Both MS and UM are armed with polearms according to frogs unit guide, and as such they get a AP bonus. But do they get a bonus against cavalry as well?
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Both MS and UM are armed with polearms according to frogs unit guide, and as such they get a AP bonus. But do they get a bonus against cavalry as well?
I am pretty sure MS's do but I'm not sure about UM's but I do know that UM's get bonus's against armored units.
I'm pretty sure neither get a bonus against cavalry, at least thats what it says in the unitprod file. But I could be wrong as these two units generate a lot of confusion.
IIRC, virtually all units w/ polearms not only have the AP bonus, but also an anti-cavalry bonus, with the big exception being urban militia and militia sergeants. The cav bonus is independent of the polearm weapon.
Ajax
Thats right! I remember now. Only chivalratic foot knights and halbardiers get anti-cav bonuses!Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
Thanks for the replies! I downloaded the excellent GnomeEditor and checked the stats in the unitprod file for myself. All polearm units get +3 att against cavalry except UM and MS as ajaxfetish stated.
That explains why my MS are crap against french royal knights....
No problem, and regarding Royal Knights I like using a vice of two units of Feudal Sergeants to counter them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggus Diccus
A favorite tactic of mine as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmic
You can still get a lot out of Militia Sergeants if you pin the cavalry down with some unit and rush the MS in from behind. They´ll do a solid job, in my opinion, Militia Sergeants are definitely underrated by most people. If you know how to use them they´re great.
Second that. Their AP attack is well able to cause painful casualties esp. to heavy armoured opponents such as knights. of course, don't engage them frontally but given that MS are the only regular half-decent AP unit for catholics until high it would be a shame to completely ignore them. on the other hand UM are crap imho and do not even come into question for cannon fodder thanks to their morale.
I agree! They are great when used as flankers or to fight cavalry in the woods. I have started my second campaign as the English now and I see that I can get +1 Clansmen (and later Gallowglasses) very early. I'll try the Clansmen as the flankers and see if they perform better. They are certainly very similar to the excellent Ghazis from my first campaign as the Turks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
The English certainly has a big advantage with +1 valor for Clansmen, Gallowglasses, Billmen and Longbows easily obtained.
I can only say this much: Militia Sergeants slaughter cavalry, both heavy and light. There is no explicitly stated anti-cav bonus, but my observations on the battlefield are more than enough to tell me than not only do they get a bonus, but it is a considerable one.
With regard to UM, I am not so sure. They do seem to carve up katanks better than vikings do, but then again, I have seen them lose to berber camels in melee. I would venture a guess that they get a *very small* anticav bonus.
I have to agree with that statement in its entirety. So long as you don't have them engage head-on, Militia Seargents are very effective at taking out cavalry. They're also pretty good against heavy infantry, although again one should avoid using them in a frontal charge (unless you have a second unit of MS to flank).Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus ret.
I never have found a real use for Urban Militia. At best, I'll use them as cheap garrison troops and/or emergency reinforcements. They're not too terrible at assaulting castles, but there are other units that generally do the job much better.
Urban Militia are the units I have a soft spot for. I like Urban Militia for no real tangible reason. It's kind of like really enjoying a movie that no one else on the planet could tolerate.
I know they suck, have morale isuues, a questionable AP bonus, and have an intense allergy to Cav charges and arrows, but when I was playing the English they really saved my bacon.
I was attacked by the French, and later the Germans in the very early stages of an Early Campaign. I had virtually no buildup on the mainland, except hobbies from Aquitaine and UMs from the other 2 provences. One of the 1st UMs built ended up with a really good general 4-5* (I think he's a hero general), I think his name was Tancrid de Normandie. I managed to hold off the Germans and the French with this ragtag army, which in the beginning was made up of nothing but hobbies and UM, with the bulk being UMs.
It was a great series of battles. I had more fun with that campaign then with alot of the others. I must admit they are rather lackluster, and definately not made for frontal assaults, but like all units if there shortcomings are kept in mind they can definately get the job done.
As an aside, I kept Tancrid until I conquered the map. In the end he was a 9-10* general w/ maxed out Weapons and Armor, with a insane amount of Virtues. It was funny, in the end fielding a lowly UM general with all the English Uber-units, against a field of UberUnits. There he is a crappy UM unit that could carve up practically anything he could get his hands on and would fight to the last man if need be.
