The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations

This thread is devoted to in-character communications about the Rome Total Realism Platinum PBM explained here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...29&postcount=2

For all out of character business - including volunteering to join the campaign - please post in the above thread.

This thread should be for Senate business only. Consul reports will be in a separate thread.

On a personal note, I will post in two strictly separate capacities: as Senate Speaker (which I will preface by SENATE SPEAKER and write in normal type) and as an ordinary participant (which I will preface by the name of my avatar, currently Quintus, and write in italics).

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https://img380.imageshack.us/img380/9671/map2809ba.jpg

Italy in 280BC - Rome holds only three provinces: Roma, Capua and Ancona


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SENATE ANNOUNCEMENTS, 270 Summer

The Senate will meet for an interim session in Autumn 268 BC.

SENATE SPEAKER: Order! Order! Senators, please take your seats! The Senate is in session.

The deadline for electing the First Consul is Friday 6pm UK time.

The deadline for submitting Senate motions is Wednesday 6pm UK time.

Voting in the elections and on motions will be possible from Wednesday 6pm until Friday 6pm.

Now is the time to propose motions and give direction to the future First Consul, whoever he may be.

Senators, the situation is critical! King Pyrrhus has landed in south Italy with a large army. Rome herself is in danger. Now is the time for you to make your voices heard. What must be done to save the Republic?

Now, gentlemen, order! Order! Do not all try to speak at once. The portly Senator over there, you Sir! You have the floor! Go on, man, speak!

Well, what's there to say? Pyrrhus, military genius of our time, some have said. Some have even claimed him to be the heir of Alexander in warfare! We must not allow this threat to march around our lands. Rome's interests in Italia must be defended! The annihilation of Pyrrhus will win over the hearts of the Italians, and leave the settlements Croton and Taras ripe for picking. I propose that the Epeirotes be driven off our Italian soil and sent to an early grave! I recommend that the Senate send Senator Quintus to this critical battle. His years of experience and strategic skill are Rome's best hope.

We are not invincible, though. In the case of defeat, I suggest that the Senate raises a Third Legion of the Republic from our current Italian holdings, to protect our Republic from attack. We should also send out diplomat to the east, and persuade the barbarians he meets to trade with civilised Romans. Who knows? Perhaps they will see the light, and rid themselves of their barbaric customs, and adopt civilised Roman culture. In particular, we should pursue friendly relations with the Gauls and Illyrians as we are locked in war with the Greeks. Perhaps even an alliance with the Illyrians against the perfumed Greeks would be beneficial to us.

Fellow Senators of The Glorious Republic of Rome, I address you. Our civilized nation lies at a cross roads, to the north lie the barbaric hordes of Gaul, while to the south the Greeks plot to undermine us.

I second the motion of uniting southern Italy, by destroying Pyrrhus's army and then assuming control of the towns in the south. The Greeks must fall hard and soon if we are to maintain control in Italia. Quintus is indeed the best choice, let us give him both legions and may Mars guide him. In the meantime, I propose we hold off the taming of Gaul. Appease them by signing a trade agreement. I propose the new Third Legion be sent north, to gaurd our lands in case of invasion from the north while we pacify the south.

Also, I propse we get a trade agreement with a more civilized power. Carthage lies across the sea, on land that, who knows, may one day be ours. I propose we get a trade agreement with them also, what helps two parties obviously cannot hurt either in the short term, and we need all the money we can get, in order to supply the Third Legion.

ab cedo ab area
I yield the floor

Fellow members of the senate of Rome, it is now that we lay the foundations for our still young empire, we must not flounder !

Therefor I say we must - in order to save the republic of course - deny these barbaric greeks to set foot in our beloved Italia !

We must drive out this Pyrrus with our mighty legions, this must be done as soon as possibly can. If left unchallenged he'll surely make an effort to take Paesium and Corfinium, when he has those Rome's but a half years march away !

We must meet him in the field, destroy him, and claim southern Italia - Our Italia !

Once the south is fortified, croton and tarentum taken, we must make contact with the Carthaginians, offer them the right to trade with us and then proceed to build up our trade network in all the coastal area's.

We must concentrate our Legions on one enemy, being greece. So we should send diplomats to the Macedonians and Seleucids, they'll be honoured to aid us in our battle against the Greeks.

The problem called Greece should be removed, now is the time !

Further more I second Tiberius' motion which calls for the need to raise a Third legion, one cannot trust our northern adversaries -the Gauls amongst others.
It is therefore imperative we make sure they won't get tempted in any way.

To quote my honorable college Glaucus, ab cedo ab area

:balloon2:

Senator Glaucus, what purpose would sending the Third Legion North serve? The Gallic scum will be weakened by fighting the arrogant yet admittedly dangerous rebels, and I propose that we allow them to weaken each other, before we pounce. No, the Third Legion should be used to secure our core provinces, or to expand the glory that is Rome towards the South. Your proposal that we open up trade with the Phoenicans is a sound one, but should be as friendly as relations with the sons of Dido shall get. Let us not forget that the rich Carthaginians are descendants of Dido, who has proclaimed that her people will eventually come into conflict with the noble sons of Aeneas. We shall have to be on guard in the South, and squeeze money out of their flowing coffers if possible. I advise that a diplomat be sent to Sicily to secure trade rights immediately, and "persuade" them to give us some money, in exchange for our assistance against rebellious slaves or even the Greeks if they require it.

My noble colleague from the Netherlands, Senator Dutch_Guy, I disagree. After they are expelled from Italia, the Greeks are no threat to us. Let us then proceed to trade with them, while we build up our forces to the next major threat: the mighty city of Carthage to the West. The stinking Gauls will be held back by Legio III should they choose to attack, which they will do so regardless of our behaviour. They are stinking barbarians, after all. Once they take Ariminium and Arretium, they will be sufficiently weakened for Legio III to take. Let us be swift, and attack them before they have a chance to prepare!

My fellow senators, what is this violent attitude displayed by my esteemed collegae Tiberius ?

Should we not first look closer to home, to the rebellious Latins in the south in the ungrateful cities of Corfinium, Paestum and Rhegium, and the raiding Etruscans in the north in the vengeful cities of Arretium and Armenium, before we strike wildly and unpreparedly at the Greeks ? The Greeks are unwelcome visitors to the peninsula, I must agree, and eventually should and will be persuaded to leave the peninsula and return to their homeland one way or the other, but this is not our first priority.

Should we neglect our rebellious cousins and strike wildly at the Greeks ? Where will the troops come from, where shall the money come from to buy the weapons and armor ? Will we rely on the Gods to shower silver on us from the clouds to pay for all this ? When has rashness ever been the Roman policy ? Is this the diplomacy of a civilized people ? We have subjugated our neighbour city states Capua and Ancona, but only in self-defense and righteous retaliation, and have the Gods not smiled at us ? Has Mars not given us victory in battle ? I suspect Jupiter would avert his eyes from a people that strike out blindly in anger and our good fortune might flee.

So I say, take heed ! Let us avert the wrath of heaven and first strengthen our position by taking firm control of our rebelious neighbours, forming a strong army and making treaties and alliances with other nations. Let us offer peace to Pyrrhus and occupy our rebellious cities first. If Pyrrhus dares to trouble us then we will be justified in casting the Greeks out of Italy and powerful enough to do it !

I say we immediately gather all available troops and march south, occupying the cities of Corfinium, and next Paestum, before Pyrrhus can sense a weakness. We should also send an emmissary to Pyrrhus to ask for a ceasefire. Then we should leave a praetorian legion of troops in place to make sure that cunning warlord Pyrrhus does not suprise us while we look to the north. With luck Pyrrhus will strike westward instead at Rhegium and become entangled with the powerful Carthegians that live in Sicily. Meanwhile we should raise another praetorian legion and occupy the Etruscan cities of Armenium and Arretium. If the Greeks have still not bothered our cities we should raise yet a third praetorian legion to guard our northern borders against a suprise attack from the barbarians to our north while we march the first and second legion to our southern borders and send an ultimatum to Pyrrhus. Either he surrenders his colonies in Southern Italy or we will be forced to declare war. Strike when we are ready I say !

