Montenegro Breaks Away From Serbia

Originally Posted by :
PODGORICA, Serbia-Montenegro (CNN) -- Voters in Montenegro have decided narrowly to sever the country's union with Serbia, a move that breaks up the last two pieces of the former Yugoslavia, according to official preliminary results from the election commission.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...nce/index.html

Good, bad, or ok? I don't really know much about this, other then where these two countries are located in the world. I just thought the formation of a new nation is always interesting to discuss.

Goody, yet another mini state with less then a million inhabitants :dizzy2:

It seems to serve more a symbolic purpose then anything else, and I don't think it will gain them much in the long run if anything.

Doesn't make a difference. It was begging to hapen from the fallout of 91'. Now all we have to do is wait for Kosovo to also do the same. The Balkans are going to turn into the most nationaly concentrated area in the world. It will be fun to see those new countries in 20 years. I bet they will modernize pretty quickly now that they are liberated.

Maybe northern Srbja also wants to leave.

Bad news for Serbia surely. Methinks that no longer having a coast will hurt them alot. When and if it hits the fan Kosovo is sure to bail.

My one thought is: great, another reason for them to kill each other. :no:

I hope it works out for them.

I'm thinking something bad gonna happen out of this.

.....ah, the Balkans. Always good for a bit of sorrow.

I remember reading that the Montengrins felt that they were used pretty badly by Serbia as soldiers and officers, leading to the old saying: "The Serbs will fight until the last Montenegrin is dead."

Then there's Otto von Bismarck's take on the region: "The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier."

As ever, there is enough of an ethnic Serbian presence to create tension, and
possible difficulties. There were never any clean breaks, except when there was
relative homogeneity - in other words, see Ten-Day War.


Yugoslavia is dead, long live Yugoslavia.

When do the negotiations with the EU start, the more the better :P

Well this is annoying I can’t find it on a map

No, it will be as Serbia & Montenegro on maps. Montenegro is the part by the coast, I believe. I doubt many maps have been printed since the Montenegrin referendum...

I love the idea of mini-states on the Continent, they are so quaint, somewhat nostalgic. A colourful by-product of the international drive for nationalism after the break-up of the European Empires... All to give cartographers some extra fun, colouring the map in a few more colours than pink.

I wonder if we can convince them to re-instate a monarchy. They've all been waving flags of their old king, that has to be something. Mini-monarchies are much more fun than mini-republics...

More powder added to the keg, I guess

“The Serbs will fight until the last Montenegrin is dead” That should be quite fast, due to the Montenegrin population (around 500.000 and half live in Belgrade….).

I don’t think it will destabilise the region. Montenegro was a recognised State within the Yugoslav Federation, so not really a problem after the collapse. However, Kosovo will be the next hot potato. If Kosovo get its Independence, it will be difficult to deny this right to the Croats and Serbs from Bosnia. And perhaps, will make some trouble for Croatia with its own Serbs minority.

Until now, the solution (Madeleine Albright –sp?- preferred one) in the Balkans was simple: bomb the Serbs. The Serbs want to separate from Croatia and/or Bosnia, bomb the Serbs. The Albanian wanted to separate from Serbia: Bomb the Serbs. Erdut agreement, the Serbs have to agree to live in Croatia and to be Croats. Dayton Agreement, the Serbs have to agree to be Bosniac and to live in Bosnia. Rambouillet Agreement, the Serbs have to agree that the Albanians (hoops, sorry Ethic Albanians) will separate and the Serbs becoming minority in Kosovo will agree to live in Kosova and to be Albanians…

Wait! There are still some parts of Serbia which could be taken: What about the Independent Sandzak, the Free Vojvodina, the Republic of Shumadia and the Principaute of Dedinje (south)?

"Bomb the Serbs"
It was very good idea that time. It was great idea, especially after Serbs murdered 8000 men in Srebrenica. Or when they established semi concentration camps for Muslim prisoners or public houses where non-serb women were raped and killed after borning Serb children.
Croats or Muslims did do similar things but .....
But they were sent to Hague by government of Croatia or drove alone which I can't tell about Serbs.

Montenegro (Czarnogóra in polish) was independent state for centuries (even when Serbia was part of Ottoman Empire. Now people of Montenegro want independence - I don't see any reason that they shouldn't achieve independence. Especially that these countries are a divided since 1991 - aren't they?

So

HELLO INDEPENDENT MONTENEGRO - could someone post it's flag?

55,4% is a conveniently befitting result. :sweatdrop:


Is it too early to say “Welcome to the EU, Montenegro”? Either way, good for them.

Originally Posted by KrooK:

Montenegro (Czarnogóra in polish)

thanks for that useless information

I value and appreciate useless information. Please keep posting, Krook!

Originally Posted by stalin:
thanks for that useless information

Well, aren't you a nice guy… :dizzy2:

why would anyone care what montenegro's name is in poish. I am sure the poles know already

Another double-wide in the trailer park of Europe.

Please keep this civil :stare:

No one needs "useless" posts complaining about particular pieces of information that the poster does not consider to be interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro

For all your useless information needs.

I dont understand what is the problem.If Montenegro is a free country and they have voted to be independent what is the problem? Is the status of independent state only for big nations?For example if we look at the former Soviet republics around Baltics.They are all little Nations,but they are lot better of then they were during Soviet Union.Like it is the small countries around the World that cause the majority of problems.I dont think so.Congratulations for the People of Montenegro for their independancy~:cheers:

The problem as I see it is quite clear. Montenegro is not yet free. There are a
significant number of people within the country who do not want seperation from
Serbia, not to mention that the Serbs would most likely prefer a continuation of
the union. There were already reports of violence in the border areas around the
time of the election, so I wouldn't be rushing to say they're out of the woods
yet.

The problem, my friend, is that the Balkans have always been a highly unstable region, and a powder keg. The volatility of states and nations there only contributes to that.
For most people (which does not include weapons manufacturers who are happy to have yet another market for their goodies), this tension and instability leads to (civil) wars, in the worst case, or poverty and misery for the locals, and internal tensions, in the best case.

The simple fact that the decision was made by such a narrow margin should be a hint that it's nowhere near clear cut...

As far as i know there havent practicly ever been a clear cut,when new states are born.There always will be minorities.Lets just hope things turn better for the Balkans.Maybe one reason that it have developed as gunpowder keg has been that it has been almost constantly through out the history been under a foreign power.:bow:

Sure, all of those factors contribute to the instability.
However, it's one thing to split with a majority of 50-something percent, and a different one to split like the former Soviet republics, where 90-something percent of the population is indeed, azer, ukrainian, estonian, etc.
But you're definitely right in the fact that being under a foreign power (or more, at the same time :D) is a huge factor...

The more countries the better. :2thumbsup: Sort of...
And stalin, uppför dig! ~;)

“can't tell about Serbs”
Are you not following the news? Milosevic, dead in The Hague, was Muslim or Croat? No, he was Serb. He was even a Former President of Serbia… Itzetbegovic and Tudjman were also on the list of war criminals. Carla Del Ponte (and before her Louise Arbour) just waited their death to tell people…

“Serbs murdered 8000 men in Srebrenica”:
Not the same, it is like if you want to bomb the Francophone Belgium for a crime committed by the French.

“Croats or Muslims did do similar things but”: Indeed, they did, but, as you mentioned, you don’t care.
For your information: The Celebici camp was set up by joint Bosnian Muslim-Croat forces in 1992 in the riverside village of Celebici, near the town of Konjic in central Bosnia.
Several dozen Bosnian Serb civilians from the Konjic area were detained there in 1992. (500 according other sources)
The lower court (The Hague) ruled that "they were responsible for killing, torturing, sexually assaulting, beating and otherwise subjecting detainees in that camp to cruel and inhumane treatment".
Judges said the prisoners lived in "an atmosphere of terror" due to the frequent and random violence inflicted on them by the guards. The witnesses testified they had severely tortured and raped prisoners.
Well, you will probably answer that figures are different…

“they were sent to Hague by government of Croatia”: Can you give names? That is true for the small fishes, but their General succeeded to escape and was caught, not surrendered…
To give Milosevic to The Hague, the Serbs made a revolution…

“not to mention that the Serbs would most likely prefer a continuation of
the union” Not really, I have to say. It cost Serbia a lot of money, half of the Montenegrins are living in Serbia, they will have now have to contribute…
First, Montenegro will have to enter in EU, which means to reach the criteria… And that is another problem especially corruption. Did I mention that Djukanovic, actual hero of the independence, is wanted by Italian justice for smuggling cigarettes?

“Montenegro is not yet free” Funny enough, I went several times in Montenegro, and you know what? No occupation by Serbian forces, not suicide bombers against Serbian occupation, just nice ice cream and sea side. Montenegro was part of a Federation, it was not occupied.

And by the way, before Milosevic’s son, Marko, took the smuggling of cigarettes from Djukanovic, this one was one of the best allies of Milosevic…

Originally Posted by Brenus:
“Montenegro is not yet free” Funny enough, I went several times in Montenegro, and you know what? No occupation by Serbian forces, not suicide bombers against Serbian occupation, just nice ice cream and sea side. Montenegro was part of a Federation, it was not occupied.

It is like that in all unions with a nationalist sentiment. By the way the SNP and SSP describe it, one would think every Scot is chained together and force to pipe the oil up by hand out in the North Sea in indentured service, watched over by mean Englishmen in redcoats gloating about the Battle of Culloden and the Highland Clearances. The oil then exported south and given readily to the rich South-Eastern folks by the Tories, and all the money goes into building middle- and upper-class houses and parklands and adding to portfolio of the Crown Estates and whatever is left is donated to the Tories...

Originally Posted by Brenus:
“Montenegro is not yet free” Funny enough, I went several times in Montenegro, and you know what? No occupation by Serbian forces, not suicide bombers against Serbian occupation, just nice ice cream and sea side. Montenegro was part of a Federation, it was not occupied.

Good for you. By free, I never meant free of an occupying force. I am well aware
it was not occupied. It is not free however, from Serbian influence, or binding
ties to Serbia - as you have mentioned that a signifant number of Montenegrins
live in Serbia. Their interests, cost to Serbia or not, will likely be linked for some
time yet.

"It is not free however, from Serbian influence, or binding ties to Serbia" Yeap, they are speaking the same language, having most their tourists coming from Serbia, etc. It just will be another kind of exchange. The interesting point is what to do with the Serbian Fleet?:laugh4:

They can donate it to the Royal Navy! Britannia rules the Waves!
I jest, I jest, no. The Montenegrins will have to sell it as scrap metal to fund their new country

But then it can't be theirs to sell, heh.


[Such words are surely sacrilegious, Brenus.]

"Britannia rules the Waves": Britannia ruled the Waves.:no:

Originally Posted by Brenus:
"Britannia rules the Waves": Britannia ruled the Waves.:no:

We can again with the mighty Serbian fleet that threatened the US :idea2: :laugh4:

Brenus - you are probably Serbian Patriot and its ok.
But happyness of your country can't mean domination over every neighour.
Jugoslavia divided because of Serbian government and it is over discussion.
Now Serbs must drink beer they prepared into early 90ties.

You mentioned croatian general - you mean Gotovina, right?
But notice that he was accused of killing 150 men, and drive out 200.000
Compare with Srebrenica plz...

But could you tell me why Kardzic is not into Hague.

Why I told Czarnogóra - because polish is slav language and i think name might be similar into slovenian or serb-croatian. And of course there is another reason - in 50 years polish will be ligua franca - so start learning !!!:2thumbsup:

My instinctive reaction is one of exasparation at Balkan nationalism.

But I have some sympathy for the independent movement. A Montenegroan (note to self: homework: find out proper adjective) membership of the Yugoslavian Federation made sense. It was one of six(?) republics.

Presently there were only two federal states left, Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia being eightteen times bigger than Montenegro. It can never function as a federation of equal members.

But I fear Montenegro will become a mobster state under their main proponent of independence, Djukanovic. The man is part war criminal, part mobster and, now, part leader of his own mini-state. The guy controls everything.

I do not think we've witnessed the birth of a shining new model democracy. Au contraire. :no:

Originally Posted by Krook:
Why I told Czarnogóra - because polish is slav language and i think name might be similar into slovenian or serb-croatian. And of course there is another reason - in 50 years polish will be ligua franca - so start learning !!!

I love interesting tidbits, CrooK. In fact, I'll share two of mine:

- Montenegro means 'Black Mountain' in Italian. Italian sailors used this name when refering to the area while sailing down the Adriatic.

- Milosovic was a Montenegran, not a Serb. (What is it with agressive dictators and their being born in culturally semi-peripheral regions? Hitler, Austria; Napoleon, Corsica; Stalin, Georgia; Alexander, Macedonia)

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
- Milosovic was a Montenegran, not a Serb. (What is it with agressive dictators and their being born in culturally semi-peripheral regions? Hitler, Austria; Napoleon, Corsica; Stalin, Georgia; Alexander, Macedonia)

They have something to prove?

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
A Montenegroan (note to self: homework: find out proper adjective)

Montenegrin

Presently there were only two federal states left, Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia being eightteen times bigger than Montenegro. It can never function as a federation of equal members.

Originally Posted by :
My instinctive reaction is one of exasparation at Balkan nationalism

Originally Posted by :
But I fear Montenegro will become a mobster state under their main proponent of independence, Djukanovic. The man is part war criminal, part mobster and, now, part leader of his own mini-state. The guy controls everything.

I do not think we've witnessed the birth of a shining new model democracy. Au contraire. :no:

This is my fear with a lot of the nationalism around the world -- populations have grown rapidly in the past century or so, from when these new mini-states were independent, and self-reliance is difficult when people expect some sort of state-support from such a small country when it has few resources or financial/business centres or some such thing. The government then goes to corruption to get extra money... gerrymandering becomes favourbable and easy...

Time for Scottish and Welsh independence? :laugh4:

Anyway, I'm curious about the countries with less than 1 million population. I'll try to compile a list.
- Montenegro
- Vatican City
- Luxembourg
- San Marino
- Monaco
- Iceland
- Cyprus
- Malta
- Andorra
- Leichtenstein
I know there are more.. but what are they called?

EDIT: added some.

Andorra
Leichtenstein

Iceland
Cyprus
Malta


Then there are all those semi-autonomous regions of which I don't know the extent of independence: Gotland, Faroeer, Isle of Man, Transnistria and probably many more.

Originally Posted by Tiberius:
Time for Scottish and Welsh independence? :laugh4:

Why is that funny?

“Brenus - you are probably Serbian Patriot and its ok.”
No, I am a French who worked 10 years in the Balkans, during and after the war, in Gorazde (BiH), Sarajevo (BiH), Belgrade (SR), Vukovar (HR), Modrica (RS), Tuzla (BiH), Doboj (RS), Skopje (FYROM), etc…
I had to provide shelters, food and medicaments for ALL victims. I know a little bit because I saw what ALL the refugees went through.
If it seems that I take the defence of the Serbs it is because Croats and Muslim/Bosnians and Albanians were largely favourites by Media and the people who are making opinion…

Compare with Srebrenica plz.: I never did, I won’t. Victims are victims.
150 men: A big big underestimation at least… See report of Amnesty International.

I don’t deny the massacre of Srebrenica. YOU are denying the Serbs victims.

“But could you tell me why Kardzic is not into Hague.” Yep, he is hiding in Bosnia (UN/OSCE mandate), apparently.
Can you tell me why Tudjman (responsible for ethnic cleansing) and Izetbegovic (direct commander of the Mudjaidin Brigades) were not?

“Milosovic was a Montenegran” No, he was born in Pozarevac and it is still in Serbia. For now, at least. His family was perhaps from Montenegrin origin that I don’t know.:shame:

Jugoslavia divided because of Serbian government and it is over discussion. Yugoslavia divided because all the growing of nationalism in all the Republics and a good manipulation from Milosevic.
Milosevic was a COMMUNIST. If you listen to his first speeches, he used all the communist rhetoric. He was fast enough to jump on Nationalism but he didn’t initiate the movement.

Louis
KrooK not CrooK - learn and don't forget plz

Czarnogóra in polish means Black Mountain too
Czarny - black
góra - mountain

Brenus notice something;
when world (ok mostly USA) bombard serbia, we got peace for some time
as much they bombard Serbia, as longer peace
It's historical fact that Montenegro was independent state when Serbia was part of Ottoman Empire. Why they can't be independent now?

[QUOTE=KrooK]
And of course there is another reason - in 50 years polish will be ligua franca - so start learning [QUOTE]
That is the most radiculous thing I've ever heard Crook unless you mean the servants cleaners and street sweepers gonna need us to speak their language:sweatdrop:

I think he meant learn that his name is KrooK and not CrooK, not learn the Polish.

Originally Posted by stalin:

Originally Posted by KrooK:
And of course there is another reason - in 50 years polish will be ligua franca - so start learning

That is the most radiculous thing I've ever heard Crook unless you mean the servants cleaners and street sweepers gonna need us to speak their language:sweatdrop:

There is no need to offend Krook, he is merely imparting upon us the Polish for Montenegro. There are many, myself included, who like random pieces of information, such as the Polish for Montenegro. There is no need for that, which is rude and frankly racist.

Sorry if I was perceived as insulting to anyone I was just informing about the type of jobs the polish do in sweden and there is nothing wrong with those jobs really. It's just i don't see how they are going to take over the world within 50 years.

Google to the rescue:

Originally Posted by Brenus:
“Milosovic was a Montenegran” No, he was born in Pozarevac and it is still in Serbia. For now, at least. His family was perhaps from Montenegrin origin that I don’t know.

The difference between a Montenegrin and a Serb is apparantly moot:
'The main difference between a “Serb” and a “Montenegrin” in Montenegro is personal opinion. Milošević, from a Montenegrin family, considered himself a Serb, whereas his brother considered himself a Montenegrin. On the other hand, when Koštunica talks about Montenegrins in Serbia, he’s talking about immigrants who hold Montenegrin citizenship, not about their ethnicity. If he was talking about people of Montenegrin descent, he could be talking about the majority of Serbians'

Originally Posted by Krook:
Czarnogóra in polish means Black Mountain too
Czarny - black
góra - mountain

'Montenegro's native name, Crna Gora, translates literally to "black mountain", a reference to the dark forests that once covered the slopes of the Dinaric Alps as seen from the coast [3]. The country's name in most Western European languages, including English, reflects an adoption of the Venetian-language term monte negro, also meaning "black mountain," which likely dates back to the era of Venetian hegemony over the area in the Middle Ages. Other languages, particularly local ones, use their own direct translation of the term, including Albanian Mali i Zi, Greek: Μαυροβούνιο, Romanian: Muntenegru and Turkish: Karadağ; black mountains from further afield include Latvian: Melnkalne, Chinese: 黑山 and Icelandic: Svartfjallaland (in the latter case, literally "black mountain land").'

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
Chinese: 黑山'

The chinese deem it not important enough to have a name :laugh4:





I do realise its a translator error problem

Originally Posted by ShadesPanther:
I do realise its a translator error problem

Yes, spelled in proper Chinese characters it looks like this: ■ ▲


I think we should all provide random pieces of information in every post in this thread. Here's one more:
Montenegro is called 'le Monténégro' in French, sticking with the Venetian name rather than French 'montagne noire'. :book:

The highest mountain of Montenegro is Bobotov Kuk which is 2,522 meters high :book:

Kuk means the male erectile member in swedish

“It's historical fact that Montenegro was independent state when Serbia was part of Ottoman Empire. Why they can't be independent now?” Euh, they are. The voted for it and will get it.

“when world (ok mostly USA) bombard serbia, we got peace for some time
as much they bombard Serbia, as longer peace” Well, still leave the problem of Muslim against Muslim (Izetbegovic Vs Abdic), Croats against Muslim, Brcko and Mostar still under OSCE direct supervision, the return of the Refugees, and of course Kosovo.
Bombe the Serbs was really a good solution. Resolved nothing about the roots of the problem (OK, stop the war in Bosnia, I give you that), but the Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo started AFTER the NATO bombardment. Even Carla Del Ponte had to concede the fact.
The short view politic and the “demonisation” of the Serbs still don’t resolved the problem.
What made peace in Balkans was the democratisation of Serbia, elections and revolution when Milosevic was expelled from power by an uprising. Then the lost of power in Croatia of the HDZ. And the HUGE pressure on all Nationalist movements in Bosnia.
I am less confident for Kosovo, where the expulsion by the (Ethnic) Albanians of all who were not Albanians (and even some of were but not from the right clan) was undertaken under the nose of the “peace keepers” (like in Croatia during Storm operation) is still something which has to be addressed.

I will add some information about Montenegro: It is a peace of stones with very narrow roads bordered by deep rivers in one side and abrupt cliffs on the other side. And they drive like mad, even worst than Hungarians. Before they all LEARN to drive properly, ban for the entrance in EU.

Originally Posted by Brenus:
I am less confident for Kosovo,

Rightly so. Seems none of the Serbian politicians will even begin to cede ground
on the issue of Kosovo, while they are accepting the result of the Montenegro
referendum.

Originally Posted by Brenus:
And they drive like mad, even worst than Hungarians.

Shock, horror. I can't vouch for Montenegrins, but I must say that Hungarians
are nowhere near as bad as the Italians, particularly the ones that roam around
Istria.

“Seems none of the Serbian politicians will even begin to cede ground
on the issue of Kosovo” Well, the Serbian, as you know, the official name is Kosovo I Metohija, it is, according to legend the Heart of Medieval Serbia and Soul of it, and de facto, the most populated area in Orthodox/Christian Monuments (methojia means land of the Church). It is also where Kosovo Polje Battle happened between Murad and Prinz Lazar in 1389.
So it isn’t only about politic. Kosovo is NOT a rich county, and most of the Serbs will give it gladly if it shouldn’t be their kind of Jerusalem. Even the Serbian Atheists will be upset if Kosovo becomes independent.
So it far more complicated than Montenegro.:inquisitive:

And even in front of international laws, Kosovo is part of the internationally recognised borders. To give Kosovo independence is a danger to start all the tensions again, between Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia. It can also bring some troubles in other parts of Europe or the world. It will give a right for secession for local minorities which wish to become majority…
For all theses reasons, the negotiation will be long.:sweatdrop:

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat:
But I have some sympathy for the independent movement. A Montenegroan (note to self: homework: find out proper adjective) membership of the Yugoslavian Federation made sense. It was one of six(?) republics.

Yes, according to statute of former Yugoslavia, there were 6 republics: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Hertzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia.

Originally Posted by Brenus:
So it isn’t only about politic. Kosovo is NOT a rich county, and most of the Serbs will give it gladly if it shouldn’t be their kind of Jerusalem. Even the Serbian Atheists will be upset if Kosovo becomes independent.
So it far more complicated than Montenegro.

Yes, it is. Kosovo was Serbian before Turkish conquered it, but IIRC 1-2 centuries ago, Albanians started moving to Kosovo in large numbers, so nowdays there are >85% of Albanians in Kosovo and only 10% of Serbs. It's a big problem for Serbs, to give up Kosovo - center of their medieval state. Besides, it's religiouslly quite important for Serbs.

I think the case of Montenegro is much simpler. Montegreese (or however are called people who live in Montenegro) existed as nation during history and had their state (middle ages and later in 19th century). That's why I believe they have full right to be independent.