Burn, baby burn

(Sorry, my hyperlink buttons aren't ~:( )
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...WS01/608220378
I know this might need a little background for our non-American orgahs. But a regularly occurring political fight that happens here in the USA is the whole flag burning issue.

Since we don't have a constitutional monarchy, with a person acting as the symbol of the country, we imbue the flag with more pride and sentiment then most nations. Note, this isn't a requirement, it's just the way things have developed over here.

Well, the love of the flag runs right into first ammendment rights. Do you have the right to completely disrespect your country's symbol? It might seem a bit funny to you folks, but imagine somebody sptting in Q-Lizzie's face. Yes, many Americans view it an appropriate parallel (though I don't).

So, a social studies teacher (civics, history, etc) was trying to teach his class about free speech and burned two flags. Boom, he was removed from his position. Personally, I think he had every right to do this. His point wasn't to encourage his students to burn the flag, it was to demonstrate the bounds of free spech. I agree that teachers shouldn't be imparting their own personal political philosophies, especially extreme ones, on their students. But students do have a right to learn basic tenets of our Constitution.

Let the blood flow....

Feh, I'm a Euro ... don't really care about flags over here, partly because it has been used as a political statement for centuries so much that we've kinda gotten used to it.

There is little offense in burning a flag, it can be a statement, or it can be done to properly dispose of one, but it's shouldn't be a great deal.

What you Amercians see in a colorful piece of cloth is beyond me.

I can see removing the teacher for safety reasons, but not for political outrage. Whenever I see flag-burning footage from the Middle East or some other US-hating region, I always think, "You silly people, we can do that here as well. Is that all you've got? Oh, and try not to set yourself on fire." It trivializes the act. And the fact that China makes the majority of US flags reduces the outrage even more.

Regarding an amendment against flag burning, constitutional amendments should always limit what the government can do, not limit what the people can do.

errr....isn´t the flag just a symbol that represents the freedom to....burn the flag if you want to?

just a crazy idea I had....:book:

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Originally Posted by drone

China makes the majority of US flags reduces the outrage even more..

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...honestly?

How very rude of us, burning things that Chinese sweatshop-workers ruined their very lives slaving for. How very consumer-oriented, how very careless, how ignorant, how selfish. That, sir, is one heartless teacher to burn the precious flags! Think of the children of the Chinaman, how his children toil, how his children work, for you to burn your freedom away!

:balloon2: [/Dramatics]

He burned his national flag. OMG
In Poland it's a serious crime.
National flag - i repeat National not coutry - represent all nation and it's osmething that unite people into nation.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

...

...honestly?

How very rude of us, burning things that Chinese sweatshop-workers ruined their very lives slaving for. How very consumer-oriented, how very careless, how ignorant, how selfish. That, sir, is one heartless teacher to burn the precious flags! Think of the children of the Chinaman, how his children toil, how his children work, for you to burn your freedom away!

:balloon2: [/Dramatics]

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Pretty sure. I saw some news article not too long after 9/11. Everybody in the country was buying up US flags, and the supply was getting low. The Chinese flag factory was running 3 shifts and still couldn't meet demand. This was after the EP-3 crisis, but the factory workers seemed pretty happy about the business we were throwing their way. Doesn't surprise me, wouldn't be very cost effective to make them here.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

He burned his national flag. OMG
In Poland it's a serious crime.
National flag - i repeat National not coutry - represent all nation and it's osmething that unite people into nation.

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Hate to point it out here, chap, but the US is a state, not a nation, their national identity amounts to we live here, and we like our way of life. They are not a nation, Poland is a nation, France is a nation ... the US, Canada, Australia and others are not ... they are states.

And burning a flag always sends a strong message, and should not be a crime ... after all, one has the freedom to voice his displeasure over the way things are going, and when things are bad enough, then you send a particularly strong message, like burning a flag.

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Originally Posted by Keba

Hate to point it out here, chap, but the US is a state, not a nation, their national identity amounts to we live here, and we like our way of life. They are not a nation, Poland is a nation, France is a nation ... the US, Canada, Australia and others are not ... they are states.

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You dont spend much time here do you? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

So, a social studies teacher (civics, history, etc) was trying to teach his class about free speech and burned two flags. Boom, he was removed from his position. Personally, I think he had every right to do this. His point wasn't to encourage his students to burn the flag, it was to demonstrate the bounds of free spech. I agree that teachers shouldn't be imparting their own personal political philosophies, especially extreme ones, on their students. But students do have a right to learn basic tenets of our Constitution.

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Well Don, just because someone is allowed to do something which completely offensive to most Americans doesnt mean they should do it in a classroom. And clearly many students and even more parents were very offended by the act. Imagine all the unsavory things a teacher could do in a classroom that are "technically" legal, but would be very inappropriate in a classroom setting.

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Originally Posted by Keba

Hate to point it out here, chap, but the US is a state, not a nation, their national identity amounts to we live here, and we like our way of life. They are not a nation, Poland is a nation, France is a nation ... the US, Canada, Australia and others are not ... they are states.

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Hate to point it out to you here chap - but your incorrect. LOL.... You might want to look at the definition of state, nation, and nation state. You might just learn a thing or two.

Here is some help from Webster's

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Originally Posted by Webster's

Main Entry: na·tion
Pronunciation: 'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English nacioun, from Anglo-French naciun, from Latin nation-, natio birth, race, nation, from nasci to be born; akin to Latin gignere to beget -- more at KIN
1 a (1) : NATIONALITY 5a (2) : a politically organized nationality (3) : a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire -- Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)> b : a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c : a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status
2 archaic : GROUP, AGGREGATION
3 : a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)

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When one attempts to define nation the way you have attempt, they find themselve looking at the wrong side of a generalization. Care to guess how many ethnic groupings are in the nation of France? Or how about the number of ethnic people in the Nation of Italy?

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And burning a flag always sends a strong message, and should not be a crime ... after all, one has the freedom to voice his displeasure over the way things are going, and when things are bad enough, then you send a particularly strong message, like burning a flag.

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Yes indeed - Freedom of Speech does allow for the burning of the national flag.

Just a quick note here:

As a substitute teacher, I was required to sign and give an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. It was kind of similar to my military oath. It is a government position, and I believe all government employees are required to give some kind of oath, though I could be wrong.

If freedom of speech was illegal I would have burnt it. Since then it would have been the right and brave thing to do in leading your students to choose freedom above dictatorship.

Since it is legal then I have more respect for what that flag represents. So out of respect I wouldn't burn it, also since it is legal there is nothing brave in the ability to burn the flag.

However I would also like to show my students that it is the principals that the flag represents that are important and not the symbol. When people start placing a symbol above people and principles there is something fundamentally wrong. So I would probably show other flags that represent other nations with similar freedoms, the actual principles that make the flag so important, and structure the class to increase their ability to think for themselves since one of the principles is freedom and it's value is proportional to the ability to think and act on it.

I would get my class to focus on the reality more then the symbology. That way they could act as principle centered individuals and be more appreciative of what the symbol means and live up to those principles and symbology. Symbologys greatest use is as a shorthand expression, that use is diluted if people don't understand the indepth version of what it represents. Symbols are Cliff notes, they ain't that deep and meaningful without a fuller understanding.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Hate to point it out to you here chap - but your incorrect. LOL.... You might want to look at the definition of state, nation, and nation state. You might just learn a thing or two.

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Sorry about that, then. Been using the wrong definitions ... Smith's definition of an ethnical identity as national identity to be precise. Personally never really considered territorial identity as a form of a national one, which happens to be the one that the US falls into.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

You dont spend much time here do you? :laugh4:

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I spend enough ... but I usually can't resist provoking people into causing these kind of situations. Of course, this wasn't exactly an intentional provokation, or I would have phrased it better.:sweatdrop:

Your definately allowed to do it so why the hell not. Especially in a civics/History class where people are supposed to learn about the Constitution and its implications.

Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).

Then again, actually exercising you Constitutional rights has never really gone down well in the US, except when it come to owning guns.
So maybe the lesson of that class was: I you f**k with the Man you get beat down. So don't!

My view on this: the idea of freedom is so holy in the USA that freedom is taken away to protect it.

Do they hate freedom? :beam:

Jeez, if we should put everybody in jail who destroy as symbol of somthing they own...
Burning a flag or a king/queen/president are two different things. Not because the president/k./Q. is more of symbol. No theya re HUMANS, they have FEELINGS,...

Why should people love their flag, why can't they burn it if they want to? It will not spread a poisonous gass cloud,... It's just a flag they own. It's silly. If you burn someone else's flag okay, if you proud on your country, okay. But why punsih someone for burning his flag?

Tss country of free. right. Sure. And It's a democracy too I guess? ofcourse. Can't burn flags when you want to... tss what's nect prohibit to eat american flag looking pies on the national holiday? pfff... silly chinese. ~;)

Seems like the lesson was a failure, though. He was trying to show his class that in America you are free to express your views and the school authorities showed the class it is not quite that simple.

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Originally Posted by Gertgregoor

Jeez, if we should put everybody in jail who destroy as symbol of somthing they own...
Burning a flag or a king/queen/president are two different things. Not because the president/k./Q. is more of symbol. No theya re HUMANS, they have FEELINGS,...

Why should people love their flag, why can't they burn it if they want to? It will not spread a poisonous gass cloud,... It's just a flag they own. It's silly. If you burn someone else's flag okay, if you proud on your country, okay. But why punsih someone for burning his flag?

Tss country of free. right. Sure. And It's a democracy too I guess? ofcourse. Can't burn flags when you want to... tss what's nect prohibit to eat american flag looking pies on the national holiday? pfff... silly chinese. ~;)

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:laugh4:

But I agree 100 % with GG on this matter.

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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester

Seems like the lesson was a failure, though. He was trying to show his class that in America you are free to express your views and the school authorities showed the class it is not quite that simple.

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I disagree. The fact that the teacher illustrated that the letter of the law means his action was legal whilst he can still be punished is an extremely good lesson that is rarely better illustrated.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I disagree. The fact that the teacher illustrated that the letter of the law means his action was legal whilst he can still be punished is an extremely good lesson that is rarely better illustrated.

~:smoking:

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Very true. Just because speech is Constitutionally protected, it doesnt mean that what you say has no consequences. It may be legal for a teacher to say 'I hate Jews', but that doesnt make it appropriate classroom fodder.

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I disagree. The fact that the teacher illustrated that the letter of the law means his action was legal whilst he can still be punished is an extremely good lesson that is rarely better illustrated.

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Also, radio stations are fined for profane language even though obscenity, which is not profanity, is the only sort of speech that may be made illegal. Technically, they could never stop them from airing profanity if they kept paying the fines. If only I had the money to do that.:laugh4:


As to the question, I don't care about the impressionable minds of stupid children. He certainly had the right to burn the flag, but the community doesn't have to put up w/ it and the parents should certainly have some say in what their children are taught, and so they can fire him, although I think that it just shows that they are also impressionable idiots. So, if the qualifier was not there, then I would've voted 'no'.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I disagree. The fact that the teacher illustrated that the letter of the law means his action was legal whilst he can still be punished is an extremely good lesson that is rarely better illustrated.

~:smoking:

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Whilst good teachers are learning all the time, it is better not to learn at the expense of losing your job.

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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester

Whilst good teachers are learning all the time, it is better not to learn at the expense of losing your job.

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I disagree totally with that attitude. Might as well be a serf. I would much rather take the job where I can make mistakes and learn rather then be treated like a resource number. If what I did endangered lives then I would expect to be reprimanded for it.

It is even worse in the context of the job of a teacher. A teacher who is to afraid to learn is not going to be the type of person I want teaching my kids more so if they are supposed to be teaching a civics class in freedom and responsibility. Imagine teaching kids to hate learning and freedom... sounds like a Cold war communist country not a first world democratic one.

isnt stopping one from expressing their opinion-in this case, flag burning-violate the US rule of free speech?

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Originally Posted by Hannibal99

isnt stopping one from expressing their opinion-in this case, flag burning-violate the US rule of free speech?

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No one is stopping him from expressing his opinion. The problem is that he performed a very offensive act (particularly for a school near a military base with many military families) in the classroom. Like I said, if he wants to be offensive- he's free to doso. But, he shouldnt be suprised if there are consequences for doing it in front of a classroom full of children.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

But, he shouldnt be suprised if there are consequences for doing it in front of a classroom full of children.

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Freedom to choose, and being responsibile for ones choices is the way adulthood should be.

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I disagree totally with that attitude. Might as well be a serf. I would much rather take the job where I can make mistakes and learn rather then be treated like a resource number. If what I did endangered lives then I would expect to be reprimanded for it.

It is even worse in the context of the job of a teacher. A teacher who is to afraid to learn is not going to be the type of person I want teaching my kids more so if they are supposed to be teaching a civics class in freedom and responsibility. Imagine teaching kids to hate learning and freedom... sounds like a Cold war communist country not a first world democratic one.

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I think you have read something in to my post that is not there. The teacher in this case has tried to grab the class's attention by doing something niave and crass. He knew that he was allowed to do it constitutionally but failed to consider that, because many would see it a offensive, it might put is job in jeapordy. He, and his class, have learnt an important lesson, but not the one he thought he was teaching. Like you, I want my children to be taught by teachers who are ready to learn and value freedom, but I can do without them being taught by those who are foolish, insensitive and sensationalist. Do you really want your children taught by someone who does not realise that actions have consequences other than legal ones?

I think the school authorities over-reacted. It would have been much better to have a stern word with him and tell him to think more carefully in future. I don't have a problem with flag-burning, but I know that it will upset some people, parents and children, and I condemn the actions of this teacher. The upset will detract from what the lesson is really about and whilst individuals in society are free to be offensive (whithin limits), teachers should be sensitive to the feelings of students, parents and colleagues. However that is a long way from advocating teaching kids to hate learning and freedom and advocating lessons be like those in Cold War communist schools.

I think we might be dancing around the same maypole.

I would have fired the guy for being foolish, but I would not fire people if they are making a real attempt to learn.

Indeed not. In fact with teachers it is the other way round. I know a few teachers I would like to be fired because they refuse to learn.

You can't expect that much from economics teachers, they are like accounting teachers without the personality or home economics teachers but without the nice cookies. :laugh4:

Well, flag burnings aside...

wait, you're not supposed to burn ANYTHING inside class!!!! :burn:

good choice on dismissing that teacher, Although I said that on the safety reasons...
think for a bit if children start to play with fire "because their teacher does it too". They're still 7th graders, for sake's sake!


now for the flag burning :
The act of burning itself should'nt be penalised, since it's the hatred that made people burn flags that make it seem offensive to them...
Putting it the other way, It's okay to burn things at whim, as long as it's yours..

I despise the idea of it but it is in the 1st amendment as freedom of speech. So I see no argument at all for burning it.

As long as it was included in his class syllabus that was approved by the school board and handed out for all parents to be aware of. ~D

Our fricking kids don’t know how to find Iraq on a map or to name the Supreme Court justices but it is more important for this teacher to burn a flag. If it were up to me I would draw a circle on the chalk board and make him stay there with his nose in it until he agreed to get back to work.

Grumble idiot teachers grumble tax dollars at work grumble

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Originally Posted by ceasar010

I despise the idea of it but it is in the 1st amendment as freedom of speech. So I see no argument at all for burning it.

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In the above quote I meant, I see no argument for banning it.:juggle2:

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

Our fricking kids don’t know how to find Iraq on a map or to name the Supreme Court justices but it is more important for this teacher to burn a flag.

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You make a very valid point here (although it might not have been what you meant): freedom of speech is only worthwhile if you know what you're talking about. Freedom of speech is closely tied with the rights of the free press and the resulting flow of information. Freedom of speech has unfortunately been degraded to fake child pornography, flag burnings, KKK meetings and whatnot. It would probably be better to show these kids WHY freedom of speech is important, not showing what cool stuff you can get away with.

Still, if he gets kicked out for burning a flag, what is left of that free speech ? Of course, being kicked out for burning stuff in a class would make sense...

I think i am not understanding importance of flag to US people. :inquisitive:
But teacher did some thing to provoke and get pupils thinking, and it works!!!
:laugh4:

May be it was too "bad taste" considering sensibility, may be teacher thinking too much "i am like really special person like teacher in Dead Poet Society or some other movie and changing lives forever".:embarassed: