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Open wide! Or else we have to go in the other way. :whip:
I understand the everyone's definitions of liberal and conservative are a bit different depending on whethere you are American, European, or Martian. But try and answer to the closest that you identify with, please.
I am not adding Gah because I don't want Gah. No ffesne on Gah, but just pick something close to what you identify with. I am aware that this is not perfect.
I'm so sick of this political hackery.
Take your blood sport elsewhere. :rtwno:
So if I was to say that economically I'm right of centre, but socially left of centre, which one should I click?
Sorry old bean, it's a tad simplistic.
I understand IA, put it this way: Pick the one you consider more important, but not in an extremist sort of consideration. Does that makes sense? I know its difficult to be exact. Politics is a spectrum of colors, not black & white. :bow:
Where is the center and gah option ??
I went ahead and defined myself as liberal, but I only did so on the proviso that I want it known that I try to keep an open mind. I agree with others here that there should be other categories. I would suggest Independant, Liberal Conservative, and Conservative Liberal, the last two used to imply the major dominate trait first. I would define myself as a Liberal Conservative- liberal in my thinking, but conservative in my ethics and approach to life.
@ Dear Eclectic, I should like to say "You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" (Arron Tippin, country music singer).
I´ve said this here a million times:
European Spectrum -> Moderate
American Spectrum -> Commie-Pinko-Liberal-Freedom Hater
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Really Ronin, don't be afraid, spit it out man and tell it like it is! :2thumbsup:
I hate %$%^$ freedom!
How many times do we have to go through this, eh?
It's almost painful to watch this for years now at the .org... It's the neverending battle for who's party is more awesome and who's party sucks.
Gah!
You know I hate free speech as much as I hate freedom...
I feel bad for poor people, and advocate charity for them...
I don't view organized religion negatively and condone any war though I strictly am against any civilian deaths and collateral damage...
I write with my right hand, but catch and hold hockey sticks left-handed...
How can I answer this?!? :furious3:
My political party: UDF. It is one of those small parties in the centre-right, heirs to the European liberal tradition, like the Liberal Democrats in the UK or the FDP in Germany.
In the European parliament, the UDF is a member of theEuropean Democratic Party
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The EDP has a loose alliance with the American Democratic party:Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
For all practical puposes, I guess you could count me as a Democrat in the US sense.
What the heck is your deal, ambiguous one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
Nobody said "who is better". I'm just curious what the climate is these days. Heck, just look at SFTS- back to the left this time around. People change their minds, and we've seen some members posting back here who didn't used to.
Nobody is enaged in blood sport. It's just a very simple statement of political tendency, that's all. Tendency, not "Oh you chose left?!?!?1 YOU MUST BE DETroyeded you traitorous SWINE!!!111" or "You picked right?!?!? U R a FACSIST WARMINGER!!1
sheesh. :laugh4: It's all in fun. If it wasn't fun, nobody would post in the backroom. (Shhh, don't tell anyone, but in RL, I'll still drink with you even if you want to social health care. ~:eek: And what's more, my best man was a LESBIAN. :fainting: ) :2thumbsup: :laugh4:
GAH!
Vote 1 GAH!
:gah2:
B.
GAH!
:gah2:
BigHairyDeal
Thank you for expressing yourself rather than altering the poll, good sir. :bow:
there is no option for Domesticated Housecats?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechnoMage of Shadows
^funny guy^Quote:
Originally Posted by TechnoMage of Shadows
hmm - thats a Technomage i'm making fun of...
(looks around nervously, can't see any dragons...continues with post)
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
B.
I personally consider myself slightly left leaning, though I'm often being told the opposite. Meh. Perhaps I'm just doing a good job at being centrist, what with most of my friends being communist hippy-scumbags.
Got my brand spanking new Labour party card today! Wooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some here would say that makes me a fascist, though I still believe it makes me a warm lovely liberal Socialist.
.
:gah2:
.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
Where are the other options? Last time I checked the world was in 3-D and color, not 2-D and black and white. I suppose if one insists on viewing the world from a pigeon hole and putting everyone else into pigeon holes as well, then it's not really a surprise that the result is the black and white colors of pigeon crap. :grin:
This poll needs a Gah option. :wink:
Do you even bother to read the first post? I agree with you 100%. This is exactly what I already said in this thread, but for your "colorful"(Stupid pun intended) illustrative eloquence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aenlic
Identity politics ....Gah
:juggle2:
I did read it. And I responded based on your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
What if neither of the choices is close, or they're equally far apart?
Which of the following is the closest in the alphabet to the letter B?
A or C?
Choose only one.
Which of the following smells more like a rose?
Green or Blue?
Have you ever been caught engaging in self-abuse in the closet?
Yes or no. And you may not answer anything except yes or no.
Hmm. It seems that everyone who refused to vote but yet posted in this trhead also usually posts leftist views.....
Lets see:
Tribesman? Check.
Aenlic? Check.
Mouz? He tends to stay out of most of this. If anyone gets a Gah, it's him.
Barocca? Not back here enough. And his special red name gives him the power to destory us all, so he can pretty much say anything he wants to and get away scot-free.
BigHairyDeal? Not a clue, since he isn't a regular backroomer. (Sorry about the Misunderstanding. I was just kidding about the puppet comment)
Techno Mage of Shadows You too. (Though I still think you are probably a vote for the left. ~D)
Reenk Roink? I think he gets two votes. Check and check.
Byzantine Prince. Check.
That's five extra votes for the left since Reenk Roink counts as two. It seems that the left is whooping that arse these days. Could this be indicative of broader political change throughout the globe....?
Just go ahead and add Navaros there while you're at it, since you know us "liberals and leftists" better than we do... :rolleyes2:
For Gah! :2thumbsup:
Yes, of course, you're absolutely correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
My staunch support for the 2nd Amendment makes me a leftist. I guess that makes you a leftist too, yes? Better make another poll so you can change your vote. :wink:
Divinus Arma...err...Eclectic Exposed!
An exhaustively researched report by Reenk Roink...
Divinus Arma is a 'leftist' plain and simple. Anyone who has even had a cursory glance at his posts will see this. So let us examine the copious posts which make our case against Divinus Arma.
Exhibit One: Divinus Arma recently changed his name to Eclectic. I mean, what the hell is that!? Eclectic just sounds so..."rainbowy". By the way, look at the definition of Eclectic:
Obviously leftist...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary
Exhibit Two: Divinus Arma has unorthodox views on God and dislikes organized religion (citation will be available soon). Obviously a major indicator of leftism...
Exhibit Three: Divinus Arma frequently posts on the inevitable domination of socialism and muses if the United States should breakup... Can you say 'pinko'? Sure, he may attempt to put a veneer of Conservativism in his posts, reminding people that "he is an ardent Conservative", but who believes that?
Exhibit Four: Divinus Arma usually is very emotional and passionate in his posts. This is obviously a key sign of 'lefacism'...
Exhibit Five: Divinus Arma likes 'Gah'. It is clear that "Gah is for the retarded" and that many true conservatives consider it "inane", "cacophonous", etc...
*this is a w.i.p*
Well Its really rather simple - since I am always right in my politics I voted right........:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Now does that imply that I am right or that I am wrong..........:sweatdrop:
Oh this is just too funny. Roink, if you're gonna expose my leftism, why not go the full monty and make it a thread. ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
You clearly have your facts togther on this one. But it's jilarious either way. :2thumbsup:
Edit: For teh record on the rainbowy name, I thought Eclectic was better for the Org, than Masacreallleftistbabiesinthewomb. Luckily, that was already being successfully accomplished, so no need to waste a name on it. So, the second name I considered was HeresToUsamaIHatetheUS, but that would be a dead give away that I was a liberal, so that wouldn't work out. Lastly I considered Mountie_Love, but well...you know.
Drats. Foiled again.
Gonna go with Gah on this one, which doubtless lumps me in with lefties such as Navaros. I really don't see things as left-right; I'm an issue-by-issue kind of lemur.
All right Divinus Arma, now that my little fun is over, [it was a joke by the way, don't be offended (I say this because people actually get offended when you call them a Conservative or Liberal)], I would like you to list the reasons why I and the other people you listed are liberals.
I mean, I know that I have not accumulated the four minimum mandatory warning points for a conservative yet, but... :tongue3:
I get it. You don't like the new name. Well then you must be a conservative, since change is so hard for you. My mistake. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
And I was not offended at all. I thought it was funny, and I hoped you would continue. :2thumbsup:
Far too simplistic IMO.
Anyone that can say that they are "right wing" or "left wing" needs to have a look at themselves to see if they are thinking about any issues or just going along on autopilot.
~:smoking:
:gah:
Where's Gah?!!! :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:
I don't think I qualify as either left or right, as I like both freedom of choice and equal chance/justice equally much, and they aren't mutually exclusive. Left and right labels is to simplify politics and hurt it's diversity, generalizing and sorting people into stereotypic groups, and sometimes forcing politicans forced into either of the groups to make PC statements which aren't a natural result of their real opinions, but only a result of the stereotypes they have been assigned to. The real danger is when people start thinking they belong to either the left or the right wing, rather than common sense (which is a combination of justice/equal chance and freedom of choice).
It's funny that people who lean a bit right will have no problem saying so, but anyone who feels they do not lean right will refuse to acknowledge that they lean left. Instead they call themselves "centrists", "independants", or "moderates".
From this one could conclude that people who consider themselves as right-leaning prefer a simple black/white view on the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
it´s funny that your political spectrum is so far offset to the right that you perceive centrist ideas as left wing ideas....
it could be eithe one really....
and trust me....I know people that REALLY are leftists......one day I must put you in a room with one of them just to see what happens.....I just want to be far away to excape the explosion that will occur when those 2 opposite forces come into contact :laugh4:
if leftist and rightist would be defined exactly, AND those definitions would be such that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
(L = the set of all ideologies x such that x is a leftist ideology, R = the set of all ideologies x such that x is a rightist ideology)
- L U R = the set of all existing ideologies
- L ∩ R = ø
...then I believe more people would actually be able to determine whether they're left or right. As it is now, it's very difficult to see which block you would belong in, especially also since the division assumes that freedom and justice are mutually exclusive while in fact they're not. Both conservative and socialistic ideologies acknowledge both justice and freedom as important concepts, but choose different ways of achieving them both. However, the implementations of the ideologies, and the division left-right, assumes that to get freedom you must have injustice and oppression, and to have justice people would be enslaved. Neither is true. Societies with more freedom often have more justice, societies with more justice often have more freedom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Since there are only 2 options, I voted left, because in debates I usually find myself arguing against conservatives.
While the caution is good advice, I don't think we should be surprised that all the views of a particular person fall into the right or left category. I think there are fundamental differences in political, social, and spiritual thought that guide us to the way we behave, debate, and vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
I've never been afraid of being categorized or categorizing myself.
Since sociopolitical views are often related to one another, it's not surprising that certain people seem to always agree, and that those agreements are based on fundamental similarities. There's a continuity between these deep beliefs and their political manifestations.
In my case, I have noticed that there are some fourmers that I have rarely, if ever, disagreed with on sociopolitical issues. The views that we have in common fall under that "left" heading in political textbooks.
I have a problem with people who espouse Christian beliefs, but supported the Iraq invasion. To me, there's something hypocritical in this. I have to respect Navaros, who followed his strong, sometimes unpopular, religious beliefs toward (if I'm not mistaken) opposition to the war. To me, this shows a continuity of conscience.
I do not at all believe that the world is black and whilte, politically speaking.
You would all obviously find me right wing. But I advocate the legalization of marijuana. I am against the moral coruption of our culture, but yet I do not think it is the government's job to legislate what is "moral". I have my colorful views like any other.
As I said over and over, I am just curious at to the consolidated leanings of an individual.
Do you want a political rubric? Here. I'll make one even though I am sure everyone will also attack it as biased or black and white too.
Consider the following issues:
Constitutional Interpretation-
-2: Should be interpreted to accommodate any relevant potential possibility
-1: Should be interpreted broadly
1: Should be interpreted as strictly to literal as possible
2: Should be interpreted literally
Public vs. Private ownership-
-2: Economy should be centrally planned
-1: Economy should be free-market, but most industries should be public owned
1: Economy should be free-market, but utilities and infrastructure should be public owned
2: Economy should be free-market, only national security and conduct of governance should be public owned
Property Rights-
-2: Land is for public use only, and no single person should “own” land
-1: Land is owned by an individual, but it may be acquired against the owner’s will by another individual who can generate greater tax revenue for the state.
1: Land is owned by the individual, and should only be otherwise compelled for transfer for public use for infrastructure, such as roads.
2: No person should be compelled to sell the land he owns under any circumstance.
Social Change-
-2: The laws should be changed to meet the permissiveness of the current popular culture.
2: The culture should conform to the restrictions of the law.
The Purpose of Government-
-2: The purpose of government is to care for the people
2: The purpose of government is to empower people to care for themselves
Distribution of Power-
-2: Power should be consolidated into as few hands as is possible.
2: Power distributed is power accountable
Now assign a level of importance to each of your decisions, 1-4. For each answer, multiply the score of your selection by the level of importance you assigned it. Now add up your scores. Maximum score is 48. Minimum Score is -48. 1 to 48 is right leaning. 0 to -48 is left leaning.
That is slanted, I say. 49 points to be a lefty, while there are only 48 points to be a righty ... you people really are an elitist bunch aren't you? :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
Ok i got 1 point on your little test there DA.So now i should call myself righty.Ever heard of the middle road?On some issues i lean left on some issues right. :coffeenews:
Why are people so threatened by this? I'm not asking you to declare you r allegaince tochristian conservative Bush froeign policy, nor am I asking you to declare yourself a socialist liberal nut.
Which way do you lean. Lean. Just a bit. Consolidate your views, consioer what matters most, and guess which side of the political spectrum you may slightly, skew towards.
Sheesh. You guys are politophobic.
.
Nice description! :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
.
Using your test I would probably score as right leaning (15). Most of the questions are false dilemmas though, and that is my entire problem with trying to group the political spectrum in two dimensions. In the ideal system, no other person has any power over either me or any other one. Left and Right are false categories, and I cannot see why people feel the need to group beliefs as being either right or left, or somehow belonging between them in some sort of two dimensional spectrum. I don't care at all about the label's name as long as it is a consistent grouping, because it does not determine my belief.
In Aus you vote for all the parties at once or you can vote as per the party line. You vote in order of which one you want. So you can quite easily call yourself a moderate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Hence this poll is not able to reflect the wider range of choices available.
If I had voted moderate, no option here. If I had voted a donkey vote, it would be Gah!. No option here. etc
I just noticed SFTS voted left. We need to re evaluate our theories on SFTS' prolonged absensce, it appears some evil has come over him and led him to the dark side.
Religious right wing- No abortion, divoirce only if neccesary, member of old Church,. On the other hand, I am liberal because I am for nation wide health care, a large government with everyone playing a part and a tad of distribution of wealth (with tiers of employment), I also am a supporter of unions.
Yet in another topic you describe me as a nationalist terrorist sympaphiser Divinus , wouldn't that be very right wing .Quote:
Tribesman? Check.
It's simple and it works. In your country, are you considered right or left? Who did you vote for? ect. It's easy.
Pape has dealt with that very well , not all countries have the same politics as yours GC , When you have the republican party , the republican party , the republican party , the republican party and the republican party ...which ones are the right wing ones ? and when you add the socialist party , the socialist party , the socialist party , the socialist party and the socialist party , which ones are left wing ones ?
Don't agree with everything the right does, but I practically disagree with everything of the left. Leftist politics is just the concience of rich kids.
Too simplistic.
GAH!
Ok then, now that there's a definition:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
Constitutional Interpretation:- 2, but that also requires the constitution to be made by exact definitions and written so there aren't any doubts whatsoever of what is meant, and so that all the possible practical consequences (in all possible hypothetical scenarios that could occur) of how it's written are known.
Public vs. Private ownership: economy should allow an as free market as possible, but with laws favoring ethical and environmental friendly corporations in a fair and predictable way decided by exactly defined laws. For the safety of citizens, the state must provide health care and infrastructure (it's inconvenient to buy tickets from 5 companies to travel a short distance because there are different owners along different parts of the route). However for the safety of citizens, privately owned high-quality, high-price sectors of infrastructure and medicine may also exist - for instance taxis and specialist plastic surgeons etc. I suppose that view would classify as no. 1, but it shares concepts from 2 and -2 as well.
Property Rights: 2, but that also requires that population growth is controlled. With too large populations, individuals owning land is impossible, because skyscrapers etc. are needed to cover the need for places to live. Many say that there's plenty of room in deserts and other not yet populated areas, but it's often difficult to provide people with water if cities are built in deserts, and all land that isn't deserts is already needed for producing food to feed the overpopulated earth. So while 2 is desireable, it's an utopia or something that can only be given to a small elite of some 5% at this time.
Social Change: I don't really understand what you mean with this question, please give an example case to judge from. Preferably give examples of the reasons for both views too, so I understand exactly what the question is about.
The Purpose of Government: -2 and 2, obviously. The government must adapt it's decisions to what the people want, i.e. -2, and put their desires above their own greed. If the people has self-destructive desires it's the duty of the government to explain and persuade the people not to follow such a track, but they may not force decisions upon the people. Thus the government has a duty to make sure the education is good enough to teach all people enough to understand the environmental problems and diplomacy and warfare throughout history, so they can use that knowledge properly when voting. On the other hand the government mustn't make the decisions for people, so at the same time no. 2 must be achieved. There is one case when the government must put -2 over 2, and that is when the population is uneducated. For instance if the population wants to lie down and smoke pot and don't work to gain knowledge enough to understand the environmental problems and the political problems of the world and their own country, they become a dangerous brainless mob and don't deserve any freedom (and can't and won't defend their freedom anyway by the way, except by occasionally murdering their leaders as no larger-scale military action for freedom can be launched).
Distribution of Power: I assume no. 2 is closest to my view. Power should not exist at all - power is the ability to control the actions of another human being. All people should control their own actions! Leadership and organization may exist, and a man may give a pledge to stay under the leadership of an organizer for a given amount of time to facilitate solving of organizational problems, but no person should ever be forced under any leadership or forced to make a pledge to stay under it.
The importance of all factors is of course 4 (except for the question I didn't understand which I give 0 to at this time) - these are some of the most central political questions. My sum becomes 20, but I would never vote for someone like Bush or the Republicans.
I'm a righty by your test Eclectic :dizzy2: :laugh4: (+7)
Doesn't feel entirely accurate on some issues...
But as mentioned here before, a poll with right, left and moderate would fix most complains. The US scale is quite different from many other countries, for example the traditionally most right-wing party (of the big ones) in Sweden is closer to the Democrats than the Republicans, and a in country without a proper left (only consisting of radicals) people will not identify themself with the left if they're moderates, and will be slightly insulted by being claimed being on the left.
That libertarians in average counts in the middle is even one more example (and is known as liberals outside the US).
Just because a lot of threads ends up as the US right vs the rest of the world, doesn't mean that the rest of the world identify themself to the left.
/
(that's me leaning to the right)
I think that's because conservatism is generally keeping things the same, whilst those who are not conservative want SOMETHING to change, but those who do want changes, don't all want the same changes. From a conservative viewpoint they're all non-conservative, therefore lumped together, despite many differences between their viewpoints. Some people you may group as "leftists" can be further from each other than some are from the "right".Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
It's funny that people who lean a bit right will have no problem saying so, but anyone who feels they do not lean right will refuse to acknowledge that they lean left. Instead they call themselves "centrists", "independants", or "moderates".
IMHO the world situation is such that left/right dichotomy no longer serves. You may as well ask "whig or tory", or "plebeian or patrician".
So, to answer your question concisely: a libertarian, decentralist, social-justice minded, largely-free market, Green who has no problems with homosexuality (so long as I don't have to join in) or multi-ethnic society (I find most Muslims far more reasonable than many professed Xtians), who believes people should deserve what they get, and get what they deserve. I don't like abortion, but won't deny it people. I don't like fertility treatment and would deny it if I could. I believe in the rule of law, but that law must serve society and not vice-versa. The role of government is to do what individuals or other organisations can't, won't, or shouldn't do, but it should be as close to the ground as possible. I believe ALL government subsidies should be scrapped, otherwise free trade is a lie, and a cartel for the rich world. I believe recreational drugs should be treated as a medical not a moral issue. I don't believe violence is the solution, whether it's suicide bombs or 'smart' bombs. The biggest issue today is environmental degradation, not the way the economy works, and that is not a left/right issue. Global capitalism is an environmental catastrophe, but Soviet-style planned economies were much worse. But I'm also an elitist; people should pass some sort of intelligence test before being allowed to vote / drive / breed. Stupidity and the herd-mentality are the worst facets of human nature.
So, left or right? GAH!
As a canadian i'm leaning on right, but for someone of the US, i'm a lefties.
BTW i want to vote Gah .......
gah!
What you only got two parties in your country or what?
The number of parties your country has doesn’t matter, the question is “how do you identify yourself? Left or right.”
It is interesting to see how even the voting has been considering the amount of younger patrons the .org has.
I also require a Gah, because I find I am a card-carrying red in love with the monarchy...
Well, that is upsetting. I thought Malcolm might be the only Scottish MonarchistQuote:
Originally Posted by Masy
here.
Wow.. its usually 60-75% leftist.
I am HUMANIST!!
:no: A poll without Gah violates the Human Rights and does not make any sense.:furious3:
:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
It seems the right side is more fun... alas.
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
I think a lot of moderates are abstaining. Simple enough, really. And since all moderates are "leftist liberals" according to the current regime, I suppose we would count for the left of the poll. I'm keeping myself pure for Gah.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Right
And not this, Cameron, im everybodys friend right.
I require a 'screw politics' option.
!st Commandment of politics: see my sig.
I feel special. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic
Well you're not. Get in your hole pigeon!Quote:
Originally Posted by evil_maniac from mars
I have found an ideal canidate for our Improbability Field testing...:book:Quote:
Originally Posted by whyidie