I second the motion to raise Quintus to the esteemed and elevated position of Consul, and to to ask him to lead our first and second legion to victory over the Latin rebels, and eventually, the Greeks. I also suggest the gifted and skilled Publius Laevnius to lead our third legion against the Etruscans. Meanwhile I suggest sending a diplomat east and a second one to the west to seek allies against Greece and trading partners.

Please let us consider the tactics of the situation. We can talk all that we please about the Gauls and Pyrrhus but let us refer to our current geo-political knowledge upon the map so kindly provided.

We have two legions raised. One rests outside of Capua. The other outside of Ancona. These men are ready to march at a moment's notice. We also command various garrisons throughout our provinces that if called together and with minimal conscription can form a third legion. We must unite the disparate Italian states under our rule.

I propose immediately that we march our legion outside of Capua and reign in the citizens of Paestum who balk at our rule even as they face the army of Pyrrhus. Taking Paestum will require only a small expenditure of man power and we will reap the rewards of increased tax income and a larger citizenship from which to conscript our troops.

Pyrrhus if I interpret correctly will no doubt prefer to march on the more appealing Corfinium and bring it under his tyranny. Though better situated, the Corfinians are staunch in their honor and their pride and they will not yield to him easily though yield they will under such military weight. Though Corfinium will without doubt fall prey to Pyrrhus, it will take its toll upon his army. The seige will delay him and the assault upon the walls will weaken him.

Upon the conquering of Paestum, we will rest that legion and wait for Pyrrhus to finish his feud with the Corfinians. In the meantime we will send our legion stationed at the gates of Ancona north to bring the other Italian states under our banner and to prevent the Gauls from advancing closer to our own mother Rome. Arminium will be brought low first followed by Arretium if the Gauls have not already taken it.

We must draw forth all of our garrison forces and conscript new units to form a thrid legion at the port of Ancona. In this way, we will have two legions with which to combat Pyrrhus' advance and under good leadership he will be stopped.

These are my musings fellow senators. I believe them sound and well within our capabilities. Give me your faith and I can easily do what is nevessary to expand our borders in all directions.

Nay! Pyrrhus' destruction in the Italian countryside will take its toll if he is not stopped immediately. Allow him to take Corfinum and butcher innocent Italians? Never. Our taking of Paestum may bring us tax, yes, but it will not be an available troop centre till many years, as time is needed to tame the less civilised Italian upstarts who reside in Paestum. Sending Pyrrhus' army to Hades will only delay the conquest of slaves by a year at the most, but will secure our holdings and deny him the chance to strengthen his troops and hide behind the walls of Corfinum. Day by day he grows stronger, rallying more troops to his wretched cause: empire building. Personal glory. Tyranny over Italy. And you say we should seek peace with such a monster?

The Gauls, meanwhile, are divided and weak. Once we have secured the southern states of Italia, we should have no problem in taming the barbarians of the north. With their inferior quality of men and tactics, the barbarians should be able to muster up minimal garrisons in their cities, ready for Rome to assume command of. Those smelly barbarians will run from the sound of Roman steel, perfect prey for our green recruits. They do not need to be viewed as a threat in the present moment, let us focus our attention on that Greek from Epirus first.

Gentlemen, do you really think that two small legions are enough to discourage Pyrrhus from attacking further up the Peninsula? Pyrrhus of Eprius is an extremely wily general, and has elite troops to boot. No disrespect to Quintus, but I do not believe he can go toe-to-toe with our enemy at the current state of the legions.

Pyrrhus will have to go through the cities of Paestum and Corfinium before he hits us. I propose we send diplomats far and wide to sell trade rights to raise money. With this money, we can build up a third legion, which by then should be able to destroy Pyrrhus after his troops have been weakened by the taking of Paestum and Corfinium.

Gentlemen, it is clear to me that this threat can be dealt with by numbers alone. He is still far from us; we have time. When the time comes, our fine senator Quintus can lead the combined legions and crush Pyrrhus, driving him out of our homeland forever. We can then concentrate on making the entire peninsula under our control.

Fellow members of the Senate of the only true and glorious empire on earth, I gratefully thank you for taking your time to listen to my humble words. I shall try not to pollute these magnificent airs with empty words. Some of you have already turned their attention to the nation in the south of the Italian boot, but I tell you, my dear compatriotes, you are picking the wrong enemy.
Why should we fight an honourable and, surely, an equally sophisticated and intelligent nation such as the Epeirotes? Why should we turn our arms and gold against a potential trade partner? Why should we sacrifice the lives of young Romans? Why turn against a potential friend in the south when we have a far greater threat spying at us in the north? Whom of you dares to say he trusts the smelly barbarians who call themselves "Gauls"? These worthless rats are soiling the fields where our sons should live. And we should not tolerate that. These Gauls -I can barely pronounce this filthy word- should be driven back behind the migthy Alps, back to the dark forests. Back to where they belong. The wealthy lands in the North are Roman, and they should be claimed for the Glorious and Mighty Rome in the shortest time possible.
And what's more: this people can hardly field anything that can be called an army. WE'LL CRUSH THEM!!!

Before we continue to argue, let me point out some matters of fact, surely these cannot be disputed and therefore we can refer to them as a base of evidence.

1. Pyyrhus has a large army to the south. One legion alone will not be able to defeat him. Thus, the obvious conclusion is we need both of our current legions to move south and fight him. I disagree with the proposition that we forget our good Roman virtues and allow this Greek monster to impose his will on fellow Italians. We must seek battle with Pyyrhus now, before it is to late and he has more of a foothold then he already does.

2. Rome, our mother city, lies in the norhern part of our realm. While this is no immediate concern, it should not be ignored either. We should raise a Third Legion to take Arretrium, thus creacing a northern outpost, more taxes to contribute to our coffers, and a buffer zone between us and the unpredictable Gauls. Brother Tiberius, what is the difference if we have our legion sit here in Rome or move north to gain new lands. Either way it protects Rome, but sitting idly is illogical and unneccessary. Going north will help fund more armies, and more buildings for the honorary People of Rome and her Allies.

3. Though the Gods have gifted us with fine land and a fine river to do trade on, we should also remeber that there are other nations out there. They obviously have materials and goods we ourselves do not have, and we would be wise to exploit this. Let us get trade a agreements with Gaul, Carthage, and perhaps Illyria.

These three steps I feel are neccessary in order to place Rome up with the Gods, as protectors and trading partners with our neighbors.

ab cedo ab area
I yield the floor

Conscript Fathers, we cannot let the threat posed by those effiminate Greeks to the south go un-punished! I agree with the proposal to send Quintus with a Legion to drive them back into the sea! As senior Consul, it is clealry his duty and his right to lead the army in battle. I see that our armies are lacking in Triarii, I am sure that many of our veterans would jump at the chance to re-enlist and serve under Quintus in order to defend their homes and families.

Perhaps we could also look to ally ourselves with the Ptolemites in the land of Egypt, they too are at war with the Greeks. The enemy of my enemy is surely my friend?

But do we really need to raise a 3rd Legion? Can we afford a 3rd Legion? I would rather see that we stick with our 2 Legions, one to protect Rome from raids by Italian rebels and Barbarians, another to attack Pyrrhus. If we were to make peace with the Gauls, we would be safe from their raiding as they would look for easy pickings elsewhere. I say no to a 3rd Legion! Who will pay for it? Who will man our farms once this 3rd Legion is formed at sat around doing nothing but draining the Treasury?

Why attack the Greeks we ask? Why, my lady, because they have the cheek to land on Italia in hopes of carving out an Empire. War has been declared, and we would seem to be cowards to then retreat in face of Pyrrhus. The Gauls, as I have said before, are not an immediate threat. The rebellious cities of Arretium and Ariminium are more of a force than them, which is why we must wait. Wait for the right moment, when the Gauls have taken the cities for us. Wait until they are weakly defended. Wait until the time is right, and then pounce. The filthy Gauls will then be forever banished from lovely Italia, never to be a threat again. But, meanwhile, the Pyrrhic forces are gaining strength, more and more are gearing up for the conquest of Rome. Why not learn a lesson from them? We should gear up for the conquest of Graecia. I will not allow our honour and image to be stained by suing for peace like a scared baby. Roman honour must prevail!

Senator Glaucus: Our third legion shall take Paestum and Corfinium if you insist, but fighting the Gauls at their full strength seems foolish to me.

Senator Suribachi: Why, the conquest of Paestum and Corfinium of course! That, and the ever advancing cities of the Republic, which will certainly fill our coffers by the next decade if managed efficiently and taxed to the maximum.

Members of the senate,

I agree with senator Tiberius that Pyrrus must be stopt now, while he is isolated from his homeland and has no chance of getting any re enforcements any time soon.

I trust that our consul has the needed skill to destroy Pyrrus, even with the moderate amount of troops we have at the moment.

Also I deem it necessary that we save our Italian brothers - the Corfinians - from Greek tyranny which will surely befall them if we do not act !

We must send a message to all in the known world, we do not tolerate Barbarians on our lands !

The Pyrric threat is our current problem, we must deal with this as soon as possible, even if it requires to assemble more soldiers.

Mars is with us fellow senators, Jupiter is watching, let's not let them down !

:balloon2:

I most strongly protest against the suggestions to abandon our brothers of the Latin Confederation. Yes, they may be rebellious now, but they are still our kinsfolk. What will our citizens think ? If we attack immediately, we can beat Pyrrhus to Corfinium, his obvious next target on his vile conquest. With the city occupied and all our forces concentrated next to it, Pyrrhus will not dare attack us and while he stands confused we can send a single legion to occupy Paestum. Then we can start to build up enough strengh to bring the warlord to his knees. I only regret that we will be unable to save our kinsmen in Rhegium by my battle strategy outlined earlier.

I, my fellow countryman, am not in favour of abandoning our Corfinian Kinsfolk.

I suggest to launch a ...what's the word...ah .. Pre-emptive strike on Pyrrus, before he can harm our Latin Brothers.

We must intervene now we have the chance, I - and I'm sure our consul agrees - couldn't live with myself knowing that my latin brothers are in danger of being slaughtered and oppressed !

A fate that is set for them with Pyrrus at their gates !

:balloon2:

To save yourself from these needless worries, just destroy Pyrrhus in one swift stroke. Then, we can worry about the liberation of rebel cities and the Greek holdings in Croton and Tarentum. Our deliberate, decisive destruction of Pyrrhus will surely set an example to other powers, proving ourselves worthy as being descendants of Mars himself. We will also be the undeniable masters of Italia once his body is fed to the dogs, and the rest of the Greeks in Italia eradicated. Once the Greek military presence is no more, the city of Rhegion will be safe from their vile influence.

What good will saving our Latin brothers be if we cannot protect them forever? Surely it is not better that they suffer under tyrant rule and then be under our benevolent arm for the rest of the world than under our rule for a few years until taken over by Pyrrhus?

And what will there be to farm if we don't raise a third legion? If we want to kick Pyrrhus out, surely we must do it right. If we do not, then how will one legion be able to finish this false king off if two could not? For the safety of Rome, we must send all three legions in defense of the southern half of the Peninsula. Our core territories matter the most. Everything else- the Latin states in the South, the Gauls in the north- is secondary.

And Senator Tiberius, isn't what you're proposing overkill? Surely the Greeks will be disenchanted with the prospect of conquering after their best general in fifty years is dead? No, once Pyrrhus is eliminated we should pursue good relations with them. They are a civilized people, after all. Once Italia is ours, we can concentrate on our true expansion direction- into Europe.

I agree GeneralHankerchief

Fellow Senators you fail to realize that we do not have the force to take Corfinium with a single legion. We would have to devote both standing legions to the taking of this city and the subsequent battle would leave us severely weakened and easy prey to Pyrrhus' large army. Let the Corfinians fall for their pride and we will liberate them in short order. Let the Corfinians dull Pyrrhus' sword and we will be better for it. These are of course our Italian couuntrymen but they are not Romans and they disdain our rule and friendship. We owe them no favor.

We need a buffer to our North to protect Rome. Taking these provinces would also help to raise our taxes and allow us to assimilate the peoples sooner. Some wonder where the money for a third legion will come from. It will come from the taking of these two provicnes to our north.

Europe? No, they are merely lands of barbarians. The stinking, dense forests of Europe will open few trade routes, and the lack of resources will do us no good. The Mediterranean is the key to success. The state that controls the Mediterranean, can buy off any potential enemies. Our primary goal should be establishment of trade routes when my plan of Roman hegemony in Italia has been executed, and then raise a fourth Legion to strike at Carthage. Four simeltaneous attacks at Messene, Agrigento, Corsica and Sardinia will without doubt make the Carthaginians lose their financial advantage, while filling up our coffers. The sea is the road to power, fellow Romans.

Goodnight.

Senator Hankerchief,

That is why we must destroy Pyrrus now, so the Corfinians, and all the other threatenend latin brothers will be save forever. Dethroning the current rebel leaders of those cities would cause losses on our side, good soldiers who could have fought the tyrant Pyrrus. After Pyrrus is dead, his head sent to Rome, we will concentrate on bringing South Italia under our benevolent rule.

To achieve that, Pyrrus has to go.

I deem our starting legions fir for that task, with Mars backing our every move Pyrrus won't stand a chance.

Again, so it seems, I agree with senator Tiberius.

Now this senator needs his sleep, and shall call it a day.



:balloon2:

I am glad I misinterpreted my noble collegae. We only seem to disagree in whether we should attack Pyrrhus' army or try to fend him off without bloodshed but with intimidation.
While I completely agree the Greek colonies must submit to our preordained rule an immediate battle with that mighty army might leaven us weakened and prey to our other neighbours. Altough I am confident that Quintus martial prowess would give us victory, it might cost us the war. Where will the troops come from to continue the campaign against the Greeks ? The Greeks have a powerful confederation and might easily send another army from their mainland within a year which we would be unable to oppose with the remnants of our own army. Dare we gamble with our nation's existence like that ? I'll give you the floor to reflect on this, my lords.

It is unbelievably unwise to assault Corfinium. It is too powerful and will require too many troops and leave us too weakened. Let Pyrrhus instead knock at its gates and give us the upper hand with two fresh legions in position to flank his army.

Fellow Senators, think!

We have 4 options on how to deal with the Greeks

1) We can sit and do nothing. Very unRoman and cowardly. Thats out

2) We can give Pyrrhus battle in the field before he has time to react. We can send both legions.

3) We can allow Pyrrhus to let his men die on the walls of our Latin brothers. Where is our honor then? We must help them and give them good Roman rule, not allow them to be terrorized by Greeks.

4) We can go quickly and attack the Rebel towns, then wait while Pyrrhus attacks our walls.

We must decide on one of these, I think the forth option is best, since our Roman legions will surely win against any opponent in the concentrated street fighting.

ab cedo ab area
I yield the floor

Conscript fathers, what is all this talk of far-away conquests??? Do my ears deceive me? Wars of expansion, wars of aggression, talk of "pre-emptive strikes" from Europa to Africa! What is this madness? Since when was this the Roman way?

We should concentrate on defending our own homelands, on defeating those who would start wars of aggression against us, defeating Pyrrhus and his army will bring death and glory enough for all of us.

Defeating foreign aggressors and taming our rebellious cousins next door is one thing, but it seems some of my noble brothers within this august house are already planning foreign conquests in far-away lands, perhaps they woud like to set themselves up as some self-styled Pyrrhus of Rome!!!

I tell you conscript Fathers, I want no part of it!! No part of it!!

I bid you goodnight.

While I appreciate my collegae Glaucus strength of feeling for our latin brothers, I would think it most unwise to fight phalanxes and elephants in the narrow streets of corfinium. Our army's strength lies in mobility and tactics on open terrain. So I say we occupy corfinium and then meet Pyrrhus in the field where our men can fight to their best effect. With this final tought I will leave this noble house for this evening.

What many of my fellow senators fail to realize is that Pyrrhus, by his presence, insults our great republic. How do you suppose this situation appears to other nations? It appears as if any fool, even from an insignificant country such as Epirus, can come to Italy, take what he wants, and threaten Rome. Is that the message we want to send? If Epirus can do it, what's to stop Carthage? We appear weak!

To even have heated debate about this Pyrrhus is dishonorable! The course of action is obvious. We must, immediately, with no delay, attack and defeat the army that threatens Rome, and even more importantly, we must kill Pyrrhus on the field of battle. This would send a warning to anyone else who may have interests in Italy, and would ensure that we would not be bothered by this Pyrrhus again. After that, we may debate about what to do, but our first action is clear.

SENATE SPEAKER: Gentlemen! Gentlemen! These deliberations do you great credit! The range and depth of your wisdom is, in fact, quite overwhelming to a humble person such as myself. By all means, continue with these stirring speeches. But I would, if I may, point out one or two mundane procedural matters.

In this session, you have two great tasks. The first is to elect the First Consul who will lead Rome through the current crisis and for the next five years. As yet, we have three candidates - econ21, DDW and flydude - although their precise identities will only be revealed on Tuesday 6pm UK time. In due course, they will present manifestoes posted here, on the Senate floor. These manifestoes will draw - no doubt - on the wisdom revealed through your deliberations. At that time, I would advise you to take the opportunity provided by this floor to question them and demand satisfaction on the matters that most concern you. Based on their responses, you may then make an informed decision when you cast your vote.

The other great task is less straightforward. You have in you the power to pass motions that will bind the First Consul to whatever acts you direct. Now, granted when in office, he may seek to escape whatever binds you place upon him. But if so, there may be reckoning when he returns here in his third year to account for his progress. On this issue of motions, I have three points to make.

The first is cautionary. Do you need to bind our leader? To deprive him of his freedom to react to events? Think carefully on this. Your speeches may guide him. But your motions will constrain him.

The second point concerns the subject of such motions. We can broadly distinguish three key areas: diplomatic; economic; and military. On diplomacy, the First Consul must come to the Senate first to seek approval for declarations of war, ceasefires and alliances (trade rights he may seek as he wishes). It may be a benefit to our diplomats if you give advance authorisation to specific diplomatic actions, so the ground can be prepared well in advance. On the economy, it may be useful to set broad priorities - what does the Republic need: more troops or more investment in our trade, ports and road? On military motions, we may propose campaigns in specific sectors.

My third and final point is purely procedural. Your words are so powerful that I fear on occasion, they may overwhelm me. May I request that you present motions in writing, using the following format:

MOTION: This house proposes X,Y and Z

Following the format of this script - the emboldening, the italics etc - will greatly assist the scribes in arranging the relevant votes. Keeping the motions simple - ideally one sentence long - will assist them in drawing up composite motions and amalgamating related proposals.

From the debate so far, I can identify two motions that have been explicitly seconded:

MOTION 1: This house proposes that Quintus be given command of an army to unite southern Italy, by destroying Pyrrhus's army and then assuming control of the towns in the south.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconders: Glaucus, DDW

MOTION 2: This house proposes raising a Third Legion.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: Dutch_guy

I apologise if my scribes have reduce the beauty and subtlety of your fine words into such simple motions. If their form of words is unacceptable, proposers may withdraw the motions and substitute more carefully drafted ones.

The heated debates on wider issues than these two motions may in due course be distilled into further motions. There is no urgency in presenting such motions. Let the free debate continue in the hope of reaching consensus. The final deadline for motions to be floored is Wednesday 6pm UK time. And again remember - much of your wise advice may best be presented as guidance for our First Consul, rather than binding motions.

Conscript fathers, I vote in the affirmative on both motions and I urge you to do the same!

On the first motion, it is clear to all with sense that the Greek incursion onto Italian soil cannot be tolerated! Pyrrhus is a tyrant and will enslave Italian and Roman alike if he is not confronted. He must be dealt with immediately, without hesitation. Not only will this free Rome from the threat of foreign invasion from the south, but it will also demonstrate Roman honor and justice to our Italian neighbors. Perhaps after such a display of unilateral goodwill, they will join in a confederation with our glorious state. If not, well... there are other means of gaining their support.

On the second motion, I say it is the DUTY of every Senator to vote in favor. Our legions are mighty, but they are few. It will take all our current strength, and then some, to defeat the Greeks. We may take great losses in such a battle. Imagine, fellow Senators, a victory against Pyrrhus, but one in which our brave legions are nearly destroyed, incapable of sustaining a further struggle. I cannot even begin to imagine what such a thing would be called, but I know I do not want it! We must be strong, both to ensure victory and to ensure that that victory is decisive. Not only must we win, we must emerge strong and ready for what awaits us. Raise a third legion? We should raise a third, a fourth and a fifth! We should call upon our Italian allies in Capua and Ancona to provide auxiliaries as well! Let them demonstrate their loyalty to the alliance we have formed. However, such measures go beyond the scope of this vote. Once this one has passed, as I am sure it will, perhaps then we can discuss an even greater expansion.

Wow, fellow Senators, you sure talk a lot. Forgive me for joining such an advanced session so late, but I fear these matters are urgent enough for me to break my silence and my reclusion in the villa and occupy the seat my forefathers left me.

I second the second motion.

We need an army. I also believe that Pyrrus is not such an immediate threat, and that a legion should be sent south to dissuade him from entering roman soil, but let him turn his attention to the barbarian cities in the south: For our mighty soldiers it makes no difference fighting epeirotes or barbarians on the walls, and they will weaken each other in the mutual struggle.

I propose sending out Consul to annex the cities of Ariminium - a natural port and farmaland - and Arretium to the North to secure the access to Rome, and deny them from the destruction of the Gauls. With whom, I believe we whould make peace for now, until our III legion is raised. Then, we shall drive them north of the Rubicon.

Trade should be established with Carthage, Makedonia (a rival to Pyrrus in his motherland), and our other neighbours.

I believe I said enough, and our venerable president is beginning to doze off, so I will occupy my seat again, and let minds that like their responsibilities speak up.

It seems that the majority of the Senate does not share my thoughts about sending all three legions against Pyrrhus. I respectfully defer to them, and vote Aye on both motions of Tiberius. The threat is indeed imminent.

I just hope that Quintus, or whoever the commander of the first two legions may be, is up to the task. Mars be with him.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: By Jove, is that the time? I must find my deputy to take over this session....

Just a reminder, esteemed Senators. We have two formal motions on the table and others may be proposed until 6pm Wednesday UK time.

Formal voting will start after that time, using some voting procedures my scribes have yet to devise. Strange fellows, those scribes ... they keep wittering about "hanging chads" and other gibberish...

Aha. Well, in that case, my dear Speaker, let me indeed test the waters and retract my votes, since they mean nothing anyway.

Counter-motion: This house approves of the two motions made by Tiberius, but proposes that all three legions be sent to Southern Italia to combat Pyrrhus.

We protect the northen frontier by diplomacy, and create good relations with as many peoples as we can.

Apologies Speaker, I was been praying at the Shrine of Bacchus this afternoon and I fear the formal... er... rituals may have resulted in a slight mental lapse.

It is a good thing that formal motions may still be proposed, though, for I have one that is of the utmost importance to our great city. This morning, as I was walking around Rome, admiring the wonders of civilized life, I suddenly realized that we lack formal institutions of education! Can you imagine? A people as great as us, with the prospects of rapid expansion and armed conflict looming, yet we have no methods of training the young in the ways of true Roman life! Are we to send uneducated farmers to lead our armies? Shall Rome itself be governed by illiterate prostitutes?

It is not enough to deal with the problems of today, we must also plan for the problems of tomorrow. We must invest in the future now, before it is too late! I propose that within the first year of the approaching Consulate, funds MUST be allocated for the construction of an Academy in Rome itself.

Motion 4: This house requires that construction of an Academy begin in Rome within one year.

TinCow's motion is seconded. I think that his arguments need no elaboration.

Be cautious, Senator. You wouldn't want to start building your academy only to have it burned down by the Greek. Rome is under threat. While having an academy is important, it is not urgent. What little funds we have must, regrettably, at this time be allocated to the raising of the proposed III Legion, and other military projects deemed necessary for the very survival of Rome!

It is for those reasons that I will vote against TinCow's motion, and encourage all others to do the same.

We may, and should, build an academy when the danger to Rome has passed.

I second motion 1, 3(GeneralHankerchief's) and motion 4(tincows). Also my fellow Romans i proposes that we seek trade rights with all neutral powers. The Great legions of the republic must be financed.

Motion 5 This house requires that trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Gaul, Carthage, Macedon) in the next two years and steps should be taken to contact all other powers with the goal of trading and spreading roman culture to the whole of the mediterranean within 15 years.

I support motions 1 and 2.

I do not support motion 4 as there are precious little funds to divert to an academy.

I would like to ammend motion number 5 to lengthen the period of time given to 4 years as I do not think 2 years will be enough with a single diplomat and I do not believe it is possible to train a second diplomat at this time.



I propose that we place a current standing legion under the command of Tiberius Coruncanius (governor of Ancona) to march north and unite the Italian states of Arretium and Arminium under the Roman flag.

Fellow Citizens, I understand your concern when it comes to funding an Academy, but it is not my intention that our war efforts should suffer as the result of such an expenditure. I have funded a financial study out of my own pocket and the results have been as follows.

Given a normal tax rate, seasonal income to the Treasury will be an estimated 3,118. If high tax rates were imposed, seasonal income would be 3,636. With a normal tax rate, this means that the Roman treasury would stand at 18,472 at the end of the first year; 20,544 with a high tax rate. Even if Rome and all her allies recruited men constantly for the legions (4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 2 Triarii) this would only amount to 5,140 over the next year. This will be only one quarter of the Republic's Treasury!

I respect my fellow Senators' wishes to prioritize funds for the forthcoming conflict, but I assert to this august body that we have more than enough income to allow for both. Shall we simply store this excess amount forever? Nay! I know that we all expect a Consular construction program to further development both in Rome itself and in the Allied states. All I am proposing is that an Academy be the first priority when the funds are available. I assert to you that such funds will be available and that such an expenditure will not interfere with raising more Legions in service to Rome.

Vote in favor of the Academy motion. The sooner our children are educated, the better the prospects for our future. Need I remind you that several Senators in this very forum have children nearing the age of schooling? Will you vote to educate them in the fields? Shall they learn to plow, or govern? Do not forsake the future of the Republic for the sake of a few dinarii!

I second the following motions:

MOTION 1: This house proposes that Quintus be given command of an army to unite southern Italy, by destroying Pyrrhus's army and then assuming control of the towns in the south.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconders: Glaucus, DDW

MOTION 2: This house proposes raising a Third Legion.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: Dutch_guy

MOTION 5: This house requires that trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Gaul, Carthage, Macedon) in the next two years and steps should be taken to contact all other powers with the goal of trading and spreading roman culture to the whole of the mediterranean within 15 years.
Proposer: Destroyer of Hope.

I agree to everything there except this: "trade rights be established with the regional powers (including Gaul"

MOTION 7: This house proposes that the third legion takes Arminium and Arretium, and that one of the two southern legions also takes Messena.

Noble Senators, what a waste of the Republic's funds. To build an Academy is far less important that securing our borders. Once Pyrrhus has been defeated, Messena MUST be taken, lest the might of Carthage controls all of Sicily.

I support trade with Carthage and Macedon, but not Gaul. Would civilized Rome trade with barbarians? Do you not remember how in the year 395, they sacked our beloved Rome? These desecrators of culture do not deserved to be traded with.

SENATE SPEAKER: Salve, Gentlemen! I see from my scribes that your over-night session has been productive. They have compiled a list of your motions and have posted it at the entrance to the Senate. Some still require seconders.

May I suggest that proposers are free to to withdraw or ammend their motions in the light of debates here. This might help reduce the number of votes I ... I mean my poor scribes ... must arrange. Specifically, Senator DDW, do you accept the proposed amendments to raise the length for seeking trade rights in motion 5 from 2 to 4 years and to exclude Gaul?

By Jove, has the Deputy Speaker fallen asleep?! Wake up, man! The sun has risen!

Now, let me see. What's this note from the scribes? Tut tut tut. They say some of you fine gentlemen, in your anxiety to protect Rome, have forgotten to format your proposed bills in the proper way. Please write MOTION #: Whatever... and do not forget the emboldening, italics... By Jove, have my scribes nothing better to do that whitter on about such things! Pyrrhus threatens Rome and they focus on fonts! Mr Deputy Speaker! Are you awake now, man? Good, well on your way to breakfast, give those scribes a tongue-lashing from me, will you?

Now gentlemen, back to the debates!

I second the view of Senator Ignoramus. Those Gauls should not be allowed to get their greedy hands onto our precious goods, to receive only filthy barbarian trinkets in return.

I propose that our economic strength be built up. An academy? We do not need that yet. There is plenty of time before our children grow up, fellow senators! Before then, what would it be for? Plebs? Plebs do not need an education, much less a state-funded one. All the plebs need to learn is to obey. Now, we need a strong economy to fund out military needs. We have enemies all around us: the Carthaginians may seem friendly, but are our sworn enemies. The Gauls... what is there to say that you honourable men do not know already? Those stinking barbarians will not be peaceful for long. The Greeks. Why, we have already decided to go to war with them! Even if we decided against it, those treacherous men are sure to attack Roman holdings with the army they have mustered. No, there are too many. We Romans are strong. We must rely on ourselves, not trade with others. What if we are at war on three fronts? Then we shall find ourselves with no friends and little trade. Our trade network must be built up from within, not from without.

Motion #6: As for our current military ambitions. I propose that we use the third legion as a defensive army, or to take the rebellious states to our South. The Northern states are wild Etruscans, and could do with a bit of warring with the Gauls. The Gauls will teach them obedience, and we shall liberate them in all our glory, becoming the saviours of the Etruscans. Once they are obedient, we shall be able to free up Legio III to deal with those Gallic troublemakers.

I disagree, Senator Tiberius, what if those Gallic barbarians took Etruia first? Rome would be threatened, and a Gallic horde would be at the gates of Rome. No, we must secure the north.

Good morning Conscript Fathers, the sun is shining bright and clear!

Once again I see that some of us are getting ahead of ourselves! The immediate threat is Pyrrhus! Everything is irrelevant right now - we barely have the strength to fight the Greek incursion, yet still some of you talk of going to war with a super-power like Carthage, or taking on the Barbarian hordes.

We are at war with Greece, so let us concentrate on the prosecution of that war until we are at peace with the Greeks. That may come several ways - they may come on their knees to us begging for mercy; they may accept OUR peace terms; or we will simply destroy them. But this war may be long and bloody, who knows who long it might take or how much it might cost?

