The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

This thread is devoted to in-character communications about the Rome Total Realism Platinum PBM explained here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=65972

For all out of character business - including volunteering to join the campaign - please post in the out of character thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67616

This thread should be for Senate business only.

On a personal note, I will post in two strictly separate capacities: as Senate Speaker (which I will preface by SENATE SPEAKER and write in normal type) and as an ordinary participant (which I will preface by the name of my avatar, currently Quintus, and write in italics).

During formal sessions of the Senate (every 10 turns of the game), motions can be proposed. Each motion requires TWO seconders before it can be voted on.

Motions that invalidate existing motions or motions proposed earlier should explicitly state that, otherwise they will be invalidated.

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MOTIONS PROPOSED THIS SESSION OF SENATE

Motion 12.01: This senate authorises the solidification of a permanent boundary in Asia Minor that is, by no means whatsoever, to extend any further north or east beyond the territorial integrity of lands held under the influence of the cities of Heracleia, Ancyra, Adana, and Side.
Proposed: Marcellus Aemilius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Quintus Libo, Manius Coruncanius, Lucius Aemilius

Motion 12.02: If the revised Motion 12.01 is broken by the consul's actions, the consul hereby agrees to immediately step down from his position and relinquish the consulship to a new, elected consul.
Proposed: Servius Aemilius
Seconded: Marcellus Aemilius, Quintus Libo, Manius Coruncanius, Lucius Aemilius

Motion 12.03: When the current temple construction finishes in Rome next season, the Consul must immediately begin construction on a Hippodrome. When the Hippodrome is completed after five season, the Consul must immediately begin construction on an Amphitheatre.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Lucius Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius

Motion 12.04: This house instructs the Consul to re-occupy Viberi with no delay, and to never again abandon it.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Lucius Aemilius

Motion 12.05: This house instructs the Consul to prevent the incursion of any Iberian army into Roman territory by any means at his disposal.
Proposed: Tiberius Coruncanius
Seconded: Lucius Aemilius

Motion 12.06: The next time there is an Iberian incursion into Roman territory lasting more than one season, the Consul is instructed to send Augustus Verginius into Iberian territory for a counter-incursion. However, no military action is to be initiated by Romans unless the Iberians attack. Senator Verginius' force is to be recalled immediately after the Iberians return to their territory. This motion is rendered null if Senator Verginius dies.
Proposed: Marcellus Aemilius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Lucius Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius

Motion 12.07 The Senate instructs the Consul to ensure that three Legions full are stationed along the Republic/Iberian borders.
Proposed: Manius Coruncanius
Seconded: Servius Aemilius, Tiberius Coruncanius

Motion 12.08 Upon approval and completion of Motion 12.07; the Senate instructs the Consul to not permit any more Iberian incursions into Republican territory to go unchallenged. So, any more incursions are to be met with Force and expelled by any means nessasary.
Proposed: Manius Coruncanius
Seconded: Tiberius Coruncanius

Motion 12.09:Before any hostile action be taken against Iberia by ourselves, our situation in the East must be stable, in that there will be no more expansion and there will be at least two legions (three if possible) stationed there for purely defensive purposes.
Proposed: Cornelius Saturnius

Motion 12.10.: We recruit an additional two praetorian sized legions which will be stationed at the coastal cities of Massilia and Palma.
Proposed: Servius Aemilius
Seconded: Manius Coruncanius

Constitutional Ammendment 12.A: At every midterm session of this house, we Senators will elect a Tribune of the Plebs who will have the power to veto 1 (one) motion per session. He will hold office for the session he is elected during and also the following Consular election. He may not veto Ammendments. Note: this ammendment requires 2/3 majority to pass.
Proposed: Quintus Libo
Seconded: Appius Barbatus

This continues the matter of the attack on the Greek Cities

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Lucius Aemilius and Augustus Verginius, you didn't raise any issue with the first motion takes precedence convention when it was originally concieved, why are you raising an issue now when it would invalidate the motion you support? Surely you're not wishing to change the rules each time so that your pet motion passes?

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The conflicting motions at that time either worked out to my satisfaction or did not concern me. I agree with you and the senate speaker, that I should have seen this legislative problem looming in the future and taken steps to avoid it in advance. Nevertheless, I am arguing the case now. The conquest of Byzantium is such a strategic mistake that I can not sit by idly. I would be remiss in my duties as co-sconsul if I did. If we were discussing a trivial matter I would wait untill the next session before proposing a constitutional amendment, but as the matter is so grave, I feel we must resolve it immediately.
Are you afraid of the senate, that you dare not allow an emergency vote ?

[SENATE SPEAKER]: First Consul, please, allow me to open the proceedings! Your enthusiasm does you credit, but some decorum please.

As I was about to say at the outset, welcome, Senators, to another chapter in the deliberations of this august house. I know that some important procedural issues were discussed quite recently and understand that Senators may wish, contrary to my personal preference, to keep debating them. In this regard, I would only observe the last line in the notice posted above:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by First post of Senate deliberations II & III threads

Motions that invalidate existing motions or motions proposed earlier should explicitly state that, otherwise they will be invalidated.

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Note that this was simply copied from the start of the previous chapter of our deliberations. In accordance with this convention, I hereby strike down motions 10.6 and 10.8 as being invalid in so far as they contradict motion 10.2

We witness here the birth of tyranny. Those men who have the most to gain from this action also, it seems, have the power to enforce their will against the Republic. They do so through acts of dubious validity backed by an authority that cannot be reprimanded by this body. Worst of all, they refuse to consult with the citizens of Rome. This would be bad enough if it were just some normal legislation, but alas it is worse than that.

These acts which are being pushed through threaten to throw the Republic into war with the two greatest empires in the world. Countless citizens will lose their lives in these struggles. Unimaginable amounts of money will be diverted from projects to better the lives of Romans to these wars. No one will benefit from this, save those generals who command the armies which are given looting rights in the devestated regions. The same men who now push through this abomination to the ideals of the Republic.

Do not fool yourselves, Senators, we witness here today the corruption of justice and the beginning of a long descent into an 'Imperial' Rome.

That's a rather lovely oration, Verginius. It would be even nicer if it was graced by the presence of any facts.

The fact is that we have a convention to deal with contradictory motions. This convention has been in place for over 10 years. It has been used more than once to deconflict contradictory motions. It was clearly stated as a convention that will be used. You did not complain at all.

But now, that your motion is the one to be invalidated by that convention (something you could have easily prevented), all of a sudden, it's tyranny!

Maybe it is, but it is you who we should keep an eye on. The Speaker has applied the same standard to these motions as in the past. But no, this is Augustus Verginius' motion! No, no, rules that apply just fine for other motions do not apply to it! We must revote on it until it passes!

In short, I would be much more willing to consider your complaints about the Senate conventions if those were based on a true concern about how the Senate operates. It is, however, quite clear that these complaints come from the fact that your motion was defeated. You haven't even suggested a better way to deconflict contradictory motions! All you have done is complained about which motion is to be followed. It is obvious that your motives are to push your agenda, rather than to reexamine the workings of the Senate, and I don't much care for it.

How can I possibly benefit from from the legislation I proposed? What is in it that will have even the remotest effect on my person? I have publicly stated that I will not ever leave the Gallic front and I mean that. I will neither gain nor lose regardless of any action that is taken on this matter. No, I do not speak out for myself, I speak out for the Republic.

You say I only speak up now because it is my legislation that has been voted down? Clearly you do not remember that the second of the two previous issues was just that; the approval of others' legislation over my own. I did not speak up then because they were trivial issues in the grand scope of affairs. If I was truly so interested in my own legislation, as you suggestion, I would have demanded another vote then, as now; but I did not because it is not self-interest that drives me. I speak for the citizens of Rome, Senator Coruncanius, whom do you speak for?

The previous matters which you cite as proof of my complacency were minor issues of little significant to the future of Rome. There are entire orders of magnitude between those incidents and this one. This is a very serious matter that may plunge us into the most devestating wars the world has ever seen. I would be as guilty of criminal neglicence as Publius Laevinus if I held my tongue under such circumstances. If the Republic is to risk war with the most powerful empires in the world, it must do so with the clear consent of the Senate! It makes me sick to think that such a monumentous decision can be made on the basis of a procedural policy that was never voted upon by anyone. I am not afraid of my legislation being defeated. There can be no defeat if the Republic as a whole desires this course of action. I will fully submit and say not a single word more on this, regardless of the outcome, if it is put to a vote.