To tie it into the topic however MS and UM do not get anti-cav bonuses so, stop with spears and use them to attack from opponents side or back. Once they work their way in they will perform as expected.
Najs! What was the units valour at the end? Picture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
I wish I could remember, but this was a game I played over 2 years ago. Unfortunately the pic is also long gone, comp viruses can be extremely frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggus Diccus
Once I got done playing patty-cake with the French and HRE he already jumped a * or maybe 2, and had skilled attacker, and skilled defender. After I made a nice 4 provence Eastern Border that included Burgundy I was backstabbed by the Spanish and Argonese. I almost lost everything for a bit as he was on the eastern frontier, but I persevered. For a while I was so hard pressed he often was on the field a unit of one, just himself. I was so hard pressed for troops I often wound up leaving him by himself. Ended up being excommed for a bit, and used him to gain it all back plus the Iberian Penninsula.
He got expert defender during that. I slowly made my way across Africa and then North to Constant and the other pinch point, Georgia? During this whole time he led every battle, every crusade. I had already made him Lord Chamberlain and governor of Flanders.
During that, I started grooming him to be a killer general. He got the Educated trait line somewhere along with scant mercy. By the end he was truly the coolest toughest general I ever had.
Like I said, I think he was a hero general, whenever I played the English, and that was a number of times, I got him starting with the same stats, and same type of unit. I suppose I could recreate it if I wanted. Although, a good part of what made him was I was so hard pressed and so desperate the first part of the game. Anyways, that general was the reason I think nothing but good thoughts about lowly Urban Militia.
Was he anything like this? (about half way down the page)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
Yup kind of like the 9* Katatank, only with a pretty little gold shield and sword.
One of the other reasons I liked him was you see lots of high star generals that are Knights or Heavy Cav, but how many times do you see a high star general of a unit that isn't that great. You know Peasants, UM or 'trash' units like that. I like rooting for the underdog.
I was very proud to sculpt a general that was UM. Actually, I started another Campaign (I'm so easily distracted) with the English, and he is a general hero and starts with 4*, unfortunately, he also started with weak principles. Sigh, beggars can't be choosers.
Yes he is a hero unit. He was one of the higher-ranking nobles in the First Crusade, as a matter of fact. And yes, he quite uber. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
Yes he is. His only drawback is you get him with Weak Principles, or at least I do. Although, that's a pretty minor flaw, which is easily worked around.
The AI generally does not earn enough florins to bribe armies, usually at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
Usually, but I've had it happen to me before. Once, it was Italy, who was doing very, very well that game. I wouldn't put it past the money makers in the game, if they are doing well.
I won't ever claim that the AI bribes my armies often, but I wouldn't say it's extremely rare, either. I tend to be particularly wary of factions that are superpowers, as they are fairly likely to have enough spare cash to steal a general or two away from me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmic
Great minds think alike. ~:joker:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
I'm not saying it never happens, just not frequently. :balloon3:
Sorry, about drawing that out like that. You are right it is rare, but the few times it has happened to me practically broke me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmic
I don't know how the Italians payed for it, but that example was with one of my best generals who was leading one of my main attacking armies. He was bribed just as I was using him to restabilize my country after a rebellion.
It took me decades to claw myself out of that mess. But you are right, it does happen rarely, typically only the superpowers can do it which generally means only you.
That is the optimal roles for MS. Their armour piercing bonus is great against any armoured troops even pinned cavalry. They don't have the cavalry attacking bonus however, so are not as effective against cavalry as Chivalric Foot Knights or Halberdiers. They're also good for flank attacks on other armoured units such as CSgt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Urban Militia can be used similarly, to a lesser effect, though they need some upgrades and a good general to make their morale hold.
That´s why I hate facing Militia Sergeants as my opponents, there´s almost no unit that´s really good against them, maybe apart crossbows. They´re too heavily armoured for Chivalric Men at Arms to be effective and their AP ability lets them kill other AP units such as Chivalric Foot Knights, Halberdiers or Gothic Foot Knights too easily.
Maybe I should try Urban Militia or Woodsmen, at least something with AP, but without much armour.
