Most Under/Over Rated RTW unit?

I confess gladly i don't play vanilla or anyvanilla promoting mods; I play the Dominus Mod for RTR. But i can still give my opinion.

Overrated:

Horse Archers:

They are good units yes but players talkf of using 100% HA armies. HA's, like msot light cavalry, cna be owned by heavy archer fire in return or even Legion Pila. The fact is HA's are pwoerful supplements but they are not the sturdy structure to build an army off of. Even if you do exploit the stupid AI with them its still no fun at all.

Underrated:

Falxmen. They have massive atatck and are extremely tough troops to go head t o head with. When i amde a brief foray into the good ol' Balkans Barbarians, the Flaxmen dominated the hard-hitting section of my army.

Overrated: Praetorian/Urban Cohorts

I'm not saying these guys aren't good; I'm saying that in many cases they're just overkill. Early and regular Legionary Cohorts can do all the things they can, can be present in greater numbers because they come earlier and they're vastly cheaper, and take less time to make (2 turns as opposed to 1). They're nice if you can recruit and financially support them in bulk, but I'll take a full stack of Legionary's plus supporting troops instead of having a half-stack of Urbans plus supporting troops.

Underrated: Eastern Infantry and Gothic Cavalry

I'll admit that I'm partial to the way these units simply look. However, Eastern Infantry make superb garrison units because of their cheap cost and great numbers when you stack them in your square, where they won't rout. Routing is why most people don't, or even can't, use them, but the "Poor Morale" trait is not only unfair, but hardly accurate historically. Remove them, and suddenly they actually have value on the field (so long as used en masse, which is something I think most people don't understand about them). As for Gothic Cavalry - I never, ever see anyone talk about them in any context, which I find bizarre because they're simply awesome heavy cavalry. During my Germania campaign, I never bothered with Berserkers or Nightraiders (or whatever those things are called) when I was fighting Rome - give me some Chosen Archer Warbands and Gothic Cavalry over those guys any day.

Extremely valid point about those Eastern Infantry. In RTR as Mercs their mental stats are:

stat_mental 20, disciplined, highly_trained

And are steadfast troops. Great garrisons especially for infantry poor people like Parthia.

Overrated? Pretorian Cohorts.

Underrated? Numidian Cavalry.

Unlike with MTW, I can't really think of any units in RTW that are under- or overrated. Units in RTW usually are often either uber, total crap and are universally recognised as such. There's also units that are average like hastati or plain hoplites, but RTW sadly strikes me as a game that favours armies composed entirely out of elite units.

Over rated: Spartan Hoplites

Under Rated: Peasents

Overated: Beserkers

Underated: Hastai

Urbans arent overated, they are one of if not the best unit in the game. Eastern infantry are archer fodder at best in RTW. Gothic cav cannot stand up to praetorian cav.

Over rated: Triarii
Under rated: Eastern Spearmen (those phalanx soldeirs that Hayk gets)

Over-rated: Chariots. Just a waste of space IMHO.

Under-rated: Onagers. These bad boys are absolutely critical in my high-tech armies when attacking, defending, or taking a city.

Well onagers are good in single battles, but they can be pretty tough in campaign. They have an extremely limited movement range that can slow up armies greatly.

Overrated: None. (Talking MP)

Downrated: None. (Talking MP)

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Overrated:

Horse Archers:

They are good units yes but players talkf of using 100% HA armies. HA's, like msot light cavalry, cna be owned by heavy archer fire in return or even Legion Pila. The fact is HA's are pwoerful supplements but they are not the sturdy structure to build an army off of. Even if you do exploit the stupid AI with them its still no fun at all.

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Get out of here.. HA is the most powerful unit in RTW/BI.

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Underrated:

Falxmen. They have massive atatck and are extremely tough troops to go head t o head with. When i amde a brief foray into the good ol' Balkans Barbarians, the Flaxmen dominated the hard-hitting section of my army.

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Have you tried some Urbans mixed with cav charges?

