Most under-rated/over-rated unit?

A slight twist on Ave Maximus' thread about the most powerful unit, and inspired largely by a couple of interesting answers to that one...notably Archayon's nomination of Byzantine Horse Archers and Holybandit's nomination of Steppe Cavalry (gotta confess I like these speedy little fellas as well)....I thought I'd throw it open to seek opinions on the most under-rated (and conversely over-rated) units.

I'll start by seconding Holybandit in regards to Steppe Cavalry as massively under-rated - they can be invaluable in speeding around an enemy's flank and striking a killer blow from the rear...

yay, recoginition at last.

Overrated: Kataphractoi

Don't get me wrong; they *are* good units. They're not all they're cracked up to be, however. They'll overpower just about everything they come across early on, yes; but that starts to abate as other factions gain the ability to train heavier spear units. When fighting the Turks and Egyptians--two of their biggest rivals--the katanks' heavy armor greatly diminishes their usefulness in the desert homes of these two factions. In addition, their slow speed makes them vulnerable to fast light cavalry and mounted archers--two unit types that most of their neighbors possess in abundance. Finally, at 105 florins per year, these guys aren't cheap!


Underrated: Muwahid Infantry

I apologize, but I'm going to monologue for a bit about these fellows. A lot of people that play any of the Muslim factions have said they don't have much use for them, and I admittedly can see why. Many view Muwahids as being redundant, as most of their functions can be performed as well or better by another unit. In addition, some players are turned off by their non-standard size (only 60 men for a spear unit). I understand these concerns, as I used to share them. However.... ~;)

What Muwahids are good at is allowing your army considerable tactical flexibility. They're fast, have good morale, excellent charge & attack, decent defense, and are deadly versus cavalry. (And even better, they don't cost a bundle!) When you need to quickly adapt formations and/or tactics during a battle, or you want to create an army that is equally good on both defense and offense, then you should definitely be including at least a few units of these bad boys.

Their excellent foot speed means they're actually pretty good at protecting your flanks--this is extremely useful when you have no cavalry (and/or they're otherwise occupied)--and can even make flanking attacks themselves. They can quickly plug any gaps that form in your lines. They're great general-killers if the enemy commander's personal unit is any type of cavalry; they can eat horses for lunch! Although they're only spearmen, they also give a good account of themselves against infantry as well. And of course, they have little problem taking out their fellow spearmen.

Taken in all, I've found Muwahid Infantry to be a very useful, multi-purpose unit. No Muslim army should be without them!


Edit: I daresay, they're even better than camels. ~D [Running away before Mithrandir can ride me down!]

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Originally Posted by bamff

... Archayon's nomination of Byzantine Horse Archers ...

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i reminded my little Byz campaign...
was doing pretty well, but in the south-east i was heavily beaten by the eggies and the turks (somehow they kept surviving, using the eggies for protection).
then, 1 of my provinces was teched up enough to create the Byz HA ...

i built stacks and stacks of them, whiping out the whole south of the map a province a year... in no time, the byz set foot on spanish soil (and the latter didn't like that...)
just shoot everything ... then charge everything ...
(if fire was a bit concentrated on camels, and valour was going up, camels routed before any melee could start ... true, i used some treb archers for sharpshooting some camels)


i didn't see it mention a lot before, but Byz HA almost seem like Feudal knights with bow and arrow to me



:idea2: Arch

I'd agree with everything stated so far, especially with respect to Kataphraktoi, Muwahid Foot Soldiers and Steppe Cavalry.

Under-rated: I have a real soft spot for Ottoman infantry. Pretty good shooters and can rough it up in melee as well - AP bonus too. They're usually the mainstay of my Turkish infantry arm, with a few Saras and Mwahahahas to deal with the four-legged threats. Tactical flexibility is one of the plus points of the Muslim factions.

Naptha throwers - take some effort, but often well worth it. Great fun watching 12 napthamen chasing off 50 screaming halbardiers :laugh4:

Over-rated: not sure, peasants probably.... I never train them in MTW, have no use for them whatsoever.

Under-Rated: Um probably Slav Javelinmen, great for wipping out the nasty HRE.

Over-Rated: Definately Kataphractoi. For the reasons that Martok already stated.

Under-rated: Celtic Warriors in Early, High or Late. I've just finished a series of English campaigns, so I have a bit of a soft spot for them. They are available to anyone in Wales and Ireland. They are like cheap Byz Inf. They have cheaper support costs then Peasants. I like building and buffing them in Wales, during Early, while I'm waiting around for the Longbowmen to become available in High. I use them to garrison my Provences, and build cheap armies. Give them some armor and morale upgrades and they get even nicer.

Overated: Kataphractoi, for all the reasons stated above.

Under-rated: I'd have to agree that steppe cavalry are possibly the most under-rated unit, together with Saharan Cavalry, for the same reason, cheap and quick and good for taking out missile units and capturing routers for ransom.

As for most over-rated, well Boyars are the worst! Hideously expensive upkeep, and by the time you can make them charge and use their admittedly impressive melee stats, the battle is over. Pushing them a close second are halberdiers. Other than bridge battles they are too slow, and if hit from behind they run like rabbits..well very slow rabbits.

The reason some people think that Kataphraktoi are so good is that in the early period they are the best heavy cav at the start of the campaign, and they happen to be entirely made up of royals initially led by 8 and 9 star princes and the emperor.

I'd have to agree 100% as regards to Boyars as well.

Underrated camels.
Overrated any cav unit cause camels can kick their behinds.


~D.

Camels are better vs cav than those pesky stick carrying pests Martok...

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Originally Posted by Mithrandir

Camels are better vs cav than those pesky stick carrying pests Martok...

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You know Mithrandir, you have to have actually used other units before you can make that kind of claim. One can hardly make a comparison when your armies are made up of nothing but camels.... ~;p

I was waiting for Mithrandir to come riding in on his camel!

I would say that one of the most overlooked units (in MTW) is the mounted crossbowman. Ya sure they've received some notoriety but in my army not only are they mounted skirmishers, but rout chasers, and with a little valor serve as excellent medium cavalry. What I like to do is bring enough to overwhelm whatever archers the enemy brings to the field so as they try in vain to engage my horses, there is another unit taking down their general or heavy infantry. Toe to toe they can't stand up against horse archers but they aren't meant to. Charge up to them in a thin line, on loose formation, get real close, change to tight formation and fire. They can kill more with one volley than the HAs and walk all over them in melee. Of course, you don't want to engage HAs directly in less you have to. They're also perfect king killers and should be used to harass the enemy army (especially the general) the entire time they're on the map. If they get close enough to my fortified position the crossfire from my two foot missile units catches them in a nice cross fire.

The aforementioned overwhelming tactic is best used on the offense. Take up a good defensive position with your army and harass/kill as many of the enemy as you can and try to force them to attack. Invincibility lies in the defense, victory lies in the attack; do both. It's pathetically easy. On the defense they're also good at killing the enemy's missile troops as they almost always leave them exposed at some point at which you can charge and eliminate them.

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Originally Posted by bamff

A slight twist on Ave Maximus' thread about the most powerful unit, and inspired largely by a couple of interesting answers to that one...notably Archayon's nomination of Byzantine Horse Archers and Holybandit's nomination of Steppe Cavalry (gotta confess I like these speedy little fellas as well)....I thought I'd throw it open to seek opinions on the most under-rated (and conversely over-rated) units.

I'll start by seconding Holybandit in regards to Steppe Cavalry as massively under-rated - they can be invaluable in speeding around an enemy's flank and striking a killer blow from the rear...

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Agreed. The Steppe Cavalry in MTW was the most under-rated unit!

I never used elite units in MTW but from 'elites' I've ever tried, the most overrated are the Longbowmen (vanilla archers are far superior).

Good point Vladimir. Mounted crossbows are also great for whittling down & tiring out enemy knights...horse archers that pack a real punch, if you like...

Another possible "over-rated" (although I suppose this depends on whether anyone does actually use them) - Lithuanian Cavalry.

All the trouble you have to go to if you want to form these units, and their cost, and you wind up with an over-priced mounted sergeant!

What's the go with that?

Halbediers are the BEST. They are included in any army of mine at any time possible. They slice through calvary like butter, and can take the fight back to infantry. Sure..theyre slow, but put those babys against the enemys HC and they can turn the battle extremely fast. Speaking of that, in all my russian campaigns I use only halbadiers (as heavy infantry), why? Because they can kill 10x theyre number in mongol calvary.

Camels get eating up quickly, srry mithrador, theyre not worth the time. They can rout calvary, but not instantly, so theyre extremely low defense makes them lose numbers quickly.

Another good unit that deserves reconginition....MAMLUK CALVARY!! Fast, armoured, dont tire quickly, and pack a hell of a punch. Easy to build and mass. Abyssian guards are good also.

Off topic- anyone notice how fun it is to have a only calvary army?