Not a problem for me, I tend to ride them down with Armenian Heavy Cavalry or shoot them to pieces with Futuwwa. You could even try, dare I mention it, camels, they beat everything. :idea2:
Janissary heavy Infantry.:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmic
Never seen those, they need so much of a buildup that the AI never reaches them and even I can´t build up that much before my game ends. Surely they´re not quite that good?
The same goes for a couple of other Late era units as well, even pikemen - the basic variety, mind you - need a fortress to be buildable. I think those Late era units might be something I´ll try myself on MTW modding, as a rule they´re not quite that good to require such limitations.
They're high class units but still overrated. I use them as anti cav flankers, I prefer Janissary Infantry as my all round infantry in the later High and Late eras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Pikemen are really not worth the effort IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Not another camel preacher :no: :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by CheziScrotus XVI
Yes they're great vs cav, but CS does very well vs them outside the desert.
While almost every troop is good vs MS, MS isn't really bad vs any troop and very cheap. Practical counters vs halbs and CFK:s thanks to that price.
They're even oddly enough better vs high valored golden armoured heavy cav than CS :inquisitive: .
Camels should decimate MS in the charge, simply because camels are a cavalry and MS are basically an AP sword infantry, with no vs cavalry attack/defense bonuses. Though at a higher valour the MS should win.
p.s. my camel comment was tongue in cheek. ~;)
Although that could happen, the most likely scenario is that the MS will simply chop up the camels with a kill/loss ratio slightly higher than 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
With a poor charge, the MS even stand a good chance on winning vs 1 higher valour camels.
Tested on flat ground with arid terrain ~;)
To support that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Bedouin camel warriors: attack 2, defence 0 (IIRC, charge is 5), 40 men per unit
MS: attack 2+AP, defence 3 (IIRC, charge is 2 or 3), 60 men per unit
There's no way camels can win in frontal combat.
If your speaking of 1 on 1 flat terrain melee scenario, then the MS would indeed win.
Camels? Where's Mithrandir?
Which effort, the modding or the buildup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
I´m currently trying my hand at Pike warfare in my Spanish game, and I think - while they need too much of a buildup to be justified - they still do a very good job, if you use them properly, which takes a little time to get used to. They´re no spears, so they´re not supposed to act like them, nor are they polearms. They´re their own class, and a formation of six pike blocks moving forward in a single line is both an impressive sight as well as a hell of an equalizer. They just push everything out of their path.
Yep, Pikes are great, however with the exception of a single case I didn't bother modding them in or building up but tried Pike&Musket:TW instead where you basically start out with loads and loads of (heavily oversized) pikemen units which gradually become outdated....but in the beginning they're deadly, not quite so of course if everyone employs them.
However in vanilla and most other mods, they suffer from being severely undermanned IMHO. 4 ranks give a bonus and only 100 men in the unit: that asks for being wrapped - by units such as spearmen (ridiculous. I even lost my first proper pike battle due to this.) add to that their rather unsatisfying morale (standard pikes in any case) plus their sky-high requirements and they're pretty much superflous. with proper teched up pikes or swiss ones especially it's somewhat different, but still the manpower issue remains. Only MedMod adds 20% to the pike's unit size because of this shortcoming, but it can also be modded in manually of course.
but :focus: : I once defeated a Swiss army led by a capable general with, among others, 3 units of insurmountable armoured pikemen with a last minute rag-tag army ....okay I outnumbered them 2,5:1 or something and lost more than 2/3 of my troops but the match winners were two units of militia sergeants - granted, with all kinds of upgrades but still MS. While being extinguished themselves they held off two of the three armoured pikes and even managed to kill the Swiss general in the process. yay!
oversimplified conclusion: pike :surrender: before MS.
no seriously. they just aren't worth the effort most of the time.
The buildup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Depends on the fatigue as well ~:).Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Templar
The difference in charge could mean the militia sergs rout on impact if their morale is already low...
~:eek: WHAT!! ~:confused: Do you mean ... :no: camels no win? :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
~:mecry:
Although Ironside is probably right he is probably hoping Mithrandir does not see his post.
I agree with Ciaran about the pikes. They have a horrendous buildup and must be used differently than any other unit types, but they can be a lot of fun. I much prefer Swiss pikes to vanilla (armoured or not). They have the right numbers to form up into even blocks when six ranks deep and their morale is sky-high, as well as their other stats being very nice as well. I'd usually line up five of them in a massive phalanx block and steamroller right across the map. The key to not getting wrapped is the larger group formation. You can wrap around one unit, but five is a little harder, especially with polearms to watch the flanks and CMAA behind the phalanx to fill in any gaps. Lower build requirements might help, though, especially for the AI which hardly ever fields any.
Ajax
Hmm. Pikes should be used like riot-police tactics. To push the barbarians in the direction you want them to go. Treat like a mobile wall with very fragile corners, pretty much exactly the way ajaxfetish said. If your using just 1 or 2 units of pikes then you need to either rethink your tactics or go back to what you know best.
To desperately try to tie this back in to topic. How well would MS fare against Pikes, full frontal, unit to unit? Would they be able to work there way in to any reasonable effect, or would the Pikes stall them long enough for them to get squished by the Pikes or something else?
Hard to say, if they manage to take the pikes in the flank or rear, they´ll probably beat them. Head on, they might have difficulties.
Ajax: In my current game I don´t own Switzerland, so no Swiss (Armoured) Pikes for me :no:
But fully upgraded, even the vanilla pikes pack quite a punch, if used correctly. In contrast to spears, I´ve found, you should order pikes to attack occasionally, as long as you make sure you keep the line of your pike units intact, the line formation key is your friend - give the order to attack for one pike unit, then select the others , then hit "1" and they´ll form up in a neat line on level with the fighting unit.
Regarding the numbers, on Medium they have the same 133 men as spears.
One-on-one I think a lot depends on how many ranks into which the Pikes are formed. On 4 ranks deep or less, the Militia Sergeants seem to hold their own quite well against plain Pikemen - things get tougher for them when 5/6 ranks are used. Since MS get no rank bonus, if not threatened by cavalry they can readily use 2 ranks or less, and overlap the ends of any individual deep pike unit. If faced with integrated formations of several pike units, this edge is minimized. But considering the low costs and tech requirements for MS, I find them very useful (especially in Early) as general-purpose, do-it-all infantry. They aren't too great at anything, but don't suck either, and are cheap! Can't say that about Pikemen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
My latest tactic has been grouping a MS and a FMAA together, pointing them at a target and letting them go. Full front, flank or otherwise they tend to do pretty well. Full front was pretty wasteful, I lost the most that way, but one battle I took a pair and sent them into the right side of a mass of enemies trying to fold up a spear unit last night.
As soon as contact was made the green part of the kill ratio bar started to jump. Within a minute what was left of the mass was in full rout. I had some Jinnies scoop up the rest, for a mass execution later.
I like pikes too, and as long as they are sufficently armored, they can be a great force to reckon with. Problems arise when they get shot up:oops: ; aganist the AI I find the xbow cav and some arbalests shoot them up big time, whittling down their numbers to a manageble level, if they don't rout first.
Another problem sometimes is their movement rate, as armored up they move slow. Great for defensive battles, just camp and conquer:2thumbsup: !
This thread has got me thinking of my concept for a peasant army Portugal game. Since in XL they get a 100 man MS type unit I wanted to have decent armies of low maintenance troops. Basically I want to play a mercantile campaign, GA style. Unfortunately the Elmos have been declaring war on me forcing me to force them out of Iberia and kill a couple of their kings. Now they're down to about 200 men in Morocco after a nasty civil war. I just hope that my defensive, peasant armies can keep the Spanish at bay while I tech up my trade infrastructure.
Militia Sergeants kill horse. It's as simple as that. Armored, or unarmored, it doesn't really matter. See horse. See MS charge horse. See horse die. And don't blink.
MS have one single flaw: low morale. If they get flanked, they will break and run. So yeah, I can see ho charging them with a sacrificial unit of horse, and then flanking them with a *real* unit of horse can get them killed, but that's really not a good use for horse, light or heavy. Halberds btw, will also run in this scenario.
And Camels, these poor guys stand literally no chance vs MS, unless their numbers are ridiculously superior.
I agree on morale but churches and the etc will help out on that end. Never train units without the backing of the local Church. For a mere 200 (or is it 400?) Florins you've considerably increased your staying power.
Militia Sergeants are AP infantry, not anti cavrly infantry, like Chivalric Foot Knights, Halberdiers, Swiss Halberdiers, JHI and Billmen. What makes MS so effective is their AP attack, and half decent armour.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg