using rebel lands as buffer zones

In my current campaign as the English in 1124 (Expert, vanilla MTW), I have raided some German and Italian provinces, with rebels sometimes moving in. Sometimes I prefer to leave these as rebel lands which can provide buffer zones to enemies and slow neighbors from coming as they need to attack the rebels to get access to me. I was wondering when players decide to grab the rebel lands, and when do you let them be?

In my case some of the rebel lands I couldn't hold and didn't want to as they are non-productive lands (no resources, not great farm lands). I am considering grabbing one for a trade item and some income, though I am also considering letting it lie, though it would be another coastal area, (provance I believe), so that may have some advantage as a place to build ships.

When do you create rebel lands as buffer zones or for other reasons, perhaps as training grounds?

I'll take a stab at this as best I can.

I do not really go out of my way to make rebel lands, but I'll tell you the reasons why I capture any provence, rebel or not. I'm pretty sure that my reasoning will be universal so it will fit for deciding on capturing a rebel provence.

1. The provence has strategic merit. It sits at a natural chokepoint, or is easily defended. It might shorten up my "exposed" provences, meaning the ones that border another faction. If that provence is controlled by rebels then I probably won't take the provence. I have never encountered rebels attacking another provence, meaning the rebels in the provence of Wales won't attack Wessex. In this case the rebels gives the provence more strategic merit, another faction will have to defeat the rebel army to occupy the provence therefore the provence is harder to gain. This seems to be the reason why you make buffer provences.

2. The provence has economic merit. It has trading goods, or good farm lands, aka its a money maker. I will also take it if when the appropriate buildings are built it will significantly reduce the maintenance costs of my fleets. In this case, I will take the provence when it is convienant for me. If the provence is controlled by rebels I will try to purchase them, thus giving me an automatic garrison. If that's not feasible then conquering is acceptable.

3. The provence has tactical merit. It has a valor bonus for units I use like Chiv Knights in Toulouse, units that are available no where else like Galloglasses in Ireland, or the provence has IRON. Depending on various factors, like how much I use the unit or how good the unit, will dictate how quickly I will gain the provence rebel or not. A provence with Iron will be assimilated as quickly as possible.

There are some minor considerations as well. In a GA game I try to keep a moderate size kingdom. I will not go on a conquering spree so I won't take amy provence unless it will clearly be an asset.

In a world domination game one thing might save the rebels. If I remember correctly rebels will trade with you if they have the appropriate buildings. In that case, if there is a provence with the appropriate buildings controlled by the rebels I would go out of my way to keep them rebel so I have someone to trade with in the late stages of the game, when money gained from trading is shrinking. I say would, because I just thought of it, so I haven't tried to see if it would work. ~;)

I hope I answered your question, and I will apologize if the post was a little to lengthy.

So long as it fulfills the strategic plan, a rebel province is obviously just itching for some good governance from my munificent and glorious empire :skull: "Thou shalt not suffer a rebel to live" and all that.....

In my analysis rebel armies fall into two categories: 1: easily whupped, therefore not much of a barrier to my enemies; or 2: headed by a good general, but being a rebel he is (relatively) easily bribed and therefore would be a threat in the hands of the enemy. Either way, I don't hold with the "buffer zone" theory, but as I usually play in Domination mode rather than GA that may colour my analysis - the only reasons I apply for NOT conquering a province are 1: it would be too vulnerable or weaken my border armies, or 2: I don't want to go to war with its current owners (yet).

The other big threat of creating/maintaining rebel lands is the dreaded re-emergence. A province that one year has a paltry handful of grey peasants may the next harbour ten stacks of a once-vanquished enemy. Not great on your border, as this cash-strapped re-emerging faction will be looking to expand!

Contrary to Sensei Warrior's experience, I HAVE encountered rebels attacking. It's not common, but also it's not impossible. It seems more likely to occur where a rebel faction already controls more than one province. It's not wise to turn your back on rebels any more than a dodgy neighbour.

I have seen rebels attacking repeatedly, quite notoriously if they own both Pomerania and Prussia.
In one of my Byzantine campaign I had a major problem with continually escaping rebel ship that damaged my trade, for about 40 years or so...

I keep rebel buffers only when I do not want to get involved with other powers (avoid early taking of Toulouse while playing English to postpone war with HRE, Aragon), or if I want to lure them out to less defensible position.

Otherwise I agree with Sensei warrior and others - I attack rebels almost at any occasion, especially if it is beneficial to trade (e.g. Sweden).

Before I knew much about re-emergencies, I tried using a rebel province as a buffer between me and the enemy. Then the French re-emerged. Sacre bleu! I learned the hard way.
:oops:

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Contrary to Sensei Warrior's experience, I HAVE encountered rebels attacking. It's not common, but also it's not impossible. It seems more likely to occur where a rebel faction already controls more than one province. It's not wise to turn your back on rebels any more than a dodgy neighbour.

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Uh OH! ~:doh: Um well, I guess I'm going to have to clear up a couple of rebel issues in a game I got going on.

I honestly have never seen that happen, not that I doubt both you and Sirron. Have you guys seen it happen when playing VI 2.01 or a similar version of vanilla MTW?

If thats the case then my opinion of rebels have shifted to conquering a little quicker than I suggested in my initial post.

Just about anyone who's played as the English can tell you that "rebels" (in their case, the Scots) don't just sit there. ~D

I usually don't bother with rebel buffer zones, unless by a happy coincidence it happens to work out that way. Probably the best example I can think of is when I'm the Aragonese/Castille-Loen/Portuguese and I'm at war with the Almoravids. I generally push them back across north Africa until they only have Cyrenacia left. Once there, the Almos usually just sit there until they die off from being unable to pay their troops. After that, they'll occasionally respawn with a couple large stacks, but they still just sit there until they go rebel again. Wash, rinse, & repeat.

In this case, the Almos serve as an excellent buffer between me and the Fatamids (Egyptians), with whom I don't like to tangle until my armies are stronger and my kingdom has been re-organized. Generally, however, situations like this are pretty rare for me. It's only every once in a while that my interests are better served by leaving buffer states alone, as opposed to just taking them over (via either conquest or bribery).

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Originally Posted by Martok

Just about anyone who's played as the English can tell you that "rebels" (in their case, the Scots) don't just sit there. ~D

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I've played the English alot. Actually, they are one of the only Catho factions I'm good at. Of course, Scotland ranks as the 2nd provence to be conquered, just after I bribe the Welsh, so I've never seen them jump the line. Don't mind me I'm just surprised that after all the years I've played I've never encountered a rebel attack from another provence. Then again this is the 2nd or 3rd thread that has brought up something I've never seen before. Maybe I'm just not paying attention.

You get very few rebel launched attacks, and the rebels tend not to build up their provinces, though sometimes there are pleasant surprises when you take over ownership. I will considering bribing them as well, as this helps with not having to rebuild. As to keeping borders to a minimum, if I can, I will do it. But since I did a lot of raiding earlier aganist the HRE and the now the Italians, the Hungarians, and the Polish, leaving behind rebel lands was easier and more cost effective than trying to hold onto a bloated empire with mercenaries.

Generally, I go with the general stance taken here, that it's usually not the best thing to leave rebel buffer provinces. In my current HRE campaign, though, I've come across the practicability of doing so, simply to postpone the moment when yet another faction decides to engage in hostilities with you, completely unprovoked as usual....this way, the one or another much-needed trade florin can roll into the portfolio before new conflicts erupt. for example, the Cumans have 3 stacks in Prussia and Pomerania is all what's left of the Danish empire, garrisoned by two stacks. Now, why should I conquer them, even though they desperately keep attacking my superior border armies and become rebel once I kill off their king? this would risk the trade revenues from the cumans seriously, since they own a lot of ports but no ships THANK ***, so I stick to a similar strategy as Martok does with the Almos. I just found these situations are not as exceptional as mentioned (it's similar in Croatia where the vanished Hungarians left two stacks and an 'unbribable' general ~D, a perfect shield against the Byz). So....thumbs up for rebel buffers, at least as long as everyone else keeps attacking you relentlessly!

To Sensei Warrior:

I play MTW v 1.00! Incredible, but that´s it. Rebel attacks are rare, but happen on various difficulty levels.

I have experienced attack of more than 1000 Prussians to newly conquered Pomerania (previously rebel owned). Actually, the rebels withdrew their troops from Pom. to Prussia and avoided battle with my brave Spanish soldiers. Both stacks counterattacked next turn, which I did not expect and defeated me in a lake-battle. I have crushed them using reserves following turn.

The funny thing happened - what is left is the province of Prussia with no troops and building whatsoever. That is what ironically, I consider an excellent buffer. The empty, potentially rebellious province that was never owned by any faction during previous gameplay ( no risk of reappearances). Poles are weak and my allies and Prussia keeps me at the distance from Hungarian troops in Lithuania.

I have no intention to conquer this province in the near future (20+ years)...

@ Sensei Warrior

I'm using VI 2.01 and also play quite a few different MTW mods. I think the rebels that come from civil wars or rebellions as oposed to the "starting" rebels may be a bit more aggressive, but that's just a gut feeling with no evidence whatsoever!

In one game I found most of the east controlled by a single rebel faction (probably the Livs, IIRC) and they had at least six provinces and a real taste for Lebensraum. I don't know what makes this happen as opposed to each region having its own rebels. I know when rebels retreat from a province they just join the faction next door, but it still doesn't explain the growth though.

There's always something new cropping up, it's what keeps the game so fresh after a few years playing - I've never known another game that has lasted so well, and still have surprises in store.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

There's always something new cropping up, it's what keeps the game so fresh after a few years playing - I've never known another game that has lasted so well, and still have surprises in store.

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I Agree. There are so many suprising elements. As Sirron said this is about the third thread were something new has appeared.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

I think the rebels that come from civil wars or rebellions as oposed to the "starting" rebels may be a bit more aggressive, but that's just a gut feeling with no evidence whatsoever!

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All of the rebels are actually 1 faction, they cannot have a different behavioural AI as far as I know. They seem to use a passive AI. They can attack, especially if they're already at war with you, and especially if you have a small garrisson and they have a large force. The rebels that come from uprisings tend to be in larger numbers, hence they are more likely to attack you.

As to buffer zones, I don't use them. You're leaving open territory for your rivls to expand into, simple as that. Some provinces are just better left alone until you are ready, but buffer zones don't come into it.

@Sirron: I can't believe you have MTW v1.0! You should install the v1.1 patch for the reasons below:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

New Features
------------

Here are a list of feature changes that have
been added:

1) Enabled console commands added on MP
menus (excluding LAN). The commands are:
#ignore - to ignore all chat from
that player
#unignore - to see their chat
again
#kick - to kick a player from
the lobby of your game (host only)
#ban - to stop that player
joining any game you host
#unban - to allow a previously
banned player to join any game you host
#afk - to tell people you're away from
your keyboard
2) Messages added to report players hosting
games, joining or leaving rooms.
3) Added 'z' and 'x' to switch off drawing
certain types on the campaign map.
4) Added 'v' to show status of trade routes
on the campaign map.
5) There is now a limit on the number of
artillery units in a rebellion.
6) AI will take accessibility of walls into
account when deciding where to bombard
in a castle assault.
7) Turned off keyboard typing sound in MP
menus.
8) In Glorious Achievements: when multiple
factions have around the same points as
the player, it's now easier to
distinguish who has more points.
9) In MP 'T' is now used to talk to
everyone (except in French, see below),
'Y' is to talk to allies only.
10) In MP in the French language version
only 'M' is talk to everyone.


Compatibility
------------

1) Radeon 7200 - Improved loading and delays
on strategic map when selecting units,
provinces, after year-end sequence.


Improvements
------------

Single Player Improvements:

1) Campaign map stability improved. This
includes issues addressed for specific
cases.
2) Savegame reliability increased greatly.
3) Windows 2000 support fixed. Occasional
instability was previously noticed.
4) Artillery is now working when cycled
as reinforcements.
5) The header text no longer overlaps the
text in the 'could not uncover secret
vice message' when attempting to uncover
a secret vice of a general with a spy.
6) The brother of a king now gets a "son
matures" event generated for him if he
doesn't come of age before the succession
(of his older brother).
7) Fleets escaping from a sea battle do so
at their own speed.
8) Fleet AI has been tweaked to increase
number of trade routes.
9) Removed the ability to build more than
one of certain unique buildings in your
provinces. Was possible to build, for
instance, 2 Grand Mosques at the same time.
10) Tweaked Crusade AI.[/B]
11) Multiple famines in the same region no
longer occur.
12) "Loyalty traffic light" is now always up
to date.
13) Mode to mode hang bug - caused by
attempting tutorial after starting
campaign game is fixed.
14) Mode to mode hang bug - caused by
attempting campaign after starting
tutorial is fixed.
15) Fixed replays not working properly when
bringing on reinforcements in battles.
16) Fixed right-clicking on a ship to bring
up info parchment and occasionally
producing a blank parchment.
17) Re-enabled log files.
18) If a fight drags on for a long time, then
the factors start to get increased until
one or other of the combatants dies.
19) The AI will be more careful with its
generals and kings in combat.
20) The AI plays more dynamically with its
cavalry. It'll often break off from combat
against infantry, and either charge back,
or attack at another point.
21) Improved replay stability.
22) The Trade income penalty now has an effect
when one of the Vices and Virtues a
general may have is Venal. This gives a
-20% penalty to both Trade income and
Agricultural income.
23) On the third year round in the campaign
tutorial, the missing red button on the
information window is now added.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

24) Transition between early and high, high
and late periods: if the player has any
units (such as the king/princes/royal
knights) being retrained/upgraded when the
time period changes, the units will no
longer be lost.
25) All the listed vices and virtues will now
affect the Generals immediately, not
randomly.
26) Game Options tab on the Mini Map (if they
turn "Show Computer Moves" off) bug fixed.
27) When "Show computer moves" is on (and by
pressing End Turn) the computer moves will
now be shown.
28) When reinforcements are called during a 3D
battle, the new units are now able to use
the Group function to place them into a
group with other reinforced units.

29) All non-intended factions (including
Muslim factions) can no longer build Swiss
pikemen.
30) After installing the game, if the user
attempts to launch the game in 16 colors a
message will appear stating that the game
needs to be in 256 colors or better to run
properly, the game will not output an
illegal operation.
31) The Vice/Virtue "True Zealot" - that was
listed as giving the owner +30% Zeal in
whichever province he is in - now changes
the Zeal in his home province (where he is
governor) when the general in question is
elsewhere.
32) The Vice/Virtue "Very nervous" now properly
gives a +1 bonus to acumen when this is
assigned.
33) The Vice/Virtue "Master of numbers" gives
a +3 bonus to acumen correctly.
34) The Vice/Virtue "Fanatic" gives a +40%
bonus to the zeal of governed provinces
correctly.
35) When playing a catholic faction full
campaign, the player is now unable to build
multiple cathedrals and gain the excess
income from each cathedral.
36) Upon winning a Historical Campaign Battle
if you select the first option, Replay
Battle, and then quit from that battle,
your progress is no longer lost.
37) If the player has the widescreen option
on, they can now see the tooltips.
38) Remaining unit(s) can no longer be grouped
by itself/themselves.
39) Glory goals: You can now see exactly how
many points each faction has in total -
previously you could only see the height
of the bars (which isn't precise enough
for you to be sure) or go to each faction
in turn and count up the red dots for each
goal.
40) Playing a High period Russian campaign,
the player starts with an armourer's guild
in two provinces and the units granted to
the player all have silver shields. This
now functions correctly.
41) In a Late or High period campaign with the
Danish, the player can now build/train the
correct ships.
42) The leaders' portraits will now not be
able show the same picture when a new leader
takes the throne or the same as any other
faction at that time.
43) The Golden Horde Emerge panel now says
"...None are safe from this new threat. A
number of other rebellions in progress have
declared their allegiance to this faction."
44) Inquisitors trying your mercenaries for
heresy now say mercenaries or your faction
name instead of rebels.
45) If you have a general that, due to vices,
has a negative valour on the battlefield,
the negative number representation will now
be shown correctly.
46) Famine messages no longer shown more than
once.
47) AI will now pick a balanced force of their
best units as the initial 16
48) AI can withdraw beaten up units so that a
fresh reinforcement can come on.
49) All the player's artillery pieces are
chosen in the initial 16.
50) Buildings now correctly give valour
upgrades.
51) Some changes to unit balancing.

Multiplayer Improvements:

1) Improved GameSpy connection menu to
clarify CD key entry (you do not have to
enter it for every game).
2) Fixed game list / player list refresh
problems.
3) A warning is added to the Host MP Game
menu to remind hosts that they can't host
from behind a firewall or router.
4) Improved performance & refresh rate on
game lobby.
5) Game now redirects people to Activision
site after they register a GameSpy account
through the game.
6) Game now correctly handles multiple MP
games with the same server name.
7) Game now remembers selected player name
in chatrooms (previously it kept dropping
back to 'Room', making private
conversations tricky).
8) Game now correctly updates 'playing'
status for players after they finish an
MP game.
9) Player's army no longer routed if he
drops from an MP game.
10) Fixed booting of people with the same
CD key (so it always happens).
11) Game now sends useful game results to
GameSpy server at the end of an MP game.
12) Various fixes made to make replays work
better for MP games.
13) Addition of faction vs. same faction MP
battles.
14) Various crashout problems fixed on
internet menus and in MP battles.

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@Sirron: I can't believe you have MTW v1.0! You should install the v1.1 patch for the reasons below:

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Or you could simply get VI, :balloon3:!

Thank you for advice.

I am so enjoying my old version of MTW that I do not want to start play VI and XL version for a long time (even though I really look forward to play Cumans, Bulgarians, not mentioning all the Saxon factions etc.).

However, I will install V1.01 patch after your kind advice. The question is: will I be able to finish my current campaigns (on V1.00) after patch installation? Sorry for a stupid one...

Regarding buffer zones and re-emergencies - sometimes it becomes a real challenge if you fight deep in Central Europe, and suddenly a faction reemerges in strength behind your lines...

That is my single objection to reality of MTW play. There would be no chance in medieval Europe to keep huge empires as you often command in mid-game. Feudal lords and neighbors would tear sooner or later your kingdom apart.
The Shogun and unification of Japan is quite realistic concept...

Still, it is the best strategy game I have played on PC.

Hmm, as I mentioned earlier, these buffer zones came about because of raiding I did with cash earned and no intention of holding the land after it was razed. The troops planted there as rebels do hinder opponents, as do the razed buildings, because as I mentioned earlier, the rebels tend not to build (or rebuild), so any faction that moves in has to build the province themselves. Further, as I recently play GA games, the expansion of my territory is not always necessary.

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Originally Posted by Sirron

Thank you for advice.

I am so enjoying my old version of MTW that I do not want to start play VI and XL version for a long time (even though I really look forward to play Cumans, Bulgarians, not mentioning all the Saxon factions etc.).

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If you already own VI you should install it, as it won't stop you playing the original MTW campaigns, in fact it improves them, and adds new units.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sirron

However, I will install V1.01 patch after your kind advice. The question is: will I be able to finish my current campaigns (on V1.00) after patch installation? Sorry for a stupid one...

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Finish your current campaign first, then delete all of your saves and install the patch. Be sure to download the correct language version of the v1.1 patch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sirron

Regarding buffer zones and re-emergencies - sometimes it becomes a real challenge if you fight deep in Central Europe, and suddenly a faction reemerges in strength behind your lines...

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To avoid re-emergence keep a close eye on province loyalty. This should be above 120% or factions will reemerge. Watchtowers, Border Forts, Churches, Militia Buildings and Brothels all help the loyalty of provinces, as do spies (alot) and a 200 man peasant garrison (the only use for peasants).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sirron

That is my single objection to reality of MTW play. There would be no chance in medieval Europe to keep huge empires as you often command in mid-game. Feudal lords and neighbors would tear sooner or later your kingdom apart.
The Shogun and unification of Japan is quite realistic concept...

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Well that is a bit unrealistic. I play domination games but don't for 100%. I usually give up once I've taken and controlled what I want and there is no longer much of a threat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sirron

Still, it is the best strategy game I have played on PC.

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:2thumbsup:

To Mac and Rufus. Thanks for the reply. I just thought that maybe you were playing a Mod that made the rebels alot more aggresive. I took care of the Rebel problem in one of the games I got going on now based on your info. Thanks a bunch

I agree that after playing this game for a number of years, strange nuances keep cropping up to help keep things fresh. This is by far and away my most favorite game.

I agree with CheziScrotus about VI. It foes make the "regular game" alot better, with new units, a slightly smarter AI, and the general bug squashing.

One thing I did miss since patching up (or maybe going to VI) was the way mercs behaved. I think it was the vanilla v1 which allowed you to not only merge merc units, but merge them into non-merc units (or putting them on the proper payroll to recognise valiant service, as I liked to think of it :laugh4: ).

One of my favourite changes was the improved re-inforcement deployment, because that finally allowed for multi-stack battles to be properly planned for rather than taking the reinforcements "as they come".

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9) Removed the ability to build more than
one of certain unique buildings in your
provinces. Was possible to build, for
instance, 2 Grand Mosques at the same time.

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Ahh the memories. Was able to play around with about 10-15 production centers for Nizari's with that one. :2thumbsup:
Oh, those muslim rebellions with Mongolian highlander clansmen in Georgia was quite funny to. :laugh4: :inquisitive:

The re-emergence funktion reduces the strength quite a lot for the rebels. As the AI is based on Shogun's and in Shogun I've seen considerble empires for the rebels (they were churning out more than 1000 men a turn).
But that the Novogrods very often did die out due to rebels in v 1.1 and that I've seen rebels attack (like the Scots), seems to indicate that under right circumstances rebels will attack. But they often require quite favorable conditions to attack.

As for rebels, I rarely use buffert zones. I usually expand into them when I can or want (constantly expanding makes GA a bit too short).

Th rebel buffer zones also help in another way, as the rebels slow your opponents from　taking the provinces near you. I'd rather they have to fight off the rebels to retake their depleted lands (whose cash mysteriously went into my coffers:laugh4: ) and save my troops for taking the province later when and if it is useful for me to do so. This often is a strategy that goes hand in hand with the scorched earth policy, so I am a bit surprised that you don't make use of it. Now in the case of Anjou and Britany, I may eventually take them, but at the moment, no, I'll let the French fight the rebels (though the French may be rebels soon themselves, as their king is endangered).

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Originally Posted by gaijinalways

The rebel buffer zones also help in another way, as the rebels slow your opponents from　taking the provinces near you. I'd rather they have to fight off the rebels to retake their depleted lands (whose cash mysteriously went into my coffers:laugh4: ) and save my troops for taking the province later when and if it is useful for me to do so. This often is a strategy that goes hand in hand with the scorched earth policy, so I am a bit surprised that you don't make use of it. Now in the case of Anjou and Britany, I may eventually take them, but at the moment, no, I'll let the French fight the rebels (though the French may be rebels soon themselves, as their king is endangered).

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Yes, I see what you mean. And hopefully if enemy factions attempt to take it, the loyalty will cause larger rebellion.

Yes, it can be effective while you tech up your other provinces. In my current campaign, I have retaken Milan, but I simply put the minimum in it (fort and tower) so as to reconnect Venice to my empire. Often when you retake these buffer zones, they'll often not be your soldier building provinces, just mere 'filler' provinces. I plan to do the same with Anjou and Aquitaine when I finally force the French out, though I wouldn't mind getting another ransom (if the French have any money left):2thumbsup: !

I never look upon most provinces as necessary. You have to look at a long term strategy of rip and smash, and leave, and on to the next province. Of course, if you can grab a jewel, try to keep it intact if it fits in with your line of defense and your general strategy for expansion.

Of course, you may use crusades to achieve this end as well, I have yet to use a crusade though I will probably start soon to crusade so as to gain GA points. Crusades are another example of getting others to do your dirty work with your general in charge. I hope to soon crusade as I tech up and look for new rebel lands to seed:laugh4: !

Playing XL mod, there aren't all that many rebels to even use as buffers, and if new ones show up (such as a faction dynasty dying out without heirs) there's usually someone nearby powerful enough to scoop up the provinces quickly.

If I do want a buffer zone it's usually if I'm turtling and teching/saving up. In that case if someone attacks me I'll sometimes respond by invading their neighboring province, taking the castle, then razing everything to the ground and withdrawing. They can take it back, but they can't build troops there or retreat if I invade again.

Ajax

Ah, another difference with the vanilla version. I don't always smash and grab, but I so enjoyed grabbing better mercs at the start of this campaign, so I couldn't resist. It also raised my cash level quickly, and now I have finally started building my navy. I'll probably do less razing as we progress, but it still is useful as usually I don't expand and build in every province.

I have found that rebel-held provinces can and will attack you on occasion. This happened to me in my current campaign as the English. I had led a successful attack on the Argonese in Argon, but lost it in the very next turn. A bordering rebel province (once controlled by the Spanish) launched an attack with two full stacks! It surprised the heck out of me, because I never knew this could happen before. But in the two years that I have been playing MTW, this is the only time I have ever witnessed it. So I think the odds are remote enough that I would feel secure about leaving my back undefended against rebels.

I was sifting through the MTW Guides and saw a number of references in the Russian guide when they talked about the appearance of the Horde. A number of posts were made about rebels attacking. Here is what I gleaned:

1. Rebels will attack although it is rare.

2. The Rebels typically severely outnumber the army in provence they are going to attack before they commit to an invasion.

3. It also seems this is more of a problem with certain provences on the Eastern side of the map although I can't remember which ones they are.

That part of the thread was started when someone mentioned he killed off the Khan and heir and they went rebel. The huge rebel stacks then started attacking outlying Provences.

Alot of the posters didn't seem too surprised and gave bits of info about there own problems with rebels attacking. The MTW Guide for the Russians/Novrogod is only 3 pages so its worth the read.

Maybe its just more surprising to us players who don't play the Eastern side of the map all that much? I know I typically don't play Poland, Hungary, and Novrogod, which are the Factions near the more aggresive Rebels.

Yes, I haven't really played with starting in the East nor have I had problems with the horde (I generally don't play to 100% if it is domination, stopping at 60%), but I could see where more rebels would be a cause for alarm. I doubt anyone with two stacks would just sit around (unless they were just peasants, but wait the French and the Germans loaded up with those guys!:dizzy2: and then attacked me:2thumbsup: ).

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Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

3. It also seems this is more of a problem with certain provences on the Eastern side of the map although I can't remember which ones they are.

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In my current campaign as English, I have taken over most if not all of Asia (I saw an opportunity in Scandinavia, but then just kept going). After I had eliminated the GH, I experienced a nasty little surprise, but it wasn't with the rebels. After about a year or two of taking over Volga-Bulgaria and Khazhar, the Turks suddenly re-emerged in those two provinces - 2 stacks in VB and 4 stacks in Khazhar. Not sure why they popped up there, unless perhaps this is where the GH had conquered them earlier on. But nevertheless, it was quite a surprise. I had to quickly shift my armies from my western flank over to the east - and it was right as I was about to launch a major counter-offensive against the Poles! :wall:

Ouch Alexios, re-emergence can hurt worse than rebels, especially like that.

I have been playing the Russians in High. The Provence just to the West of Lithuania on the Coast (either Pomeriania or Prussia, I know it starts with a P) has some grumpy rebels. I watched Poland take the Provence, and a few years later the Provence rebelled. I don't know what the Rebel army was made of, but there were 2 stacks of them. Poland withdrew from the Provence, and the next year one of the stacks moved to the Provence just to the South.

The Polish eventually cleared up the mess only to have the 'P' Provence rebel again later. The Poles haven't been back since.

Re-emergences can be helpful, just depends on who they attack when they come back.

Sometimes of course you can use enemies as a buffer zone. The Argonese keep refusing cease fire offers, yet they 'nicely' keep their allies the Spanish from attacking me by buffering me with the three provinces they hold. Love those buffer zones, busy attempting to create some more in the HRE empire after the Germans decided to attack me (after dropping me as an ally on the flimsy excuse that I attacked the Italian navy who I have offered countless cease fires too, all rejected). Now as I invade, and raze I am leaving behind unhappy rebels who fight the Germans and deplete their troops even more.