What reason do you have for denying a vote? Why do you wish to prevent the citizens from making their voices heard? Do you consider war with Selucia and Ptolemy such a minor matter that a single day's delay in its commencement would annoy you?

Let us look at what the Senate voted for, shall we? The text of Motion 10.2 reads:

This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.

This motion passed with a wide margin. This motion is perfectly clear, and there is no way you can deny that the Senate wishes anything other than the conquer Byzantium, based on how they voted on that motion. Motion 10.6 reads:

No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours.

For the most part, Senators who voted for this motion did not vote for the other one, and vice versa. Some Senators voted for both, however. Why do you suppose that is? This motion isn't as clear. Senators may not have been aware of the exact geographical situation. With the extreme clarity of Motion 10.2, how can we come to any conclusion other than that certain Senators thought Byzantium was exempt, for whatever reason, from the provisions of this motion. Titus Vatinius was one of the Senators who voted for both motions, and I quote her.. err, him:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tricky Lady

[TITUS VATINIUS]

Errr... Perhaps I didn't study Lucius Aemilius' engravings well enough as I have voted for both motions 10.2 and 10.6 while it was my intention to only approve motion 10.2. My apologies, it is clear that it was not a good moment for me to judge on senate motions after a long night party... emmm... discussing with my priest of Mars.
I shall make sure to be more careful during the next voting rounds.

(On the other hand my vote doesn't seem to make the difference)

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You also mentioned Motion 10.8, but I disagree with your reasoning. Motion 9.18 states how wars with Thrace, Illyria, and Macedon should be fought (i.e. with an objective of reaching the Danube). The non-mention of the Greeks by this motion simply means that motion does not at all address the war with the Greeks, not that it prohibits it.

In any case, Motions 10.6 and 10.8 are much less clear in their intent than Motion 10.2. While there is room for variable interpretations of those two motions, there is only one way to interpret Motion 10.2, and this motion has been approved by the Senate. I do not see how it is in any way conceivable that the will of the Senate is anything other than to capture Byzantium.

It is exactly for this reason that I oppose another vote on the issue. Even disregarding all precedent concerning contradictory motions, it is clear that the Senate wants Byzantium. I can only imagine that you would introduce even more complicated and unclear motions at the proposed emergency session. Yet, if we again had the motion with the text:

This house instructs the First Consul to conquer Byzantium.

Is there really any doubt about how the Senate would vote? I don't see any better way to have the Senate decide on the issue of Byzantium. I fear your intent may be to obfuscate the issue, which is why I am against a vote on the exact thing we already voted on.

We could have a vote on precedence rules, but I would be weary of applying them retroactively, so it is best left to the next session.

Let the senators who voted to conquer Byzantium join the men they would throw into that snake pit! Let the venom of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid adders seep into their veins as it would the honorable flesh and blood of the Roman soldiers that these senators would send to an isolated hades on Earth. You are condemning these men to certain death.

Now that I have spoken my mind as to the inept thought by those that have voted for motion 10.2, my opinion on the conflicting motions is...

In my eyes, both motions are valid, and both motions stand, however, because motion 10.2 instructs the consul to take Byzantium, but motion 10.6 states that no attacks shall be made on Greek cities that do not border Rome, and both motions were passed, then I do not feel that attacking Byzantion is a direct instruction of the senate until Byzantion borders Rome. For Byzantion to border Rome, we would have to go to war with the Ptolemies, which no motion in this session advised. So, in my mind, the consul is not required to assault Byzantion unless the Greeks expand westward in Ptolemeic land and once again border Rome, in which case we would have an open attack at Greek land leading to Byzantion.

Further more, to my confusion, two of the senators who voted for attacking Byzantion voted against the motion that advised the replenishment of the legions. How is Rome supposed to fight any battles with undermanned legions, let alone take and hold a city that it shares no border with and cannot hope to keep supplied by sea when it's surrounded by two of the world's largest nations?

Further more, there is no possible way that the wording of motion 10.6 could cause confusion leading up to the conflict between the two motions. "No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours." Or, in fools terms, as it seems things need to be placed. *Speaks in a mocking voice* "We can't attack them if we can't see their land from ours."

The only confusion here is senators' poor knowledge of Roman borders and the things that lie outside them. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some that didn't know a world existed outside Rome at all. To them, the names Carthage, Ptolemy, Seleucid...they probably sound like the names of master toga weavers! If only I were so foolish that I could spend 1,000 denarii on a toga and ignore the pain of Roman citizens, I might be like many others in this senate.

Conscript Fathers, if I may interrupt here. When I first saw that the both of the motions in question had passed, I must confess my heart lept! Now I had a way of not attacking Byzantion, an act that you all know I have been greatly opposed to.

Unfortunately, I had forgotten the rules and the precedent regarding contradicting motions. Much as I do not like it in this case, I must bow to the voting rules of this august house. Augustus Verginius, you have spoken passionately against this result, but in the past you have spoken equally passionately about the need for order - how it is our laws and rules that separate us from the barbarians. I urge you know to remember what you have said in the past and swallow your pride. I agree with what you and my co-consul say about the madness of this proposed expidition, but that does not mean I shall not ignore the laws of this house.

So with a heavy - nay, solemn heart I accept that Byzantion must be conquered. But hear this Conscript Fathers, hear this! My consulship has 10 more seasons to run, do not expect this great walled city to be taken afore the year is out! As I have told you my astrologers and augers have predicted war with Ptolomy shortly. Numerius Aureolus has dreamed of an equally dire future. I predict this debate shall all be academic soon anyway.

And if it is not, Servius Aemilius speaks words of wisdom. Let those who would seek to enact such foolish actions risk their lives to do it.

Senators,

I must apologise for being absent from the last Senate Vote, this was due to my studies who have reached their final stages before I can leave my education and join the Republic in service.

I fear the same issue will occur (OOC: Depending on how fast the game is played) for the next voting session but I hope it will not.

I apologise mainly because my vote could have stopped this internal feud and the bickering about procedure.

However, I will publicly announce now, that I would have supported motion 10.2, perhaps we will have had the same heated debate even if motion 10.6 was clearly not voted through? The reasons for support in both is understandable.

Senator Publius Pansa speaks the truth and I will not turn to the plebs for action or any other such illegal act, even if it would aid the Republic. Yet, I would like to take a moment to clarify to all exactly what madness has been enacted here.

First, Debeltos is to be taken and then immediately gifted to Ptolemy. Second, Byzantion is to be taken and held and neither Nicomedia nor any other Greek city is to be attacked. While all of Greece's current attention is diverted to the east in their war with Seleucia, it will surely turn back against us as soon as we take Byzantium. While they certainly cannot threaten us, this removes a limiting force on one of the two great eastern empires. In Macedonia, we shall remove the only enemy of Ptolemy in Europe, leaving his armies in the area idle. We shall then surround ourselves with warring empires and block the most significant access point by which they can fight. One, most likely both, will attack us and we will be forced to hold the city while in some 'desperate' and dramatic fashion while relief armies move east to relieve it. Perhaps the relief will arrive just in time, to find Numerius Aureolus alone in the city claiming that the rest of the legion fought to its death and that it was only the prompt arrival of allies that scared the enemy away!

Regardless, this will mean war with either or both of the eastern empires, one which will surely not cease in any of our lifetimes. We will permanently lose trade access to all eastern ports, revenue will drop, and thousands of citizens will be killed in battles. For what, I ask you? For the vanity of a few men who will profit at the expense of the Republic.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, with all respect, I fear you misunderstand the situation. If Egypt does turn hostile (as I expect), they will indeed surround Debeltos. But they will not attack the city of Debeltos. Rather, we will march from Debeltos to attack them. In one season, Legio V could take Tylis and the pro-Consul's army could take Maronia. This would expell the Egyptians from Europe.

Such a swift response to Egyptian aggression would also lead to our territory becoming adjacent to Byzantion. Hence Motion 10.6 would not apply. Neutral Egypt going to war with us would also negate Motion 10.8. So let us not argue over hypothetical contradictions. The pro-Consul has indicated he will not act precipitously in the matter of Byzantion. Let us take one step at a time and respond to events on the ground.

Mention of the Co-Consul leads me to respond his accusation in his First Consul's Report that I was insurbordinate for refusing to exterminate Debeltos. Co-Consul, I sincerely apologise for any slight given, it was not intended. But the stipulation that no city (except Carthage) may be exterminated is the second rule in our constitution. It can only be over-riden by a Senate motion. Co-Consul, for the good of the Republic, the two of us must co-operate closely on the field of battle in the coming seasons. Let us not fall out over simple adherence to the rules.

I would also like to humbly remind the Consuls that our ships can only practically carry one unit of soldiers each. The trip to Debeltos was so over-crowded, I swear, the Bastarnae and Samartians had to swim alongside us through the Bosphorus. I would also remind them that it is possible to retrain ship crews to bring them back up to strength. The last ship in the fleet had only a captain as its crew. Although he was rather a dour fellow, I feel he could use some company - especially in the event of a sea battle.

Make whatever excuses and legal justification you wish Aureolus. You and your backers are drawing us into a war that will exact a heavy toll on the Republic, both physically and financially. There is more to life than conquest, Aureolus, and there is more to being a Roman than finding victory in battle. The Gauls were driven to Rome out of greed and it is greed that propels us to Byzantium. In the end, our victories over the Gauls will be hollow if we become barbarians ourselves.

First of all noble Senators, I announce my marriage to the most beautiful Urgunalla. It is a fine match that has been made for me and I will do my damnest to ensure the creation of more noble citizens and future Legates of the Republic!........*he, he*

Now, to more serious matters. I have to say that although I support the taking of Byzantion I have to remind the Co-Consuls that whilst it is a matter the Senate has instructed them to perform, there is no timescale upon this apart from the ending of the Co-Consulship.

I refer to that which has been stated by my good friend Numerius Aureolus in this matter in that both motions 10.2 and 10.6 can be upheld and I say that we do not march to war, nay, we are forced into it by the continued rejection of every diplomatic mission we send.

How can anyone stand here and say WE are forcing war when it is our neighbours, who constantly reject us….even an offer of a profitable city and province is not enough to grant friendship with them it seems.

If they are to act thus, then let it be so, and war is the result Senators. It is our neighbours who force us to secure our borders thus…..no dreams of conquest fill my mind, just the hope that IF…..IF, we can expel those factions around us who continue to refuse to even parlay with us, then and only then can we have an assured peace Senators.

I had hoped that if we manage to maintain waterbound borders we could have peace but it seems that Carthage did not subscribe to that ideal….so…..

Now, I draw the Senators notice to Melite and the Carthaginian aggression! I am gladdened by the Co-Consuls swift response in this matter but we must not believe the issue is dealt with until the Carthanagianis have been expelled…..or indeed until their capital burns!

I do not have long until my studies have ended, then I will be at the disposal of the Co-Consuls; but I ask that perhaps I am granted leave until I have succeeded in my personal quest with my new wife?

(OOC: See the OOC thread for my timescale for joining the lower house)

Young Coruncanius, I believe, though the Senate Speaker may correct me, that unless stated otherwise, motions are only applicable to the current consulship.

Now, go and enjoy your honeymoon. There will be plenty of battles for all of us when you return. *mutters under breath* except for Alexander Aureolus no doubt....

You are correct Co-Consul, however, that's what I stated.

With only two, is it?, regions between ourselves and Byzantion....regions that will perhaps become hostile very soon....do you not see it very possible that we will border Byzantion before your Consulship ends, and therefore, be able to uphold Motion 10.2 without violating 10.6?

10 seasons is a very long time. We have seen Dynasties be destroyed in less time.

Dynasties, master Coruncanius? Is this a hint that the Coruncanii have royal ambitions and wish to rule Rome as the new generation of tyrants?

I was, blatantly, referring to those “Dynasties” that we have seen demise – many by our hand. Macedonia for example.

My family IS a Dynasty…..this means we have a long history. Thus I use the word in the Family sense not the Emperic sense.

Be careful about trying to put words into my mouth Senator, I am staunchly a Republican, first and foremost, a member of my family secondly to that great responsibility. Others have recently put family before the Republic and with very grave consequence.

Tribune Numerius Aureolus,

You walk a tight rope between respect and insubordination. Remember, you have not yet earned the respect of high office, and a fall now might yet be quite deep. Nevertheless, your arguments are persuasive and I will let your disobidiance in this matter slide considering your accomplishements on this mission.

I apologize if I have miscalculated the number of ships required to transport your legion (I count avatars for free, by the way). Those fleet engagements did us more harm than I realised. I can imagine how uncomfortable you must have been on the long and dangerous voyage and I applaud your men for fighting such a valiant action at the end of it (ships, like troops, may be retrained in an emergency. What specifies an emergency is something the consuls must decide for themselves, but I advise reluctance on their part). Your strategy was sound, but your tactics still have some of the recklesness of youth in them.

The death of the last general responsible for the death of an Roman consul, my friend an co-consul Amulius Coruncanius, pleases me greatly and spreads fear amongst our enemies at a critical moment in the continuing story of our Republic, the resurgence of the Republic of Carthage. I will make the appropriate offerings tonight to bring his spirit to rest and I hope it slightly eases the grief of my friend, the general Tiberius and his family. The destruction of the kingdom of Macedonia might have appeared like a reckless exercise by some in this house, but it has shown our enemies that Rome will not give up the pursuit of them no matter how far they flee, nor will we stop the pursuit untill they surrender or perish.

I will speak out on the strategy the consuls will follow and the renewed Carthagian threat when I resume command of our armed forces.

Aureolus did nothing wrong. It is clearly against the constitution to exterminate a city without the approval of the Senate. "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Hopefully the Senate will let the issuing of this illegal order slide, seeing how the order was not executed.

Also, Lucius Aemilius, I most eagerly await to hear your strategy on dealing with the Carthaginians, seeing how it was you who withdrew our troops from Sicily. I am also wondering why I spent most of my Consulship improving the fleet if the Carthaginians will be allowed to drive their boats wherever they want, including near our islands.

The fleet cannot be everywhere at once and has been heavily tasked in the wars with Macedon & Greece. Most of the western fleet was in harbour for repair & reinforcement, or on their way to such.

Furthermore Melite is but a stones throw from Africa - the Carthaginians could probably swim there with little difficulty.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The Carthaginians seem to be landing in force. It would be wise not to under-estimate them. The Praetorian army already en route to Sicily may not be enough now that we know the threat of landings is real and not merely hypothetical. I wonder, what are the Consuls thoughts on our appropriate response?

And specifically, which Lower House generals are the Co-Consul intending to task with fighting the Carthaginians? I hastened to add, I ask only out of curiosity, I have no particular personal stake in this question - I suspect I am currently the furthest general from Melite in the whole Republic.

Senator Tiberius Coruncanius,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Aureolus did nothing wrong. It is clearly against the constitution to exterminate a city without the approval of the Senate. "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Hopefully the Senate will let the issuing of this illegal order slide, seeing how the order was not executed.

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I had made it clear on several occasions in my speeches in the senate that if we took Debeltos, it would be razed to the ground and abandoned one way or the other. The senate was well aware of the consuls' views and not one voice was ever raised in protest. As the senate then voted for motion 10.1 almost unanomously this is clearly not to be considered an order we gave, but an order which was given by the senate.

Instead, tribune Numerius Aureolus has taken it upon himself to dictate state policy. As it was indeed against our constitution I was willing to let it slide this time, but the fact remains that he violated a direct order from the highest raking body in this state. A tall order for such a young man, which the senate might take exception to. Lastly, but most importantly, the rule was clearly instigated to prevent army commanders from senslessy exterminating towns, but didn't we just exterminate Gergovia, again, on direct orders of the senate ?

I was trying to spare this young man an impeachment, but now I feel compelled to ask if any senator wishes to accuse him of treason ?

Technically, that senator would be right to do so. I ask the senate's forbearance in this matter, as the young man was clearly carried away by compassion, and as his mission was a success otherwise, clearly the Gods were not offended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Also, Lucius Aemilius, I most eagerly await to hear your strategy on dealing with the Carthaginians, seeing how it was you who withdrew our troops from Sicily. I am also wondering why I spent most of my Consulship improving the fleet if the Carthaginians will be allowed to drive their boats wherever they want, including near our islands.

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I cannot make it rain legions and warships out of the blue sky, senator. The grieveous losses in my first term did not help either. I shall neglect to go into the sorry state of our armies when I took over as consul, or that the entire fleet was hundreds of miles away from Carthage of the coast of Greece, instead of divided in three parts as it is now.
Instead, I point you to my forsight of immediately sending a new legion to Sicily the moment Numidia was destroyed, even if it has now costs us Acquileia, we at least have a legion and a fleet on the scene in Sicily.

p.s. Senate Librarian, kindly add the carried interim motions to the library if you will.

[Senate Librarian] Er, yes... I was just getting around to that. I was busy copying the appropriate scrolls just at the moment that your messenger found me.

*looks down at the wine stains on his toga*

Er... well... I... I'll see to it immediately!

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:The First Consul's forebearance is gratefully acknowledged and I do not wish to test it further. I would merely ask any Senator who believes the order to exterminate Debeltos was constitutional to compare motions 10.1 and 9.1. Motion 10.1 made no mention of extermination. The situation with Gergovia was quite different, as extermination was explicitly called for in motion 9.1.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On the matter of the constitution and exterminations, in order to avoid future disputes, I would like to make the following advance ruling:

Motions which authorise exterminations must be labelled as constitutional ammendments and will require a two-thirds majority to be passed. Even if the exterminations are one-off events, they are over-riding the constitution and this is something that should not be done lightly.

On an unrelated point, observant Senators may have noticed that we have adopted the unstated convention that drawn motions (equal votes for and against) are treated as failed motions. As with the ruling on exterminations, I mention this now to forestall possible future disputes.

This sounds like a sound ruling. I would advise senate members posing extermination proposals to do this in a seperate motion. Otherwise their 'capture city X' motion might be voted down as it did get a majority, but not a 2/3 majority. I would advise the senate speaker to add these rules, and the amendments, to the senate lore, if he has not already done so.

Unforetunatly, it seems we did not move fast enough in our bid to attempt an alliance with the Carthaginians, an action which I had strongly supported. In that respect, I would be willing, as soon as the senate deems me worthy, to lead a legion against the Republic of Carthage. I had supported a friendship with them, but if friendship is not within their interests, I will repel them from Rome's shores, and take the fight back to them.

Bravo, Master Chief! Err, I mean, senator. However, do you intend to defeat Carthage's vast armies with a single legion? That is folly. It is not like Alexander's campaign in Asia, against armies of ragtag peasants. The Carthaginians are well trained and well equipped, and even have the mighty elephants. I urge you to rethink on this issue, Senator Aemilius.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

It saddens me that a potential alliance with Carthage has turned into an inevitably costly war. Senator Laevinus, do not worry, young Servius will not fight alone against the Carthaginians. I volunteer my services to the cause and request relocation to the Sicilian front, and on to Africa if necessary thereafter.

I would also like to add that I appluad Tribune Aureolus' actions at Debeltos, and his integrity in the aftermath.

Regarding the disobedience of Numerius Auerolus at Debeltos, I will not pursue the matter further as he has a legal technicality to protect him from not performing what was clearly the will of this house, as discussed in the last interim session. Both myself and my co-consul made it quite clear that we intended to raze Debeltos to the ground should the motion to take it pass. My mistake was that I was so focussed on defeating that motion, I did not think to insert a clause specifically calling for the cities destruction should I be forced to take it.

As for the Carthaginian war - I do not have access to my scrolls at this moment, but I believe our only lower house Senators within reach of Sicily and Melite are those youngsters studying in Rome, most of whom are still one or two years away from completing their studies. Of the senior lower house Senators I believe the nearest 2 are Augustus Verginius in Gaul and Lucius Aemilius west of Auqilia.

At least Numerius Aureolus has now removed himself from wishing to join the Carthaginian campaign. A pleasant change from his constant demands to be sent wherever the action is. Send me to Thrace! Send me to Macedon! Send me to Debeltos! Send me to Byzantion! Send me to Melite! At last our young Alexander realises that even he cannot fight battles in Greece and Melite at the same time.

I do not wish to sound as impertinent as Numerius Aureolus, but I also do not wish to leave the Gallic front until I recieve word that they have been completely destroyed. In my opinion, a senior Senator is not needed for this mission anyway. Motion 10.8 forbids the Consuls from taking any land from Carthage during the remainder of their term. This certainly does not apply to defending or re-taking Melite as the case may be, but that is an assignment that truly can be done by a single Legion if it is competently led.

Task one of the younger Senators with the rescue of the tiny island and be done with it. We will surely debate the value of a full African campaign at the next election.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I seem to have offended the Co-Consul, but at the risk of further offence, I should state emphatically that I do not rule myself out from personal involvement in action against Carthage. If we do mount a full African campaign at some stage, as Senator Verginius suggests, it would be the most glorious military endeavour the Republic has yet engaged upon. No young tribune would rule themselves out from such. I merely state that, being in far-off Debeltos and surrounded by Egyptians, I recognise that I may not be the Consuls first choice to defend Melite. If I am, I would go there with a happy heart.

On the issue of senior Lower House generals, we do not need reminding that in war, it is the convention that the Consul lead our armies into the heaviest fighting. Currently, we have two active theatres of war - a large, open Thracian front and a currently narrow southern one, at the moment focussed on Melite but possibly extending to the other islands, including Sicily. Fortunately, we have two Consuls. The First Consul is already battling the Thracians. That leaves the Co-Consul in what is now a quiet eastern border with Egypt. I suggest that the Co-Consul move to take overall charge of the southern front.

Thank you senator Saturninus for your support. Perhaps, when the senate deems us worthy of leadership, we shall lead the defense against the Carthaginians together.

Senators, is it necessary that we have two full legions defending Gaul now?

One of them (preferable Legio III) should be activated to subdue the Carthaginian threat. This is the theatre that can be spared a legion, as well as the one that gets the soldiers to the action quickest. Send Legio III to fight Carthage!

{Cornelius Saturninus}

That would be a foolhardy move senator Aemilius, seeing as how Iberia is a major threat to us in the west. If anything, we will probably need more legions in the area shortly. My hopes lie in the possibility of a short conflict with Carthage, throwing them back into the sea from which they came and ending it there. Our priorities lie with Iberia. I fear we've allowed them to become much too powerful and a major threat to our overall stability. They are just too much of a wildcard. If preemptive action is not taken very soon senators, prepare for the worst. We mustn't be caught with our togas around our ankles, busying ourselves in Africa, I've come to see this now. I believe we must strike, and strike fast, push the stinking Iberians back into the peninsula and secure the mountain border above, effectively splitting their kingdom. From there, I would like to take the entire peninsula as it would be more easily defensible against Iberian retaliation from the North, and would give us a strategic foothold for a future African invasion. As you can imagine, this will be an enormous effort, requiring the full industrial and administrational capabilities of the Republic.

I would push for immediate action, but I believe a more measured approach will be more to our benefit. Refitting our legions and troops quickly before making any military advances should be attempted, a great logistical effort. At least three legions must be committed to the campaign, maybe more. However, we may not have the luxury of time for such indulgences. The Iberians are a fierce, aggressive peoples, you've seen how they've expanded their lands and military might in these past few decades. I've been researching much about them in the Greek libraries where I've been these few years and learning terrible things, and I believe I might be a good asset for the Republic. I request permission from this Senate to travel to Italy and raise troops myself to prepare for any upcoming incidents.

I believe that within the current Consul's term, or at least the next, Rome will see a war the likes of which we've never seen nor would ever wish for. However, it will be a necessary war lest we wish our children to be the slaves of savage, barbarious mosters. Senators, if you thought the Gauls were something, you have yet to see anything.

Cornelius Saturninus speaks the truth when he says we need to maintain a strong presence in Gaul. Any reduction in our troops numbers there will be seen as weakness by the Iberians and war will ensue. For many years now, maintaining peace with Iberia has been a priority for our Republic. I am sure war with them will come - but I would would rather it be later than sooner.

The conflict is already with Carthage. Are we to just throw them back to Afrika every time they get the gall to invade Melite or another of our islands? No, Carthage must be reminded of our superiority. Praetor Coruncanius showed wisdom when proposing a raid, and I now realize I was wrong to disagree with him. Carthage must pay for its insolence.

(OOC: You guys are right, but at least take me out of Comata! I want my military service counter to keep ticking!)

Conscript fathers,

I find myself to be siding with Cornelius Saturninus on the matter of troop deployment, I don't deem Carthage our biggest rival at the moment. Not while we have the expansion driven Iberians to our West, and the Great Nation of Egypt to our east. War with both is inevitable it seems, they are simply to powerful to ignore. And I know they think the exact same way.

Carthage can be ignored for now. It is to our east and west we must look first. To our east the Iberians expand destroying everyone in their path, and soon their path Will cross that of our own.Their military might must not be underestimated!. I'd even say they have more troops in the area than we do...

On the other side of the world we must contend with the Egyptians, who, if they 'd dare, could push as far as Athens before we could strike them with a sufficient amount of force to break them. Only one legion stands between Byzantium and Thessalonica, if that doesn't prove to be enough then the closest army in the neighborhood would Tiberius the Victor's army. Who is currently guarding against Thracian intrusion in the north. So if the treasury could handle it, we shouldf think about strengthening the garrisons in Greece and Macedonia. Or reenforce the current legion near the Egyptian border.

I myself would love to help in anyway I could and don't worry, Tiberius the Victor, my father by adoption, has trained me for 6 years. I am ready to command my own army, and I do hope you agree Conscript Fathers.

Flavius Pacuvius, legate under Tiberius the Victor.

:balloon2:

Flavius, if the Ptolomites do attack, unless the significantly strengten their armies in Europe, their defeat would be short and swift. They only have 2 cities on our side of the Bosphorus. We have 2 legions (mine and Numerius Aureolus) adjacent to their land. The problem will be holding off their reinforcements as they attempt to cross from Asia Minor.

OOC: IIRC there is a land bridge at Byzantion, and another at the southern end of the Bosphorus

Publius Pansa, you are quite right about the defeat that Ptolemy would suffer should he attack us, but there would be no reinforcements out of Asia. Ptolemy's holdings in Asia are too far south, Ionia and such. There would be Seleucid territories betweeen us, and the Aegean sea.

I do not see why some keep insisting that Iberia is a bigger threat than Carthage. Iberians have never been hostile to us. They allowed us to almost destroy their supposed allies, the Gauls. They even gave us money when one of their armies found itself inside our expanding borders.

And what did Carthage do? They launched an invasion! At the mid term some claimed that Carthage would not be hostile to us any further, and even suggested a ceasefire. Ok, so that was completely wrong, but there was still a reasonable argument for it. But how can anyone now think that the Carthaginians are anything but completely hostile? Just what will stop them from invading further islands, other than Roman military might?

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Once again, I find myself in agreement with Praetor Coruncanius. I fear that we - myself included - have concerned ourselves too much with the possibility of potential wars with our neighbours Iberia, Egypt and Seleucia. We overlooked the actual threat posed by our existing wars with Thrace - who have already seized one settlement from us - and with Carthage - who are about to seize Melite.

We have set a line of the Danube river to hold against the Thracians. I trust to the First Consul to establish this frontier and hold back the barbarians.

We had trusted to the seas to form a barrier between us and Carthage. We now see that such a belief was mistaken. The seas are not like a river - they cannot be so easily watched and there are no bridges or fords at which travellers across them can be easily stopped. We must guard our shores watchfully and begin preparations to make our own expedition across the Mediterranean.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Senator Coruncanius, all that will be needed to stop any further invasions by the Carthaginians will be one, maybe two legions stationed in strategic locations where a seaborne invasion is likely. Perhaps one in Sicily, another in Central or Southern Italy. All this could have been avoided however, if the senate had realized that a ceasefire was crucial when we had the chance. That is all water under a bridge now. It is essential that this body does not make another mistake at present time. All our strength must be focused to the west. Any potential conflict with the Ptolemies will not be of major consequence to us, as already discussed. One or two legions in the east should be enough to keep our lands safe.

The Iberians will only continue to expand and bring more money and manpower under their rule... money and manpower they will use to wage a war on us. It is true, they offered us a paltry gift of around 500 denarii, but that was only to stave us off long enough for them to be fully prepared for their offensive. That was their advance scout force in our lands senators, hiding behind tribute and respect whilst the main forces assemble. I urge you senators, do not make a costly mistake now, send me and other able generals to crush the Iberians. I have gotten all I can out of these greek cities, now it is time to put my skills to use for the good of the Republic.

So, Saturnius, you say that one or two legions would be able to protect Italy's very long coastline, and 4 islands, from invasion, but somehow one or two legions are not enough to defend in Transalpine Gaul, and, as a result, we must attack the Iberians? Now I do wonder why one would make such an egregiously faulty argument? Perhaps you are ignorant? Or maybe you think the Republic is not involved in enough wars as it is? Or do you hate the Iberians? Maybe you want to lead the charge personally but are afraid of the sea? Perhaps you have spent too much time among the Greeks, and adopted their faulty strategy? Have I guessed correctly yet?

{Cornelius Saturninus}

You are nowhere near the truth senator. One or two legions to defend our coastlines are more than enough. One in Sicily can be transported to any of the nearby islands, as well as move north to Southern Italy if necessary within a season, more than enough time to halt any advance. Another legion in Central Italy can defend all of the peninsula's coastline and the islands to the west. Do you believe it necessary instead to have a legion stationed every few hundred miles along the coast, just waiting for an invasion in their immediate sector? No, I believe two legions are more than enough. These are men senator, men who can move from place to place to defend as necessary. These are the Roman legions, the most capably lead soldiers in the world. If a threat is near, they will reach it and dispose of it.

On the other hand, in the Iberian front we have many more points of attack they can choose, much like our current Thracian front. As you saw, a Thracian army sneaked through our borders and took a settlement from under our noses. Why? Because the border is wide, the lands far and expansive. Unlike our coastline, which can have only so many strategic entry points, and of which the chances of invasion are less than land encroachments.

Senator, you would do well to try and learn as much as you can yourself from the Greeks or any others. Do not snub knowledge just because it comes from a different source. If you believe my arguments are not warranted and I am just warmongering, you senator Coruncanius, may be the ignorant one. War with Iberia is coming. Whether or not we are ready for it is up to us. Balancing the power in the West is a necessary prefix to our invasion of Africa. Without it, we will be in a much worse predicament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLYdude

Iberians have never been hostile to us.

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Yet Senator. Yet.....



As for Carthage, perhaps the Senate Speaker could clarify this issue for me, but I was under the impression, based upon the motions passed in the last session, that conquest of any Carthaginian territory is not allowed. I fear that it might come down to the minutiea of the relevant motions, debated at length by those with more intrest in legal technicalities than myself.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The Consuls are responsible for interpreting legislation, but I agree with the Co-Consul - my reading of Motion 10.8 is that it does prevent us from conquering any existing Carthaginian settlements.

Of course, should any of our settlements fall to them, I do not believe 10.8 would rule out reconquering them.

Conscript Fathers, I have not the time to write a full report, but Melite has been cleared of the Carthaginian army, and Orduba has been taken from the Thracians, thus completing our expansion to the Danube - now we need to secure the crossings on that River.

And with that, I hand over the day to day running of our Republic to First Consul Lucius Aemilius, who is advancing on Aquilia.

Why has this Senate turned into such a mass of warmongers? It saddens me to see this great Republic turned into nothing more than a band of squabbling men who want nothing more than personal glory. We are plunged from one great war into another with no end in sight at all. We are told that simply because we are in a state of war with an enemy, we must engage in all-out warfare to end it swiftly and decisively. Yet when the war is complete, we are told that another one must be immediately engaged in. Thus, we are always in the middle of some incredibly important conflict which honor demands that we win without delay.

I think several in here do not understand the meaning of the word honor. Honor involves doing what is right for the Republic even if it is not good for yourself. The Republic is suffering economically and militarily from these unending conflicts. We need an extended period of peace, even unilateral peace, to create better farming, roads and baths for our citizens and to strengthen our Legions so that all areas can be defended at the same time. To do any less is to ignore the needs of the Roman people.

OOC :
Steven Colbert says it so much better than I can in The Long War :

As long as we're at war, we're under attack,
As long as we're under attack, we're at war,
This gives us a lot of leeway...
...To fight everyone forever against everything.

:laugh4:

Letter to the senate, Autumn 257 BC

Conscript fathers,

The situation remains dire.

Tribune Gaius Rutilius is holding Melite where the Carthagians have landed another invasion force. Our fleet tried to prevent the landing, but were defeated and are now regrouping. All our warfleets are converging on Melite, while new 'light' fleets are being equipped to replace them.

I, praetor Lucius Aemilius, have recaptured Acquileia and proceeded to destroy all Thracian forces in Illyria with severe losses. The Thracians have launched another offensive with a massive army, led by their faction heir. Some of our troops were destroyed while we tried to regroup to counter this new threat. I have this army cornered and will engage it when word reaches me from the east.

In the east, two Thracian armies are marching on Ratiaria. I have decided to abandon Debeltos and will send tribune Numerius Aureolus to engage one of them, while praetor Tiberius Coruncanius engages the other one.

Glory to the Republic !
Praetor Lucius Aemilius

OCC : The Ptolemaic empire actually accepted Debeltos as a gift, but then I had to reload as I accidentily sent my co-consul alone in the fray, leaving his troops behind. After the reload, they wouldn't take it, hence the abandonment.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, the rider you sent to Praetor Coruncanius later arrived to brief me. Having reviewed his information, I share your gloomy assessment of our situation. The war with Thrace is proving more bitter than most of us realised during the mid-term debates.

On the matter of Debeltos, it is for the Consuls to dispense with as they like, but personally I would be loathe to surrender an inch of Roman territory. Our destiny is to control south-east Europe south of the Danube. If we abandon Debeltos to rebels now, we will have to pay a second blood price for it soon. I offer the First Consul an alternative proposal - send Legio V and I away from Debeltos, but hire a few mercenaries to keep order in the settlement for us in our absence.

I also would like to speak on behalf of two of my fellow Tribunes - Cornelius Saturninus (Wonderland) and Quintus Libo (Glaucus). I am sure they are restless governing Pella and Thessalonika. Surely the Republic has need of Lower House members actively leading our armies elsewhere? I notice that the First Consul's grandson, Servius Aemilius, is en route to Melite. However, I believe more Lower House generals might assist in the war on Thrace. Specifically, one might command in Switzerland and the other might replace Titus Vatinus, who has de facto returned to the Upper House. When the First Consul has driven out the Thracians from south of the Danube, we will still have a long frontier to defend and a few additional reliable commanders would make the task easier.

Finally, I would like to praise the foresight of the First Consul in constructing forts in Gaul for Augustus Verginius and Marcellus Aemilius. It is important for our Lower House generals to keep in the field, even when guarding the frontier. This will advance their own military careers and ultimately serve the Republic by providing it with more accomplished commanders.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

I fear we have indeed underestimated the Thracians. Send me against them Consul Aemilius, the Iberians will have to wait.

Senators,

I will attempt to send all lower house senators to a military command within one season, if they were not already on their way. Bear with me, as the distances to travel are quite long sometimes, and it might be some time before you see combat.

On the matter of Debeltos, I sympathize with your feelings, young Numerius, but there is strategy behind this decision. The threat of war with the Ptolemaic empire has been looming over us. Even if they can not reinforce easily, they have a strong military presence in Asia Minor. For us, reinforcing is just as difficult. Not just their troops, but especially their fleet is my concern at the moment. They are vastly superior to our own navies and we can barely hold our own against the Carthagians. If they joined in that war we will have a serious problem. If Debeltos rebels, which it will, I hope it will occupy the attention of the Ptolemaic empire long enough to improve our strategic position in Asia.
Nevertheless, I have considered hiring mercenaries, but there are none to be found. I will not break up your legion as it travels, as the Ptolemaic empire have a consular-sized army stationed nearby and it would be too risky.
I will give you the choice:
A) Remain in Debeltos with your legion.
B) Abandon Debeltos and attempt to intercept Thracian troops.
C) Abandon Debeltos and invade the Greek cities, but these also will be abandoned (unless we end up bordering them).
I will not leave a small garrison in a city I cannot defend strategically. Our neighbours would be too tempted to attack them and draw us into more wars, which we really cannot afford.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Consul, do you think there is a chance that Debeltos, if left un-garrisoned, might revolt to Ptolemaic rule instead of opting for independent, rebel status? If so, that will cause an immediate war with the Ptolemies. Do we know where their sympathies lie?

I am also rather isolated in the far SE corner of our republic, waiting for the Ptolomites to attack us, as has been foretold.

I would ask that the first Consul send my north with my legion to battle the Thracians, but I fear it is only my presence that is stopping an Egyptian attack and that as soon as I move out, they will strike.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, my scouts report that, while there are no mercenaries in Debeltos, just over the border, in Ptolemy's lands, there are half a dozen companies available: two Thracian infantry, two Thracian slingers, one Thracian light cavalry and one Thracian heavy cavalry. My preference, therefore, would be to use Legio V to try to intercept the Thracians but to hire this strong contingent of mercenaries and send them all back to garrison Debeltos. By setting taxes low and building shrines, we should be able to hold Debeltos without unrest in the absence of Legio V.

The cost would be steep - 5500 gold for the mercenaries. However, it would free up Legio V for campaign without surrendering Debeltos to rebels and having to capture it again. Moreover, given the demands of the war with Thracian, money spent on soldiers can scarcely be considered wasteful. The Thracian mercenaries are all good fighters. As Debeltos quietens, the mercenary cavalry could be transferred to the armies of the Co-Consul and Praetor Corcuncanius, who both lack a strong cavalry arm.

However, I am but an instrument of the will of the Senate and will abide by whatever decision the First Consul makes.

I am concerned over the losses we have suffered in the recent events with Thrace and I feel that all able commanders within the region should be carefully re-deployed until we can secure a strong frontier along the Danube. Perhaps spending some time to construct defensive fortifications at all river crossings directly bordering Thrace would be highly beneficial. While temporarily staffing these forts with our legions seems necessary, in the near future it may be wise to establish some small frontier garrisons that would act as the first line of defence against not only our Thracian neighbors, but all our hostile neighbors.

Another thing that concerns me is the composition of the recent Thracian army we have heard of through stories from the front. These Germanic mercenaries dealt heavy losses to our forces in the last engagement, and I feel we need to learn a much greater deal about these new foes before we make any brash decisions concerning outnumbered engagements with Thrace.

Senators,

I will reflect on the many good suggestions made by you. I must now organzie my forces for the coming battle (OCC : Shopping spree), but I have time to direct a few words as some fool has doubleparked in front of my horse.

The city of Debeltos was originally an independant (OCC: Rebel) city, and now that I have razed every building to the ground, it is likely to become independant once again when it rebels.

The costs of hiring so much mercenaries is indeed prohibitive, but as no new reinforcements are expected anytime in the near future, I am inclined to hire them, especially the cavalry, to reinforce Publius Pansa and Tiberius Coruncanius. I will, however, abandon Debeltos after all, unless Numerius Aureolus wants to remain there untill such a time when hostitilies with the Ptolemaic empire break out.

Building forts at the important river crossing is a sound suggestion. (OCC: I would however build them near the river crossings, not on top of them, as otherwise the AI can't cope and would try to go around the entire river, and that would be a bit silly in my opinion).

I agree with my co-consul that he seems rather stuck at the moment. The Ptolemaic empire has sizable forces at the border and I dare not move him. However, you are posted outside the city and so your military career is progressing.

The Germans can be considered the equivalent with our hastati cohorts at least. Usually, they are equipped with large shields and assegais, in addition to their other weapons. Generally they come in groups of 120 warriors. Due to their large numbers, they can inflct horrible slaughter with a rain of assegais before attacking. They also tend to use a demoralizing war cry, which instills fear in their enemies. In addition, there are heavy troops and beserkers, which are truly dangerous foes. Their support units are quite good as well, altough they lack good missile units. But as every german warrior is equipped with assegais, they do not need them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucjan

I am concerned over the losses we have suffered in the recent events with Thrace and I feel that all able commanders within the region should be carefully re-deployed until we can secure a strong frontier along the Danube. Perhaps spending some time to construct defensive fortifications at all river crossings directly bordering Thrace would be highly beneficial. While temporarily staffing these forts with our legions seems necessary, in the near future it may be wise to establish some small frontier garrisons that would act as the first line of defence against not only our Thracian neighbors, but all our hostile neighbors.

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A wise strategy Senator, and one that I began whilst I had control, unfortunately for a couple of reasons it was something that I barely began. Firstly for time reasons, I only had supreme command for a couple of seasons, but secondly because we quite simply do not have the troop numbers in that area to implement a system where all the crossings are defended by a fort. I agree that a small force holding the fort, with full strength legions in reserve, able to rush to whichever fort is under siege would be an ideal strategy, but it requires time, organisation and resources.

It seems Numerius Aereolus wishes to violate Senate law yet again. I shall refrain from the usual verbal attacks for it should be clear what my opinion of this man is by now. I will simply remind you all that Motion 10.1 indicates that Debeltos should be given away to a neutral nation, not kept as part of our territory. Investing any money in its safety at all is beyond foolish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Motion 10.1 indicates that Debeltos should be given away to a neutral nation, not kept as part of our territory. Investing any money in its safety at all is beyond foolish.

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Well, depending on where our current consul's Alliegence lies he may ,at his own risk, decide not to follow motion 10.1.

Now, It wouldn't be wise considering how much influence you have, Verginius, as our current consul(s) (backed by Numerius) have more influence than you do at the moment. So, they could very well get away with it...

They wouldn't even need to spend that much on getting the majority of influence behind them, you know

:balloon2:

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, I care not for what we do with Debeltos. It is a minor settlement, certainly no Byzantion. Yet, I believe that sooner or later - and probably sooner - we will be at war with Egypt. In such an event, I assume that we will wish to relieve her of her two settlements in Europe. This would leave Debeltos surrounded by our territory and hence surely a target for annexation. To have let it rebel will likely mean Legio V has to return there within a year and pay for its capture in blood again. Senator, I care not for Debeltos. But I do care for the welfare of my men and do not wish to see their lives pointlessly squandered on account of posturing in the Senate.

As to the issue of the legality of continuing to occupy Debeltos, let us recall the wording of motion 10.1:

Motion 10.1: This house authorizes the First Consul to sell or give away Debeltos upon its capture to any neutral nation.

The Senator is surely aware that motion 10.1 merely authorises us to sell or give away Debeltos - it does not instruct or mandate us to do so. It is merely giving the Consuls the power to dispose of it in that way. Such authorisation is required, following the controversy during the Senators own period of office when he gifted some Gaulish settlements to the Germans. Had motion 10.1 instructed or mandated us to do sell or gift Debeltos, I would not have seconded the motion. I cannot believe Senator Verginius, a respected lawyer, is unaware of this legal distinction. Indeed, the Senate record shows him highlighting it in an earlier controversy:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Senator Verginius

Fortunately, many in this Senate are also fools and do not know how to create effective legislation. I note with pleasure that Motion 6.13 merely authorises me to complete a Consular sized fleet. Why, thank you for the authorization. I assure you I shall not feel the need to exercise the power.

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So it can be seen, the Senator is well aware of the distinction between authorisation and instruction. The Consuls are empowered to gift or sell Debeltos, but need not feel the need to exercise the power.

Anyway, this discussion is moot. The Consuls have tried to sell or gift away Debeltos and not yet succeeded. They may continue to try, I do not object. However, until they are actually able to do so, I believe nothing in Motion 10.1 precludes us holding on to the settlement - even if it mandated a gift or sale, rather than authorised one. Indeed, if we are to give away or sell Debeltos we should certainly not abandon it to fall into rebel hands. For were we to lose it to a rebellion, we can scarcely gift or sell something that we no longer possess.

Conscript fathers, I believe the elder Senator Vatinius once told Aureolus that he had a little of the late Quintus in him. I believe he wants to take this one step further and emulate Quintus' achievements at Appolonia.

Himself and all of Legio V are sitting in a virtual hornets' nest; the only thing that have yet to arrive are the hornets! Senator Aureolus, if you truly care for the welfare of your men then you will get out of there before Ptolemy decides that he wants it!

May I remind you, Senators, that we originally took Debeltos for honor purposes - finishing off Macedon and the last killer of Amulius Coruncanius. Those have both been met. I no longer see any purpose in holding Debeltos aside from the fact that it's more land.

Senators, in the last interim session I proposed a motion that Debeltos was to be raided - sacked and then abandoned. Sadly it did not get the required amount of seconders, but look where we are now with it! It's time to think clearly and get out of that place, I don't care who rules it after us!

Marcellus, I must apologise for not backing your proposal. I was so focussed on avoiding having to go to Debeltos full stop that I missed your proposal which would have served as an adequate backup - although there is still the problem that if Ptolomy were to occupy the abandoned city, we would be at war with them.

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Conscript fathers, I believe the elder Senator Vatinius once told Aureolus that he had a little of the late Quintus in him. I believe he wants to take this one step further and emulate Quintus' achievements at Appolonia

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He wishes! The difference between Quintus and Numerius is that one was a noble Roman who did everything according to the mos maorium and achieved his greatest glory in his mature years. The other regards himself as a Roman Alexander and wishes to acrue as much glory to himself as early as possible. I doubt he will wait till he is 42 before attempting again to run for Consul...

*looks hard at Numerius*

Be careful, little Icarus, that you do not fly too close to the Sun.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Consul, I was not aware that you had razed Debeltos to the ground... in that case, and in considering Motion 10.1 which had also slipped my mind, there seems to be no other choice than to leave the city and let the people do with themselves as they will, or offer it to another nation to prevent an attack while it is still ours and defenseless. The money will be more wisely spent on our own legions and Republic.

On the matter of forts on our river borders, I support the idea but warn not to build them around any border other than the Thracian ones, as a weakly defended fort can be an easy target for a powerful nation like Egypt. They might not be able to resist attacking, then we would find ourselves in an unecessary war.

Senators, there's absolutely no merit in continuing to slander Numerius' good name any longer.

The General made a decision in occupying Debeltos, and razing it to the ground. It was a judgement call, whether it was a good one or a bad one only you decide.

Now I appreciate the delicacy of the current situation and would no more than any other man benefit from yet another war, but we cannot alter what has already happened, as that is the case we now need to decide upon what to do with the settlement. To give an overview of the mentioned options.

We could :

I ) continue the occupation.

II ) move out our forces, raise the taxes and let it rebel.

III ) move out our forces and gift it to another faction (tried this, apparently, without success.)

or

IV ) grant the settlement to Ptolemy, as a token of good-will. And relocate out forces stationed in Debeltos.

If I missed anything please say so.

Now I'm not of the opinion that Numerius has broken any law the senate has given him to obey, so I don't deem a trial or something of the like the just thing to do.

I deem we should hear Numerius out, and for the moment, give the General the benefit of the doubt...

:balloon2:

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: The destruction of the buildings in Debeltos was conducted by agents of the First Consul, not by me. The Co-Consul instructed me to leave the buildings in tact upon occupation, to make the settlement more attractive to potential buyers. I happily complied with this instruction, seeing no virtue in wanton vandalism of a property we are likely to inherit.

Senators, I submit that from Flavius Pacuvius's list, only options I and II are currently possible. We occupy Debeltos or we abandon it. If we can sell or gift it, all well and good, but both Consuls efforts in this respect have failed so we cannot assume it is possible.

As I have said before, I can see no merit in abandoning it - this is no Apollonia situation. Legio V and the Co-Consul's army between them can take down the two Egyptian settlements in Europe if it comes to war.

The cost of abandoning it is that inevitably, we will have to re-occupy it. Unless the Senate is happy to nurse a piratical sea-port within the bossom of its lands.

We have debated this too long. I am sure the First Consul has already made his decision. The only thing I hope is that he leaves Legio V free to move in the event of war with Ptolemy. This will require, if we do hold on to Debeltos, that we recruit a mercenary garrison and start to build shrines to pacify a people angered by our demolition of their holy places.

This debate over the fate of Debeltos is becoming an ever increasing burden on the operations of this senate. I would propose, seeing as that the original intention of this senate was to give the settlement away, that we abandon the city if we cannot now just give it away, wait outside the walls for its citizens to rebel, then remove our legion from the surrounding lands by ship.

If Debeltos is ever to become a Roman settlement in anything more than name, it must first be a profitable settlement connected to Rome. Right now it's a black eye surrounded by angry fists. It is not worth the effort.

My nephew speaks the truth. The only reason Ptolemy will go to war with us is because of Debeltos. If we abandon it, the chances of war with Ptolemy decrease significantly.

I know exactly what the Motion says and what is technically required by it. I do not fear that an improper decision would be made, as we have a great Consul in Lucius Aemilis. Regardless, we all know the intentions behind Motion 10.1 and we know what the debate was regarding its capture. Numerius Aureolus seems to have a habit of bending Senatorial procedure to his will. I urge all here to be wary of him in the years ahead.

As for Flavius Pacuvius I do not understand how you think I am at odds with the Consul. Luciues Aemilius has always had my full support and I trust him to serve the best interests of the Republic at all times. Indeed, the Aemilii family as a whole stands as a beacon of proper Roman virtues. The Republic could not be in better hands. I believe you have been duped by Numerius Aureolus if you believe he is a supporter of the Consuls, for he has specifically disobeyed Consular orders and openly lied to them. No, that man is no friend to anyone but himself.

Letter to the senate, spring 256 BC

Senators,

Much has come to pass.

The Thracians had launched a massive offensive and in a desperate battle south of Oduba we managed to come of victorious, but at a great cost in lives. Still, the Thracian offensive is halted for now and we are redeploying our troops.

In even more terrible news, the brave Gaius Rutilius has perished (sorry about that, Swordsmaster). He fought desperately on the beaches of Melite to stop the Carthagian invasion to no avail. He managed to defeat the first invasion, but then the Carthagians sent a massive army that outnumbered him three to one. Just before Servius Aemilius could arrive to aid him, Gaius Rutilius and his soldiers bravely died on the beaches of Melite. Sensing defeat was imminent, he ordered the citizens to torch the town and leave nothing of value to the Phoenicians.
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2567/carthage3vo6.jpg

Servius Aemilius has landed in Sicily to defend the island.

Our navy has regrouped and is closing in on the Carthagian fleet once more, with our best admiral in command.

Considering the recent legal debate about motions I have come to the conclusion that I will have to attack Byzantium whether I approve of it or not, as Motion 10.2 preceeds Motion 10.6. I have ordered Debeltos abandoned and Numerius Aureolus is about to storm the walls of Byzantium.

News came just now that the Ptolemaic empire have declared war on us, without citing a reason. Accordingly, I have ordered Tiberius Coruncanius and Publius Pansa to attack their towns in Asia. They will fight these battles after Byzantium is captured. Hopefully, we will be able to recapture Debeltos before it rebels.

We are training a Consular Army to be used as the senate wishes by the next consul(s), but we strongly recommend it is used to invade Carthage itself, as we are unlikely to prevail at sea, especially as the Ptolemaic empire is terrorizing our seas as well now.

We have managed to form an alliance with the Germans, and they have even promised support against the Thracians. We are still on friendly terms with the Iberians. Gaul has been destroyed.

In spite of hot words exchanged on the senate floor, I hope you will offer prayers for all our commanders, for their succes in the battles ahead.

Praetor Lucius Aemilius

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Oh my... Consul Aemilius, firstly my congradulations to you for the hard earned victory over the Thracians, and my condolences for all the lives lost at the battle. Also, my sympathies go out to the Rutilius family for the loss of their son at Melite. It seems I must for the time being, put aside all my previous notions about Iberia as much more pressing matters present themselves. However, now I would like to suggest an alliance with the Iberians as a necessary means of protecting our western front. I urge the Consul to immediately pursue this action. I can only hope I will be deployed into military action soon Consul, as I am getting restless and my time and skills are being wasted here.

Cornelius Saturninus,

I have tried to come to an agreement with the Iberians several times and they are still on friendly terms with us, but have refused an alliance. At the moment we have a financial agreement, whereby they lended us 500+ dinarii in exchange for 4 tributes of 100 dinarii. Clearly, a nice gesture to our profit, with the added benefit that an attack on us would see the loss of their tributes.
You and Quintus Libo are almost at Oduba, where you will relieve me of defense of the Danube. You are posed to attack a Thracian army next turn (which will be monday probably).
As the region lacks roads, your progress has been slow. Unfortunately, there is only one legion left for you both untill reinforcements arrive (which will take quite some time). I will give you command of this legion and I will send Quintus Libo to take over command of the legion at Luvavum, where another Thracian army is wandering about. I myself will return to Rome if possible and gather another legion as Oduba really needs two legions to be defended well.
Flavius Pacuvius is on his way to Cispine Gaul to take command there.

Well, in some ways, it comes as a relief to me that we are now at war with Ptolomy - the kind of relief one has after eating too much rich food and wine at a feast. One knows they need to be sick, but several hours may be spent groaning with the stomach pains, knowing what is needed, waiting for ones body (an agent we have little control over) to get round to doing it. When one finally spews it all up, the relief is blessed.

At the very least it allows us to have defendable borders, though I worry about the 2 narrow points at either end of the Sea of Marmara - easy crossing points that will need to be vigourously defended. And it ends the argument over Debeltos and Byzantion. Both are now within the Roman sphere and need to be defended.

As for Thrace, I had not realised what ferocious warriors this particular brand of Barbarians are. I am coming to the conclusion that trying to hold the Danube against them is maybe not the wisest strategy long-term. For when will they ever stop sending their fearsome hordes against us? Will they ever accept peace? I doubt it. I believe occupation and enslavement are the only way to secure our lands from their threat.

Finally, I must give my warmest congratulations to the First Consul for concluding an alliance with the Germans. What are the state of their diplomatic affairs? Are they still at war with Iberia?

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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi

As for Thrace, I had not realised what ferocious warriors this particular brand of Barbarians are. I am coming to the conclusion that trying to hold the Danube against them is maybe not the wisest strategy long-term. For when will they ever stop sending their fearsome hordes against us? Will they ever accept peace? I doubt it. I believe occupation and enslavement are the only way to secure our lands from their threat.

Finally, I must give my warmest congratulations to the First Consul for concluding an alliance with the Germans. What are the state of their diplomatic affairs? Are they still at war with Iberia?

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The Germans remain at war with Iberia, and are allies with the kingdom of Armenia. I intend to have Quintus Libo capture the Thracian settlement north of Luvavum (if you agree, of course) and give it to the Germans. The Thracians can be ferocious opponents, but I would advise against expanding our border beyond the Danube. Our supply situation will become even more ghastly than it already is, and we will lack a natural border. Anyhow, The Thracians have been severely chastised by now, and I hope to leave them with just three cities at the end of our consulship. That should make them less of a threat to us. Perhaps in the distant future the conquest of Dacia north of the river Danube would be wise, but I really feel we need to do much more work in our development before we should mount such an expedition.
Unfortunately, the Sarmatians are allies of the kingdom of Thrace, but not at war with us. I intend to buy their friendship next season if it is not too expensive (or rather, I was hoping you would).

OCC: Sarmatians : Declare war on our enemies Thrace and offer, say, 2000 gold. Worth a try.

They have been destroyed! GAUL IS NO MORE! Despite the news from Ptolemy and Cartage, this is a day for celebration! I hearby proclaim a public feast in the forum and five days of games in the arena, entirely funded from my own estate. Let the city rejoice in the destruction of our oldest and most vile enemy! This is a historic day!

It is indeed a holy day when the only nation ever to sack Roma vanishes from the face of the earth. I will make the appropriate sacrifices to Romulus, Jupiter and Mars. Our vengeance was long in coming, but it tastes all the sweeter for that.

Well, normally I don't drink... but one occasion won't hurt. Anything to take my mind off where I'm at right now.

:medievalcheers: