanics of how it could work.
Here are some ideas - anyone feel free to propose alternatives:
1) The Senate will consist of all faction members in the game. Each participant in the PBM will choose one faction member to be their avatar (e.g. on a first come, first served basis). When their avatars die, participants can be reincarnated in another faction member. When new faction members come of age (or otherwise enter the game), a participant will be assigned to them. Participants may retire at any time, releasing their avatar for another participants. If participants go awol and persistently don't vote etc, their avatar may be assigned to someone else if there is a queue. Participants need not necessarily be players.
2) Players will be elected First Consul for 10 years (20 turns) or until their avatar dies (if sooner). For role-playing purposes, it is expected that players may seek immediate re-election and may even try to reign continuously until they die (ie be dictator for life). However, this will require winning Senate votes every 10 years.
3) Senate members may lobby First Consuls for their avatars to be given some assignment (a governorship, time in an academy, field experience, be given a certain ancillary etc) and - heavens forbid - may even let some dealings influence their voting behaviour. Senate members should try to role-play their avatars - e.g. one who hates smelly barbarians should not propose allying with them. Incumbent players should keep Senate members abreast of any new vices and virtues they acquire. Family relations between avatars should also be respected - sons should usually defer to fathers etc, unless role-playing rotten kids.
4) When a Consulate ends, the incumbent player shall post an end of reign report to the Senate. This will be in character, but include a screenshot of the map, the savegame and a description of the key facts (allies, enemies etc). Players deceiving the Senate are unlikely to garner many votes.
5) On receiving an end of Consulate report, the Senate will be in session for 7 days. During the first 4 days, prospective players - including the incumbent if he/she desires - will campaign for office and submit manifestoes proposing objectives for their prospective Consulships. Senate members may recommend objectives, but it will up to prospective players to include such recommendations in their manifestoes (which can be revised at any time until the end of the fourth day).
6) At the end of the fourth day, the speaker of the Senate will confirm the list of candidates and the Senate will then have three days to vote on which should be the next player. The speaker will collate the votes cast and announce the result.
7) The campaign will be coordinated by one person (the Senate speaker). He/she will be immortal and will oversee all aspects of the campaign - assigning avatars, counting votes etc. The speaker will have the right to depose any incumbent player who does provide a timely and satisfactory account of their progress (ie no running off with the savegame and derailing the campaign), but typically this should be done with the agreement of a majority of the Senate. The person acting as speaker will also act in a seperate role as a conventional participant with an avatar, the possibility of reigns etc (and be strictly impartial in the speaker role). I'm happy to do this, although other volunteers such as Xiahou Liao or TinCow are welcome.
What do you think? I am trying to get something concrete that allows players to set the agenda for their reigns but also gives the Senate the ultimate power to decide Rome's fate. It will only work if there are enough participants to make it lively, but the fact that participants don't actually have to do anything may mean we can attract PBMers who may not have the time to play a reign at the moment.
If people like this idea, we may change the way we do write-ups. It might be better to have real time "letters from the field" or other propaganda to document a reign, rather than wait for long conventional write-ups. Similarly, Senate members may want to agitate during a Consuls reign, by commenting in character on events, making demands, denunciations or even paeans. I'm thinking of having a "Senate proceedings" thread for all in-character stuff (only).
I like all of that, though I would like to give some sort of power to the Senate to end a Consul's reign if he is particularly irksome to the rest. Perhaps something like 3/4 vote to 'impeach'. This would allow some force behind Senate votes to do this or that during a campaign. Ignore the body too often and you'll be done... unless of course you assume full dictatorship by refusing to upload a save game. :P
As for the running commentaries from both Consul and Senate, that would be great... but it would require the Consul to play relatively slowly. If someone zipped through and did their reign in two play sessions (like I tend to do) there would be no room for any dialog and developments. We could respond to this by asking people to play no more than 5 turns every day or something, but how long do we want this to go for? Can we keep people interested and active for that long?
While I find these ideas incredibly interesting from a role-playing perspective, I'm very concerned that this will require too much dedication to work properly. There's no point in doing a Senate like this unless we have at least a half dozen people who are willing to regularly post and role-play. Given the lackluster responses most PBMs get, I'm not sure if this is possible. Maybe we should be advertising in some of the more frequented forums.
I'd participate in the voting, but I have no time or the writing skills to do the PBM. Just have a vote once a decade, as econ suggested.
Also, wouldn't it be a bit difficult for a non-player to role-play their character? The traits change so often it's hard to keep up. :confused:
OK, I agree a running commentary from the Senate is not very feasible. Let's assume their involvement will largely come during the Senate sessions - their traits will also only be updated then. (I'm thinking of making trading ancillaries against the rules, except by the mutual consent. I was even wondering about weighting votes by influence). I agree personally I tend like to blitz through my reign in a week (or weekend) rather than pace myself.
It's true that to make this interesting we will need around six active people. But we've got at least 3 already - me, TinCow and Tiberius. IIRC, we only start with 4 Roman faction members in RTR anyway. Perhaps we can have some "ghost" Senate members - ie who have not been assigned avatars yet. I think some weeding out of sleeping Senate members will be required - let's say miss two votes and your avatar is reassigned (if there are some active ghosts without avatars). The limit on participants will steadily grow up to 40+, but we might be able to fill that by involving some Org stalwarts (e.g. staff) who like Tiberius may not actually want to play out a reign[1]. We could advertise more widely - even in the RTR website - but right now I'd like to get a hardcore of PBM veterans interested to see if we have critical mass.
An impeachment rule is ok, but I was thinking of a more cooperative model for participant interactions. :laugh4: Maybe that kind of thing might come in to play if we manage to attract a large number of active participants. If it is just a handful of us, we may not want to go at each other's throats.
I am wondering if I should start a new thread - with a different title ("The Senate needs YOU" or something) - to see if we can involve more PMers. Are we happy enough to go public?
[1]EDIT: Although, I am thinking that this PBM may involve much less writing than previous ones - incumbents only need produce a manifesto and a report. So the burden of writing need not put you off playing a reign, Tiberius.
Well I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd love to play, and like the idea, so I don't see what's wrong with a little advertisement. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
I bet loads of members don't even know the throne room exists.
As for the whole senate Idea, I like it. I'd be happy to participate even though time at the moment is scarce...
Meaning...
...would be good for me. :2thumbsup:Quote:
It will only work if there are enough participants to make it lively, but the fact that participants don't actually have to do anything may mean we can attract PBMers who may not have the time to play a reign at the moment.
:balloon2:
I think this PBEM has excellent potential! Count me in, though only as a back bencher until I get my WRE write-up done! Definately publicise it, and I believe their is a PBEM community on the .com, it may be worth asking them along.
If I may offer several points
Rules 6,7,8 as suggested by Simon now seem a little bit superfluous, not to say confusing. Now that we will have a Senate dictating the Consuls actions, I think the need to declare your enemies/objectives has been superceded. However, a candidate for the Consulship may declare his intentions to make war upon a particular faction as part of his election campaign.
I nominate Simon as the Speaker - he effectively operates that role in the Throne Room anyway :bow:
I also think that as a way to keep the campaign ticking along, and to increase realism, all battles should be auto-resolved unless the player (Consul)himself is the general on the battlefield. By doing this we may lose a few more battles than we would normally, but it could also precipitate crises that would require Senate intervention and the dispatch of a PBEMer led army to deal with it. This also raises the possibility of having a PBEMer who isn't currently Consul being sent a save game by the Consul in order to fight just one battle, before returning the save. Thus players who may not have the time to do a full reign can still actively participate in the full game. MSN might be useful for co-ordinating activity like this, maybe even Senate sessions?
Finally, an addition to the army make-up rules. No family members under 30 to be Generals or Governors. Under the Cursus Honorum this very rarely happened. Instead, send 19 year olds out to serve as Legates in an army in the field led by a family member.
OK, I've posted a call for players at the RTR Platinum forum:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20179
Hopefully we'll get some interest. I'll make similar calls in the Org in due course.
[EDIT]: Some very interesting ideas, there, Mount
I think rules 6+ have been overtaken by events, so I've edited the relevant post to make that clear.
Autoresolving is a biggie. I've never done it but I'm interested in what other people think. The idea of involving non-incumbents in fighting particular battles sounds fun, but may slow things down. I'm thinking of dividing the Senate into two houses - lower (like your frontbench), where members want to play out turns and upper (like your backbench) where there is no such implied commitment[1]. We probably should prioritise avatars for members of the lower House and so expecting them to fight out ad hoc battles would not be unreasonable. If they forfeit - e.g. don't respond to the call to battle within two days and so the battle is autoresolved - the Senate may look unfavorably on a future candidature for the First Consul.
On the age thing, I have similar restrictions in my own games. I like the "true Roman" guidelines on the RTR tips and strategies sub-forum - teenage youngsters first stay at an academy, then sometime in their 20s become military tribunes (2nd general in a stack) etc. But I am not inflexible, as I can't help thinking of outstanding generals and Kings - not Roman, I admit - who were ridiculously young. So if we have an ambitious young thing with lots of command stars and we were in a desperate situation, I might let him have a command. I'd be tempted to make it a guideline, rather than a hard and fast rule (maybe the Senate might have to authorise violations of the rule? perhaps ex post).
Not sure about MSN - I don't use it and would rather try to use this forum - and PMs - to try to build up a collegiate spirit here.
On reflection, I like your proposals but let's get other views.
[1]Participants would be able to switch between upper and lower Houses of the Senate at any time.
When you talk about sorting out Avatars do you mean we will actually have our avatars on the Org changed to reflect the avatar of our in-game character? Cool ~:) I also suggest that to help each other out we also alter our custom member titles to the name of our in-game character.
I think you are correct to not be totally rigid regarding the Cursus Honorum. IIRC Pompey Magnus was only 19 when he got his first command and Scipio Africanus was also quite young (under 30) when he was given command to fight against Carthage, but like you said, exceptional individuals in exceptional circumstances (civil war and imminent annihilation). And I'm sure we can create ourselves a Boni faction, spouting off about the Mos Maorium and such ~;)
*trots off to read "True Roman" guidelines ~:) *
By "avatar", I was just using the term in the role-playing sense to refer to the faction member in the game that represents the participant. (I still feel I need a shower after being Shodan's avatar in System Shock 2...:sweatdrop: ) It would be nice if all or most Senate members had an in-game representation. But adopting appropriate Org graphical avatars and custom names sounds neat.
The "true Roman" guidelines are at:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=12035
They give lots of good ideas and information.
This is sounding very promising. Autocalc for all battles not supervised by the playing Consul himself makes a lot of sense and would vastly increase the interaction. This would definitely be a much slower progressing game, but I think it could be very interesting. It would also be relatively undemanding for most people, just checking the forums regularly (which I do anyway) and responding.
We don't even have to 'win' in any real sense. Just playing it like this would be the interesting point. Politics, battles, back-stabbing maybe... that would be the goal in and of itself. Are there any mods out there that increase the number of turns per game year? The slower this went, the longer people would get to play their specific avatars.
edit:
After reading those guidelines, not only do I think a lot of them are perfect for us, but I think that the RTR forums may be the perfect place to recruit. Anyone who likes that kind of play style may also like our interactive version of it.
Good point, TinCow - there are "four turns per year mods" (FTPY):
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...showtopic=8656
Currently, one possibility is the "FTPY mod for Platinum". I'd like to use a Platinum mod so we can use 1.5 RTW as I am getting sick of fighting rebels in 1.2 and also IIRC there are some bugs (save/reload? charge bonus?) etc.
I've tried to recruit on the RTR Platinum sub-forum - feel free to make your own announcements in other forum. In response, LestaT said he would join if we used his Imperator II mod. This includes the FTPY mod and is designed for Romans specifically, so I think it is ideal for us. But it is still a beta and we can't have CTDs messing up our PBM. We should check on the status of the mod when we are about to start.
FTPY is also incorporated in other mods which we should investigate (and maybe try out).
I am quite keen to start this going quite soon - maybe next weekend? But I'd like some more old-time PBMers (and newcomers!) to sign up here first.
I played an old version of RTR and enjoyed it but I'm largely out of the loop when it comes to RTW modding. As such, I'll go with whatever mods and config edits everyone else agrees with. The complexity of installing mods and such is not an issue for me. I'll do whatever is decided.
I may actually download RTR Platinum this afternoon to see what has changed since last I played.
Edit:
Urrr... I'm only seeing RTR 6 Gold. Where is Platinum?
The download link is in my post #2 above.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
And for future reference (inc. mine!) the 4TPY mod for Platinum is at:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...0&#entry251110
Thanks, I have made a fresh install and will be using Platinum and the 4TPY and Metropolis mods for it (and the extra music). I'll check it out later tonight. Gotta make a run to the wine store first though; you can't properly celebrate the slaughter of stinking Gauls unless you're sipping from a nice bottle!
Nevermind - see post #2
This is sounding more and more excellent. I really hope we can get a few folks together for this one. I wonder if the folks in the chapter house would be interested? Its the kind of thing that's right up their street.
And I like the idea of using Influence as a weighting factor, nice way to represent the clients of a Roman patrician ~:)
Also like the 4 turns per year thing, makes for a more realistic game in a couple of ways. First, it allows for a "campaigning season" style of play where you stick all your troops in a fort for the winter. Secondly, a consul's reign is only 5 years that way - I know historically they only had 1, but special commands, such as Julius Caeser in Gaul could be up to 5 years.
*drums fingers whilst waiting for RTRPE to download*
Pleease allow the extermination of Carthage as a single exception. Pretty please?
Also, thanks for the recommendation that I play econ, but I'm at a boarding school, so I can't play RTW. The upload website is blocked anyway. I can't actually get onto totalwar.org, but luckily the forum isn't blocked :2thumbsup:
By the way, don't elect Quintus as a consul. He's just some randomer. When the RTR campaign starts, Decius Laevinius and Tiberius Coruncianus were the historical consuls. I recommend that both stay in a city, and they'll soon develop into characters with incredibly high influence and management. Laevinius should take Paestum and then settle, Coruncianus should have the city east of Roma (forgot the name) until he overtakes the other character (Amulius?) in management. Remember not to make taxes on VH all the time though, as it makes the governors stingy and hence squalor increasing.
OK, Tiberius - I'd be happy to have you in the Upper House. But who knows, the campaign may keep going until one of your vacations and you could pick up a reign?
Mount - thanks for reminding me about the parallel with the interactive histories. I've put a call for players in both the Chapter House and the Colosseum. Hopefully, we'll have some new players come over.
I'm starting to wonder if we could make more of TinCow's original idea of Senate missions. Maybe during the interregnum's, the Senate could propose and vote on motions ("Carthage must be destroyed") quite independent of the manifestoes. First Consuls could ignore the Senate missions at their own peril (or could incorporate them into their manifestoes).
Before we launch this, we should provide direct links to every file that will be needed and specific instructions on what to install first and any extra editing that will be required. It looks like we'll be using a lot of mods and we'll want to minimize any technical problems.
Will we be using the Metropolis mod or some other mod that removes most city walls? Siege: Total Realism is a bit of a pain. Also, it would probably make Senators whose avatars govern un-walled frontier cities aggitate for a stronger city garrison and such.
I'm really liking the idea of handing off the save game to a specific Senator for a single battle if that Senator's avatar is attacked in-game. It will definitely slow this thing down, but I think it will make it much more interactive and highly amusing to boot.
As far as the 'missions' go, we could do something like a mandatory legislative period at the beginning of each consulship. After the save has been uploaded (allowing everyone who wants to to see the state of the world in detail) we could require a one week (or longer) debate period before the next Consul can play. During that time period, the Senate can propose objectives for the next Consulship. Each proposal can be voted on by the group and all that are accepted will be included in the final list. Individual Senators could gain assests for their own benefit (e.g. new academy building in the city they govern, stronger garrison) by refusing to vote for an objective that is borderline unless the others agree to 'fund' the side-project. Essentially... politics. :D Voting blocs could work well here and might result in the rise of a 'party' system.
Also, even though there are only 4 'of age' family members at the start of the game, there are 3-4 underage ones as well. We could instantly assign these to Senators so that they would know what their name and family relation would be from the start, rather than being nameless participants. As soon as they turned 16, they could be placed in a proper position befitting their situation.
The more I think about this, I'm beginning to think that we won't really need a write-up of any kind at all. Regular posting by the current Consul about the world would be more than enough. He could even upload the save several times during his Consulship to allow everyone else to see the status without having to go into crazy details. If enough people post regularly in "The Senate" (thread) and stay in-character, that should be all the write-up we need.
On the issue of mods, the constraint seems to be that we can have one other mod with Platinum - either 4TPY or Metropolis or Imperator II. We can't combine more than one (although Imperator II includes 4TPY).
If we went for RTR Gold, we could have the combined Imperator+Metropolis mod:
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=16953
This would give us (a) tighter economy & more threats for Romans; (b) fewer walls; (c) 4TPY. ie everything we want. I've tried it and it is good. But there is the downside - it is for RTW 1.2 - ie uncontrollable rebel spawn and save/reload bug etc.
Personally, I'd vote we go for RTR God + Imperator + Metropolis, as the Platinum mods and Platinum itself seem to be more works in progress (e.g. people seem to be constantly tweaking the unit stats etc), whereas we know Gold etc has no CTDs and will not be revised anymore. But if other players prefer the 1.5 TW engine, I'd understand (I've played so much RTR and EB, 1.2 does not bother me).
It would be good if we could agree on the mod in the next few days, as it might influence whether people want to join in.
On the missions, I agree - I am inclining more to a missions than a manifesto approach, although there's no reason we can't have both. I am wondering if we should have more regular Senate meetings. Say a mid-term? So Consuls play 5 years (4TPY) and sometime in the 3rd year must report back and submit to Senate missions (and possible impeachment). And give more chances for Senators to lobby for favours.
I agree about assigning the under-age and the write-ups, although maybe Consuls may want to write dramatic (and self-aggrandising) battle reports to win favour with the Senate.
There is also the Metropolis & Naval Mod for Platinum, which includes the 4TPY mod as well.
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=20000
How about there must be a mandatory legislative period prior to the beginning of a Consulate term. After that, we can require the Consul to post regular reports to allow us to debate before continuing the game. The Senate could then say whatever they want during interrim sessions, votes there would be 'binding' as well, though it's possible none may be proposed or none may pass. This would also allow for personal requests and favors between the Consul and individual Senators.
However, if we are going to have an effective interrim debate period, we will have to limit the speed at which the Consul plays. Perhaps something like no more than 1 game year (4 turns) per day, with a maximum of 5 game years per week. We could require an update at end of each 'year' (1 real time day) about events, though that update could consist of:
"Not much, a couple buildings and some recruitment."
If things are going too slowly like this, we could always pass 'legislation' requing a report only every 2 years. The Senate could be used like this to change the very rules/mechanics of the game itself.
Well spotted, I'd missed that. I am a little worried about the last update being only 3 days ago - my point about being a work in progress - but I'll try anything once.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
A system of yearly reporting to the Senate (& playing a maximum of one year per day of real life) sounds good to me.
Very important point, agreed.Quote:
The Senate could be used like this to change the very rules/mechanics of the game itself.
BTW, I've now posted calls for players in the Entrance Hall and the M2TW forum, as well as the Colosseum and the Chapter House. I've also posted in the RTR website AAR section, as well as the Platinum sub-forum. Hopefully we'll get some newcomers to the Throne room expressing interested by posting in this thread.
I'm currently playing a campaign with the Metropolis & Naval Mod. Seems to be working fine; I'll let you know if I see any bugs.
Im interested but i dont have time over the next few days to read this entire thread. Can someone give a quick overview? Thanks.
Ok, brief summary:
This will be a PBM where the entire body of participants contributes to the on-going campaign, whether playing the current 'round' or not. We will all be members of the 'Senate' and will generally decide what will happen through debate and voting on the forums. There will always be a single 'Consul', elected by majority vote in the Senate, who will be responsible for playing the actual game itself. He will serve for a 5 year term (20 game turns, using the 4 turns per year mod) and his actions will be reported back to the Senate regularly.
Each Senator will represent an actual Roman family member present in the game. You will know your traits, family connections, etc. All battles will be auto-calc UNLESS the general of the army is the current Consul. In addition, if a Senator's in-game family member is involved in a battle, the Consul will pass off the save game to that Senator for that single battle. Essentially, you will control everything involving the family member that represents YOU in the game. Using politics you can negotiate with other Senators and with the Consuls to get postings to the best cities with the best academies, to be assigned leadership of legions or even to be the next Consul yourself. Alternatively, you can sit back and simply aggitate as a member of the Senate... passing legislation (requirements that the Consul must try and fulfill) and otherwise politicing as you please without needing to play any turns. When your character dies, you will be assigned a new one when one becomes available (probably instantly).
We're still working out the finer points, but that's the gist of it. Oh, and it will be played using the Rome: Total Realism mod and some other sub-mods.
This sounds like a great idea, I'm in, lower house.
Comments on rules. I'm for the manifesto idea, but also senate directives, or missions, and at least one senate session during the consul's term. But I'm not sure that we should slow the player down. Instead he could play at any speed, while providing regular reports. The senate would not be in session, and there would be no formal deliberation. But once the consul hit the middle of his term, he would pause. Senate would enter session, deliberate things, and perhaps issue directives. Once they're done, the consul would continue.
Additionally, the senate speaker would perhaps have the ability to call an emergency session at any time, should something come up, which would, possibly pause the game again while the senate is in session, or would perhaps not. Perhaps the speaker would have two types of emergency session to call. I haven't quite made up my mind on this part.
And thirdly, there could be certain actions which the consul could not undertake without the permission of the senate, like starting a war, for example, but also possibly other things like forming an alliance, or even getting a ceasefire.
Definately! :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYdude
My proposal: We start off at war with the Greeks. I say take the 2 rebel settlements first and then drive Pyrrhus' army off Italia and send them man himself to an early grave. After that, Taras and Croton should be lightly defended, and then taking Rhegion allows us to concentrate our efforts on whoever we want: the Carthaginians in Sicily or the Gauls in Cispaline Gaul.
Anyone up for a vote now?
By the way, could we disallow younger members to join the senate? Also, unless they're closely related to the most influential member or the faction leader, we shouldn't allow any randomer to join the senate. I've played 2 RTR Roman campaigns, and Decius Laevinius always seems to turn out as a bit of a useless waste of space with almost no positive traits whatsoever. We should have a minimum of, say, 1 influence and 1 in command or management to join the senate, unless well-connected.
Also, if we follow TinCow's suggestion of one week's deliberation and voting, I don't think I'll be on for long enough, unless I just take command for a few short years of 1 week each. I'll also be unable to take command if attacked, so my character should be auto'ed unless I've stated that I'm in a holiday.
I disagree completely! :rtwno: See, we're arguing like Roman Senators already! :ave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
Membership of the Senate was by birthright, not by ability. Being an in-bred, stupid, arrogant buffoon shouldn't bar someone from the Senate, indeed some Patricians would regard them as virtues suitable for the Consulship! :2thumbsup: Half the fun for me would be the role-playing of all the different avatars, good and bad. Birth, breeding (and money) are much more important to a patrician than ability. If we get a moron as Consul, so the better as far as I'm concerned ~:)
As for age, whilst 30 was the minimum age for membership of the Senate (though there were exceptions, eg Julius Caeser), I think for gameplay purposes, limiting avatars under 30 to the upper house is a good comprimise between historicity and fun.
Finally, war with Greece. Well, I'd have to wait till I see the state of the game at the start, and see which traits my avatar has before I decide on that. The Roman Senate was notoriously mistrustful of wars and foreign adventures - costs money you know! :2cents:
Good to see some new faces here - welcome, FLYdude and shifty157. ~:wave:
Let's pencil in RTR Platinum with the Metropolis mod for now, so people can install that and try it out solo. I'd like use to elect a First Consul by Friday, so he/she has the weekend to play. People can table proposals like Tiberius has done to prompt discussion. I'll gradually formalise things so that we have some direction by the end of the week.
Based on the discussion so far, proposed new/ammended rules:
(1) Declarations of war, alliances and ceasefires require a Senate vote.
(2) Family members under 30 are restricted to the Uppper House unless there are exceptional circumstances (ie the Senate votes to waive the rule in a particular case).
(3) There must be an mid-term session of the Senate during the 3rd year of a Consuls reign.
(4) The Consul should provide regular reports - e.g. annual. The pace of reports may be specified by the Senate.
(5) The Speaker can summon an emergency session of Senate at any time (ie a pause in play). The Senate is always open for deliberation (ie pontificating!) but only votes at a full session.
(6) The Senate can modify all game rules by a 2/3 majority.
Also, I've been thinking about involving Senators with avatars more in the game. Fighting out their own battles is the biggie, of course. And players will want to lobby for command, over strategy etc to this end. But for governors, I think they should be allowed at each Senate session to set their own taxes and construction priorities (we'll leave training units to the First Consul). The First Consul may deviate from those instructions with reason (e.g. he has to balance the books) but of course there may be a political price.
I'm going to PM some of the other active PBMers to see if they want to join in. I'd like to start calling the Senate to order over the next few days.
EDIT - LATEST RULES ARE ON SECOND POST OF THIS THREAD AND WILL BE CONTINUOUSLY UPDATED:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=2
Technical question. I d'loaded and installed RTRPE last night. I got it to boot up, past the intro to the menu screens. But every time I tried to start a battle or a campaign I got a CTD.
I think it might be because I'm not using a "clean" install - I copied my RTW folder, which includes things like bug-fixer. I did this cos I couldn't figure out how to manually install a fresh copy of RTW, all the CD wanted to do was let me uninstall my original install.
So how do I do a clean install of RTW without deleting my original install? :help:
Oh, and I thought BI was meant to include a mod-switch so you could play numerous mods on 1 install?
Well, you are doing better than me, Mount - I can't even download the mod!
One thing you could try is deleting a file "map.rwm". That is sometimes necessary for some mods to work.
Already did that.
EDIT: Looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and uninstall then reinstall
Econ, I've seen your post in the Chapter house, good initiative !
Maybe you should also post one in the colosseum, which has a lot more viewers than the chapter house.
Further more, this idea is getting better and better, I like what FLYdude mentioned earlier:
This makes the senate a real force to deal with, and makes them as important as they were historically. Also, it gives the players in the senate - who don't actually play a reign - the chance to influence the game.Quote:
And thirdly, there could be certain actions which the consul could not undertake without the permission of the senate, like starting a war, for example, but also possibly other things like forming an alliance, or even getting a ceasefire.
:balloon2:
Hi everyone and thanks SA for the PM ~:wave:
I've had my eye on this thread over the last few days but have not wanted to commit as of yet. The end of next week is my year-end at work and as I work in the Finance Department I will be a little busy. I'm sure I will still find time to check out the org every day though. If you want me to participate in a limited capacity then I offer my services :bow:
:charge:
He already did that you fool, think before you post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
:balloon2:
Thats the great thing about this PBEM, you can tailor your participation to your free time. Got a week off? Run for Consul, or campaign for a governorship. Busy at work? Sit in the upper house and vote now and thenQuote:
Originally Posted by YAKOBU
:2thumbsup:
One other rule I've just thought of - it was one of Kukrikhan's old ones, but is arguably the best single rule for a PBM: the incumbent player must post every two days. It could just be a holding message ("Busy with domestic duties."), but it should help stop people disappearing for weeks - and eventually for good - while everyone else loses interest. It would fit particularly well into this PBM, with its emphasis on reporting to the Senate and taking up a reign when you have the time for it.
Are you sure you removed them both? I had the same problem and it turned out there are two copies of map.rwm, in different folders. When I removed them both, it worked fine. The two folders were:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi
...\Data\world\maps\base
...\Data\world\maps\campaign\imperial_campaign
I shall try it tonight and see.
Can anyone give me the .zip file of 1.5? I've got multiple copies of RTW and I can't remember which the original is...
I did a fresh install and downloaded 1.2, 1.3 and 1.5 from here:
http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/r...downloads.html
Econ,
Do the upper house members get assigned an avatar too, or is that limited to the lower house members - who do the playing.
I take it they both can, but would like some assurance on the matter.
:balloon2:
Avatars will be assigned to everyone when they become available, though it would make sense to give lower house members priority.
Having played for a while with RTR Platinum and the Metropolis et. al. mods, I have to say this will be fabulous from a role-play perspective. There's so much detail in the added character traits. Faction members come of age as students and are meant to spend the first 4 years in an academy (building one in Rome should probably be one of our first priorities). After that they advance to tribune, where they are meant to act as a second in the field armies. Beyond that their careers continue in great detail, indicating their seniority and influence. There is even a large number of traits dealing with family issues. All in all, I'm very impressed.
Dutch_guy eventually there will be plenty of avatars to go round, so everyone should get one. Indeed, this may be an important incentive for the Senate demanding conquest - more provinces => more faction members! But early on, family members are scarce and so priority will go to the lower house, especially those wanting to stand for Consul immediately.
Which leads me on to...
Given the aim of getting this campaign going by next weekend, the immediate priority is assigning avatars to members of the lower House. At the start of the Rome campaign, there are only 4 adult family members ("avatars"), so only a maximum of 4 players can stand for election as Consul. There are also 3 under-age avatars to be assigned.
So, please post below in this thread picking one of the 3 options:
1) Lower house, candidate for Consul
2) Lower house, not a candidate for Consul at the moment
3) Upper house
Priority in assigning avatars will go to candidates, then other lower house members. Where there are ties, we'll go on a "first-come-first-served" principle, where this applies to the first time you posted in this thread, not to the when you post confirmation. The deadline for confirming participation is 6pm UK time Tuesday 23. I will then assign avatars. People may still join after that date, but they may then have to wait for avatars.
Notes:
If you pick option (1) you are confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it (ie you've started up a campaign with no crashes etc).
(b) you who would like to start the campaign of next weekend
If you pick option (2) you are confirming:
(a) you have successfully installed RTR Platinum and the Metropolis mod for it.
(b) you could fight a battle at 2 days notice if their avatar gets into a scrap.
If you pick option (3) you are confirming that you will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.
Remember, you can always freely switch between houses, but avatars will be assigned - and re-assigned - in order to give priority to lower house members. We don't want to autoresolve battles involving faction members.
EDIT: updated list of provisional participants in post #2. .
Just to confirm, I will enter the lower house and stand for Consul. :eyebrows:
That sounds good, thanks for the information.Quote:
Dutch_guy eventually there will be plenty of avatars to go round, so everyone should get one. Indeed, this may be an important incentive for the Senate demanding conquest - more provinces => more faction members! But early on, family members are scarce and so priority will go to the lower house, especially those wanting to stand for Consul immediately.
As for now, I'd like to pick option 3
Oh and by the way, do members of the upper house vote on who get's assigned consul, or is that just for the lower house, or for both - if there even is a vote on the matter.Quote:
If you pick option (3) you are confirming that you will be an active member of the Senate, voting on elections and motions etc.
:balloon2:
Confirming I will enter the Upper House but may step down to Lower House but not be a candidate for Consul if needed.
:charge:
Both - the whole Senate votes on elections, on motions etc. Every member gets one vote + one vote for each point of influence their avatar has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
The only distinction between the upper and lower house is that lower house members are expected to be available to load up a savegame - e.g. to fight a battle. Upper house members need never load a savegame (or install the mod etc), although they can always step down into the lower house when they want to get involved in a more hands-on way.
Sure, I'll take a seat in the Senate too. Upper house, please, with nice views.
EDIT: Just had a thought. Members of the Senate need not be members of the family, so we can use the ones provided with vanilla RTW from all 4 roman factions too, as avatars, I mean. And only for the upper house, as they will not actually be in the game.
EDIT 2: ok, last thing. Could anybody please post a map of the world as it is in the mod at the top of the IC thread? It'd be handy to be able to see where cities and provinces are for the senators when making decisions...
Ok. Some problems im seeing from a logisitcal point of view. Each player fighting his own battles will be a nightmare especially as the empire starts getting bigger and there are more generals. And theres no way to save the game right before an AI stack attacks meaning that other players definitly wont be able to run their armies as a defensive.
I think players should be able to play for more years at a time. 5 is too few. Especially considering that some generals may have to spend a significant number turns walking all the way to the front line. This wont be such a huge problem in the beginning but itd take much much more than 5 years to get from Italy to Egypt. It also doesnt give the player much time to prepare an army and then complete the conquest.
What I think might be better is to give a handful of players an area of influence. These are granted upon request by the senate and give a player full command of armies in a certain area and against a particular enemy. The grants could have other conditions as well when granted by the senate and could be revoked or changed at any time. Obviously this makes playing slower and more troublesome because each turn would have to pass through several players, each player playing through his own area of influence.
For example one player may have southern italy and Sicily while another player may have Gaul and a third be granted the Southern Balkans. A fourth player may petition and be granted Iberia.
It basically gives players more control over their own characters and more room to role play. This would remove the role of the Consul as prime military dictator but it would showcase better later Roman senate politics with alliances and betrayals etc.
Players should give a detailed report to the senate every year. This will include screenshots with arrows indicating the movement of armies, markers indicating battles (both successful and unsuccessful), cities gained and any other information the player wants to add.
Players will have full control over the cities which they conquer until a point when the senate deems that the cities are under no immediate threat and can be fully incorporated into the empire.
OK, some interesting ideas there, shifty157. :bow: Unfortunately, I don't see them working for this campaign and would rather press on with what we have. Maybe we can try out the present rules and then reflect on the experience? Other campaigns under different rules can always be tried at a later date (or simultaneously).
Anyway, detailed responses to your proposals follow:
You can save a game in the pre-battle screen (just press escape and save). I do it when I am attacking. I don't believe it is ruled out when the AI attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by shifty157
In my experience, it need not be a nightmare even in a larger game as the Consul can do most of the fighting. I do that as a matter of course in my BI Roman games (due to loyalty problems). The Consul might want to pick a "trusty sidekick" to start a second front, but then they may want to pick a player who is quick and responsive. This is the downside (and upside?) of being in the lower house - you have to be available for fight battles promptly.
I say we give it a try. If things fall apart, we'll just autoresolve (ouch!).
We're playing a 4 turns per year mod, so 5 years = 20 turns. That's the norm for a PBM and believe me it is long enough (especially end game). You can always stand for a second term and even try to go on and on. It's an important point about being in the right place, but that's one reason for an ambitious Senator to lobby the Consul to make sure your avatar is not assigned to a backwater.Quote:
I think players should be able to play for more years at a time. 5 is too few. Especially considering that some generals may have to spend a significant number turns walking all the way to the front line. This wont be such a huge problem in the beginning but itd take much much more than 5 years to get from Italy to Egypt. It also doesnt give the player much time to prepare an army and then complete the conquest.
In my experience with PBMs, momentum is everything. Interest lasts a few weeks and then they often fall apart. Slowing things down any more than this campaign will already do could be fatal, IMO. Swapping savegames every turn is my explanation for why Myrdaal's valiant attempts at a multiplayer campaign have disappointed him.Quote:
What I think might be better is to give a handful of players an area of influence. These are granted upon request by the senate and give a player full command of armies in a certain area and against a particular enemy. The grants could have other conditions as well when granted by the senate and could be revoked or changed at any time. Obviously this makes playing slower and more troublesome because each turn would have to pass through several players, each player playing through his own area of influence.
Again, this may be too onerous. Writing an AAR takes time - often an evening. I want Consuls to report every 2 days. But I'd prefer to leave the level of detail up to the player. What you specify would be appropriate for the mid-term and end-term reports, though.Quote:
Players should give a detailed report to the senate every year. This will include screenshots with arrows indicating the movement of armies, markers indicating battles (both successful and unsuccessful), cities gained and any other information the player wants to add.
I'd like governors to be able to recommend taxes and construction build lists, but ultimately the Consul will decide (although if he overrules the governor, there may be trouble).Quote:
Players will have full control over the cities which they conquer until a point when the senate deems that the cities are under no immediate threat and can be fully incorporated into the empire.
Sorry to be so negative about your proposals. :embarassed:
Would you like to confirm your involvement in this PBM?
Option Twee for me sir.
So if a senator from the lower house gets elected for consul, does it mean he plays the next reign and gets transferred into the upper house?
By the way, can we just siggify the avatar? I like my Mongol warrior right now :tongue:
He plays the next reign, but I would like him to stay in the lower house. Ex-Consuls might be the most reliable people in terms of picking up savegames if their avatar is in a battle. Furthermore, PBMs tend to end up with a few hardcore players finishing them off (ie recycling players). Indeed, I'd like to give Consuls the chance to try for immediate re-election if they feel they have some unfinished business. The Senate can always vote for a challenger instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
No problem. Juliius Caesar let in some Gauls to be Senators. We've just let in a Hun. :inquisitive:Quote:
By the way, can we just siggify the avatar? I like my Mongol warrior right now :tongue:
Shush. Complain anymore, and I'll sack Rome. So there. :2thumbsup:
Just to say I've had a PM from Glaucus confirming that he would like to be in the Upper House; he may move down to the Lower House when he's installed the mod.
So, econ, now that we have the rules laid down and six confirmed members, when will we start? Should we try to get ten confirmed first?
Simon, in the IC thread, you have a Lucius Aemilius listed, but no picture/details :huh:
Pencil me in for the lower house, pending me getting RTRPE to work... :computer:
I'm in for the Lower House, but not in the running for the first Consulship (out of town for Memorial Day weekend; will be able to post, but not play).
I like the idea of adding the actual avatar's influence to the vote, but I think a direct 1 to 1 for each influence point could be heavily unbalancing. You could have two Senators out-vote 20 others! I would like to suggest the additional votes be given out at the rate of 1 for every two, preferrably three influence points. Keep in mind, the most powerful Roman Senators won votes simply by swaying the rest via debate, bribery or other means. No reason why that can't work here either. I'll tell you for a fact that I'll be far more likely to vote for someone who promises to give me one of his more valuable retainers than for someone who offers nothing. After all, I'm Roman. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by econ21
I grabbed this off of the RTR gallery. It doesn't show individual cities and provinces, but I don't know where to find a map like that. It would be huge!Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsMaster
https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b..._final_664.jpg
Wow, nice find, TinCow!
I've already chosen Tiberius Coruncianus right? If I'm the character and am allowed to control him, could I request a governorship of Ancona to train up my skills? (Very) High taxes for a short period of time is enough to get Coruncianus to 10 management in no time, to provide Roma with an excellent govrenor. :2thumbsup: So far, I've got him to that level in 2/2 Roman RTR campaigns. I also propose that I begin training Triarii at immediate effect in Ancona, to fill up the two Legions with Triarii.
I thought about it and I figured that SwordsMaster was right, it really would be very useful to be able to see the actual cities and provinces without going into the game. As such, I created the "Senate Library" for the posting of reference materials that would otherwise clog up the other threads or get lost. Anything of an informative nature can be posted there and I have started it off with overview maps of the areas of the world that will be most significant in the beginning of the game.
Senate Library
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
Cool. Good job.
I've been thinking about the whole influence thing.
Here's my conclusions:
A member of the senate with high influence can "outvote" another senator, if he has more influence. This is done, by subtracting the influence of the rival from your own, and if the result is >0, the other senator doesn't get to vote at all (this can be considered as uncovering some shameful behaviour or bias that would prevent him from inervening). Thing is, there exist the possibility of alliances, so if a senator is part of an alliance, the influence of the whole alliance is used for the calculations. This is why politics are important, a senator with a good base of allies and people who owe him favours, can dictate law.
Now: alliances would work on a "per vote" basis initially, i.e., someone can owe you a "favour" - one vote - without commiting themselves to the party.
In general, what I mean is, the only men who actually decide the outcomes are them men who have influence left untouched by the end of the voting sesion.
Example:
4 senators: voting a motion:
A: influence: 7
B: 2
C: 4
D: 8
If senators A and B are "teamed up" for the vote, they can "absorb" the vote of senator D if he votes against them, and therefore get 2 votes (A and B); but if a different vote is carried out that same session and senator C votes against the coalition, even though he has less influence than senator A, they would only have 1 influence to withstand him, and would lose both vote A and B.
Don't know if it looks too messy...
Thank you Econ21 for upgrading my status and your kind welcome :2thumbsup: Also thanks for the kind welcome by other people who might read this. You know who you are.
I'd like to apply for option (1) Lower house, candidate for Consul. Mind you, I'm new to this, so if I make a mistake in protocol I apologize in advance. Still, I find this all very interesting and will share my views on the process in a further post when I've reread all the post for the third time :)
Finally, FYI, Marcus Camillus, a God-like contributor to RTR, has also made himself available for this project. His post can be found in the RTRPE thread.
OK, looks like things are warming up here.
Mount - I'll put you down for the lower house. I think Lucius Amelius is in the in-character thread, but maybe I've put the labels in a confusing place (below the pics).
TinCow - excellent job with the Senate library. :2thumbsup: As Speaker of the House I appoint you Senate Librarian (ie miscellaneous queries for in-game information from Upper House members - e.g. from savegames - please direct to TinCow. Lower House members are expected to have already installed the mod and so can load the savegames directly). If you accept, as compensation, I will propose a motion that the first librarian ancillary (do they exist?) spawned in the game be given to your avatar. If this motion is passed, any Senator refusing to surrender said librarian risks a vote of censure or worse.
TinCow and Swordsmaster - on influence and voting. I am sorry but Swordsmaster's voting scheme hurts my brain and as I will be one collating the votes, that's not good. :shame: Influence may be unbalancing with a small Senate, but as we get more faction members and hopefully players, it might be ok. But as a compromise, let's go with:
one member = one vote + (influence points/2), rounding up.
If people can veto trading ancillaries, we might find few become very influential (except ex-Consuls).
Tiberius: avatars will be assigned on Tuesday evening. We will then open the Senate for in-character debate and organise elections promptly. I would like the first incumbent to be chosen by Friday evening, so they can start playing on the weekend. Unfortunately, priority will go to members of the Lower House but some rapid conquests should spawn enough avatars for all Senators.
Death destroyer of worlds, or DDW as you've said you would like to be called for short, welcome! ~:wave: I'll sign you up for the lower house and candidate for Consul.
Marcus Camillus has confirmed to me that he is joining the Upper House. :bow: He will only be active after early June though.
MILITARY
There are some (perhaps obvious) rules I would like to add/propose :
1. Never move the capital
2. I think 2 units of cavalry would be more appropriate for a full stack, of which only one should be equites (excluding generals).
3. Don't use any dirty AI-foolishness tricks like dragging an army around the walls of your city.
4. Using the general offensively (except if the character has the bloodthirsty trait or something like that) should be minimized. The general should be used as an 'eagle' unit for morale boosts.
For all the rest of the army/character stuff I also recommend Quintus' guide of Conduct (http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...owtopic=12035).
An intersting discussion on 'correct' Roman Legions (http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=14498)
POLITICS AND OTHER
A) I think it is possibile to switch savegames around at first when non-consul characters become involved in battle, but I'd recommend against it, as the danger of losing momentum will be great.
B) No character should be assigned a military command unless he actively campaigns for it in the senate (I'm the man for the job !) and then the consul should be allowed to fight the battles with these non-consul characters on the battlefield instead of autoresolving them. This gives the risk of someone getting seriously upset as his character is killed in battle by the consul, but then he should not have lobbied for the military command in the first place.
C) I am against autoresolving battles with armies lead by characters as the results are wildly unpredictable.
D) I'd advise updating the playing platform RTRPE + metronaval (which includes 4TPY) at the last possible moment of this campaign start as improvements are still coming in. Just yesterday, 09:58 PM, an improvement was added which is a best-case solution for the 'phalanx bug', which I would almost say is a vital improvement. (details : http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...c=18729&st=100)
E) I would make the voting completely individual, including private deals and schemes behind the scenes, lobbying for votes and handing out and cashing in favours. So I do not favour an offical alliance system as this would lead to the situation of a few powerful spokepersons of the different factions and greatly lessen the amount of debate.
For the rest I more or less agree with the consensus that has already been reached. These are all suggestions of course and their inclusion or rejection do not effect my decision to play at all.
I agree with the change to 2 units of cavalry, only one equites, since this means more allied units and more accurate. I, as said before, would like to join the upper house, and am looking into downloading RTR when I'm done with the Selucid PBeM. I have a quick question though, say Econ and DDW are both in the lower house and have an avatar guy in-game. If Econ tells DDW he'll give him his "Tribune" ancillary in game if they vote together, then how does it get transferred? I was under the impression, and correct me if I need correcting, that the Consul is the one actually playing in-game. So would we have to tell him to change it around for us?
Thanks, Glaucus, Upper House Guy
Hiya Glaucus,
Yes, I expect the consul would be obliged to perform these actions (after getting the go-ahead from both members to prevent doubledealings).
Also, and I can't believe I missed these obvious things, I would like to suggest changing the following campaign settings :
A) VH campaigns; M battles -> VH/VH
In my experience, the AI needs all the help it can get.
B) Large unit size -> Huge
It makes for more realistic (and fun) battles IMO. Also, it bring the size a legion close to its 'real' size. You need a good computer tough.
C) Timer on -> Timer off
There is nothing more annoying then sieging a huge city. It is almost impossible to capture it in time if it is defended by 3 units.
Some interesting ideas, DDW. There's a risk of overloading players with rules, so I would like to distinguish between "inviolable rules"; "Senate rules"; and "guidelines".
"Inviolable rules" are things that are so crucial, not even a Senate vote can alter. e.g. no retraining below full strength units. Typically these are to reflect phsyical or logical constraints; or ways in which we as players should interact.
"Senate rules" are rules which could be waived by a Senate vote. Typically, these would be policy issues about in-game strategy or political issues about Senate procedures etc. In this class, I would include "never move the capital". I could imagine a situation in which the Senate might wish the capital to be moved (e.g. WRE in BI) but you are right, a Consul should not be able to do this on a whim.
"Guidelines" are rules which players are encouraged to follow, but which they can deviate from without resort to a Senate vote. For example, 2 cav per stack. Generally, it's good and I do it in my games. But again, I can imagine situations when it might be violated - e.g. if fighting horse archers or in the desert, and you need more mercs/cav; or if you have a tribune leading a cavalry raid into enemy territory etc. Going back to the Senate does not seem appropriate here. Bear in mind, with no retraining, our cavalry units are likely to get depleted very fast, so 4 depleted units might not be an unreasonable amount of horse.
So on your proposed military rules, I suggest treating (1) as a Senate rule; the others as guidelines.
On the non-military stuff:
>> A) I think it is possibile to switch savegames around at first when non-consul characters become involved in battle, but I'd recommend against it, as the danger of losing momentum will be great.
Let's try passing the savegames - they offer the most direct interaction of Senators in the game. I suspect it will be unproblematic early on; but may be an issue as the Republic grows.
>>B) No character should be assigned a military command unless he actively campaigns for it in the senate (I'm the man for the job !) and then the consul should be allowed to fight the battles with these non-consul characters on the battlefield instead of autoresolving them. This gives the risk of someone getting seriously upset as his character is killed in battle by the consul, but then he should not have lobbied for the military command in the first place.
Again, let's try the "pass the savegame" thing first. If Lower House members can't fight their own battle in 2 days, they shouldn't be upset - joining the Lower House means you have undertaken to be available to fight ad hoc battles at short notice.
On command appointments, let's not make hard and fast rules here, but I suspect jockeying for such appointments will be a key issue for Senate interactions.
>>C) I am against autoresolving battles with armies lead by characters as the results are wildly unpredictable.
Yes, "ouch" is my view of autoresolving. But let's try to avoid it by Lower House members doing their duty.
>>D) I'd advise updating the playing platform RTRPE + metronaval (which includes 4TPY) at the last possible moment of this campaign start as improvements are still coming in. Just yesterday, 09:58 PM, an improvement was added which is a best-case solution for the 'phalanx bug', which I would almost say is a vital improvement. (details : http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...c=18729&st=100)
Very important issue. Patching our games is a potential nightmare with such "work in progress" mods. (Hence my earlier inclination for RTR Gold). There's a trade-off between messing about too much, involving potential compatibility and coordination problems, and being stuck with bugs. I agree let's update on Friday. Whether we update beyond that, is a bridge we will cross when we get to it. Would you be willing to keep an eye on progress with Platinum and Metropolis, and field tech queries about them? If you are, I will appoint you Senate Fixer and see pass a vote that your avatar be rewarded with a suitable ancillary.
>>E) I would make the voting completely individual, including private deals and schemes behind the scenes, lobbying for votes and handing out and cashing in favours. So I do not favour an offical alliance system as this would lead to the situation of a few powerful spokepersons of the different factions and greatly lessen the amount of debate.
Voting will be individual, in the sense that everyone will have to post (in public) their vote. But if alliances emerge organically (e.g. a Cato-style anti-Carthage party vs a peace party), I think it would be rather fun.
EDIT: on the preferences (VH/M; large; timer on), those settings are the ones we almost always use in PBMs here, so I would like to stick with them for this campaign. Your suggested settings may scare off less experienced players (and me!).
No comment on the difficulty settings, I'll go with whatever the preference is. I always win, regardless. :D
Units size... I'll go with Huge if you want since I have a beefy computer, but in the past this has proved problematic for PBMs since the Large to huge jump represents a major performance slowdown for players. This drastically impacts playability for anyone without a top-of-the-line machine.
I agree on timer off.
As far as being 'Librarian,' that is fine with me. I'll be happy to post pertinent screenshots of the world from uploaded saves whenever they appear.
Interesting question. Yes, you have it right - they would have to ask the Consul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glaucus
It raises an interesting issue of how much control over their avatars Lower House members should have. Personally, I think there's a danger of "too many cooks...", so I think the general rule, is that they can ask the Consul to do things with their avatars but can't demand.
Thus, the members can ask the Consul to trade their ancillaries. But the Consul can decline - e.g. if he really needs those faction members to stay put to avoid riots etc. However, in the case of such requests, the player controlling the Consul should act in good faith (and in that respect not play political games - e.g. he should not turn down such requests to punish/frustrate the voting bloc created by the trade). And he will be accountable - he should explain to the frustrated Lower House members what happened. And they can always censure, impeach, not re-elect etc. the Consul if they disagree with his decisions.
[EDIT:] I'm still holding out against the Timer Off. I've had no problem taking huge cities. And the time constraint is so crucial in war, as in life. Being saved by the timer when defending is one of the things I love about TW. "Give me Blucher or give me night".