When you say "only cavalry army", you do have some mounted projectile units, right? Otherwise spears, pikes, halberdiers and the like would cause you some grief...

Jumping back to the halberdier question and the issue of speed, I suppose that is also a major drawback with both Varangians and Goth Sergeants - although these two have definite morale advantages. Varangians also have the drawback of the time taken to form a unit....having said that, it's hard to label either as "over-rated" because they sure do perform when battle is joined. I suppose it just highlights that every unit has its weak points (yes, Mithrandir, EVEN camels!).

hey, doesn't anybody like horse archers (any variant)? i like them better than mounted crossbows because they have longer range and faster rate of fire. whenever i can, i try to incorporate 2 or 3 units of these guys to start the battle by whittling down the enemy with concentrated arrow fire. they can outrun any pursuers. and when they've run out of arrows i hold them in reserve and use them to chase routers (alt-tab, right?) or send them in to strike an engaged enemy unit from behind. they're relatively cheap so in a pinch, i use them to screen and delay an enemy attack so i can redeploy my infantry to take the enemy's charge. now that's versatility! :2thumbsup:

I dont like HA in MTW. Simply because the most they can do in one arrow barrage is 3-4 casualties (not like in RTW). Though ill use them if I have them.

And bamff, Although usually I do like to have some, you dont neccasarily need them. Flanking will do the job nicely, same effect if not more.

What about Turcopoles? Anyone had any success using these guys?

Add my name those who agree with Vladimir about mounted crossbows. I very nearly listed them instead of Muwahids as the most underrated unit. I'm still not very fond of them (I generally don't care for mounted missile units), but there's no denying their usefulness!

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Originally Posted by holybandit

Another good unit that deserves reconginition....MAMLUK CALVARY!! Fast, armoured, dont tire quickly, and pack a hell of a punch. Easy to build and mass.

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And even better, they get that nice +1 bonus when trained in Egypt. ~D

that's strange, i have a lot of fun using mounted missile troops. i guess i'm able to do more damage because i usually concentrate my fire on one unit at a time. so even if they only deal 3-4 kills per volley, multiply that by 2 or 3 (the number of mounted archers i've often fielded) and they do a pretty good deal of damage. just make sure to move them before the enemy can get at them. (don't rely on the skirmish mode to do this, work that mouse!)

i've had good experience with turcopoles. they're usually better than the basic horse archers. i've managed to win at least one battle before it really began because my turcopoles managed to kill the impetuous enemy general at the start of the game. he kept trying to charge me and i just ran away. once he turned around, i'd pepper his unit with arrows. after the third (or was it fourth?) turn-around, my boys got lucky. result: his army started getting the jitters so that when i charged them, most of them just began to rout.

lucky? yes. cool? absolutely!

I agree steppe cavelry are great all round units.

Viking huscarles are a good units too able to go against some far more modern troops, but expensive.

Proberly the most over praised is perhaps chivalric sergants, they don't seem to stand up to much they easily defeated by lesser troops.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

Halbediers are the BEST. They are included in any army of mine at any time possible.
....
Camels get eating up quickly, srry mithrador, theyre not worth the time. They can rout calvary, but not instantly, so theyre extremely low defense makes them lose numbers quickly.

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Oh how I loved to see people bring halberdiers to the field...

they were too slow to catch any cavelry, tired too fast to be of any use, and most important : they have absolutely no morale whatsoever, to upgrade them to V2 (at which you've still don't have a dependant unit) is just a waste of money..

ofcourse I also always brought (besides camels) a nice batch of militia sergeants (v3) which would totally cut through halberdiers & almost most other infantry ~D.

oh the good ol' days when I played online for at least 6 hours a day...

Yeah militia serges are more cost effective then halberdiers, but require protection against cav.

I don't think Kats are overrated. Looking at their bare stats, they're not special and inferior to chivalric knights. But any player with a brain will train them in constantinople, after that compared to chivalric knights they'll have one less attack point and one more in defense. In custom battles they cost 375 IIRC, not that much so you'll just have to upgrade them.
About their costs, I think you'll find that many of the Byz units have a higher upkeep then you'd expect. The developers probably did that for gameplay reasons.

Most underrated unit: berber camels (the one with the bows)
They're a little underwhelming in melee, but they can stay away from infantry and can deal with light cavalry. Heavy cavalry would still beat them, but I don't think the unit is as bad as it's made out to be.

Another underrated unit: druzhina cavalry when mounted
People seem to just use them to get dismounted feudal knights. However when mounted they're a 60 men (standard size) cavalry unit with armour piercing axes. I think they're usefulness as a cav unit is overlooked, and they're to expensive to be just used as beefed up swordsmen anyway.

Most overrated: huscarles
they're good units certainly, but not quite as good as varangian guards in their catagory. Lack of armoured units in the early era sort of prevents them from being used to their full potential, and in the high era unwards they have competition from polearms and will be a prime target for crossbow units.

About the berber camels :

I've spend months on end playing almohads online and thus creating the most costeffective army (at least I think ~;) ) and they didn't do it for me for a few reasons : you need some shooters to win, or at least don't lose badly in the shoot out (unless you rush,in which case you shouldn't have berbers anyway), berber camels can't fulfill a role in a shootout, they simply lack the armour to stand a chance.

For the anti cav, normal camels will do much better. The ranged ability does not give them enough advantage vs infantry since their speed isn't very impressive.

They are fun to have if you face off vs a lesser skilled enemy to harass the enemy and try to get their cav to play, but they are simlpy not costeffective enough, meaning they don't excel in a role as either anti cav or as a mounted ranged unit. Hence they are not underrated imho.

Drazuna cav are fun, but they lack the morale to be effective for that cost IIRC.

Druzhina cavalry under-rated? i'm not sure, despite their AP ability they are fairly useless against other cavalry. The best thing that can be said for them is that they have a fair amount of staying power being a 60 man unit and can be used to hold off heavier cavalry. In melee stats they are weaker than medium cavalry/horsemen, which are really basic cav.
Must agree with you with huscarls though, they are one of those units that when you get them you think, now i'm really gonna kick some butt, but always end up a bit disapointed with.

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Originally Posted by bamff

What about Turcopoles? Anyone had any success using these guys?

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I've had alot of sucess with Turcopoles. With the Catholic Factions they are the only Horse Archer types outside of Mounted Xbows or Jinettes. They get a valor bonus if built in the Provence that borders the Med and Edessa.

Use them like you would use most of their kind. I believe they are better than HAs as a general rule, a little tougher and longer lasting, but I think they are a little slower. They are definately not a good solution to stop Mongol HAs, at least not that I've found out.

In the under-rated category I'm gunna give a shout out for Swabian Swordsmen. Those guys made mincemeat of my high-valour, veteran AUMs.

Over-rated, Ghazis. I know some folks rave about them, but they just die so quickly! After a couple of battles, you're left with 3 or 4 units of Ghazis with 4 or 5 valour. Only problem is there's only about 4 men in each unit!

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Originally Posted by Mithrandir

They are fun to have if you face off vs a lesser skilled enemy to harass the enemy and try to get their cav to play, but they are simlpy not costeffective enough, meaning they don't excel in a role as either anti cav or as a mounted ranged unit. Hence they are not underrated imho.

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But...but... ~:mecry:
I like them

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Over-rated, Ghazis. I know some folks rave about them, but they just die so quickly! After a couple of battles, you're left with 3 or 4 units of Ghazis with 4 or 5 valour. Only problem is there's only about 4 men in each unit!

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In campaigns I always recruit my other units from provinces with armourers, but for the ghazis that's more of a luxury. They don't need much in the way of upgrading anyway- they have a good charge, armour piercing axes and very good morale. Since they lack natural defense they can only survive in good numbers if you give them good valour and max armour wich isn't really worth it, so you should only be using ghazis if you are a cold hearted bastard who can stomach it (yeesss, even enjoy it) to see them dieing in flocks.
Plus ghazis can outrun most foot missiles and slaughter them in melee :yes:

(I mainly speak from online experience, so forgive me if I don't take regional benifits into account).

I think ghazis are a nice unit, you can buy them at valour 0 and they are still a unit to be reckoned with because of their high morale (which is the most important thing if you ask me) great charge and armour piercing. Buying them at valour 0 means that you just lose 175 florins ,with the money saved you can upgrade other units...

They'll never be the main infantry of an army though, they die too fast and are particularly vulnerable to archers...

I don't think there is a region that give ghazis a valour bonus.

As you say morale is the most important attribute and IIRC ghazis already have 8 morale without upgrades, adding valour is pointless because their attack and morale are already very good but the defense is so terrible that a valour point is really just a drop of water on a hot plate.
Additional armour might be useful on non-desert maps to help them a bit against missiles, and as I mentioned they can outrun most foot missiles (IIRC all except Bulgarian Brigands and desert archers)

I guess its just my halbadiers, I use them efficently.

I usually dont use HA, I like to have the staying power of 4-5 units of teched up archers that can blow any HA army out of the water.