Are You Rapture-Ready?

Okay, so maybe you've got your rapture insurance and your rapture e-mails set to go. But are you really rapture-ready? The Lemur found a wonderful place to discuss the issues with like-minded patrons -- the Rapture Ready Message Board.

I think we've all got something to learn about preparation for the rapture. They do have some ground rules, though:

Why don't you allow date setting and pin-the-tail-on-the-AC threads?

The quick answer is that we are concerned about the witness of the site, and these two activities we feel are detrimental to that.

Date setting is seen by some as a positive thing: it gives people something to look forward to, and if it turns out to be untrue (as EVERY prediction to date has), then they just scrap the prediction and look for the next one. To others, it is a real detriment. It can be a huge letdown and can challenge a person's faith to see "iron clad" scriptural "proof" about a date, and then to watch it come and go with no activity. We had a horrible experience with this in September of 2000 and made the decision at that time to err on the side of caution and disallow that practice. While we don't fault people for being energized by this practice, we just ask that they recognize that it can do more harm than good and thay they accept the fact that these discussions are not welcome here!

Pin-the-tail-on-the-antichrist (PTTOTA) is another popular game that folks like to speculate about. It is our position that rather than entertaining onesself by spinning the wheel to see which public figure can be named satan incarnate, that we should be praying for these people, that they find salvation and thus take themselves out of the running. To clarify further, this is a pre-trib board, which means that it is our scriptural interpretation that the church will not be here when the AC is revealed.

Yeah, that's all very well Lemur, but what I really need here is a guide to what to pack. :inquisitive:

I mean, I'm sure not getting to go first class, but when my Rapture email comes through, how long do I get to pack stuff? Should I have a ready-bag in the closet? Are thongs allowed in heaven? ~:confused:

(And don't get me started on what the well-dressed Rapture abductee should be seen wearing...Where's GQ magazine's rules on that?) ~:cool:


:laugh4: :laugh4:

Lemur, I thought you and your hordes of fellow lemurs were staying behind to take over? :army: :army: :army: :army: :army: :army: :army: :army: :army: :whip:

Vladimir, are you playing a forbidden game of Pin the Tail on the Anti-Christ?

I think the end is near and the rapture will be in the next 50 years....I am not joking.

I once had a rupture and had to take six weeks off work.

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Originally Posted by ceasar010

I think the end is near and the rapture will be in the next 50 years....I am not joking.

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But you're funny none the less :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ceasar010

I think the end is near and the rapture will be in the next 50 years....I am not joking.

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Well, do you mean within the next fifty years, or in exactly fifty years? World of difference, pun intended.

Fifty years is a long way out. Would you bother to get the rapture insurance, or sign up for the rapture letters? Or can you sort of let it slide, knowing you've got half a century to get your exit in order?

I'll have the last laugh:2thumbsup:

Can't wait for all these self-righteous blowhards and killjoys to be taken from us. The world will be a much better place. It's going to be one hell of a 7 year party, that's for sure! :2thumbsup:

Rapture is in the redneck dictionary.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The door was fallin off my car, so I just rapture up in some duct tape and she was good to go.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Well, do you mean within the next fifty years, or in exactly fifty years? World of difference, pun intended.

Fifty years is a long way out. Would you bother to get the rapture insurance, or sign up for the rapture letters? Or can you sort of let it slide, knowing you've got half a century to get your exit in order?

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Within 50 years .


It could happen sooner though; All the technology you'd need to carry out the end of the world as the bible predicted is there already.


IE mark of the beast would be an RFID chip.(they are planning to make them in credit cards.....spooky isn't it)

PTTOTA? I've got to go with Barack Obama.:laugh4:

Hey, I did one of they searches with an internet, and I'll tell you what's spooky - these here Raptures:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...rae/raptor.jpg

:eeeek: And you can get insurance against these critters?

Holy cow, that message board has 10k+ members, with almost 1300 visiting a day, and almost 2400 posts a day.

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Date setting is seen by some as a positive thing: it gives people something to look forward to, and if it turns out to be untrue (as EVERY prediction to date has

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What? I thought that one date back in 1980 somethin' had something happen.

I better get some robot insurance too...just in case.

Crazed Rabbit

I've never understood those Bumper stickers that read:

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Warning! In case of Rapture, this vehicle will become driverless!

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To me, that's the height of hubris, and more importantly, specifically warned about and forbidden by Christ, St. Paul and all the other early Church writers. But what did they know...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I've never understood those Bumper stickers that read:



To me, that's the height of hubris, and more importantly, specifically warned about and forbidden by Christ, St. Paul and all the other early Church writers. But what did they know...

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Well, SCOTUS has all too often decided that the FF clearly had no clue about that silly document they drafted in Philadelphia one hot summmer. Surely its not all that surprising that some current pargons of their churches are willing to think Saul never quite got it right after that trouble en route to Damascus -- I mean he had some good ideas and a great travel itinerary, but its not like he understands modern Christianity after all.....


:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by article

It brings up an important issue that many Christian-Americans are blithely ignoring. According to evangelical scholars, the end times are fast approaching, even faster than they were fifty years ago, and that means that a roadway filled with hundreds of driverless cars careening across lanes of traffic at 70 miles per hour could soon be a very bloody [and costly] reality.

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Hmm. Time is speeding up. The rapture is approaching faster than it was 50 years ago. I wonder if it will be appraoching even faster in another 50 years.


OH NO!!! LOOK OUT ITS THE RAPTURE!!!!!!

https://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1778/rapture2aq0.jpg


Seriously. Is it just me, or is Christinaity and Islam as ridiculous as the loons who followed Marshal Applewhite with their souls to the UFO hiding behind the moon?

https://img101.imageshack.us/img101/...teakadolv6.jpg

Any organized religion, by itself, is pretty darn absurd. You should be skeptical anytime someone demands that you believe in what somebody else wrote just because the writing says you should. No matter what the level of fluff surrounding the writing.

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Originally Posted by Eclectic

Any organized religion, by itself, is pretty darn absurd. You should be skeptical anytime someone demands that you believe in what somebody else wrote just because the writing says you should. No matter what the level of fluff surrounding the writing.

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Something else on which we are in complete agreement; although I'd probably have left off the "organized" part. :grin:

The revealed religions (those in which someone comes down from the mountain or goes up the mountain or gets a bit wet or has a dream or a vision and then shows up one day and announces that the supreme whatever has revealed all to him or her or them) start out ideological and always end up dogmatic. I'd be the guy in the back yelling out, "Hey, Are you sure it isn't just a bit of gas caused by something you ate?" when the word comes down from on high via the standard issue prophet/wise man/saint/leader/alien/whatever. I see very little difference between Moses or Mohammed or Jesus or Joseph Smith, Jr or Marshall Applewhite or Buddha or Zoroaster or the French guy who leads the Raelians. :wink:

People who are against "organized" religion really puzzel me. Are you for disorganized religion? If so, what the hell is that? Really, what isn't organized at some level?

Thus my saying that I would not have included the word organized when using the same statement as Eclectic did. :wink:

I don't have a problem with "religion" per say, although I find the term antiquated. I should say I don't have a problem with existential perspective, since every person has some kind of existential perspective but not everyone would call it a religion. Atheism, for example, is an existential perspective of evolution and existence lacking a self-aware God. It certainly isn't a "religion", but it is the definitive equal to religion in terms of outlook.

So, I guess "religion" was the wrong word, not "organized".

Organized existential perspective is somewhat unnerving to me for its arrogance. Certainty is for God and fools.

Personally I'm always concerned when people (Especially Europeans, Especially Scandinavians *wow*) rally against religion. Belief in the divine is a fundamental part of human existence and provides a necessary foundation for our lives. That is why I just shake my head at all those who use their emotions to determine right from wrong; they make judgments based on whatever’s fashionable. Anyone interested in bell-bottom morality? If you compare the major religions you'll find, like in the languages we speak, many similarities. The problem arises when they become dogmatic and repressive.

Of course, it's always fun to knock down the self-righteous a notch or two. From my time in Tennessee I remember Christianity was something like a competitive sport. Quite literally the holier than thou attitude was present in many of the locals. Probably just a cultural quirk though. Anyone here the joke about the Southern Baptists in heaven?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Personally I'm always concerned when people (Especially Europeans, Especially Scandinavians *wow*) rally against religion. Belief in the divine is a fundamental part of human existence and provides a necessary foundation for our lives. That is why I just shake my head at all those who use their emotions to determine right from wrong; they make judgments based on whatever’s fashionable. Anyone interested in bell-bottom morality? If you compare the major religions you'll find, like in the languages we speak, many similarities. The problem arises when they become dogmatic and repressive.

Of course, it's always fun to knock down the self-righteous a notch or two. From my time in Tennessee I remember Christianity was something like a competitive sport. Quite literally the holier than thou attitude was present in many of the locals. Probably just a cultural quirk though. Anyone here the joke about the Southern Baptists in heaven?

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I agree completely. Their is nothing worng with holding a viewpoint or sharing it with others. However, when your viewpoint becomes another's burden, we have problems. Sadly, Christinaity and Islam have become a burden on many.

So the same people who tell everyone in other threads that Muslims can not all be judged by the actions of a few and making long posts about how one should not generalize, come here and make fun of all Chrisitans...

Thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Husar

So the same people who tell everyone in other threads that Muslims can not all be judged by the actions of a few and making long posts about how one should not generalize, come here and make fun of all Chrisitans...

Thank you very much.

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Nobody is doing this. You must be misunderstanding what is going on.


Have a sense of humor. I, personally, am an equal opportunity offender. Islam and Christianity share the same lack of rational thought as any other cult in my opinion. This is my opinion and I am not forcing anybody else to believe it by the point of an AK-47 or over threats of flaming eternal damnation.

I find it especially ironic how both Christianty and Islam teach tolerance, humility, and patience. Yet these are some of the most intolerant, arrogant, and impatient folks to walk the earth. Mind you, this does not apply to all and there are certainly heathen infidels who are just as nasty. But if the shoe fits...

the rapture wont be in this century. or millenium.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Anyone here the joke about the Southern Baptists in heaven?

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I wonder if that's similar to the one we have about Presbyterians?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

St Peter is showing a group of new arrivals the wonders of heaven. After a while, they approach a walled garden, and St Peter sternly warns everyone to be very quiet as they walk past.

Once they're a safe distance away, he explains: 'That's the Presbyterians - they think they're the only ones here."

:wink:

:laugh4: That's it!

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Personally I'm always concerned when people (Especially Europeans, Especially Scandinavians *wow*) rally against religion.

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Huh? The rally against religion here is pretty much dead nowadays. But by some reason is anything that happens on this front in Sweden world news...
(Well, can you find anything outside a priest that had a speech in invited media that among other things mention that gays is a cancer in society and that some people complained that the schools breaking-up were always done in churches were they was living, decided (rightly so) to be a communal issue, not even big news in Sweden).

Devout christians that mention God all the time is considered quite odd though and a Bush speech when he's starting mentioning God wouldn't recvive much support. But none cares if you goes to church every day.

So to summarise: Christianity got a much more secularised position in Sweden, the only places were it doesn't have it, is remnants of when the state and church were merged. But the rallies against Christianity is from what I've seen, much worse in the US. Here people simply don't care, in average.

Personally I found it near impossible for a Scandinavian to say anything positive about Christianity. I can somewhat understand the European animosity towards Christianity given their history and the fact that many of the more religious may have emigrated. Mostly I'm curious to see if another religion will fill in this "moral vacuum" as I call it.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Huh? The rally against religion here is pretty much dead nowadays. But by some reason is anything that happens on this front in Sweden world news...
(Well, can you find anything outside a priest that had a speech in invited media that among other things mention that gays is a cancer in society and that some people complained that the schools breaking-up were always done in churches were they was living, decided (rightly so) to be a communal issue, not even big news in Sweden).

Devout christians that mention God all the time is considered quite odd though and a Bush speech when he's starting mentioning God wouldn't recvive much support. But none cares if you goes to church every day.

So to summarise: Christianity got a much more secularised position in Sweden, the only places were it doesn't have it, is remnants of when the state and church were merged. But the rallies against Christianity is from what I've seen, much worse in the US. Here people simply don't care, in average.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Personally I found it near impossible for a Scandinavian to say anything positive about Christianity. I can somewhat understand the European animosity towards Christianity given their history and the fact that many of the more religious may have emigrated. Mostly I'm curious to see if another religion will fill in this "moral vacuum" as I call it.

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Well... what's positive with Christianity?
Give me a good answer that came up within 10 seconds.


I mean we got a guy that had some good ideas and some people that follows it well and has done well for the world.

Then we had some organisation positives in the past and we got the positive side-effects of Religion, like:
Feelings to belong into a group and have someone to speak to.
Thoughts of afterlife and the consequent easierness (that's a word?) to treat the death of people that stand close to you or your own death.
And that those nasty pricks that still succeeds in thier life will get punished anyway. :laugh4:


And "spiritual vacuum" fits better than "moral vacuum" BTW.

well we believe if you lived a good life and die. you go to heaven. which i think is postive.

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Originally Posted by The Spartan

well we believe if you lived a good life and die. you go to heaven. which i think is postive.

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And that is speciffic to Christianity how? :inquisitive:

Elysian fields
Valhalla
Nirvana
Brahma

etc, etc.

I did cover it in my "Religion" section.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Well... what's positive with Christianity?
Give me a good answer that came up within 10 seconds.


I mean we got a guy that had some good ideas and some people that follows it well and has done well for the world.

Then we had some organisation positives in the past and we got the positive side-effects of Religion, like:
Feelings to belong into a group and have someone to speak to.
Thoughts of afterlife and the consequent easierness (that's a word?) to treat the death of people that stand close to you or your own death.
And that those nasty pricks that still succeeds in thier life will get punished anyway. :laugh4:


And "spiritual vacuum" fits better than "moral vacuum" BTW.

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Well a couple things:

First, your 10 second rule. If it takes you 10 seconds to determine your beliefs than there's something wrong with the way you process information. If you're asking what's positive about a solid moral foundation that stresses love and tolerance, I guess you got me there [sic]. Maybe your Christians adhere to the pillage and burn tradition of your ancestors but that's not my experience. Really, what were your ancestors like before Christianity?

Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans. If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

To deny religion is to deny a part of yourself. Without it what do you rely on, your baser instincts, reason alone? Many religions share many fundamentals for a simple reason, people need to believe. The actions they take as a part of that belief are a different story.

One of the reasons why people oppose religion in the US is that they hate feeling that they may be doing something wrong (I expect that is fairly universal). As a result they lash out against religious symbols and beliefs where ever they see them. One of the reasons I support religion is because of the actions that those people take against it. It's also fun to discuss the differences between religions and ponder their historical significance. You'll also find that, on average, those who are even mildly religious tend to be happier than those who aren't at all.

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Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans. If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

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Because archeologists are such great experts about cognitive ability...
So, you basically say that atheists are unnatural, immoral, immature, stupid and unhappy. And you seriously wonder why people dislike theists? You gotta be kidding ~:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Well a couple things:

First, your 10 second rule. If it takes you 10 seconds to determine your beliefs than there's something wrong with the way you process information. If you're asking what's positive about a solid moral foundation that stresses love and tolerance, I guess you got me there [sic]. Maybe your Christians adhere to the pillage and burn tradition of your ancestors but that's not my experience. Really, what were your ancestors like before Christianity?

Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans.[i] If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

To deny religion is to deny a part of yourself.[ii] Without it what do you rely on, your baser instincts, reason alone? [iii] Many religions share many fundamentals for a simple reason, people need to believe.[iv] The actions they take as a part of that belief are a different story.

One of the reasons why people oppose religion in the US is that they hate feeling that they may be doing something wrong (I expect that is fairly universal). As a result they lash out against religious symbols and beliefs where ever they see them. One of the reasons I support religion is because of the actions that those people take against it. It's also fun to discuss the differences between religions and ponder their historical significance. You'll also find that, on average, those who are even mildly religious tend to be happier than those who aren't at all.

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[i] Why is religion fundamental to humans? Human beings are more than capable of functioning, never mind prospering in the absence of religion. Indeed, it could be argued that religion has a negative effect on those who believe.

[ii] Why do you think that denying the rantings of some bronze age illiterates is a denial of oneself?

[iii]So in the absence of someone telling me what to do I am in peril of murdering, raping, robbing someone?

[iv]Why does someone need to believe? Why can't they just think for themselves instead of being told what to do all the time?

If people feel the need to follow religion that's fine by me but don't infer that others who are able to think freely are somehow degraded for not doing what you think they should do. Religion is, and always has been a tool for manipulating, (hence controlling) the masses. TBH I'm amazed in this day and age why anyone would choose to become religious. There again, very few do choose as the brainwashing starts at an early age.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Because archeologists are such great experts about cognitive ability...
So, you basically say that atheists are unnatural, immoral, immature, stupid and unhappy. And you seriously wonder why people dislike theists? You gotta be kidding ~:rolleyes:

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Yes. And yes, if you look at my post you'll see that's EXACTLY what I said. :dizzy2:

IA:

I: Why is walking on only two legs fundamental to humans? Show me a culture that has prospered in the absence of religion. You really can't because even in communist countries you can find an underground religious population. Ever hear of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

II: You're proving one of my points.

III: See #II

IV: Perhaps you should read the whole post. Did I ever advocate a theocracy?

Look at your ranting, your assumptions, and gross generalizations and tell me who has been manipulated or brainwashed.

As always, when trying to dissect religion and talking to a man of 'faith', I may as well fart in the wind.

Talk about hubris. I was brought up a Christian, I attended Sunday school and religious instruction on a regular basis. Don't make assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Eclectic

Any organized religion, by itself, is pretty darn absurd. You should be skeptical anytime someone demands that you believe in what somebody else wrote just because the writing says you should. No matter what the level of fluff surrounding the writing.

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A-ha! Liberal in the flesh... :grin:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Personally I found it near impossible for a Scandinavian to say anything positive about Christianity. I can somewhat understand the European animosity towards Christianity given their history and the fact that many of the more religious may have emigrated. Mostly I'm curious to see if another religion will fill in this "moral vacuum" as I call it.

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Can i ask,what are you talking about? So you are generalizing about 25 million people of the area of Scandinavia as atheist. Maybe you oughta come visit here some day and see for your self that most of the Scandinavians are protestant Christians,just like majority of Americans. Do we need to be somekind of far right Christian fanatics before we can be counted out of your "moral vacuum".I say GAH.:help:

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

If there was no religion people would die in the name of patriotism, equality or football! its human nature sadly :wall:

Religion is not fundamental to human nature. It is just the distillation of trial and error survival guides for civilisation.

Its like not understanding how a computer game is played and then making up your own manual as you experiment with the key strokes. Would this manual that was earned by trial and error become a holy text because it explains how to play a game? No.

Eating shellfish and pork when you have poor hygiene and no fridges is lethal. If by trial and error I work out that some things are poisonous in a region and then create a manual of what to eat or not eat would this become a holy text? No.

Not listening to the advice of your elders cuts you off from a wealth of knowledge. We now have degrees, masters and doctorates in which on the whole young people learn from older people. Are universities therefore automatically holy sites? No.

Not killing your fellow citizens and not stealing from them allows for a more cooperative group. Your 'team' will beat your neighbours who are killing and stealing off each other. Are good tactics therefore holy? No.

In short just because something is smart and leads to advantages does not make it holy. What does happen is ancient societies without the ability to examine the root causes of their successful rules and to also enforce those rules will make the rules holy and their ruler a diety or a dieties mouth peice.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

A-ha! Liberal in the flesh... :grin:

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I'm a spiritual eclectic. All religions have truth in them but none are true by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

If there was no religion people would die in the name of patriotism, equality or football! its human nature sadly :wall:

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Hm, both the USSR and China are totalitarian regimes that tried to unnaturally supress religious thought. One might point out that it worked somewhat, but one must also point out that the main reason for unhapiness there was the fact that the economy wasn't doing so good and that it was a totalitarian regime and freedoms were scarce. Nazi Germany is a very different story, the difference is, whatever you may say, that the people were quite happy and devoted to the system, and to point things out, religion wasn't supressed, it was simply ignored, like the best systems do ... do what you will, as long as you don't bother others. Many priests sided with fascists and nazis (especially fascists).

And since there is religion people die because someone who claims God talks to him says so. Thank you, but I'll choose to die in the name of patriotism or eqality any day.

It's not that being non-religious doesn't cause suffering, it's just that religion causes more trouble than it's worth.

And I honestly don't know why I keep getting into these debates.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Well a couple things:

First, your 10 second rule. If it takes you 10 seconds to determine your beliefs than there's something wrong with the way you process information. Maybe your Christians adhere to the pillage and burn tradition of your ancestors but that's not my experience. Really, what were your ancestors like before Christianity?

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The 10 seconds rule weren't the time needed to determine your beliefs, it was to define what's good about it from a neutral viewpoint. Things with complicated explainations of why it's good, is often in a bad position when it comes to defending it for whatever reason.
As for the second part: "The monk in armour", Magdeburg. Quite normal behavior in wars and raids.
Now had you said human sacrifices, then you might had a point. Although that was about 900-1000 years ago and hardly a point of why religion is good today.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

If you're asking what's positive about a solid moral foundation that stresses love and tolerance, I guess you got me there [sic].

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And here's actually the only good piece in there. But why would that require you to belive in a divine being setting those rules for us?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Religion, spirituality or whatever you choose to call it is fundamental to our existence as humans. If you look at even the most atheistic archeologist you'll find that they say the existence of religion is a result of our greater cognitive ability.

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Not sure about fundamental here. Spirituality is a development of the question why? The existance of divine beings gives both a better "explaination" of why things happens than "because it's some random happenings by some things" and more importantly, gives the feeling of some control of these random elements. Want a better harvest? You can either hope for luck or pray.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

To deny religion is to deny a part of yourself. Without it what do you rely on, your baser instincts, reason alone? Many religions share many fundamentals for a simple reason, people need to believe. The actions they take as a part of that belief are a different story.

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And beliving gives what? The idea that a god has given you those ideas and therefore they're always right?
Or they share those fundamentals because it's easy to build a society on those ideas...

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

One of the reasons why people oppose religion in the US is that they hate feeling that they may be doing something wrong (I expect that is fairly universal). As a result they lash out against religious symbols and beliefs where ever they see them. One of the reasons I support religion is because of the actions that those people take against it. It's also fun to discuss the differences between religions and ponder their historical significance. You'll also find that, on average, those who are even mildly religious tend to be happier than those who aren't at all.

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I would be interested to hear more about the first statement. What's the wrong you talk about for example?
And there's not need to belive to study theology and religion's historical importance.
As for the happiness argument. As intelligence does inflict negative on happiness and being poor and very rich also does it, we should implement socialism and also trying to be as stupid as possible?
Hardly a good argument is it?

Religion isn't for all and has never been really.

And finally about the situation in Scandinavia. Christianity has found it's place here, and while many is poor Christians they'll also poor Atheists. It's there, but it doesn't shout it's presence daily anymore.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

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that wouldn´t have anything to do with the fact that the 3 examples that you mentioned were bloody dictatorships that imposed their will through force on their own people as well as other would it? :laugh4: I don´t see how you can point to atheism as the source of those countries problems.

In those countries atheism was intituted because religion constituted a threat to the power of the state, so the state itself tried to kill religion off...along with anything it disagreed with...with violent means!...Hell religious leaders through history did the very same thing, only instead forcing people to join their religion...........In a society that naturally progresses towards atheism, like i´m happy to see europe is doing the same problems do not aply.

NAZI Germany was atheistic? I guess they should have dropped the "Gott mit Eins" motto, then. I always thought they considered themselves as Christians.

In Buddhism, rapture could be translated to enlightenment. Each person is capable of reaching enlightenment (becoming a buddha, or more accurately, realizing their own buddhahood) individually.

There is no "getting ready" for enlightenment. Enlightenment is a realization, not an event.

Buddhism and other Chinese philosophies like Daoism don't ask you to believe in anything, just pursue wisdom and virtue.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Buddhism and other Chinese philosophies like Daoism don't ask you to believe in anything, just pursue wisdom and virtue.

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:rolleyes:

Where's the fun in that? You mean you don't get to burn people?

:wink:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:rolleyes:

Where's the fun in that? You mean you don't get to burn people?

:wink:

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Just ask Hulegu Khan... :wink:

Back to rapture ready Of coarse the fact that large chunks of Christianity have anticipated doomdays since exactly 14 seconds after Jesus died doesnt seem to dampen their enthusiasm for lots of people dying horribly.

And now for the date of the Christian apocalypse which is going to occur any second now.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Christian apocalypse is not coming nor is it ever coming. Their may be a catyclismic events in the future, However they will never be specificly based on christian theology/Mythology anymore than Ragnerok, the Hindu end times or whatever

The book of revelations was written by a Greek bull(word for poop) artist/doomsday quack (not peter) quite a while after it's supposes author was dead, it's an insight into 2nd century Christina politics not a guideplan to the future. It only got in the official bible line-up after a comitee (!) where persuaded it was written by old Pete

Their isnt going to be a rapture because even if Revalations was correct the idea of the rapture was invented (made up) in the 19th damn century, their is no anti-christ, Rome is the seat of a dead empire, the head of the Catholic church and a truly awsome place to visit: not the dark capital of an new evil empire, Jesus is probably not coming back. The Jews going back to Israel is just that not some magic starting shot.

Get over it already

meh. it doesnt matter some christians such as catholics, dont believe in there will be a anti-christ. or a rapture. (i think) and since im catholic i dont believe Rome will be a capital of an evil empire! it's imo is the second capital of christianity imo. (after Jerusalem) (though before i was worried of an anti-christ)

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

Buddhism and other Chinese philosophies like Daoism don't ask you to believe in anything, just pursue wisdom and virtue.

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Eh Tachi, Buddhism isn't chinese.

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NAZI Germany was atheistic? I guess they should have dropped the "Gott mit Eins" motto, then. I always thought they considered themselves as Christians.

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The Nazis embraced Christianity and used it to their own advantages with the common people, but the leadership believed in the occult and pre-christian mythology. If the war had been won, they most certainly would have created a "religion" that mixed nationalism and spiritualism into a Teutonic society that had just as much faith in its own supremacy as it did in the supernatural.

I believe the "Gott mit Eins" was a German army tradition that originated long before the Nazis came to power. Im not sure though.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Eh Tachi, Buddhism isn't chinese.

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That's kind of like saying that Christianity is not European. The Chinese adopted Buddhism, even if it began in a neighboring country.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

i dont get this ''religions cause so much suffering'' argument look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany? theres no religion but theres still fighting and suffering.

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Nazi Germany was as much an atheist society as it was a Jewish theocracy. Atheists, laizists and other free thinkers got prosecuted and killed in concentration camps. By Christians, among others.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Yes. And yes, if you look at my post you'll see that's EXACTLY what I said. :dizzy2:

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Yes, that's what you said. Read your own posts above.

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Originally Posted by Tachikaze

That's kind of like saying that Christianity is not European. The Chinese adopted Buddhism, even if it began in a neighboring country.

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I wouldn't call christianity European, either.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Nazi Germany was as much an atheist society as it was a Jewish theocracy. Atheists, laizists and other free thinkers got prosecuted and killed in concentration camps. By Christians, among others.

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Thats a bit misleading, don't you think?

Although technically correct, those involved in the camps were acting more as Nazis than Christians. While they may have been born Christian, the Nazi element and the pressure to follow orders influenced their involvement far more than any Christian beliefs they held.

Those that imagined, planned, and created the holocaust were definitely not Christian.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

that wouldn´t have anything to do with the fact that the 3 examples that you mentioned were bloody dictatorships that imposed their will through force on their own people as well as other would it? :laugh4: I don´t see how you can point to atheism as the source of those countries problems.

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dont you see, thats not what im saying, what im saying is that bad stuff happens in atheist societys too

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Originally Posted by Ronin

In those countries atheism was intituted because religion constituted a threat to the power of the state, so the state itself tried to kill religion off...along with anything it disagreed with...with violent means!...Hell religious leaders through history did the very same thing, only instead forcing people to join their religion...........In a society that naturally progresses towards atheism, like i´m happy to see europe is doing the same problems do not aply.

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society started with atheism didnt it? then religion came, i wonder why? have you not seen the spate of new religions ariveing just as people say its dieing out

Im not saying religions perfect and contrary to what other posters have said i did not even say that my examples were compleately atheist states i said relatively unreligous, and as PanzerJager very rightly pointed out those that orchestrated such terrors as the holocaust were either not christians or mad!

Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter, and sacrifice themselves without any religion to hide behind and that is the point im making, appologies if it was not clear

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

society started with atheism didnt it? then religion came, i wonder why? have you not seen the spate of new religions ariveing just as people say its dieing out

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I suspect that religion is older than society. To put it simple: Gods and spirits occur to explain things that is unexplainable a the time (thunder for example). Worship occurs when people came up with the idea to appease these beings to make the odds better in thier favour, on issues that relies on luck. There, now you have religion (depending on how you define religion).

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

Im not saying religions perfect and contrary to what other posters have said i did not even say that my examples were compleately atheist states i said relatively unreligous, and as PanzerJager very rightly pointed out those that orchestrated such terrors as the holocaust were either not christians or mad!

Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter, and sacrifice themselves without any religion to hide behind and that is the point im making, appologies if it was not clear

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Point is, the Nazi leadership never (openly) defined Nazi- Germany as anything else than a Christian nation. And while the leadership certainly wasn't christians, that's also applicable to quite few leaders and several of them did consider themself christians, some even as devout christians.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:rolleyes:

Where's the fun in that? You mean you don't get to burn people?

:wink:

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You've gotten it wrong, you'll get to burn the monks :devilish:
and pushing them hard enough they'll do it for you :evil:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Thats a bit misleading, don't you think?

Although technically correct, those involved in the camps were acting more as Nazis than Christians. While they may have been born Christian, the Nazi element and the pressure to follow orders influenced their involvement far more than any Christian beliefs they held.

Those that imagined, planned, and created the holocaust were definitely not Christian.

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Hitler probably didn't consider himself as Christian. But there's no doubt many nazis did. Of course, they weren't good Christians, but they also weren't atheists and they certainly weren't laizists. Nazi Germany was a Christian country. Christianity was the official religion, Christian traditions were followed and children were forced to get Christian lectures. Atheists were the victims in Nazi-Germany, not the perpetrators.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Hitler probably didn't consider himself as Christian. But there's no doubt many nazis did. Of course, they weren't good Christians, but they also weren't atheists and they certainly weren't laizists. Nazi Germany was a Christian country. Christianity was the official religion, Christian traditions were followed and children were forced to get Christian lectures. Atheists were the victims in Nazi-Germany, not the perpetrators.

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I completely agree that it is wrong to lump Germany in with the likes of the USSR in attempting to argue that atheist nations are just as violent as religious ones. As you said, atheists were the victims of Nazi crimes, although I think it had more to do with the assumption that atheism was associated with free(and dangerous) thinking, than an actual disbelief in a deity.

However, I do not think it is right to say that Nazi Germany acted as a Christian nation. Most of its leadership, not just Hitler, were occultists. In fact, many lower echelon types succumbed to the Teutonic belief system cultivated long before hitler came to power by the secret societies. The SS was very much a part of that. I do not believe Hitler and the others justified the actions of the nation by divine right, as many Christian nations conducting wars have done either.

The majority of the population in the USSR was also Christian, but it certainly was not a Christian nation. Simply because the Nazis hadnt actively destroyed churches yet, does not make it any more right to say Germany was a Christian nation as it does to say Germany was an atheist nation.

A very well constructed and thoughtful post PJ, now you have a standard to aspire to.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

A very well constructed and thoughtful post PJ, now you have a standard to aspire to.

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Thank you. I am not feeling as incendiary and adversarial as usual, which leads to a bit calmer and more thought out posts. Whether the content of said posts is correct or not is another question entirely. ~;)

werent nazis arians?

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Originally Posted by The Spartan

werent nazis arians?

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No, they weren't followers of Arius' teachings, that I won't go much into here, the part about denying the trinity is enough. The Son is lesser than the Father.

As for Aryans, it's the name of a Indo-European people who established themself as the nobles in India, some thousands years ago. As the language was Indo-European, some ideas about this spreading of this language group was because of a singuar conquest by these Aryans. This supposed conquest was then obviously done by some superior people considering the size of this empire and by some reason thier blood was purest in Germany and Scandinavia (they originated from there or some other mumbo-jumbo).

Most of it is proven false nowadays.

Anyway, to make it short Aryan refers to some supposed race and is completely outside religious matters. Most of the leadership didn't even resemble the idealised picture of how those pure-blooded Aryans would look like anyway.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Thats a bit misleading, don't you think?

Although technically correct, those involved in the camps were acting more as Nazis than Christians. While they may have been born Christian, the Nazi element and the pressure to follow orders influenced their involvement far more than any Christian beliefs they held.

Those that imagined, planned, and created the holocaust were definitely not Christian.

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The whole purpose of fascism is to make things like values, morals, religious beliefs completely irrelevent to the people under their control. If by Christians you mean people who take christianity very seriously, then the Nazi party members and commanders were not such people. They found something that made them feel 100 times better, direct power and self-godliness. With such power over the world, morality becomes utterly pointless in relation to the running of the state.

In other words they functioned as Christians in society, but as power lusting bastards on the field and the camps.

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In other words they functioned as Christians in society, but as power lusting bastards on the field and the camps.

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Thats just it, most of them were not even nominally Christian, and as their power increased, they became more and more open about that fact.

They were not simply Christians who ignored their faith to persue a decidedly non-Christian agenda, they held a completely different belief system that was based on beliefs that far pre-dated Christianity.

I didn't deny the existence of people who denounced christianity in the Nazi party, but they were in the minority. No one can legitmately base their beliefs to the pre-Christian pagan religions anyways, because that line has been interrupted permanently and any attempt to re-create it is just fake and shallow compared to the original. This would leave that small minority of the people you are talking about just "admirers" and "recreationists" than actuall followers of some other religion.

Their main religion was the party, the state, and holy powers.

EDIT: Also they pursecuted freemasons, so occultism is out of the question.

Yes, but didn't Christians nick a lot of their ideas from the 'older' faiths. The Great Flood for example.

I made a mistake between the old and new testaments. Aplogises all.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Yes, but didn't Christians nick a lot of their ideas from the 'older' faiths. The Great Flood for example.

I made a mistake between the old and new testaments. Aplogises all.

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'Nick' is too strong a word 'Heavily influenced' by is a more fair

If memory serves Zoroastrianism, Mithranism and the Roman cult of sol Invictus are big influences on Christianity...well unless you of coarse the dismiss the idea that it's the 100% word of god and thus absolute truth. :shrug:

The church has also incorperated many pagan customs over the centuries as well.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

I completely agree that it is wrong to lump Germany in with the likes of the USSR in attempting to argue that atheist nations are just as violent as religious ones. As you said, atheists were the victims of Nazi crimes, although I think it had more to do with the assumption that atheism was associated with free(and dangerous) thinking, than an actual disbelief in a deity.

However, I do not think it is right to say that Nazi Germany acted as a Christian nation. Most of its leadership, not just Hitler, were occultists. In fact, many lower echelon types succumbed to the Teutonic belief system cultivated long before hitler came to power by the secret societies. The SS was very much a part of that. I do not believe Hitler and the others justified the actions of the nation by divine right, as many Christian nations conducting wars have done either.

The majority of the population in the USSR was also Christian, but it certainly was not a Christian nation. Simply because the Nazis hadnt actively destroyed churches yet, does not make it any more right to say Germany was a Christian nation as it does to say Germany was an atheist nation.

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Well, Hitler was member of the Thule society so he was into something one could call occultism. I don't know for how many party members that's also true, but it remains a point that no one had any trouble for being a Christian.
Germany was at that time about as Christian as the other European countries. I certainly don't mean to say that this could happen in Germany because it was a Christian country. I just object to the claim that the holocaust had anything to do with people lacking religious belief.

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Well, Hitler was member of the Thule society so he was into something one could call occultism. I don't know for how many party members that's also true, but it remains a point that no one had any trouble for being a Christian.
Germany was at that time about as Christian as the other European countries. I certainly don't mean to say that this could happen in Germany because it was a Christian country. I just object to the claim that the holocaust had anything to do with people lacking religious belief.

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alright, this is the second time ive had to repeat myself in this thread, i made sure that i did not claim atheism as the root of all evil or imply that all germans or all russians or all chinese were atheist, the whole argument i am making is that atheism does not make people ''better'' then religious people, not that it makes them ''worse''.

Now hitler wasnt a christian, thats why i mentioned germany, he was an atheist who led people who never the less did evil, now i dont know whether the deluded practices he followed could be considered a religion frankly thats a different argument

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

look at some of the atheist societys (or at least relatively unreligious) we have seen in the past, The USSR, China, Nazi Germany?

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''Relatively unreligious'' see! i didnt say that germany was atheist just that for those who led it religion was not a prime concern

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Originally Posted by A.Saturnus

Well, Hitler was member of the Thule society so he was into something one could call occultism.

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Hitler was never a member of the Thule society. His links with the occult appear to have been a Pragmatic cynicism he considered it useful but ultimatly mumbo-jumbo.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

alright, this is the second time ive had to repeat myself in this thread, i made sure that i did not claim atheism as the root of all evil or imply that all germans or all russians or all chinese were atheist, the whole argument i am making is that atheism does not make people ''better'' then religious people, not that it makes them ''worse''.

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Well, all of you seem to be in circles here, so I'll offer a little outside voice: no one's here claiming Christianity is responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime, or the messed up quality of the Nazism "ideology" overall. At least, not seriously.

(I'm just quoting you in particular as the latest post, not as a specified victim ~:) )

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

Now hitler wasnt a christian, thats why i mentioned germany, he was an atheist who led people who never the less did evil, now i dont know whether the deluded practices he followed could be considered a religion frankly thats a different argument

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Hello, do you have any actual sources that presents the fact that Hitler is Atheist? I recall that Mein Kampf or similar writings possess no passages attacking Christianity much like he attack the future victims. Not being Christian does not mean being Atheist; there are other religions out there for him to follow, or he could create his own easily enough, considering how messed up he probably was in his head, and how the Nazi propaganda machine touches of strange ideas like the glorified "Teutonic" past or the infamous "Aryan" idea.

In other words, you are (and I assume accidentally) claiming that the Nazi leadership are Atheists: "Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter...".

That is a dubious claim. What's the religion of Heinrich Himmler, Hitler himself, or the men of Totenkopf division? I'm not certain they can be defined simply as "Atheist." Of course, no one's saying they're doing it for Christianity either; albeit one could take a position (which I do not take: too much of a simplification and blame, and ignoring significant facts) that the Nazis are simply playing the extreme of the traditional Medieval Christian attitudes towards Jews and Gypsies, among other minorities...

*****

Now, shall we all get back to topic? Something about Raptures incoming...

I tell you, it's all in the hands of a Japanese high school girl. If she ever gets bored with this world much worse things will happen to our very universe than Rapture, like the utter destruction and replacement of it all...

[/geeky reference--requires knowledge of anime to catch]

"Hitler is a Christian is as Saddam is a Muslim" is the best way I can put it...

Both men ran secular regimes and were only nominally religious at best, although they certainly invoked religion to carry out their plans...

Correct, Reenk. And the Nazis imprisoned or killed Christians who got in their way.

I believed human beings are hard-wired to worship something. Whether this manifests itself in a person as a God or the desire to accumulate wealth and pursue happiness is the question. The pursuit of happiness or even great knowledge can lead one astray just as much as blind religious adherence.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Well, all of you seem to be in circles here, so I'll offer a little outside voice: no one's here claiming Christianity is responsible for the crimes of the Nazi regime, or the messed up quality of the Nazism "ideology" overall. At least, not seriously.

(I'm just quoting you in particular as the latest post, not as a specified victim ~:) )
Hello, do you have any actual sources that presents the fact that Hitler is Atheist? I recall that Mein Kampf or similar writings possess no passages attacking Christianity much like he attack the future victims. Not being Christian does not mean being Atheist; there are other religions out there for him to follow, or he could create his own easily enough, considering how messed up he probably was in his head, and how the Nazi propaganda machine touches of strange ideas like the glorified "Teutonic" past or the infamous "Aryan" idea.

In other words, you are (and I assume accidentally) claiming that the Nazi leadership are Atheists: "Im sure there were lots of christians in nazi germany, but the atheists in these countrys managed to slaughter...".

That is a dubious claim. What's the religion of Heinrich Himmler, Hitler himself, or the men of Totenkopf division? I'm not certain they can be defined simply as "Atheist." Of course, no one's saying they're doing it for Christianity either; albeit one could take a position (which I do not take: too much of a simplification and blame, and ignoring significant facts) that the Nazis are simply playing the extreme of the traditional Medieval Christian attitudes towards Jews and Gypsies, among other minorities...

*****

Now, shall we all get back to topic? Something about Raptures incoming...

I tell you, it's all in the hands of a Japanese high school girl. If she ever gets bored with this world much worse things will happen to our very universe than Rapture, like the utter destruction and replacement of it all...

[/geeky reference--requires knowledge of anime to catch]

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my credentials in nazi hostory are poor, now i didnt originally single out hitler anyway, i thought that at least some of the architects of hitlers regime were atheists but perhaps i was wrong it was only a minor part of the point i was making anyway! :laugh4: