Early TW days

hi all,

Just a little reminiscence and then a question.

When Shogun was in development, I remember spending hours at the website, reading everything (there was no .Org or anything else at the time), listening to the hauntingly beautiful music, learning everything I could about this faraway place called the Sengoku Jidai.

Mostly, I was drawn to it because of the absolutely amazing atmosphere. It was as if they were able to resurrect the time period and package it.

I haven't had the same experience since, and have asked myself how they did it many, many times. I still don't know. Perhaps what I need to do is go get the Eras collection so I can dive into that again and take note... though the anticipation provided by the website in those days was a major factor.

Anyway, what I'm wondering is if anyone else had this same experience of being drawn in and immersed, and why. Was it the music? the throne room? the lonely and wild landscapes? etc?

I only started playing Shogun long after its release, when it had been repackaged by Sold Out, however I know what you're on about. I think the main draw is the almost totally original setting and the excellent music. I think that sound is probably the most important factor in any game. The Thief games would be nothing without the eery music and the same applies to Shogun. Also another factor that makes it, for me, more preferable to the later Total War Games, is its retro board game feel. The graphics by todays standards aren't anything special yet they make it seem like i'm playing a proper table top war game. Too many games these days go for all out graphics and only a pinch of realism and strategy, whilst completely ignoring the importance of sound and atmosphere. Shogun is so good because it tcks every box and, because of this, it is still highly playable more than half a decade after its release.

I think it was partially because the way they built up the anticipation was so masterfully done. When that original "slide"-type trailer (which sadly has since been lost to the internet netherworld) was released on the original website, I was never so blown away by a game in my entire life--I had honest-to-god goosebumps watching that trailer for the first time. The images of thousands of men in combat, the sounds of clashing metal, the haunting & exotic music (and I definitely agree the music was hugely important)..... [sigh] It was the first time in my life that I'd felt a true, genuine need for a game; I simply had to have it!

Shogun was one of the very few instances where the experience of playing the game actually measured up to my expectations. In fact, I would say it *exceeded* my expectations, so much did I enjoy it. It has tremendous atmosphere--more than any other game I've ever played, including Medieval (which for me is high praise indeed). Sure, there were other features it could've included (many of which were incorporated into the later TW games), which as a result some people found it to be overly simplistic. I myself, however, found Shogun's simplicity to be one if its most beautiful and compelling features--an excellent example of when "less is more".

In addition, Shogun was truly unique. Until the time of its release, there was simply no PC game like it. Some have compared it to other titles that came before it--Lords of the Realm II is a popular comparison (and certainly a fun game in its own right)--but even it only bore a vague resemblance to its distant (and infinitely superior) cousin released three years after it. (I believe LotR II came out in 1997.) Shogun really was groundbreaking--and in a way that worked. CA took some chances, broke a lot of rules; and remarkably it all paid off. When the game appeared on store shelves, they had initiated a revolution in PC strategy games--even if they didn't know it yet. :2thumbsup:

You've all touched on very good points. I can think of a couple of more:

1) The mini movies at key points, most notably the assassin movies.

2) The weather. In any TW game since STW, I don't recall that feeling on the battlefield of stumbling blindly through a heavy fog trying to locate the enemy. Same holds for the heavy snow storms which had the added effect of tiring your men. Weather was a key component of the battlefields of STW and have for the most part been eliminated in the later games.

3) The strong ties with Sun Tzu's The Art of War. From the birds circling over a forest to hint at the presence of an ambush to defending those majestic mountains of Shinano, you could see the hand of Sun Tzu in the game.

4) The voice acting of STW still is the best of the whole TW series. The voices sounded authentic and natural. This added a lot to the immersion factor.

5) I think for many of us, our knowledge of the history of Japan was minimal at best. Thus the game has this sense of mystical wonder at the ways of the Japanese warrior, the culture, the clans and the new geography as we discovered this land so beautifully protrayed in the game.

Thanks for sparking the remembrance of these wonderful memories Tamur. :bow:

For me, it was that intro video for the old .com site. Some guy giving a speech about how his father had carried the sword in peace and now he carried it in war. Gave me chills. And then there were those nift animations of the No-dachi the CA and the arq.

I've always thought video/computer games are stupid and I still do. The original Shogun was essentially my introduction to computer games.

1) The balance - (just don't use elite units such was Warrior Monks, Heavy Cavalry or Horse archers and limit yourself to 1 or 2 Yari Cavalry).

Batttle Map - Try extricating an enemy entrenched in a steep hillside. In defense, troop formation and variety actually matter since any point of your line can actually break easily.

Campaign Map - The economy was very tight unlike MTW or RTW. In MTW, after 100 years, you have 66 provinces all teched-up.

2) The Weather - Rain, fog, blizzard. Organize and fight with your army pretty much blind.

3) Music and marching - You march your army to this fantastic music all the while knowing the enemy reside over those hills, often times hiding.

4) Assassination videos - Great videos. And the assassination actually counts in the game.

5) Ambush - You can ambush your enemy by dividing your army and hiding them in the forest. The AI does this too.

6) Seasonal turns/Good pacing - Four turns per year and structures takes a long time to build. Although the game is basically way over before you can even begin to train Geishas, they take, what 16 turns to recruit?

7) Throne Room - Although just an aesthetic addition, the throne room added a lot to the atmosphere. For example getting your emissary's head in a basket :laugh4: or receiving foreign traders or 'advice' from your counsel.

8) Art - The art blends with the computer graphics. Although they seemed to have copped the art from various sources.

9) Battlefield - The sprites in MTW got bigger or the battlefield shrunk. Either way Shogun has a relatively superior landscape. Lots or room to maneuver and positioning is very important.

Secondly, how many times do you have to find your enemy in Shogun? In MTW or RTW, the battle starts and enemy is right in front of you.

Or better yet - whenever defending - anticipate during initial deployment where the enemy may go based on the landscape. Divide your army thinking the enemy will go through this crevice in the middle. Then the AI marches all the way to the huge hill and to surprise one side and you have to rush the other half back.

10) Bridges - Try fighting your way through those perilous, narrow bridges. Although there are some exploits. Assaulting river provinces are the most dreadful :sweatdrop:

There's probably a lot more that I've missed.

It's great to have my memory sparked to life by your comments, everyone. A sincere thanks to you four (edit, five now!)

How many times my poor troops stumbled blindly through the rain and fog to find the enemy 30 metres away... I had completely forgotten how blinding it was. I haven't had to struggle like that since, well, since Shogun stopped working on my 2000 machine. And the crows! I can hear them calling again. Nature played a very vital role in the game.

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I think for many of us, our knowledge of the history of Japan was minimal at best. Thus the game has this sense of mystical wonder at the ways of the Japanese warrior, the culture, the clans and the new geography as we discovered this land so beautifully protrayed in the game.

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Perfectly said Gregoshi. I think this was the defining element for me. Back then I felt as if I had discovered something that no one else knew about, and held words like bushido and Tokugawa and daimyo as personal treasures only given out to either Japanese friends who were direct inheritors of this history and tradition, or other friends who showed themselves "worthy" of such knowledge. Funny to think of now, but very true.

Currently in the TW universe, of course, the marketing people are happy to claim that tens of thousands of copies of the game get sold instantly when the game comes out, that the game is accessible to the most novice user, etc etc. Though this makes the masses want to buy the game (and of course funds the developers), it simply points out that the small and precious world I knew in Shogun isn't coming back in the TW series.

Sobering trip down memory lane.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

For me, it was that intro video for the old .com site. Some guy giving a speech about how his father had carried the sword in peace and now he carried it in war. Gave me chills. And then there were those nift animations of the No-dachi the CA and the arq.

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That's exactly the trailer (although I don't know if it could truly be called that) I was referring to. The narrator spoke of how his neighors were now his enemies, etc. (I still wish I could find it and save it to my computer!) Never before had I been so excited about a game, and looking forward to playing it.

@Gregoshi: I agree with everything you've said, particularly the weather and voicework. The weather really lended a lot of realism and atmosphere to the battles. Creeping your way through the fog while searching for the enemy really got my heartrate going! It was stuff like that that really kept me on the edge of my seat. As per the voicework, you had to love it when the narrator would comment on how the general (yours or the enemy's) was killed or running away. Even the screams of the men as they fought and died sounded real. All that definitely upped the immersion factor.

It's also worth mentioning (although it's probably unnecessary for those of us who are familiar with Shogun) how marvelous the AI was. Not that it was perfect, of course--its actions on the campaign map sometimes seemed puzzling at best, and there were flaws in the combat AI if you knew what to look for. Even given that, however, it still provided the most challenging computer opponents I've ever faced in a game to date. I never came across a clan that was a pushover, and only a few of my victories came relatively easy to me. (And I never played on higher than Hard, either!)

Another thing that I should've mentioned is the seasonal turns. I loved that it affected the type of weather you were likely to fight in, and how it also forced you to budget your money carefully over the course of year. It was a very nice touch of extra realism that I appreciated.

EDIT: Heh, Quietus already beat me to it. :bow:

There's no question that Shogun had the best atmosphere of the series. The music was hauntingly beautiful, and the whole game reeked of the care and attention CA had lavished on it - a real labour of love. I love the music in Medieval, but STW definately has the edge in overall ambience.

And those winter battles, I felt tired just watching my men slog through the snow, and that fog was definately wonderfully blinding.

I remember hearing about STW - I came to it rather late - and asking on the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical usenet whether it was too good to be true. What I'd heard of the real time battles and the turn-based campaign map just sounded implausibly good. This was at a time when turn-based wargames with hexagon maps were still ruling the roost - PG, SP, TOAW, EF etc. I probably came to it rather late because it sounded like something sold by a dodgy double glazing salesman - just too good a deal.

It took a lot of time for some people - the war-historical usenet group, for example - to realise it was the real deal. I think they were put off by the civ-style building aspects and the geishas (STWs equivalent of the flaming pigs or cannon-elephants). It was probably only with MTW that people realised that under the hood there was a battlefield model that arguably was superior to any other computer game or indeed tabletop wargame.

STW did have great atmosphere, but for me it was the battles that did it. That combination of "realistic" modelling - lots of combat factors, morale modifiers etc - plus the excitement and pace of real time. I still remember the hidden rebel warrior monks at Yammato pouring out of a wood into the flank of my advancing army and cutting it to pieces. I could not react fast enough. That kind of thing could never happen in a standard turn-based hex-based wargame. Nor would you experience it in the same visceral way if it did.

Man, with all this reminiscing about Shogun, I had to go fire it up last night. It's been a while since I played, though, so I wussed out and went with the Hojo--I always liked their cheap castle construction. ~D

I know what you mean Martok. I thought about reinstalling it and giving it another whirl. Yes, for shame that I ever uninstalled it. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

I know what you mean Martok. I thought about reinstalling it and giving it another whirl. Yes, for shame that I ever uninstalled it. :shame:

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For shame, Gregoshi. For that, you should drop and give me twenty! (No, I have no idea why I'm suddenly channeling my old gym teacher.) ~;p

I was playing shogun from day one. In fact i had shogun before I had an internet connection! :embarassed: I remember seeing a review on a TV program about pc games late at night. I can't remember what it was called, but it was presented by two women and was on Channel 4 I think It covered the usual playstation type of stuff as well as the odd PC game towards the end. I recall seeing the 3D battlefields and the little Pagoda type structures and armies of Samurai, and was awed. I just knew I had to buy this game. I can remember my first time doing the tutorial where you have to wear down the Yari Samurai enough to take them on with your archers in melee and losing badly every time, until eventually I cracked it! That felt good.

I agree with most of the posts above. STW had all important atmosphere and ambience, but above all else it had class.

Don't forget the Japanese language used on the battlefield. The sound effects were very well done as well. The thunder and lightning was excellent as was the howling wind and sound of rain storms. Smoke from the guns billowed up and away in the direction the wind was blowing.

I agree. :yes:
Playing a game in heavy rain with thunderstorm and lightning is still one of the best experiences I ever had with a game.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

Don't forget the Japanese language used on the battlefield.

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Or on the campaign map.

I was playing once during a lunchtime and was playing with all Japanese voiceovers. At a turn start the voiceover for "My lord, you have a son!" came on except in Japanese, and I had my speakers up far too loud. A co-worker who had lived in Japan for several years came into my room laughing his head off. He said the accent was wonderful but very energetic ~:)

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

Don't forget the Japanese language used on the battlefield. .

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Originally Posted by Tamur

Or on the campaign map.

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Or in the Throne Room. ~:)

Speaking of which, I have a somewhat off-topic question. (Bear in mind that it's been a while since I'd played Shogun for long stretches at a time, hence why I can't remember the answer!) While playing my Hojo campaign this last week, I've noticed that whenever an emissary arrived offering peace/alliance, I only get the choice of accepting or declining the offer.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure I used to have the choice of executing the emissary as well. (Goodness knows my enemies get to avail themselves of this option often enough when dealing with my emissaries--Takeda in particular seems to be fond of sending their heads back to me in a sack.) I'm playing Warlord Edition, which I have a hunch removed the option to execute opponents' emissaries (where as the original STW still has this option). Am I correct in suspecting this?

I'm pretty sure that has never been an option, but bear it mind that it's been a long while since I've played STW without MI installed. so you could be right about WE/MI removing it.

I do have a vague memory of that option. And of the AI doing it to my emissary too. :skull:

I was also late in getting Shogun - it was a bargin - at a time when I was very "green" with computer games and had only ever played things like Brood Wars or C&C.

I was a bit nervous that it might have been too complex for me but how wrong I was!

The battlefields were vast!
Weather was spectacular!
And most importantly the enemy was cunning and intelligent.

I miss....

..the AI just....running away (though that happened to a lesser extent in M:TW)

...the weather.....why was fog so thick you couldn't see the hand infront of your face taken away from us with the other games. Where is the Thunder and Lightening? The driving rain or the deep, deep snow??

I had hoped that the best bits from Shogun would re-appear in Rome and was disappointed. I will never understand why the best bits of both Shogun and Medieval never made it to Rome.

Why wasn't Rome just a graphically enhanced Shogun with Medieval scale??

Shogun was small and personal and I certainly miss the music - though personally I always felt THE best music was in Medieval (how many computer games would you run on a PC....in the background....just so you could have an evening of just listening to the soundtrack on the campaign map?!?)

Turn system....perfect
Ai......perfect
Atmosphere....perfect

Why was it not just made MORE perfect by adding 3D graphics I will never know. :embarassed:

How upset I am that my PC will no longer run Shogun OR Medieval for some unknown reason?

The words fail me.....:wall:

Nope, unfortunately none of the versions of shogun gave you the option of executing the emissary, though it was much requested.

There is a hidden geisha video that's never played in the game though. It's pretty cool.

I noticed this thread while idly scrolling down and thought...good grief, it was one of the few games I had on my PC that I used to play again and again even after completing it with every clan. I agree with everything everyone's already said, but I particularly miss the movies, the way the AI really could hand you your head when it wanted to, and the less 'Bill Gates' style of economy...every koku counts, instead of MTW where you're so rich it's silly, long before the end of the game.
But most of all I miss...
'My lord, your enemy's taisho fears for his life! He is running like a whipped dog!'

And that movie where the assassin gets to chop the geisha had me cheering every time...phew, saved the clan again.

(ps, Martok...how could you?Are you so easily seduced by the lure of cheap fake-half-timbered castles with 'Dunroamin' written on the front? Play a proper clan, like the Takeda :grin: )

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Nope, unfortunately none of the versions of shogun gave you the option of executing the emissary, though it was much requested.

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Weird; I honestly could've sworn that was in the original game. :inquisitive: (It's a pity it wasn't, but I'm not complaining!) Guess my memory's getting foggy in my old age. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

There is a hidden geisha video that's never played in the game though. It's pretty cool.

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No kidding; what is it of? (I'm guessing I can find it in the video files, yes?)

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

I agree with everything everyone's already said, but I particularly miss the movies, the way the AI really could hand you your head when it wanted to, and the less 'Bill Gates' style of economy...every koku counts, instead of MTW where you're so rich it's silly, long before the end of the game.

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Yeah, that's another good point. I liked that you really had to budget your money carefully, and invest your koku where it would do the most good. I rarely saw the "runaway ecomony" phenomenon, even when I was huge.

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

(ps, Martok...how could you?Are you so easily seduced by the lure of cheap fake-half-timbered castles with 'Dunroamin' written on the front?

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Yes. ~;p (Mmm, fake timber.....)

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

Play a proper clan, like the Takeda :grin: )

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Bah; I eat Takeda heads for breakfast!

Well okay, not really; I'm usually more in the mood for them in the evenings. They're great with a little garlic salt. ~D

Martok, here it is:

Shogun Main Folder > 'Evanims' folder > the movie file 'Geisha7'

:2thumbsup:

:bow:

I think you could kill an emissary, but only if they were Christian and you weren't.

Like Simon, I read all the hype over the game on the old usenet forums. I'd been tracking it since it was first announced as Taisho: Total War, and seeing all the americans going nuts over the game convinced me (they got it a week earlier). I took a half-shift at work and bought Shogun on its day of release ~:)

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Originally Posted by Martok

Bah; I eat Takeda heads for breakfast!

Well okay, not really; I'm usually more in the mood for them in the evenings. They're great with a little garlic salt. ~D

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:laugh4: :laugh4:
reminds me of that bit in the Samurai Sourcebook where they go on about taking heads and head-counting ceremonies...a must-have book for all STW fans.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samurai-Sour...e=UTF8&s=books
Ahhh, might crank up the ol' STW again if it works, it's been ages since I defended Shinano for the 15th consecutive season against four other clans using only my daimyo, five battered ashigaru and nine knackered samurai archers...

They featured the head counting ceremony very nicely in Shogun:

https://img176.imageshack.us/img176/...ictorybki9.gif

:grin:

:2thumbsup:

'My Lord! Your warriors have taken the life of your enemy, and your victory has been brought closer!'

Did anyone rate the Warlord Edition Samurai vs. Mongols campaign much? Or is it all Sengoku Jidai for you guys? I'm a SJ fan only really...

Thank you, Drisos. :bow:

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

:laugh4: :laugh4:
reminds me of that bit in the Samurai Sourcebook where they go on about taking heads and head-counting ceremonies...a must-have book for all STW fans.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samurai-Sour...e=UTF8&s=books

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Looks interesting. Now I just have to see if I can find it on Amazon's U.S. site!

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

Ahhh, might crank up the ol' STW again if it works, it's been ages since I defended Shinano for the 15th consecutive season against four other clans using only my daimyo, five battered ashigaru and nine knackered samurai archers...

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Egad, I hate defending Shinano! In my current Hojo campaign, I've been just sitting there letting Imagawa occupy the province, even though I could crush him--I successfully blitzed & destroyed Uesugi, and now own 6 of the richest provinces in the game--just because it's so darn hard to hold onto with everyone gunning for it.

Shinano will be mine eventually, but first I must go crush the Takeda dogs. ~D

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

Did anyone rate the Warlord Edition Samurai vs. Mongols campaign much? Or is it all Sengoku Jidai for you guys? I'm a SJ fan only really...

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I play just the Sengoku Jidai period as well. The Mongol Invasion campaign is interesting in theory, but in actuality I found it somewhat lacking.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Egad, I hate defending Shinano!

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I know but that +1 cavalry bonus is so tempting! :sweatdrop:

And the Shinano battle map - it is so beautiful! And defensible - there's a convenient little sunken plateau on some heights to the rear east of the map. The enemy can tire themselves marching there. The ridge line is something of a right angle but just right for about 3 archers and accompanying foot. The sunken plateau can hide your cavalry to hopefully surprise the enemy in a counterattack. An excellent position - but the Shinano map still becomes a virtual Verdun as the Hojo horde and others bleed my men to death there. :skull:

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Originally Posted by econ21

I know but that +1 cavalry bonus is so tempting! :sweatdrop:

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Eh. Imagawa won't be able to hold onto it long enough to take advantage of it anyway. ~;)

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Originally Posted by econ21

And the Shinano battle map - it is so beautiful! And defensible - there's a convenient little sunken plateau on some heights to the rear east of the map. The enemy can tire themselves marching there. The ridge line is something of a right angle but just right for about 3 archers and accompanying foot. The sunken plateau can hide your cavalry to hopefully surprise the enemy in a counterattack. An excellent position - but the Shinano map still becomes a virtual Verdun as the Hojo horde and others bleed my men to death there. :skull:

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Your last sentence highlights exactly why I'm reluctant to move in and take it. It doesn't matter how defensible Shinano is--unless I'm desperate, I don't conquer that province until I know I can hold it. With Takeda still hanging around my western border, I at least have to eliminate him as a threat first.

I like having Shinano and being attacked there. I could always kill many hundreds of enemies with very few losses, which made attacking a lot easier. (The Imagawa almost sent their entire armies into death in an attack on shinano.. over and over.. :laugh4: )

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Originally Posted by Drisos

I like having Shinano and being attacked there. I could always kill many hundreds of enemies with very few losses, which made attacking a lot easier. (The Imagawa almost sent their entire armies into death in an attack on shinano.. over and over.. :laugh4: )

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I agree, inevitably you can lure the enemy daimyo into battle there and then take his head! I once kept a Shogun 'diary' with the Uesegi for a while, and all it said every year was stuff like -
'Defended Shinano vs. Imagawa/Takeda, took 1,236 heads, lost <100 men, killed enemy Daimyo's latest heir...oh, and ran out of money again'
There's more than one good deployment position to defend that map, I'd say there's three...the obvious one on the left centre, the secondary one on the right that Drisos mentions, and the ridge right at the back if you're desperate, which is where the AI usually deploys when it's defending. I did use to hate attacking Shikoku though, some of the eastern provinces there are nasty to assault.
My worst and most embarrassing battlefield experiences, however, usually happened in Kaga vs. the northern warrior monks...!

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

I agree, inevitably you can lure the enemy daimyo into battle there and then take his head! I once kept a Shogun 'diary' with the Uesegi for a while, and all it said every year was stuff like -
'Defended Shinano vs. Imagawa/Takeda, took 1,236 heads, lost <100 men, killed enemy Daimyo's latest heir...oh, and ran out of money again'
There's more than one good deployment position to defend that map, I'd say there's three...the obvious one on the left centre, the secondary one on the right that Drisos mentions, and the ridge right at the back if you're desperate, which is where the AI usually deploys when it's defending.

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I've been able to incorporate all 60 of the original STW maps into the STWmod campaign for MTW/VI using the original ground textures, and new Japanese model pack developed by Barocca. These maps are virtually identical to the original maps. The weather effects in MTW/VI are not as good as they were in STW, but it's compensated by challenging battles. Although maps are grouped according to border type rather than provinces, I did get battles on Shinano 3 out of 4 times when Shinano was attacked in a test campaign. The attacker/defender positions are apparently determined by the orientation of the border over which the attack is made and in these battles I was at the bottom of the map, but still had a good defensive position on the left side. Since there are many more clans represented in STWmod, two of those three attacks were by two allied enemy armies. Unlike RTW, the two enemy allied armies worked together attacking me simultaneously. I was typically outnumberrd by 2 to 1 and in defending 3 times, I won, but only by about 3 to 1 odds despite a good defensive position. In no case was I able to kill the enemy tashio because he's less suicidal in MTW/VI and the hatamoto is slightly better and not as slow as standard heavy cav.

The game does have a crossbow unit that goes away once you can make guns, and it has kensai, battlefield ninja and naginata cavalry. The unit stats are virtually identical to original STW with an adjustment to cavalry charge and archer ammo to compensate for changes in the battle engine between STW and MTW to bring the gameplay closer to original STW. Guns have less, but still adequate ammo. Unfortunately, there are no seasons.

If you want to try this mod, wait for beta 8 which should be out soon. The maps are not right in beta 7.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I know but that +1 cavalry bonus is so tempting! :sweatdrop:

And the Shinano battle map - it is so beautiful! And defensible - there's a convenient little sunken plateau on some heights to the rear east of the map. The enemy can tire themselves marching there. The ridge line is something of a right angle but just right for about 3 archers and accompanying foot. The sunken plateau can hide your cavalry to hopefully surprise the enemy in a counterattack. An excellent position - but the Shinano map still becomes a virtual Verdun as the Hojo horde and others bleed my men to death there. :skull:

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Ahhhh, shinano is glorious for defending. I like the steep ridge up front on the left. With archers up there the enemy usually starts with a couple units in range, you can destroy them as the march up the hill. Since you start at such an angle when the AI wheels its army the left flank gets caught on the cliff (mostly archers usually). I like to route the infantry with cavalry sent of to the left, then charge my infantry around so they are between the archers and their route point. My cavalry I've kept in reserve at the back of my map route the archers who get slaughtered by my infantry while trying to flee. It's b e a utiful.

Including the things mentioned before, STW was the first of its kind. Plus I liked the foggy atmosphere and the music. Another thing was that it was about a culture that I wasn't very familiar with, so it was a very new thing for me.

Warlord Edition or Mongol Invasion would've been better if the Mongol side had more variety of army units. The Chinese and Korean military (or maybe most of them) really didn't dress like they did in the game. The Korean uniforms in the game were actually Mongol uniforms.

This discussion of terrain and Shinano makes me think of yet another general area: connection with the landscape.

At the time I was playing, I was occasionally annoyed with the two-landscapes-per-province phenomenon (if there was a river). However, with discussions like this and hindsight being what it is, that is yet another interesting connection to the game.

I don't think anyone can develop a love for dynamically generated landscape unless the dynamics create exactly the same place reliably. Otherwise we can't all mention the defensible ridge to the left, or the hidden plateau, at specific spots, since each map grid will be slightly or wildly different.

edit: plus, this thread made me dig out my Shogun disk case and realise I'm missing disk 1! Ack, time to hit Amazon.

yup I hope the sec. jidai of RTW will bring a bit of the exelence athmosphere of STW back to the game.

The games after STW look all a bit not-ready for me, like EA wanted to save some money, if there would be not so many good mods (pike&muskets, NTW on MTW, a lot more in the making of RTW)I had never bought the MTW and RTW!

Seems to me like the 'new'-standart:, software only finish one good game, after that they come up with half-ready stuff and let the usermods finish it.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

...birds circling over a forest to hint at the presence of an ambush...

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I saw the birds, but never put two and two together... ~:doh:

I shall have to bear that in mind as I start playing through for the second time; my first game was Shimazu, and by the time I got to Shinano everything was pretty much sewn up (I'd assassinated all the other daimyo and was busy bribing all the ronin to join me). I spent a lot of time defending the province where the Emperor's palace is located, after sending an emissary to bribe the ronin in charge of that region... :2thumbsup:

My first game was Shimazu too. By the time I reached Shinano, I already outumbered the Hojo. The Hojo was reluctant to attack me after I enflicted heavy losses on them in one battle.

I find Shinano easy to defend. You don't even have to deploy at the way back of the map. You could just make an ambush from the mountains at the left and right at the beginning of the battle. Since the cliffs on both mountains prevent any movement there, you would have to attack parallel to the cliffs. Once your down the mountain, you'd be attacking the enemy on both sides because the AI always starts at the center back. The map is a good place for a defender to rush in.

In my early stages of the campaign, I usually defended my provinces with few armies in order to attack enemy provinces with more armies. My basic defending army was 2 units of archers, 1 ashigaru unit, and 1 cavalry unit. I used the cavalry to flank and then chase the fleeing enemy. Since I was outnumbered by at least 2 to 1 (and this wasn't multi), I camped on a steep slope. It's highly effective when you could kill many with few of your men.

So which areas are MTW better at than STW, other than graphics, they ain't important.

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Originally Posted by blahblahblah

So which areas are MTW better at than STW, other than graphics, they ain't important.

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Shogun is a very focused game, MTW is a very 'broad' game: it offers (more) different civilizations, more regions, more units, more upgrades and generally just more.

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Originally Posted by blahblahblah

So which areas are MTW better at than STW, other than graphics, they ain't important.

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As Doc Bean said, the main advantage of MTW over STW is scale and variety. Plus I find the STW campaign a little too gruelling - it's literally total war, less or no scope for building, turtling, diplomacy, crusading, glorious achievements etc. And I really don't like the STW bridge battles (they are more avoidable in MTW) and the Hojo horde. Kamikaze generals were also more of a problem in STW - it was not uncommon to find you've destroyed all your neighbouring factions due to decapitation - conquering a rebel Japan is just dull. On the plus side you do get nice sad poems when it happens.

Addendum: I originally wrote the following because I thought you asked in which areas STW was better than MTW:

Some multiplayer gamers, e.g. Puzz3D, seem to prefer the STW setting because it is more balanced: there are fewer units so they can be more easily baalnced and all sides have the same unit roster.

In terms of the single player game, STW is better in terms of immerison and chrome. The movies, the voice acting, the feel of it is just more engaging. MTW has less personality and had less work put into these areas - MTW even kept the units shouting a Japanese "hi!" when you pull them out of an army stack.

The SP STW campaign is also much more challenging, IMO. The strategic AI cheats more by anticipating your simultaneous moves. The economy is much tighter. The AI does a better job of teching up than the early MTW AI (you will not face massed peasants - more likely massed upgraded high tech troops when you hit the Hojo horde). The map is much more claustrophobic and so you are more forced into conflict.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Shogun is a very focused game, MTW is a very 'broad' game: it offers (more) different civilizations, more regions, more units, more upgrades and generally just more.

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More isn't necessarily better.

As I see it:

STW Pros (vs MTW):

-Atmosphere

-Ambience

-Better definition of the spears/swords/cav system

-More difficult campaigns

-Better balanced battles

Cons:

-No V&Vs for generals

-No statistics apart from command for generals

-Hojo Horde effect (one faction dominates central and/or eastern Japan, leaving you, if you're playing as one of the western factions, facing a huge opponent, or lots of rebels.)

-Geishas

-Suicide Daimyos(sp?)

-Small unit roster


Personally none of the cons for STW really bother me. For me it was and still is the original and best Total War game, that has yet to be entirely surpassed. Sometimes a huge range of hundreds of different units is not needed, and detracts from the gameplay. STW was all about strategy, with the underlying Sun Tzu thing. With MTW there are units that upset the balance. There is also this culture of building up a certain 'uber unit' and just fielding it exclusively using bumrush tactics. STW didn't really allow for this style of play. I've often read threads about MTW MP and seen remarks about not using any spear type troops at all. This indicates a serious inbalance and shouldn't be happening.

I also feel that STW was better before MI. The Kensai and Battlefiled Ninja (complete with cloaking devices, since ressurected as 'hashishin' in MTW {And guess what? it looks likely that something similar may emerge in M2TW in the form of "Battlefield Assassins".}) feel a bit 'kiddy'. The mongol campaign was also lacking. A pity the developers didn't allow the mongols to construct buildings this would have made the campaign at least half worthwhile playing.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

More isn't necessarily better.

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I said STW was more focused, that's a big plus :shrug:

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

I said STW was more focused, that's a big plus :shrug:

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I agree, and if the focus had been maintained, the series would have been better. The strategic and tactical importance of the weather system and the seasonal economics was eliminated in MTW so that the game could have a bigger tech tree by covering a longer time period. I think original STW demonstrated that you could successfully impliment a satisfactory tech tree over a shorter timespan. Now, because it's been deemed that 450 turn campaigns are too long, there is the additional distortion of character aging by the decision to go to 225 turns and still cover 450 years. Where does this development path end? Will each turn eventually cover 10 years so the game can have a tech tree spanning 1000 years?

CA had, in the Total War system, the potential to model many specific 80 to 100 year time periods keeping seasonal turns and strategic importance of weather in the game with realistic character aging. Each period could have been a saleable add-on emphasising the weapons, economic and political systems of the period. The potential was immense, but now what they've done is put themselves into a situation where they have to come up with huge expanses of history for each version of the game which means longer development time. That then requires that they capture a massive customer base and all the compromises to gameplay that implies which we now see in the Total War series. I know they made the Alexander add-on to RTW, but the system now no longer fits a short timespan.

From a multiplayer perspective, the large number of units and factions is a disaster. It's not possible to balance the game within the developmental timeframe. From a single player perspective, the game has become too complex for the AI to handle. In STW, the AI could handle most situations because the game was simpler. I remember playing a game called Lords of Conquest. You had to conquer a random map. As I recall, there were three resources: gold, iron and wood you could accumulate to build three things: a weapon, a horse or a boat. The weapon was stronger than the horse, but the horse could move two provinces in a turn while the weapon could only move one province, but you could put a weapon on a horse. You could also put a horse or weapon on a boat and sail to a province. The game was simple, but the interaction between these few elements was complex, and the AI was very good. As a result, the game was very challenging. You had an option to set the amount of uncertainty in the combat in several steps ranging from completely deterministic to highly uncertain.

That was the good thing about Sengoku Jidai; it all happened on one island, inhabited by one culture. If you move to medieval Europe there would have been plenty of conflicts upon which CA could have remained focus; Wars of the Roses, Hundred Years War, Burgundian Wars, Reconquisita (?), Crusades, etc. Viking Invasion was a good move, but it was suffering from using an engine not tailored for the period.

Countless games cover WW2, a period of just a couple of years. But when a game covers the European medieval times they usually try to cover the whole period with all its conflicts and cultures. CA has gone now even further by also including the discovery of America.

I tried to keep my mods focused on small periods, but there are loads of modders (and of course players) who see more as better and the most as best. The number one modding question for M2:TW is wether the faction limit is higher or gone.


Anyway, this thread was a good read, thanks for the memories :bow:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

For me, it was that intro video for the old .com site. Some guy giving a speech about how his father had carried the sword in peace and now he carried it in war. Gave me chills. And then there were those nift animations of the No-dachi the CA and the arq.

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http://web.archive.org/web/199910030....totalwar.org/

is the Wayback Machine link to tw.org of Sep '99, with many links still functional, including posts on the old Echelon forum - sadly, the link to that intro video didn't make it. I'll keep looking... somebody, somewhere has it.

I too remember with fondness staying up almost all night playing Shogun MP with fans from around the world - then going to work and pleading for a short day so I could return to 'Japan' and my new-found friends. That's the time when I first invested in PC headphones, so as to not wake Mrs. Kukri (again!) with the "...whipped dog!" speech. :)

Very funny... I just woke up from a half hour of browsing that site. Thanks Kukri, that's amazing to see after a long time gone. I'd be interested to know who is who from those old boards to here.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

More isn't necessarily better.

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I fully agree about that. After having played Rome and Shogun. Shogun 'had' enough, and 'having more' doesn't really make Rome 'better'.

Totally ontopic, I can't think of anything that isn't already said. It's just the coolest game I ever played. ~:) Nice posts, people. :bow:

I agree with the "more isn't necessarily better" as it pertains to the battles in the TW series. I do think that the strategic part of the STW single player campaign needed "more" to make that aspect of the game more exciting. The battles were brilliant but the campaign needed more depth. I think the popularity of STW MP as compared to SP attests to that.

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Originally Posted by blahblahblah

So which areas are MTW better at than STW, other than graphics, they ain't important.

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If you ask me (in terms of single player), just two:

-capture/ransom.
-reinforcement system.

there were some very minor improvements such as:
-ships (more of a detriment to the AI really).
-titles (borderline cosmetic).
-unit variety:
(they just stuck in new weapon unto units....)
peasant with shield = spear
peasant with polearm = urban militia
peasant with sword = gallowglasses
etc. etc....


Never played Glorious Achievement, though. One hundred years on normal pace gets 60 provinces and any province can be teched as high as possible.

Princesses were just free spies really.

Siege engine? Just use spearmen. Charge-halt, charge-halt and gates are broken in a snap. (Although catapults are great in the open-field defense).

Mostly I agree, Quietus, but princesses can also be married off to disloyal generals, my main use for them...obviously this was not a feature nor a problem in STW, where all generals were loyal until bribed.

I would have liked a basic naval feature in STW, if just to prevent the AI (and particularly Shimazu) from launching silly attacks via the sea routes against (usually) provinces in central Japan, and also because there were significant naval battles in pre-modern Japanese history (although not often during the SJ period, I admit). The chance to command or hire a 'John Blackthorne/William Adams' would be quite good fun!