As for raising troops - do not get me wrong conscript fathers, I am in favour of recruiting more soldiers, did I not say earlier in the debate that we should be looking to put veterans under arms as we currently have not a single cohort of triarii? BUT, raise a 3rd Legion? Senators, if we were to bring together all our troops under arms we would barely have enough to form one full Legion! Before we can even think of raising a 3rd Legion we must surely have 2 full-strength Legions. I agree with Senator TinCow, we must levy troops from our Italian allies to put flesh on the bare bones of our Legions.

Finally, I agree that we must build an Academy in Rome as soon as funds are available, our young men will be sorely lacking in edumacation without one.

[SENATE SPEAKER]:The scribes have asked for a clarification: Senator Tiberius - there is already an alternative MOTION 6 listed at the Senate entrance. That latter motion seems to overlap considerably with your words. Perhaps you and Senator shifty157 could agree a revised motion?

Apologies for the interruption - back to war ... err, I mean debate.

Oh, what is now, you foolish scribe? WHAT!?! Senator shifty157 declared himself candidate for First Consul and you forgot to put his name on the list!?! Very well, very well. No harm done, I suppose. Sincere apologies to the good Senator, and to the Senate Librarian, for misinforming him. There are now FOUR declared candidates for first consul - econ21, FLYdude, DDW and shifty157. Nominations will close tonight at 6pm.

Honoured Speaker,
After solemn contemplation on the deliberations I accept the proposed amendments to raise the length for seeking trade rights in Motion #5 from 2 to 4 years and to exclude Gaul.

SENATE SPEAKER: Very good, Senator DDW - the scribes have amended the motion accordingly and Senator Ignoramus has been recording as seconding the motion.

The scribes have informed me that they have finalised the means of voting for motions, but that regrettably it will not be possible to vote on amendments. That means any amendments must be decided by the consent of the original motion proposer or, if rejected, should be formulated as rival motions.

The scribes also note that the voting procedures mean that it is logically possible for the Senate to approve two mutually exclusive motions. The paradox of voting, I believe the Greeks call it. Be wary of this, good Senators, for if the First Consul is given two incompatible directives, he will be more than justified in ignoring both!

I beg the senate's pardon by filling up their valuable time by proposing yet more motions for their learned consideration, but I find the current motions on the table do not encapsulate my ideas fully.

Thus I propose the following motions :

MOTION #8: This house approves of motions 1 and 2, but proposes that the third legion should be send north under the command of Tiberius Coruncanius (governor of Ancona) to invest Arretium and Armenium and guard our northern borders.

This differs from MOTION #6 in that we use our third legion instead of a current standing legion. I feel our first and second legion are needed immediately to confront Pyrrhus. A small, but critical enough difference for me to submit this new proposal.

As stated before, my colleagues, we do not have sufficient strength to fight both the Gauls and the Greeks. When we take the Northern rebel states, the Gauls will surely see a chance to snatch them up, as a legion is considerably weaker than the two rebel armies combined.

Senator Suribachi: A legion is composed of nought but half of the full strength of an army. Raising a third legion should hardly put a strain on our finances. This legion should take advantage of the weakened Gauls, when they have depleted their armies at the walls of Arretium and Ariminium.

My lords, one true Roman is worth 10 barbarians at least ! I say our third legion should be more than sufficient to keep the Gauls at bay should they choose to invade from the north.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Noble gentlemen, if I may interject! Motions 6, 7 and 8 all seem rather similar and none has yet been seconded. May I suggest that the proposers work together to revise or drop their motions so that we are left with one or two that are seconded and are clearly alternatives?

It might also assist if motions be kept as simple as possible (e.g. no need to mention Messina if the issue is whether to attack the two rebel towns on our northern borders).

After due consideration here is the ammended MOTION #7:

MOTION #7 This house proposes that the third legion takes Arretium in order to provide a buffer agianst Rome.

This change is that Arminium is left alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiberius

A legion is composed of nought but half of the full strength of an army.

---

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of clarification, being something of a dabbler in military matters myself, I ask Senators to refer to my notes on historical armies posted in another place.

It reads:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by econ21

(a) Full stack Consular armies - 2 legions + 2 alae
2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 triarii, 1 funditore, 1 equites, 1 general
+ 10 assorted allies (one slot can be a second general, a tribune).

(b) Half stack Praetorian armies - 1 legion +1 alae
1 hastati, 1 principes, 1 velites, 1 general, and 1 of either triarii, equites or funditore
+5 allies

---

So technically a "legion" is one cohort of hastati, one of principes, one of velites, one general and one of unit either triarii, equites or funditores.

Please note that by our conventions, if we plan to form proper armies, we are likely to have to call upon our allies for assistance before we can take more true Romans from their peacetime duties. However, given that we currently lack either funditores or triarii, giving priority to their recruitment would be not only admissible but advisable.

Apologies, dear Senators, I am over-indulging in military minutae. Let us abide by the above military conventions, but then leave remaining details of army composition to the First Consul. We do not need to tell him how sharp his swords should be.

I will second Motions 6, 7 & 8. I am not sure which of these motions I personally agree with, but I would like to hear further debate on the matter. Therefore I second them, to allow a proper hearing before this body.

It seems to me that Motions 6, 7 and 8 are very similar in nature, but deal with three crucial differences in the same general topic. All three propose to use the newly raised Third Legion to protect Rome's northern boundry, the question is how this boundry should be guarded. For ease of understanding for the Senate, the difference of the three Motions seems to be:
Motion 6 proposes to keep the Third Legion in our northern territories and to use Arretium and Armenium as buffer states.
Motion 7 proposes that the Third Legion takes Arretium, but leaves Arminium independant.
Motion 8 proposes that the Third Legion take both Arretium and Arminium.

What say you, brothers?

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Ah, Senator TinCow, the scales begin to fall from my eyes!

In the interest of continued clarity, I call upon the orignal proposers of motions 6, 7 and 8 to say whether they will accept the good Senator TinCow's redrafting of their original text in return for his seconding their motions?

I agree with my esteemed collegae's redrafting of the motions.

I would like to thank senator TinCow for kindly redrafting the proposals.

I second motion #5.

My esteemed colleague econ, my proposal of motion number six seems to differ greatly from Senator shifty's proposal. He clearly states that he wishes for the taking of Arretium and Arinimium. I, on the other hand, would prefer to take the Southern states, Paestum and Corfinum with Legio III.

I rest my case.

[SENATE SPEAKER]:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiberius

My esteemed colleague econ, my proposal of motion number six seems to differ greatly from Senator shifty's proposal. He clearly states that he wishes for the taking of Arretium and Arinimium. I, on the other hand, would prefer to take the Southern states, Paestum and Corfinum with Legio III.

---

Once more, I am indebted for to an Honorable Senator for shining light for a befuddled old man.

Now that the proposers have assented, the scribes have redrafted motions 7 and 8 in accordance with Senator TinCow's parsimonious phrasing.

Although Senator shifty157 at present is not in the House, his motion appears little different from the revised motion 8. So in the interests of clarity, I am withdrawing his motion and replacing it with its antithesis:

Motion 6:This House to leave both Arretium and Armenium independent in order to serve as buffer states.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: TinCow

I would also like to second motion number 6 for those who have ''forgotten'', this motion is written as following by our loyal scribes :

Motion 6:This House to leave both Arretium and Armenium independent in order to serve as buffer states.
Proposer: Tiberius
Seconder: TinCow

As I have said numerous times in this debate, and have gotten support from my honorable colleges, the present danger is Pyrrus. We must challenge him in the field with all our military might.

We must not make the mistake to let him fortify his position by taking a settlement so close to our current ones.

Obviously we'd suffer un necessary casualties were we to assault Pyrrus after he had taken up defensive positions in either Paesium or Corfinium.

Further more I would like to give my agreement to the following motions :

3,5 and number 6 - as stated before.

...

War is expensive, the longer it takes the more it costs. Even us Romans feel the pain of an empty treasury. That is why I propose to - instead of an academy - build up our trade networks. Be it with roads, ports or traders.


For I do, I know that 2 legions are enough to destroy Pyrrus in the field, money should be raised in order to spread our influence all over the world be it by sending our diplomats to the far corners of the world, or by sending our armies - but that's a matter of the future,not of today.


:balloon2:

Romans, I will rephrase my suggestion in order to make life alightly easier on our scribes:

Motion 9: I propose thatout Consul with the I legion marches north and extends roman law to Arretium and Ariminium. The II legion should march south and prevent Pyrros from entering roman land, but allow him to disperse his men and resources in the southern italian cities.

I also agree in that tradeshould be seekedwith our neighbours as soon asthis is possible-we can use themoneyto fight Pyrros, rather than rebel slaves. Although I know most of you here would be more interested in the slaves, specially female. But it is the glory of Rome what is at stake.

Nay. O Master of the Swords, the threat presented by this rogue Pyrrhus is simply too dangerous for us Romans to allow him to live much longer, especially if he chooses to walk around Italia with his armies. The threat simply must be eliminated, and any allowance of Pyrrhus to build up a base on our lovely Italian soil is simply too risky, unnecessarily so. Also, sending merely one Legion will surely spell doom for Rome, as the destruction of a Legion and having only one other remaining means that the Greek upstart will be able to take our undefended cities! That is an outrageous suggestion, which I condemn.

Before I forget, my dutch colleague, from reading your posts, I assume that you second motions 1 and 2? Your aggression to Pyrrhus shows you have joined the wiser senators, and your proposal of sending Legio III to capture cities clearly shows that you wish to raise Legio III.

Motion 3 reads as follows:

MOTION 3: This house approves of motions 1 and 2, but proposes that all three legions be sent to Southern Italia to combat Pyrrhus.

So indeed, I do agree to motion 1 and 2.

Motion 3 contains these motions but strengthens my view of the matter. Namely that Legion III will be used to combat Pyrrhus.

Although I do wish to say, not that motion number 1 is unclear at all, that we should only assume control of the cities ( Paesium, Corfinium ) when Pyrrhus is no more.

:balloon2:

Oh, no, Tiberius, you misunderstand. I do not wish Pyrros in Italy any more than you do, but I want him to separate his forces, wreck the solid rock, so that the smaller pieces can be easily engulfed by roman strength.

Our southern legion should only discourage him from a foolish attempt of entering roman territory, fighting defensive battles at most, or, even better, limt themselves to short skirmishes and avoid the enemy until theConsul has finished in the North and can march south with a third legion to - only then - take war to Pyrros.

Our men do not mind who they fight on the walls of Rhegion, but they will be pleased to know that the enemy is not at full strength.

Patience, my friends, is one of the better virtues. If we are victorious at a great price or - Jupiter protect us - beaten by the greek king, it will take us a long time to recover and expand our domains, while if we do as I propose, Rome will be already enjoying the rich northern farmlands, and taxes while having another legion to defend our right to unite Italy.

I also approve motion 2, for the creation of a third legion will greatly aid, and speedup the much needed expansion of our territories.

Master econ, could you please edit the first motion? What I had meant earlier was that once the Pyrrhic threat is gone, the Legio I and II immediately take Croton and Tarentum. Also, could you please add in the names of any senators who had proposed or supported a motion that was to do with a third legion as seconders of motion 2? Without my second proposal passed, their proposals would all disappear, which I do not think they would like to see.

Master of Swords, this talk of patience is un-Roman and cowardly! Our Roman units outclass those of the Greek, and what should happen if Pyrrhus besieges Roma? Would you send in eighty men at a time and hope to separate his forces? No, the threat is too great. Besides, young Romans are anxious for war, eager to prove themselves worthy of the title 'Sons of Mars' on the battlefield. Glory to Rome!

My fellow senators we must not let Pyorrus grow any stronger. Thereforth i propose motion 10: A consular army is raised and sent to engage the Greeks in the field under the command of the 1st consol.
Also I second motion 6

Senator DoH, you will find that I share the same point of view as you and have already proposed this course of action, in the form of motion 1. We need no army raising, Rome's current soldiers are more than enough and ready to take on the horde of Pyrrhos the Epeirote on an open field. Quintus is the most able man, and will personally command the Legions I and II.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Honorable Senators! A minor point of procedure. The scribes are overworked. As an economy, they have decided that each motion will have only one Seconder. The Seconder is only required to get the motion put on the ballot paper. Wider demonstrations of support can be expressed in open debate here or indeed in the public voting on motions which begins tomorrow.

Senators Tiberius and DoH could you perhaps agree a common wording for motion 1 that would make motion 10 redundant? The reference to Quintus should perhaps be replaced by one to the First Consul, so whoever is elected to that post can lead our main army in the field.

And rather than speak of legions, may I recommend the terminology "Consular army" to refer to a full stack of troops and "Praetorian army" to refer to a half stack? We must not forget that our legions must over time be matched 1:1 with our alae.

Master econ, I must say that I see no difference in Senator DoH's wording and my own. I propose that these motions be merged, and the discussion of the tenth motion end here.

[SENATE SPEAKER]:Thank you, Senator Tiberius. The scribes suggest this formulation:

MOTION 1This house proposes that the First Consul be sent with a full Consular Army to defeat King Pyrrhus and then immediately to take Croton and Tarentum.

On a further procedural point, the scribes have refused to post motions that do not yet have seconders. ... Those fellows are getting a little ahead of themselves... Ah well. And yes, the chief scribe is rather hard of hearing, so to make sure he has heard you, if you do wish to second a motion X, please shout out "I second motion X".

Hmm, yes, I think that would do, master econ. I suppose Pyrrhos can be treated as a king, though he is king only of Epirus, and not leader of the Greek alliance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Master of Swords, this talk of patience is un-Roman and cowardly! Our Roman units outclass those of the Greek, and what should happen if Pyrrhus besieges Roma? Would you send in eighty men at a time and hope to separate his forces? No, the threat is too great. Besides, young Romans are anxious for war, eager to prove themselves worthy of the title 'Sons of Mars' on the battlefield. Glory to Rome!

---

Oh, Tiberius, if you are really young enough or naive enough to believe patience is cowardly, you are very inexperienced and must make yourself acquainted with the works of the great master Sun Tzu. Maybe you would like to be sent to the field, and lead a "rash, brave and truly roman" charge into king Pyrrhus' pikemen? I am sure there is nothing you can do that will please him more than to see Roma so foolishly deprived from one of her better sons...

King Pyrrhus will not besiege Roma, in the presence of an army close in pursuit at the south (the II Army) and our Consul's army in the north being just a day's march away. I would like to see him try though. It has been a long time, sice the mighty walls of Roma have been blooded by her adversaries. I will take up the sword myself, should Pyrrhus believe himself arrogant enough to attempt such an adventure!

Young Romans, as we all know, are anxious to return to their wives and shops, but it will be better for them to acquire experience against the disorganised barbarians of the north than the disciplined greek phalangites.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Here is an important announcement - the voting for the post of First Consul has now been opened!

However, I urge you Senators: DO NOT VOTE!

Ah well, what I mean is - do not vote until you have used the full influence of this House first to familiarise yourself with the candidates.

Candidates are expected to post manifestoes here on the floor of the House.

You may also wish to take the opportunity to pose questions to the candidates. Since at least one of the candidates, our Princeps Senator Quintus, is a little hard of hearing, I urge you to shout out your questions by beginning Question #: and to enumerate each questions to facilitate response. To encourage a public debate, please address your such enumerated questions to all candidates.

Bilateral exchanges between Senators and candidates on the floor of this house are encouraged, but should not be confused with general questions to all candidates.

[QUINTUS]: **Cough** Fellow Senators, you all know me - I am Quintus, Leader of this House. I know, some plebs confuse me with our Senate Speaker - it must be the quantity of pasta we both consume - but we are quite unrelated.

I am honoured to be standing for the position of First Consul. Without further ado, here is my manifesto:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manifesto of Quintus

You need a general to lead our armies against Pyrrhus. Know this - whether I am elected First Consul or not, I stand ready to fight and fight again for Rome.

It is right and proper that the First Consul should command our armies. But a First Consul should be more than a General. He must be a man with a vision of what must be done and the strength of character to see it through.

My vision for the next five years is simple: expand or die! We are a small faction, but with great potential. We will work tirelessly to extend our influence over all the provinces in Italy, bringing the petty kingdoms into our Republic and driving out our enemies, the Greeks. But there I will stop. I will seek to avoid confrontation with Gaul or Carthage. Yes, war with them is inevitable, but there is much building and preparation that needs to be done to make sure that when the battle cries begin, the advantage lies with us.

As to my character, that is for others to testify to. But I will promise this - I will stand for one term only. After five years, I will not seek re-election. After that, I will stand willing to fight for Rome at any opportunity and would welcome retaining an army command. My personal ambition is modest - through command in the field to ascend to the title of legate and ultimately praetor, so as to cultivate an experienced staff that will give us an invaluable edge in battle. But in regard to the position of First Consul, I will step aside after one term in order that younger blades may lead our great Republic.

But I will vow this: I will endow my successors with a larger, richer and mightier Rome - one that will make our neighbours quake with fear!

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Senator SwordsMaster, procrastination will only lead to Pyrrhus strengthening his grip on Southern Italia. We must strike hard and fast while his army is still not at its full potential strength, and the risk of city fighting is too high, with it being impossible to flank the dreaded Epeirote Phalangites. An open field is our only chance, and the weaker the hated Greek is, the better. Our knowledge of the area and manoeuvrablity of the maniples should be used to our advantage. To waste these advantages is foolish, as well as expensive. The more quickly the liberation of Croton and Tarentum occur, the more quickly our cities will be able to replenish our losses and increase our armies.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

Senator SwordsMaster, procrastination will only lead to Pyrrhus strengthening his grip on Southern Italia. We must strike hard and fast while his army is still not at its full potential strength, and the risk of city fighting is too high, with it being impossible to flank the dreaded Epeirote Phalangites. An open field is our only chance, and the weaker the hated Greek is, the better. Our knowledge of the area and manoeuvrablity of the maniples should be used to our advantage. To waste these advantages is foolish, as well as expensive. The more quickly the liberation of Croton and Tarentum occur, the more quickly our cities will be able to replenish our losses and increase our armies.

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We can shorten the campaign and take 4 cities instead of 2 by striking north first. We will then turn to Pyrrhus with more men, and more wealth, and battle his disordered and depleted hordes out of Italy. His men on the streets? Our skirmishers will fire at them from the safety of the city walls, and it is the decision of our Consul the "how" of surrounding and annihilating them. Maybe, with our newly aquired wealth from the north we will be able to raise another temple to Mars who will aid our men in battle, or maybe, some less-than-loyal greeks can be bribed even before our armies make contact.

The bribery of a general so famous as Pyrrhus seems unlikely, and the bulk of his army will make it difficult for any bribe to take place. Skirmishers? Their ammunition will be depleted in a short amount of time. Pyrrhus' archers, on the other hand, can pick off our men in relative safety, while defended by his phalangites and elephants. By the time we have four cities, we will have few legions, with some spent fighting the rebels, thinning out the numbers. You speak of patience, yet why be patient with a growing threat? Surely be patient in the North? The Gauls are of no concern with their lack of numbers in Italia, and they will surely spend armies taking Ariminium and Arretium, being barbarians who have inferior weapons, morale, training and tactics. Pyrrhus' phalanx, on the other hand, is far more dangerous and effective. If we allow him to take cities, he will defend them very well. If we take the cities, our armies will be weak. Outright battle is the only way forward, if we are to be the masters of Italia.

I do not agree with you, senator, but I have spoken my mind, with the best interest of Rome at heart, I will let Senate's vote decide.

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius, candidate for Consul.

Senators! Some of you may see this as a grim time. We are at war. Our enemy, Pyrrhus of Epirus, supposedly one of the best generals of our time, has a large army in southern Italy, and probably wishes to take it northward.

But this is also a time of great opportunity. The southern Italian states cannot defend themselves against Pyrrhus. If we defend them, they will be much more willing to be incorporated into the Republic, although some force may have to be applied upon them. The Greek colonies of southern Italy, by supporting Pyrrhus, become our enemies, and we are therefore perfectly justified in conquering them. By the time this is over, Pyrrhus will be dead, and we will control all of southern Italy. We will also show the world what happens when you invade Italy and threaten Rome, regardless of how great of a general you are considered to be, or how many elephants you have. It will be especially important for Carthage to see that, as, unlike the eastern countries, it remains unchecked as the sole power in the western Mediterranean.

To accomplish all of this, all we must do is defeat the army of Epirus and kill Pyrrhus, before they conquer anything. Some of our fellow Senators will have you believe that that is impossible. But to do that is to discount our troops, and to do them a great disservice. Our troups are better equipped, better trained, and more disciplined than those of our enemy. They will be well-supplied and fighting close to home. I also do not believe in the military genius of Pyrrhus. If he was that great of a general, would he have brought himself into his current predicament? Would he have underestimated our strengths so greatly? I believe he is arrogant, and far too overconfident in his own abilities.

Should I be elected Consul, my first action would be to march both Legions south with no delay. They will march past Corfinium, combine, and continue south to seek out Pyrrhus. After Pyrrhus' defeat, southern Italy would be secured, followed by the capture of Messana to gain a foothold on Sicily or the capture of Ariminum and Arretium as they do not form effective buffers against the Gauls. A third Legion would be raised immediately, while an Academy would be built when the funds allow.

Senators! Romans! We have little to fear on the battlefield. If we ever lose a war, it will happen within this very building. Our main enemies are inaction and indecisiveness. Do not lose this war before it has even begun.

My fellow senators,

As has happened before, the very existence of the city of Rome is in danger. As the clouds gather around our city, we can rely on our people to weather the storms and make the sacrifices necessary to make our nation triumph over all its threats.
Our people's strength and courage are not in question, and as long as we remain in the favour of the Gods, all our people need is a strong leader to act as a focus for their zeal. Before you stand four candidates, all men of talent, power and intellect. You are asked to make a hard decision indeed. It will require the utmost of your collective wisdom to make the correct choice.

I say I am the best choice for first consul !

The esteemed Princeps Senatus Quintus is needed in Rome instead of the battlefield. Our people need his comforting presence to give them hope in these dark times and to prepare our glorious city for extended war. This will require sacrifices and strong leadership, such as only the noble Quintus is able to provide. His brilliant son, that superb administrator, is needed in our sister city Capua for the same reasons. That leaves only my brother Tiberius Coruncanius and myself available to lead our forces in the field.
While Tiberius shows a talent for command, I am more experienced in the organizing of a large body of men, as all who know of my understanding of mathematics and skill in handling the bureaucracy, are aware of. Thus I suggest to this noble house that my brother Tiberius, with his obvious skill in training, prepare the raw recruits of the third legion to settle affairs to the north, while I lead the main army to settle once and for all with Pyrrhus in the south !

I do not volunteer myself out of pride, as I say the noble Quintus is a better and more respected man than me by far, and a shining example for all his sons to emulate. In a time of peace he would be the natural and obvious choice for the exalted position of first consul. But unfortunately, we are forced in war and for the good of the Roman people, I see no other choice to volunteer myself for this position.

I vow you this, my fellow senators : I will crush our enemies underfoot and make our city shine as a glorious beacon of light in this dark world !