MP Campaign: No cheating oath

The MP Campaign is only 3 days away (isn't it exciting?) and so there is one issue we need to sort out, cheating. I am sure most of the players here are trustworthy but it is unreasonable to expect that no-one will cheat. That it why I created this thread; to make everyone know exactly what constitutes cheating, and make everyone aware of how much damage is causes to the game.

First of all, what constitutes cheating in a Multiplayer Campaign?

1. Saving the game so that you may reload it if something goes wrong (eg saving before a decisive battle so that you can load up if you lose or suffer high casualties)
2. Loading up the quicksave again if you miss something out from your turn, or do something wrong etc. The only time it is justifiable to load up the quicksave is if you accidentally forget to activate the script and thus carry on to the next turn, in which case you must include this in your turn report.
3. Any use of Romeshell, except if it is authorised by the Game Master (for example, in my BI PBeM I went round using RomeShell to give each faction fair amounts of money)
4. Any break of the house rules established in your PBeM (see this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65512)
5. Making diplomatic negotiations with other players in your turn without seeking their permission first, with the exception of bribery, which must be announced in your turn report.
6. Attacking another player, fighting a battle, having your spies/assassins found out and killed by that player etc. without telling them afterwards (or including it in your turn report)
7. Fighting a battle manually, especially against another human player.

Secondly, why is it damaging to cheat in a multiplayer campaign?

1. If you become powerful, wealthy or win a war/battle by cheating, how can you get a good feeling? Honestly doing any of these things feels much more rewarding.
2. If you cheat at the disadvantage of another player, it is very unfair on them and could ruin their experience in the campaign.
3. Some of the biggest scale cheats could corrupt the save file forever, and completely ruin them to the state where they have to be abandoned.
4. If you get found out, you will be blacklisted which means that you will not be able to join up with any other MP PBeMs (this has not been agreed on by anyone else yet but I will strive to make the restriction of blacklisted members a rule on all other multiplayer campaigns). Also, you will be thrown out of the multiplayer campaign you are currently playing.
5. A common cause of cheating is when players feel that they have been very unlucky in certain areas of the game. If you cheat, it will seem like bad luck to your victim and so they could well start cheating too, and YOU will become the victim.

The Blacklist:
I propose a blacklist (as described above) which would mean that anyone caught cheating would be instantly barred from any other MP PBeMs ever carried out ever again. Players barred:
(none as of yet)

The oath:
All factions in the MP Campaign must take this oath. In fact I suggest that the campaign does not begin until all players have repeated it.

"I, (your username here), the leader of (your faction name here), solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically, with the exception of bribery, without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

Other PBeMs should also use this thread.

"I, Silver Rusher, the leader of the Seleucid Empire, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

"I, UltraWar, the leader of Carthage, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

UltraWar, I missed one thing out. Could you please add the following line to the bottom of your oath:

Fight any battle manually

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silver Rusher

UltraWar, I missed one thing out. Could you please add the following line to the bottom of your oath:

Fight any battle manually

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No problem!

"I, RickFGS, the leader of the Julli and head of the Roman Republic and member of The Order of The Eagle Alliance, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

I've made a slight edit to your post:

Quote:

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5. Making diplomatic negotiations with other players in your turn without seeking their permission first, with the exception of bribery, which must be announced in your turn report.

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"I, Myrddraal, the leader of the Britons and member of the Compact of Europa, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission, with the exception of bribery which, should it happen, I will announce in my turn report.
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

I, Glaucus, the leader of The Iberian Tribes, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

I've made a slight edit to your post:


"I, Myrddraal, the leader of the Britons and member of the Compact of Europa, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission, with the exception of bribery which, should it happen, I will announce in my turn report.
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

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Bribing isn't really diplomacy, but your point is valid nonetheless.

"I, Monarch, the leader of The Greek City States, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

"I, kburkert, the leader of Germania, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically, with the exception of bribery, without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

"I, shadowarmy75, the leader of The Ptolemaic Empire, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically, with the exception of bribery, without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

I have 1 question. I thought we could fight manual battles against computer controlled factions like Numidia.

Number 2 is ridiculous. That's all I have to say. For one it's impossible to check, other is that you draw a fine line between reloading for purposes of redoing a script screw-up and then changing the moves you make.

And Number 6, well what if you forget? Are you going to black list them?

"I, General_Sun, the leader of Macedonia, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically, with the exception of bribery, without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

And to Shadow, may I suggest no?

What da? Against AI we can play manuallly of course..else there will be no fun in the game...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by General_Sun

Number 2 is ridiculous. That's all I have to say. For one it's impossible to check, other is that you draw a fine line between reloading for purposes of redoing a script screw-up and then changing the moves you make.

And Number 6, well what if you forget? Are you going to black list them?

"I, General_Sun, the leader of Macedonia, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically, with the exception of bribery, without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"

And to Shadow, may I suggest no?

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I forgot to mention, number 6 would not merit a blacklist.