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Overrated: Praetorian/Urban Cohorts

I'm not saying these guys aren't good; I'm saying that in many cases they're just overkill. Early and regular Legionary Cohorts can do all the things they can, can be present in greater numbers because they come earlier and they're vastly cheaper, and take less time to make (2 turns as opposed to 1). They're nice if you can recruit and financially support them in bulk, but I'll take a full stack of Legionary's plus supporting troops instead of having a half-stack of Urbans plus supporting troops.

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I think you mean 'un-needed' rather than overrated.. But yea, you can be right in SP.

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Underrated: Eastern Infantry and Gothic Cavalry

I'll admit that I'm partial to the way these units simply look. However, Eastern Infantry make superb garrison units because of their cheap cost and great numbers when you stack them in your square, where they won't rout. Routing is why most people don't, or even can't, use them, but the "Poor Morale" trait is not only unfair, but hardly accurate historically. Remove them, and suddenly they actually have value on the field (so long as used en masse, which is something I think most people don't understand about them). As for Gothic Cavalry - I never, ever see anyone talk about them in any context, which I find bizarre because they're simply awesome heavy cavalry. During my Germania campaign, I never bothered with Berserkers or Nightraiders (or whatever those things are called) when I was fighting Rome - give me some Chosen Archer Warbands and Gothic Cavalry over those guys any day.

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Eastern Infantry are useless IMO, though Gothic Cav is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Tyranus

Well onagers are good in single battles, but they can be pretty tough in campaign. They have an extremely limited movement range that can slow up armies greatly.

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I find that by the time enough can be produced to make a difference, the campaign has progressed enough that you're fighting in densly populated areas where movement points mean little.

Example: In the Civil War you usually target Italy and Greece (if not Brutii)- usually these two places are already upgraded to Highways, not to mention the already small distance between cities.

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

Over rated: Triarii
Under rated: Eastern Spearmen (those phalanx soldeirs that Hayk gets)

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under rated: triarii
under rated 2:eastern infantry
under rated 3:royal pikemen
over rated: urban cohort
ha!

I did not mean Eastern Infantry, I meant the Phalanx soldiers that Armenia gets, damm those guys along with horse archers was almost my whole army*.
*Of course add a few cataphracts and mercanaries just for good measure.

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

I did not mean Eastern Infantry, I meant the Phalanx soldiers that Armenia gets, damm those guys along with horse archers was almost my whole army*.
*Of course add a few cataphracts and mercanaries just for good measure.

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oh. their underated too then.

Underated: Anything that is Roman

Overated: Anything that is not Roman.

It is vitually impossible to beat Rome in multiplayer if you are not Rome. They are just the best and that is all there is too it.

Overrated: Berserkers/Hounds of Culunn also pharaohs archers
Underrated: Eastern Inf. i never got why they are so weak...

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

I meant the Phalanx soldiers that Armenia gets,

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Do you mean Heavy Spearmen? I cant remember what else Armenia gets from the Phalanx style troops... Pikemen?

don't know really which units are overrated, but Numidian cavalry is vastly underrated

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Originally Posted by gmjapan

Do you mean Heavy Spearmen? I cant remember what else Armenia gets from the Phalanx style troops... Pikemen?

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That is it. I don't know why I did not know that. I must have recruited dozens of them.

most under rated unit in RTW is eastern infantry (the only native melee infatry available for Parthians, and you can't take settlements with them cuz their are too weak and the best Parthian units can't dismount for siege)

most over rated are British chariots (sometimes too uber powerful)

I suspect that a lot of the problems with Eastern Infantry is that CA lumped together too much in acategory for simplicity's sake.

Historically, their would have been a lot of troops that really were crap. Too many rulers of that area wanted numbers and lots of their infantry was nothing more than jumped up peasants tricked out as spearmen or javeliners. Those troops, on the rare occasions that they stood to against a disciplined opponent (rather than running), they mostly made the veteran unit wear out their arm muscles stabbing them.

However, and CA doesn't reflect this enough, there were a number of sub-groups whose morale and training were substantially better than the hastily assembled levies. Vanilla RTW only shows us the Judean zealots, but there were other examples. Take the same equippage and add 4 morale points and you have a different unit. I wish they'd added more of the variants for the other factions.

Another overated unit that I forgot is Scythed Chariots. Two or three volleys of fire arrows from a few units of archers makes these guys completely usless.

under rated: Slingers, Bastarnae, Falxmen, Bronze/silver shield pikemen

over rated: Romans....(the entire army lol)

Overrated - elephants. Expensive, can slow to produce, hard to control and they go mental

Underrated - the 'umble levy spearman, or perhaps barbarian stlye sword/axeman e.g. Falx? Yes rubbish at pinning troops for a long period but good morale and warcry can make the enemy wet their knickers and run after the first blow of a weapon.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Over-rated: Chariots. Just a waste of space IMHO.

Under-rated: Onagers. These bad boys are absolutely critical in my high-tech armies when attacking, defending, or taking a city.

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Egyptian Heavy Chariots? Overrated? ...how on earth did you ever draw that conclusion?

I never knew Numidian Cavalry were so underrated. I know whenever I play as Carthage I buy as many of them as possible. Fighting the Romans without them is darn near impossible, fighting Numidia without them is impossible, and fighting anyone else without them just isn't a good idea.

TM

Fighting Numidia isnt impossible without them, almost all numidian units get torched by archers. I think they are decent, but by no means a necessity.

Underrated: any type of slinger(awesome at city defense)
Overrated: all Egyptian chariots, hastati(you can almost hear them saying "kill me")

Over rated : German Spearmen, seriously who needs chosen axemen when you have German Spearmen ?

Under Rated : I'll go with Eastern Infantry.

:balloon2:

Over-rated: Any units controlled by the AI

Under-rated: Any units controlled by me

Seriously, good units in the AI's hands just take a little bit longer to die, bad units in my hands take a few more casualties before routing the AI ~:(

Chariots are so overrated. And the Scythed variety are just plain useless. Uncontrollable, and they run amok far too easily. Plus the amount of micromanagement required...

In the end, they only have their fear factor.

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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

Over-rated: Any units controlled by the AI

Under-rated: Any units controlled by me

Seriously, good units in the AI's hands just take a little bit longer to die, bad units in my hands take a few more casualties before routing the AI ~:(

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why playing on hard?

Actually chariots are quite usefull, especially missle chariots like British Light Chariots. They have a good missle attack (10) and have 2 hitpoints. They only cost 500 Denari. When used with cantaribain circle in campaign or when it is allowed in multiplayer are very hard to hit. They can even put up a decent fight at close range. I agree scythed chariots are pretty worthless as they run amok after a few fire arrows volleys. Other heavy Chariots like Egypts are effective against cavalry and have 3 hitpoints also. Although Chariots are crap agianst speamen like triari and such.

Yeah, if I am being besieged by an army led by Scythed Chariots I know I am going to hold the town! I only need a could of poor infantry to tie them up and some missiles to rout them. I dont even bother trying to hold the walls.

I form up in the town center and because the chariots move last after the walls are down they will hit all their own troops on the way in, get to my troops first, be routed and then hit all their own troops in their out again!

The less I kill the better! So many heroic victories in the east thanks to the enemy units. So I agree, scythed chariots are overrated.

the thing i hate about chariots is that they scare people. thats normal, but almost my whole army routed be cause they were near a chariot. anyway i can always take out the fear factor if i want.

Once I besieged a city with relative few men but with a great Seleucid general. I'm deploying my troops far away from the wall-less city. Suddendly, the enemy is two bowshots away, my general gets under attack. I think: "What...." , zoom in and get the message: "Your general died a heroic death". Then I see my own chariots circling through my cavalry and I understand :embarassed:

Overated-anything in a chariot or on an elephant,
underated- the Gallic woodsmen unit, or something along those lines, its an archer unit with stealth, don't know exact name, friend has game. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Celtic_Guardian

Overated-anything in a chariot or on an elephant,
underated- the Gallic woodsmen unit, or something along those lines, its an archer unit with stealth, don't know exact name, friend has game. :furious3:

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The unit you're referring to are Forresters and yes, they are the best archer unit in the game.

As for the chariots? This debate is floating around a lot lately and I seem to be in the middle of it. Look at my profile and look back at a thread I made a few days ago about my epic battles with the Gauls as the Brits.

Sorry, but the bottomline is that anyone who thinks chariots are overrated, just doesn't know what to do with them.

Just to address something else I just saw on this thread:

Egyptian Chariots and British Chariots are NOT equal. British chariots are more effective and cost less because the Brits are considered THE primary chariot faction in the game. Look at elephants...sure the Seleucid army has 'em but they're stronger and cheaper when you buy them as the Carthaginians. Again, as with the Brits and Chariots...Carthage is considered THE primary elephant faction.

This is all just part of the balancing process by the devs...and I think they've done quite well (or did...doubt they've worked on it much lately).

Lastly, about chariots: Yes the Egyptian Chariots are a little overrated, although Egyptian Heavy chariots are still among the fastest kill rate in the game. British Heavy Chariots= sorry, nothing kills as much as fast if used properly. Along with the fanatical infantry...Brittania has one of the most powerful militaries in the game IMO.

Hmm anyone who said that it's impossible to defeat Roman armies online when you're not roman is wrong imo. With nicely balanced Seleucids I've been able to destroy all roman armies thrown at me (when I still played online that is)

overrated: chariots (they're quite effective if you can run through a unit but if they get stuck, game's over, so just throw some more units at them mostly)

underrated basternae

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Originally Posted by Conradus

Hmm anyone who said that it's impossible to defeat Roman armies online when you're not roman is wrong imo. With nicely balanced Seleucids I've been able to destroy all roman armies thrown at me (when I still played online that is)

overrated: chariots (they're quite effective if you can run through a unit but if they get stuck, game's over, so just throw some more units at them mostly)

underrated basternae

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I've beaten Carthaginian and Roman armies online using barb factions.

Then again, I've also lost 3000 men with this tactic :furious3:

:skull: Ouch. 3000? That's one hek of a Pyrrhic victory. Highest losses I've got in victory online is about 1800-2200

Over-rated:
Praetorian and Urban Cohorts -Like the guys who mentioned this earlier, they're just plain overkill. Plus they're so expensive to train and maintain.

The elephants and Scythed chariots- Sure they cause alot of havoc, but hit them with a few arrow and they'll make a one-eighty and hurt you.

Under-rated:
Forrester Warband- I got my ass handed to me when I fought the gauls for the first time, thanks to these guys.

Eastern Infantry/Mercenaries- I like using these as much as possible. They're a quick garrison, Calvary deterrent plus they're not so bad fighting with other infantry. Too bad they're little under powered and that damn "poor moral"
label.

Hastati and the Triarii- Just like they're way too under-powered.

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Originally Posted by Wardruid

:skull: Ouch. 3000? That's one hek of a Pyrrhic victory. Highest losses I've got in victory online is about 1800-2200

Over-rated:
Praetorian and Urban Cohorts -Like the guys who mentioned this earlier, they're just plain overkill. Plus they're so expensive to train and maintain.

The elephants and Scythed chariots- Sure they cause alot of havoc, but hit them with a few arrow and they'll make a one-eighty and hurt you.

Under-rated:
Forrester Warband- I got my ass handed to me when I fought the gauls for the first time, thanks to these guys.

Eastern Infantry/Mercenaries- I like using these as much as possible. They're a quick garrison, Calvary deterrent plus they're not so bad fighting with other infantry. Too bad they're little under powered and that damn "poor moral"
label.

Hastati and the Triarii- Just like they're way too under-powered.

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Comments on Overs:

Urbans and Praes are over-kill, but at least they're not those sodding gladiators. I virtually never build those.

Never had much luck with melee Chariots -- get stuck and take high casualties too readily, though the archer chariots can be useful in open terrains (Brits better than Eggies).

I rather like elephants, but I use them sparingly. They work well as bait, since the enemy "shot" will often target them a little longer than it should and open themselves up for a cavalry stomping. Elephants preceding the general at the key point can be a big help, but I rarely used them as anything but a reserve.

Auxilia: As replacements for triarii, you should feel cheated. Neither of them is more than average against cavalry, despite the bonus, but at least the triarii will continue fighting.

Comments on Unders:

Foresters are a tough opponent -- and would be tougher if the AI took true advantage of them.

Eastern Inf is not under-rated IMO. Mostly, they're just fodder and rarely hold much better than town watch. If you can pair them up with a general who adds 4 or more morale they become decent.

Eggy bowmen -- the 50% bonus in size is huge, allowing them to be a fabulous garrison force. Combine them with stone walls and you've got a tough nut to crack.

It isnt necessarily impossible to beat rome on multiplayer with 15k, but if you go anything over that it just gets harder. Yes the seleucids can beat Rome pretty regularly, Armenia, Pontus, and Eygpt can do well against them too.

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Originally Posted by Wardruid

Under-rated:
Forrester Warband- I got my ass handed to me when I fought the gauls for the first time, thanks to these guys.

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Ive never really had a go at a full-blown Gaul campaign, but I'd dearly love to try them soon just to use those Forresters.

Ya they are really the only saving grace for the Gauls in my opinion. They are fun to use in quick battles with lots of forests.

Over-rated/under-rated units :

Over-rated units: Horse archers (just try to fight in a city whith them....:embarassed: )

Under-rated units: Bastarnae, Peltas (combined, they can kill lots and lots of elite roman soldiers whith minimum losses...)

Over-rated factions : Gaul (poor starting position, poor units, a good meal for the romans), Greeks (no decent cavalry)

Under-rated factions : Numidia (everybody avoids playing them, but used correctly, a combination of numidian legionares + desertman + archers, cavalry and camels can kill any army) , Pontus (the strongest faction in my opinion).

People tend to crap on Eastern Infantry because they don't understand or ignore the dynamics of the Parthian army (in the game, at any rate). Eastern Infantry are an en masse unit for use against cavalry--particularly the chariots that may be too abundent for HA's to kill fast enough. They supplement Parthia's cavalry; they are not frontline infantry designed to fight the Romans or Seleucids.

Eastern Infantry rule

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Eastern Infantry rule

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Sometimes i was able to kill a enemy general whith 3 units of Eastern Infantry....

I`m curios about the relation between eastern infantry and hillmen... noth of them are crap infantry, but in large numbers...

If you actually do try to use them in serious melee against infantry, Easterners are your anchor, while Hillmen are used in conjuction to outflank. It's actually quite effective combined with HA's.

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Originally Posted by GrandInquisitor

People tend to crap on Eastern Infantry because they don't understand or ignore the dynamics of the Parthian army (in the game, at any rate). Eastern Infantry are an en masse unit for use against cavalry--particularly the chariots that may be too abundent for HA's to kill fast enough. They supplement Parthia's cavalry; they are not frontline infantry designed to fight the Romans or Seleucids.

Eastern Infantry rule

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Interesting. I never thought of using them as a mob unit against cavalry, but I can see how it would work. However, they don't rule: you can only use them against isolated cavalry units because their low armour and morale make them very vulnerable to flanking.

Updating my list here and trying to revive the thread.

Overated: Spartans, Melee Chariots, Archer Auxillia, Praetorian Cohorts, Generals Bodyguard, Armourned General's Bodyguard

Underated: Scruti, Slingers, Head Hurlers, Missle Chariots, Bronze Shields, Cataphract Camels, Falxmen, Peoni Infantry, Light Lancers, Royal Pikemen

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Originally Posted by {BH}Goalie

Updating my list here and trying to revive the thread.

Overated: Spartans, Melee Chariots, Archer Auxillia, Praetorian Cohorts, Generals Bodyguard, Armourned General's Bodyguard

Underated: Scruti, Slingers, Head Hurlers, Missle Chariots, Bronze Shields, Cataphract Camels, Falxmen, Peoni Infantry, Light Lancers, Royal Pikemen

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Well. I rather like AA, but your Overs list is pretty well in line with mine.

As to the unders, I have heard many good things about most of the listed units, save for Camel-cats. What's so good about them (Please note, that is a genuine question as I've never used 'em -- dumped my Parthia game early)?

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Originally Posted by {BH}Goalie

Updating my list here and trying to revive the thread.

Overated: Spartans, Melee Chariots, Archer Auxillia, Praetorian Cohorts, Generals Bodyguard, Armourned General's Bodyguard

Underated: Scruti, Slingers, Head Hurlers, Missle Chariots, Bronze Shields, Cataphract Camels, Falxmen, Peoni Infantry, Light Lancers, Royal Pikemen

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Don't forget Urban Cohorts. Also underated is auxilia(spearmen). Don't forget mercenary hoplites are underated.

I seriously think you guys are overrating Eatsern infantary, I picked off three hundred plus with three units of berserkers, and i upgraded the Eastern guys a lot just to give them some chance (Two silver chevrons and fully upgraded armour),

Overrated: Eastern infantary

Underated: Berserkers.

Keep the berserkers out of sight until your armies are fighting, then let slip the "Bers" of War

Gotta agree with all those that said chariots are overrated, all you have to do is time your countercharge right and almost any infantry unit can take them apart, although they still kill way too many of my horseman. :embarassed:

Along with berserkers I would have to say that Chosen Axeman are under rated, seriously any guys that can take apart a roman legion wearing only trousers have got to make that toga-wearing Senate very unhappy.

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Bugout

Along with berserkers I would have to say that Chosen Axeman are under rated, seriously any guys that can take apart a roman legion wearing only trousers have got to make that toga-wearing Senate very unhappy.:laugh4:

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....maybe its the honking great AXE that makes the togate folk unhappy -- its not what you wear, but the accessories that make the outfit.:2thumbsup:

Underrated: Roman Light Auxilia - dirt cheap and pretty dangerous at the same time.
Overrated: Camels.

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Originally Posted by Spart

I seriously think you guys are overrating Eatsern infantary, I picked off three hundred plus with three units of berserkers, and i upgraded the Eastern guys a lot just to give them some chance (Two silver chevrons and fully upgraded armour),

Overrated: Eastern infantary

Underated: Berserkers.

Keep the berserkers out of sight until your armies are fighting, then let slip the "Bers" of War

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This kind of battle doesn't prove Easterners are overrated. They have uses, and perform them well, but your simulation doesn't show one of them. It shows one of their limitations, albeit in an extreme way. Berserkers are obscenely strong, possibly the game's most formidable melee unit; Eastern Infantry, as I've said, are not a frontline unit against fresh heavy infantry and especially elite units, even upgraded to the max (I'm partial to them, I overpraise them for kicks, but I do recognize their limitations.)

A unit of Berserkers on Medium (don't care about higher difficulties with those boni) can rout a unit of Armoured Elephants. Berserkers can also take out Urbans and Spartans if handled right; and a unit of either of them is obviously a match for upgraded Easterners. It's all in handling and picking what moments Easterners are good for, the same as with most other units.

Yes that isnt really a fair comparison. Easterns by sheer numbers can be very effective against cavalry. Also AA compare very badly in value with Roman archers. AA only have 8 missle attack for 440 denari, granted they do have a longer range. Regular archers have 7 missle and are only 190 denari, you can cheaply upgrade you Roman Archers and be better than AA and spend less money. Auxilia arent underated in my opinion. Although cheaper that triari, triari are a much better value. To answer your question, Cata Camels are very effective agianst cavalry, inculding cataphracts which can be a tough job for all other cavalry, although I rarely if ever use them in 1 vs 1 games, but in team games Parthia can be quite good.