Also, it is unfair on the players surrounded by other human factions if people get to manually carry out their battles against the AI, simply because you will win far more battles against them than you would against humans. For example, if the Carthaginians were to conquer all of Northern Africa using this method, they could suffer almost no military losses. Then, when somebody challenged them, they would be in a far better state to respond. Also, can predict more people would reload if you were allowed to carry out battles against the AI yourself.

BTW, General Sun, if you don't include the second line your oath will not be accepted.

Not be accepted? I'm quaking in my boots! Mommy Mommy what do I do?

*rolls eyes, are you even going to try to refute my point, or just say, I'm right and that's it. Open up a dialogue here oh mighty rule setter.

You can't just not put down part of the oath. It doesn't work like that. If you don't agree not to reload your game, what's going to stop you from reloading it?

Look, maybe it is hard to prove some of the rules, but does that mean that people should actually be allowed to reload their saved games? No! Yeah, sure, we will find it hard to prove, but the oath is based on trust (except for areas where it is possible to tell that people have been cheating).

If somebody forgets to activate the script, what else can they do? Just continue, and completely **** up the game for everyone else?

You tell me.

How is reloading the game cheating? It's testing different strategies and seeing which one you like best. It's not like reloading a tactical battle where you try it over and over again until you get the score you want. This is a game of the mind, it's battle of intellects, not twitch. So you didn't build the the unit you wanted because you forgot, or misclicked and sent an army to the wrong place. (It bloody happens to me all the time), or forgot to load the damn army on the ship before sending the ship off (again happens to me all the time, my mouse is kind of freaky,).

Reloading ISN'T cheating as long as its not for tactical battles, and in anycase we can't play tactical battles anyway, so that's not an issue.

I agree with most of these points but if people are allowed to reload it creates an obvious loophole - they would be able to fight battles over and over again. People would be able to do this: "Hmm, I lost this battle. I thought before that I would win and that I needed to keep unit Y in settlement X to stop revolts. Let me just reload and move unit Y into the army. Ah! I won! But what's this? Settlement X has rebelled? Ok then, I will reload and do the same thing again, maybe they wont rebel. Oh, they rebelled anyway. I will reload and call the whole battle off then."

Of course, this is going over the top but it is a common truth. I know, because I am constantly finding myself in that kind of position whenever I play a campaign and I can't be bothered to fight battles.

Whatever, ill just trample your faction, reload or no reload.

Once you do something, it's done. There weren't time-machines back in the day, you know. You mess something up, that is going to stay that way. No undoing.

Did you even read my post Silver? I said barring tactical battles. Everything else we SHOULD reload when we mess something up, or think of a superior strategy later. I do want to play against people's best, not people's half drunken states.

And you know what? YOUR oath isn't accepted Silver, I therefore invalidate it and add you to my private blacklist in the sky.

Who the heck do you think you are just to make up rules out of the blue and call upon people to follow them without discussion? Only Myrddraal and UltraWar has that privilege IMHO and even they consult the players first.

Or maybe that's just me being tainted by democracy (Curia) where everywhere else is dictatorship. Huh.

Why are you getting so angry?

These rules are all so obvious anyway, and other than the autoresolve battles you are the only person who has so far disagreed with any of these rules.

EDIT: As if that WERENT enough, how about this for an example. Your huge, powerful army is marching along. You think it cannot be defeated. Suddenly, it is ambushed! Your powerful army gets destroyed. Well, what is to stop you from just saying "oh, wait, I didn't mean to go there, I'll just reload..."

I play the game with the mindset that ambushes are useless. Maybe other people would disagree. Besides, ambushes are really rare, how about this, I promise not to reload if there's an ambush involved. But I do want people in general to reload as often as possible.

And why am I angry? Because you didn't accept my oath. I was kind of annoyed by that, you just dismissed my point of view out of hand, entirely ignoring me. That to me was, WTF?

About time machines, here's what I said to myrddraal:
[15:02] Dave - Myrddraal: like Tiberius said, there were no time machines in real life
[15:03] General_Sun: but there is planning and discussing with your generals
[15:04] General_Sun: and trying out different things in a map
[15:04] General_Sun: and drawing them etc
[15:04] General_Sun: since nobody's going to be doing that, they should do it in the game
[15:04] General_Sun: a time machine would be, if you screw up after you pass it on, and someone else exploits it, then you reload
[15:04] General_Sun: that's a time machine
[15:04] General_Sun: otherwise it's not

[14:59] Dave - Myrddraal: but if everyone is just re-loading whenever they make a mistake, then everyone will make all the right moves every time - it'll just boil down to who's got the best faction. You should be able to exploit other people's mistakes when they make them. Besides, I'm fairly sure that there is an element of chance in autoresolve.

[15:00] General_Sun: no
[15:00] General_Sun: mistakes are mistakes because you realize after the other guy exploits it
[15:00] General_Sun: moves aren't going to be "perfect" as you say
[15:00] General_Sun: but if people took some time to think abotu things, and try out different strategiest, they're going to be the most challenging they can be

There will NOT be any time machines allowed in this campaign as it is cheating... it'll make you think more...

Look, can we move on from this? I respect your opinion (and agree with a lot of it), but there are many things that could be done if you were allowed to reload. I agree entirely that screwing up should merit a reload, but it is very difficult to draw a line between reloading because you screw up and reloading because something doesn't happen in your favour. Like send spies into a city so that you can open it up immediately.

Continuation of our msn conversation:

Dave - Myrddraal says:
what about discovering things
General_Sun says:
like you mean moving a spy here
and then moving it there?
not a big deal imho
Dave - Myrddraal says:
what about if, as the Romans, you send an army across the alps to invade, only to find three stacks heading your way. Attacking right now isn't a good tactic so you reload and prepare defences. When the enemy get there, don't you think that would be a little unfair?
General_Sun says:
hmmm
not really
i think in "real life"
we would know about things like this
from hearsay and whatnot
Dave - Myrddraal says:
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
that was a very dubious hmmm
General_Sun says:
you're right, but i don't think it's that big of a deal
but if you want the oath, then oath it is
Dave - Myrddraal says:
The point is, you can find out that you've made a mistake before someone exploits it. Should you be able to correct mistakes like that really?
General_Sun says:
doesn't matter that much to me, just thought that the game would be more fun if everyone tried out different stuff etc
but if i'm alone on this decision, i'll concede
Dave - Myrddraal says:
I'm inclined towards not allowing reloads personally
I'm not set on it, but I think it's better
General_Sun says:
i guess it's not that big of a deal

I think we should agree that reloading isn't allowed, at least for this MP campaign.

I guess it's not that big of a deal... Like I told Myrddraal I concede since appearantly I'm alone in my thinking.

Good, so you promise not to reload? As the first person you'll attack this effects me greatly. IMO as we are doing this turn by turn it'll cause everyone to really think more about each individual turn than in a campaign, so you're less likely to "screw up".

PS. What is with that weird "mommy mommy" thing you do? :S

Questions, so it is?
1-Reload - Yes / No
2-Unit Scale? Huge / Large
3-Manual Battles Vs AI? Yes / No

Please vote

Let's make a proper poll shall we?

1-Reload - No
2-Unit Scale? Huge
3-Manual Battles Vs AI? Yes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monarch

Good, so you promise not to reload? As the first person you'll attack this effects me greatly. IMO as we are doing this turn by turn it'll cause everyone to really think more about each individual turn than in a campaign, so you're less likely to "screw up".

PS. What is with that weird "mommy mommy" thing you do? :S

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Yes, I've already edited my original oath to include the reloading. ANd the mommy mommy is my form of mockery. :laugh4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monarch

Good, so you promise not to reload? As the first person you'll attack this effects me greatly. IMO as we are doing this turn by turn it'll cause everyone to really think more about each individual turn than in a campaign, so you're less likely to "screw up".

PS. What is with that weird "mommy mommy" thing you do? :S

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Yes, I've already edited my original oath to include the reloading. ANd the mommy mommy is my form of mockery. :laugh4:

General_Sun... you've accidently multiple clicked the "Submit Reply" button haven't you? :inquisitive:

An example of how my mouse is freaky UltraWar. I hate for this to happen in game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by General_Sun

An example of how my mouse is freaky UltraWar. I hate for this to happen in game.

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It would be a big misfortune if the mouse kept pressing End Turn on your turn :laugh4:

I, Shadows, shall not cheat in this PBEM campaign. Cheating IMO is defined as either using one of the pre-defined cheats, openly known for RTW or modifying in any way any files containg information related to the game. Should any other player be caught or suspected with serious accusations of cheating I shall render this oath null and void and will procede to cheat the hell out ofthe game in an attempt to seize power.

x______https://img114.imageshack.us/img114/...gnature7vr.jpg______________

I, Luigiman, shall not cheat in this PBEM campaign. Cheating IMO is defined as either using one of the pre-defined cheats, openly known for RTW or modifying in any way any files containg information related to the game. Should any other player be caught or suspected with serious accusations of cheating I shall render this oath null and void and will procede to cheat the hell out ofthe game in an attempt to seize power.

thanks Luigiman for copying my oath:furious3: :laugh4: . I just hope that you noticed the loopholes I wrote in. That way you can use them to your advantage too.:2thumbsup:

The loopholes are gaping :no:

Racists! Why is it that the Gauls gets to get away with partial oaths but mine wasn't accepted? Does anyone have anything against the venerable people of Macedonia?

Only that your faction will not last to see a second year´s eve....

Rick, please keep your IC responses to the IC threads.

ups...he he he

Why?

@ People who used alternative 'oaths', I'd appreciate it if you reposted using the correct wording. It's perhaps nothing more than a formality, but I'd appreciate it anyway.

"I, Ignoramus, the leader of the Confederation of Thracian Tribes, solemnly swear that I will not cheat by doing any of the following:
Reloading the game, unless I have forgotten to activate the script in which case I must include that in my report
Using RomeShell for any purpose
Breaking the house rules
Interact with other players diplomatically without their permission
Fail to report any battles, captures of spies/assassins, sieges, naval battles or other non-secret incidents which involve another human player
Fight any battle manually"